The difference between Dorsal Stripe & Countershading is

[JennLM]

A dorsal stripe would only be that if there were dun factor?

Is countershading incomplete dun factor?

Del just had one pop up this week out of nowhere so it made me wonder.

[PasoVicki]

Terry and MGs need to pop in here with information. They seem to understand all of these things pretty well.

From what I've read, you have to make a distinction between a horse with "dun markings" and a horse with a "dun gene." Not all horses with dun markings have a dun gene.

Someone here mentioned that the general rule is that 3 separate dun markings would indicate a genetic dun. (Three separate dun markings might be a dorsal, leg barring and ear stripes . . . or a dorsal, leg barring and facial markings.)

[JennLM]

Another question on color.

Del's legs (and some on his hend quarters) had gold on them. It turned to black.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/JennLM/Delgado/Legs1.jpg

Could he have 3way coloring? His grandsire (sires sire) was a pinto:
http://www.thecaprichofamily.com/about.html
http://www.thecaprichofamily.com/images/Capricho-in-Jax.jpg


His sire was black:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/JennLM/Delgado/DelgadosSire2.jpg

Since he now has dapples it means he carries a soot gene as well?

His dam was Cremello.

[Pasogirlz]

Counter shading on my bucksin.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/pasogirlz/DSC03713.jpg

[Mellifluous]

My take:

dorsal stripe = dun - must be DEFINED like it is drawn with a marker.

no dorsal stripe/countershading = not dun

KISS = it is dun or it is not, forget the dun factor, etc.

[Candice Burger]

Counter shading is kind've fuzzy on the edges. It's not like a very well defined line. Counter shading may tend to "fade" in and out along the line as well. I've got some horses with dorsal counter shading that start near the withers but fades as it goes towards the tail or appears about midway in the back to the tail.

Same with counter shading on the withers. It's not very distinctive, more like dark smudges.

[motorgypsy]

Many horses have a dorsal stripe - Chinook is not a dun and she has a very thin black dorsal stripe only visible in the summer. Dun affects the entire coat color as well as adding stripes. If you don't see leg bars, have seen the parents and neither is a dun (forget body color, look for those stripes all over the place) it's not a dun as far as any registry is concerned.

But of course like everything you have in betweeners with enough markings to at least make you wonder and perhaps a dun parent like our Adriel whose color "just ain't right for bay". Until they have a test for the dun gene OR until they throw an obvious dun foal from a nondun other parent you just speculate and wait for the evidence.

It is also obvious that there is something else that will reduce the contrast between the dun markings and the body and the stripes. Someone posted that if the contrast is minimal it isn't a dun. That may be true with a registry but if the foal has a dun parent and has stripes, even if they are dark red on a bay dun rather than black, I'd still call it a dun myself.

Now the pinto looks to me like it's a bright red bay and white pinto rather than a chestnut and white. The DNA test for red will tell for sure and it only costs $25 from one of the DNA test facilities.

[Terry Wallace]

Jenn..it doesn't look black...it looks chocolate...it is likely smutt factor.

[JennLM]

Terry, I ripped out some hairs yesterday and it does look dark brown. But it's a huge area now. He is tri colored. Which has to do with the Pinto in his blood correct?

It is countershading not a dorsal stripe on Del. Not defined but blurry looking and wide.

I hope he does keep this color, but it was sure a huge surprise from his color when he arrived. Ok he looks like a whole different horse.

[motorgypsy]

or buckskin rather than palomino?? Can't tell from the pictures which is which from the legs. We do have a brown pointed buckskin colored dun so there are brown points - not common though. Palominos can have some black but that seems to be too much for palomino.

On the other hand our liver chestnut's legs are really really dark and could perhaps look black in a photo. Her dad is also black. But it's obvious her points are not black like your photo shows.

[JennLM]

No black points on the body. This is when he got here in Jan or Feb (sheesh I cannot remember) and a few weeks ago.

Nothing Dun on him. No bars, points or dorsal.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/JennLM/Delgado/Delgado001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/JennLM/Delgado/060707/Del060707015.jpg

Someone mentioned before it was spotting that turned that color. This is way more then a couple spots here and there. The hair was gold which is now dark brown. Not skin.

Hmm looking at Zen in the Palomino thread, I see a very dark section same place Del's started. Maybe sooty/smutt gone loco?

