Pasture Pet

[pasolucy]

This mare is probably going to be a pasture pet for most of the summer but I still want her feet taken care of. This is not a new trim, but it is not 8 weeks old either. What should be done different, what is done correct

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/pasolucy/Hoof%20Care/HOOFCARE2/IMG_0650.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/pasolucy/Hoof%20Care/HOOFCARE2/IMG_0649.jpg

Right Rear
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/pasolucy/Hoof%20Care/HOOFCARE2/RR48.jpg
Right Fronthttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/pasolucy/Hoof%20Care/HOOFCARE2/RF46.jpg

Left Rearhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/pasolucy/Hoof%20Care/HOOFCARE2/LR44.jpg

Left Front

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/pasolucy/Hoof%20Care/HOOFCARE2/LF43.jpg

[appyday]

I have ridden alot worse then that.. :lol: Mine looked like that after 2 weeks with my new equine barefoot guy..he came and did 9 horses free today because I was so unhappy...I like a nice tight neat foot and I have mine on a 5 week schedule..that is not too much to ask..

[Terry Wallace]

Can you post a side shot of her FRONT feet? Her heel bulbs are uneven, she looks axis-broken-forward....but need a side shot to confirm.
If she is axis forward, she will need her heels taken down a bit.

Her REAR feet look like they may be the opposite...axis-broken-back, need a side shot of them to confirm. Toe too long. Heel bulbs uneven here too...(one side farther back than the other)

[TrueStepPaso]

Not to jump to conclusions or anything, but those hooves look like they've had a touch of laminitis....those growth/fever rings are very prominent, and her soles look dropped.

Is she sound....short strided?

First of all, her white line is separated & the bottom section of the hoof wall is no longer supporting her. That wall needs to be taken in to the white line for a little while....she's walking on her soles anyway, so it's not gonna make a daamned of a difference to leave it. If you leave it it's just causing more unwanted leverage, which will inhibit her from growing in a nice healthy, tight whiteline.
I would'nt remove any sole right now...she needs all the protection she can get.....and I'd also barely touch her heels for the first few trims (unless they are growing "under" her) because you want her to land comfortably on her heels at all times. If you bother her heels, then she'll be landing toe first on a dropped sole, and will cause MUCH pain for this mare.

[Terry Wallace]

All the rings on all four feet look like regular growth rings to me...BUT....a side shot would tell for sure! Do the rings get wider at the heel or stay symmetrical all the way around the hoof?

[pasolucy]

Sorry, no more pictures of this gal barefoot for a while. I took the pictures and posted them while I was waiting for the farrier to do another horse. When he got here the other horse was fine, a friend called and wanted to go for a ride so I had shoes put on the mare. some of your questions answered, yes she is very sound and not short strided at all , she has an overstep, is very smooth, not tender footed.
the rings do not get wider at the heel but stay symmetrical all the way around the hoof.

I have another barefoot mare that I will try to get pictures of later on, right now I have to drive over 500 miles to pick up husband that is broke down on the road.

[TrueStepPaso]

Interesting.....in all the hooves I've trimmed, I've yet to see "normal" growth rings like that...

[TrueStepPaso]

Also, just because the growth rings may be wider at the heel, does NOT mean it's THE tell all sign of laminitis....the first rule of reading hooves is there are no rules. Every horse/hoof responds differently.

[Terry Wallace]

Care to explain what you think is abnormal about these growth rings?

They look totally normal to me...both front and rear.

If the rings were touching each other at the toe and very wide at the rear...you can bet that would be a probable sign of laminitis....

But then....her soles don't look "dropped" to me either.

Pasolucy....WHAT did the farrier say about your horse....?
That it had dropped soles?
That it had toe separation from laminitis?

I figured she was sound...I see no reason not to think she would not be...
JMO

[TrueStepPaso]

Are you serious, Terry.....that really concerns me that you think hooves should look like that.

I also find it a bit horrifying that you'd need me to explain to YOU what the differences are between healthy hooves & unhealthy hooves..... :-? Aren't you already supposed to know something as basic as that...?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out those hooves have been through a diet change, sudden increase in fructan levels in the grass, a sickness, a reaction to something that has caused an upset to the laminae.....heck, for all I know, there could be a neighbor that feeds the horse glazed doughnuts every morning (oh, it happens...I've SEEN it)......but the point is, Terry, that hooves don't just grow prominent RINGS on them for absolutely no good reason. I'd be hard pressed to go out and find one to take pictures of this afternoon. If you can't say the same, then the horses YOU'RE seeing CLEARLY have issues that need to be resolved.
BTW, I have news for you....toe separation is not the only way to diagnose laminitis.....shocker, I know.

One more thing...if you can't see that the soles are flat (NO concavity) and are the primary weight bearing source for this horse (minus the LR which is overgrown on the entire hoofwall & is chipping/cracking at the quarters because of it), then you may want to take another peak. I saw it on my first looksie, but, then again...they are just pictures....that never tell the FULL story.

Is there anything else you want to whine to Lucy's farrier about to keep this going for your sake, or are you done?

[Terry Wallace]

Abbie...kindly work on your anger control please.

[/quote]that really concerns me that you think hooves should look like that.
Nope...I didn't say that at all...I said they looked like normal growth rings...I did not say "hooves should look like that"....
I said...it LOOKS NORMAL to me on that horse...

I also find it a bit horrifying that you'd need me to explain to YOU what the differences are between healthy hooves & unhealthy hooves..... Aren't you already supposed to know something as basic as that...?

Surely you gest! I don't need YOU to explain a thing to me! I thought it might be good of you to explain to Paso Lucy just exactly what it is you *think* you see...since you have indeed jumped to conclusions and possibly caused PL some alarm over your "internet diagnosis".

.but the point is, Terry, that hooves don't just grow prominent RINGS on them for absolutely no good reason.

Abbie... most hooves do in fact have growth rings you can see, some are more prominent than others. Thats a fact.



One more thing...if you can't see that the soles are flat (NO concavity)

Abbie...I DO in fact see concavity on every sole pictured...acceptable concavity. Yes ma'am...every sole pictured has concavity.



Is there anything else you want to whine to Lucy's farrier about to keep this going for your sake, or are you done?
Speaking of being DONE... Would you please stop with the personal attacks... I cannot believe a one-sentance question caused this personal attack response from you.

PS..yep, I have pics of growth rings...NORMAL growth rings...

[quote]I have news for you....toe separation is not the only way to diagnose laminitis.....shocker, I know
And so where did I say laminitis is only diagnosed via toe separation? Apparently you think I have not trimmed or shod laminitic horses back to health...Um...that would be false! I'm well aquainted with laminitis.

Perhaps some anger control management would be helpful for you....or perhaps you should allow opinions other than yours without getting upset???

JMO...

[TrueStepPaso]

Terry....you're funny. :lol: ;-)

[Pasogirlz]

I don't think anything is that funny here. :-? :twisted:

[TrueStepPaso]

No..you're right...that's "slander".

[Pasogirlz]

No one said slander...just rude.... :roll: So cut it out. I'm sick of it.

[pasolucy]

OK. I really did not want to start an argument here. The farrier said the mare was fine, she was high on one side and there was a little sepeation but the mare has been barefoot for a year. You should know something about where I live. We have mud and rain from about Oct, Nov to May or June and then it dries out and gets very hard and very dry. In the spring the grass is extremely rich and I can only let the horses out for 2 hours a day. I feed very little hay in the winter, the pasture supports all of the horses, but in the spring when I lock them off of the pasture is when I use the most hay. The rings are not deep, almost every pasture horse in this area has the rings and none are foundered, mine or anybody elses. There are horses just down the road from me that they never keep off of the pasture and I wonder how they do stay sound. Yes her hooves are a little concave, but they are also shedding. I pulled some frog and hoof off with my fingers before I hosed off the hoof. That happens when our seasons change and we just got our hay off of the fields before it rained on June 26. So since June 26 it has gone from wet to hot and dry with no moisture in the field at all.