[motorgypsy]

I've seen some pictures of some REALLY sooty palominos and rode with a sooty buckskin that was nearly black so sooty can really go wild so to speak. You know just totally speculating I bet there is a/some gene/s that are "reverse sooty" meaning that they lighten rather than darken the existing color but not on the entire horse. I bet some of that is diet. One year Chinook got really dark gold dapple and the next year she was back to normal???

[JennLM]

Unsure what he was eating before he got here. But he was switched to Oat/Alfalfa and Bamboo, a stalk or 2 a day.

I like all his dapples now. Just was a complete curprise yanno? We saw him before he got his winter coat then he had the same color light winter coat, then light as he shed them BOOM each week he changes.

[CarolU]

I agree with Terry, that is just sooty expressing itself.

If Tami weren't so $%^$ busy, she has a pinto dun colt that shows you what they look like when both are expressed togeter...but pinto has distinct spots, not just areas with a different color hair. The horse that Shelley rides with often is a palamino pinto.

[Barbwire]

Hang onnna second, did you say you fed bamboo? :shock:

[Terry Wallace]

That is smutt gene expression. He is not "pinto", he is not "tri-colored" as he is not pinto.......he is now expressing smut gene...it may stay from year to year or it may go away entirely.

This is very commong to happen at year three on a palomino.... his being very pale when you got him is typical. He may get darker every year, or he may go back to being pale. Dapples express that he is in good health...not so when you got him. Now he is putting excess calories into coat changes also.

[motorgypsy]

Dapples are interesting. I suspect there is a "dapple" gene/s because some horses really don't have them and they are quite healthy. Some foods seem to bring them out. Our stallion for example comes from a line on the bottom side with no dapples but his top side has them. So he just has small lighter spots. Brilliant shows no dappling. His dad has the lighter spots and mom shows no dappling. Chinook's mom has no dappling but dad's are obvious. She only gets them from some foods. And some dappling shows no color difference but at the right angle you can still see it. Now that I think about it I don't recall seeing a lot of dappling on PPR horses???? Anyone else notice that? Although our pure Colombian dun mare has no dapples. But I don't think it's a dun thing not to because Sultan has the light areas and he's as dun as you get.

[JennLM]

Yes Barb, a safe bamboo. They do awesome on it as a supplement. Unsure how it affects them but as you can see has done great things for Del.

I hope he stays this color. It's just so eye catching.

Nice to know it's just the soot gene. Though it turned that color on the exact places he was darker gold when he came here.

I think I get what Terry is saying, if they have the smut/sooty gene and are healthy, they will express it.

I found a great sight which explains th Dun dorsal:
http://www.duncentralstation.com/WhatsDunIsDun.html

They have lots of pages with lots of info.

[Terry Wallace]

Want dapples? Feed alfalfa!

All my horses have dapples....except one bay.

Jenn..when you got Delgado he was really ribby and this was reflected in the paleness of his coat as well. Are you feeding any paprika to him? if not...you might be able to darken his coat by doing so.

[JennLM]

We had plans for Paprika and when he started getting darker I think we nixxed the idea. Though it would be neat to see how dark he would get hmm.

OK I forgot how much to give.

Though TJ has not gotten any dapples, but he is PPR. Are there dappled PPRs?

[Rusel]

A cup a day of corn meal mixed in with his feed will also darken a palomino coat and add dapples.... not just corn but corn meal,,, it digests and is actually used in the system instead of passing thru...

[motorgypsy]

Interesting website. I've found several secondary sources that say a French research group found two different patterns that produce bay and black bay at the agouti locus but I have not been able to document that and I found the abstract of the original article which seems to indicate that they did not find any difference. If anyone can find the original article from the French group I'd love to read it.

As far as countershading being any indicator of health - I've not seen any research that indicated that this is true. The intensities of countershading, dapples and coat color in general are very food dependent. Just like in the zoo flamingos have to be fed something like shrimp to keep their normal pink color, horses also will respond to different feeds by becoming more intensely colored or more pale.

Zoos feed a number of animals supplements to help their animals keep their normal color so it's not "cheating" to feed paprika in the sense that it is a sweet pepper plant. You have to be aware though that it will cause your horse to test positive on a drug test of some kind. Or perhaps it was because it tested positive for something else - I honestly can't remember but I do remember you have to stop the paprika several weeks before a show to be sure the horse doesn't test positive for some drug that paprika will give a false positive for. Weird huh!!