She should have been trimmed more often in the winter time and then her feet would not have any separtaion at the white line. She is very sound, she is not tender, she is not short strided. None of the growth rings on her are deep at all, the very top one on her hoof you can kind of feel, but the others barely or not at all. The time that the field would have been the richest around here would have been March through early June and then it gets over ripe and is not as dangerous to the horse.

[TrueStepPaso]

They are quite visible in the photos.....to me, there's nothing normal about those rings. Separation of the white line is a classic symptom of, at least, mild laminitis. Just because she missed a few trims would not separate her white line that easily. A healthy white is an impenetrable, unbelievably strong feature of the hoof....to separate that easily after a few missed trims in the winter would mean it was compromised PRIOR to that.....

Also, laminitis doesn't always mean "founder".

[pasolucy]

Again I will say that the mare is sound, she has shoes on now so there is no worry about the trim. I don't know where you are from but I do not find anything unusual about her growth rings. If you have very rich grass, drastic weather changes I believe that they are normal. If you do not that is ok, lets not fight about it. I wanted to know what to do differet, I now see that her heels were uneven as Terry pointed out. Advice would be more appreciated than just critisizing everything you see.
My farrier is not concerned at all, he is here and works with the horse so I will take his word that the horse is fine.

[Terry Wallace]

Pasolucy....here is something you might like to see regarding re-balancing heels. This came from an article titled "Anatomy of a Trim".
I can email you that if you like...just PM me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/unbalancedhooftrimmedtobalance.jpg

[TrueStepPaso]

Lucy....what I'm giving you IS advice. I don't need to live next to you to know that those rings aren't normal. Just because you've seen other horses in your area with those, doesn't mean that they are a sign of health.
Not to mention you've stated multiple times that there is "rich grass in your area that these horses are on. My advice would be to actually keep them completely OFF the rich grass until it's "burnt and died off", thus eliminating another cause to such irregular growth patterns in your horse's hooves.

Why else would post these photos, looking for advice? Surely they were not to show off a simple heel imbalance..?

[pasolucy]

OK Abbie I give up. You are not going to let anybody have a different opinion other than yours so just let it go at that.

[TrueStepPaso]

Ha! What the....? I was stating that I was giving you ADVICE, which apparently was advice YOU don't WANT to hear. I think that's where we are going wrong here. Also, in the picture above...the right side of the pictured hoof wasn't even trimmed yet (notice the dirt still there), and if you look closely, you can see the heel in the same spot that the next picture is exposing. Any normal trim would have already balanced those heels...it's not that difficult.

[pasolucy]

"I wouldn't remove any sole right now...she needs all the protection she can get.....and I'd also barely touch her heels for the first few trims (unless they are growing "under" her) because you want her to land comfortably on her heels at all times. If you bother her heels, then she'll be landing toe first on a dropped sole, and will cause MUCH pain for this mare"
"Why else would post these photos, looking for advice? Surely they were not to show off a simple heel imbalance..?
I was stating that I was giving you ADVICE, which apparently was advice YOU don't WANT to hear. I think that's where we are going wrong here."--------------------------------------------------------------

The above are quotes from Abbie. The mare is not lame, she does not have a dropped sole, she was not tender or in pain even on gravel when she was barefoot. Her feet were not perfect but are not in bad shape. As far as the advice goes, Abbie you could use some people skills. Just because I asked questions and am willing to learn more does not mean that I am a novice or have no knowledge at all. Some of the most skilled people that I know in every field are more than willing to ask advice and advance there knowledge. I think that your shouting at me using capital letters in childish and immature, what I have to say to you I am assuming that you have an I.Q. of over 60 and are able to understand without shouting or capital letters so no I am not inclined to take advice from you. I took this mare and another into the vet today for a preg check and asked him to look at her feet, told him what you said on the board and he disagrees with you as does my farrier. Before you start to tell me that I have a bad vet and a bad farrier, I am lucky enough to live less than 20 miles from a vet that people drive 6 hours to get their horses seen by him. My farrier of over 25 years retired, there was a farrier recommended by another vet in a near by town. I met the man and he comes to my town to do my horses and has been doing them for several years. I assume that you will still think that you can tell more from a picture than my vet, my farrier and myself can tell from actually working with the animals and seeing them but I will choose to take their advice and not yours.
You have accomplished on thing, I will not post any other pictures on this forum as I do not wish to put up with your "know more than anybody else" attitude and your anger issues when one does not bow down and tell you how correct you are.
If you know more than the vet and the farrier, and the owners you should go on the road and charge big bucks to give lectures to all of the above to impart your vast knowledge to them.

[Pasogirlz]

What can I say folks...it's all in the delivery.....

[TrueStepPaso]

Excuse me? The only reason I used capital letters is to emphasize the word so you see the importance of each sentence. Did ya see see any exclamation marks after those sentences??? Nope. But thanks for assuming that I'm an idiot and have mental problems....uh, I'm sorry, did you happen to meet me, or are you going on what someone said that I don't get along with. :roll:

I NEVER stated that this mare was lame...I wrote her soles look dropped, I asked if she was sound/short-strided...sheesh, I am SO sorry I gave you an opinion. An opinion I realize is based on a picture...I also stated that pictures never tell the FULL story, so I'm well aware that I may be wrong when trying to help someone. But you not only were quick to disagree, but you became (and still are) VERY defensive. I find it quite interesting that you regurgitated something someone else mentioned on the previous page....

I'm not really interested in what your vet and farrier had to say...I can see for myself that this mare has a good deal of seperation all the way around. Are you choosing to ignore that? I don't care for vets and farriers that blow off things like that like they aren't a big deal. Unhealthy hooves ARE a big deal, and its the owners responsiblilty to get wise to solutions. Vets and farriers aren't always the answer. I feel it's you who chooses not ot learn something here. Of course that mare needs to have balanced heels! Duh. But she needs enough heel to keep her comfortable...her RF's frog doesn't look that strong, which in turn prevents her from having a healthy digital cushion <---imperative to having a sound barefoot horse. LF...it's obvious her heels are imbalanced, her frog is a bit better here, but she's got separation all the way around...especially at the TOE. You can't maintain concavity (elevated sole) when the hoof wall is separated from the inner structures! But hey, good luck with that.

If I had listened to my vet & farrier(s)....**yes, that's plural - I had four different opinions after my farriers final diagnosis**.......then my perfectly healthy, sound Morgan would be six feet under. They told me to euthanize her after she rotated 10/15 degrees in the front hooves, and they couldn't do anything for her after trying for eight months. Good thing I listened to a 23 year old girl that year instead of my 40 yr old vet & 62 yr old farrier.

[pasolucy]

I rest my case. Nuff said,

[Pasogirlz]

I'm thinking we have :dead horse enough already too.

[pasolucy]

Pasogirlz, You of course are right, I should not have answered back. I am packing to go spend 3 days in the mountains of Oregon on a horse. I will come back with a whole new attitude and calm manner. Beautiful weather, wonderful mountain trails, and great Paso Fino horses, could it ever get any better?

[Pasogirlz]

Pasogirlz, You of course are right, I should not have answered back. I am packing to go spend 3 days in the mountains of Oregon on a horse. I will come back with a whole new attitude and calm manner. Beautiful weather, wonderful mountain trails, and great Paso Fino horses, could it ever get any better?

Oh can I come? I need a vacation too. ;-)

[Edurne]

and once again....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vqCneJ9KCg

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

:shock: