endurance riding *** THREAD UNLOCKED

[joslyn]

Hi: I'm new to this forum. Hoping to start a thread on conditioning/competing Pasos in endurance/competitive riding.
My gelding, Pasarab's Abierto, and I compete in endurance riding here in the midwest.
I have found that it takes much more conditioning for 'Bert' to handle the stresses of endurance riding compared to the Arab crowd.
Anyone have similar experiences/different?
Curious.
Joslyn.

[Candice Burger]

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[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

We have quite a few endurance riders on the forum that should have some interesting thoughts on this subject. And once again, Welcome. ;-)

[Laura S]

Welcome Joslyn!! We have some endurance riders on this forum and I would love to see their comments too! I am hoping someday I will have the time to condition for limited distance rides!

[CarolU]

I used to own Arabs, had a breeding stallion for several years. As I recall, the Arabian has a larger nostrile to bring in more air, and has a higher lung capacity (air exchange) to lean muscle mass ratio then other breeds. The Arab was bred specifically for long distance riding.

That isn't to say that Paso Finos don't excell at Endurance riding, it's just that there is a reason Arabs tend to dominate the rankings.

Paso Finos also have great energy and endurance, and IMO are the best of the gaited breeds for Endurance racing.

The question I would ask myself is how much I enjoy walking at the end of the race. I've done many rides with all breeds of horses over the years (now in Back Country Horsemen). I can't tell you how delighted I am to NOT TROT!!!

[Candice Burger]

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[joslyn]

Hi: I think Pasos can do very well at endurance riding, meaning - the ability to endure day after day of long riding. Bert excels at multi-day rides, consistently stronger each day. To me, that's the mark of a true endurance horse.
I haven't seen/heard of any pasos with the speed to win an endurance race. Here in the midwest, 50 milers are sometimes run in under 4.5 hours. Too fast for my guy!
Another difference I have noted is that it takes the Pasos long to pulse down at the vet checks than the Arabs. Could be many reasons for this, thicker skin, lung capacity, etc...
As my girlfriend jokes - it takes alot! of water to pulse down a Paso!
I have noticed that Bert has improved dramatically as the miles have gone by. It's just that the Arabs walk in with a 40 pulse without any effort!
Proper conditioning is very important for our guys.
Joslyn

[ErinC]

where are the endurance masters??????
come out come out wherever you are?
http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14549&highlight=endurance

[sporthorse]

Josyln,
Welcome,
how about a picture of your team?
Oh,your awsome horse ; Bert,who was fourth in the nation mileage wise in LDs , has a relative that won several major endurance rides .His name is Daddy's Shadow de PaCa ("Endurance" not LD rides)
http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/RideResults/rrReport.asp?distanceID=arev3899 he is brother to Bert's sire,Eminente de Mile. My horse Obi has common great & grandparents to your horse "Bert". In Ld's ;Obi has got second place,third twice & several respectable top tens in over fifty riders races and he has got me first middle weight several times( speed is not the prob he has many eleventh places because I pull him up to protect him from his speed). I agree the heavier muscles take longer to advance in rankings(building ones horse properly) but the multi day rides bring around the slight advantages in reserves or if any real physiological(other than heart and mind)that a paso fino has over the dominant Arabians.The reasons stated by Carol U are the physically evident ones.There are others like the familiarity vets and volenteers have with the Arab way of travel in the check areas.If you are ineterested in hearing about another couple of paso finos that took first second and fith in one day hundreds I have info on them. Faren (a gelding)and also a mare (fifth place)in the Montanat Big Horn said to be tougher than the Tevis.Daddy's Shadow did the AERC Nationals Championship race and came in eleventh in the nations top horses. the stats for paso finos completions are way up there and ratios may actually compare to Arabians.
I almost forgot Cathy Barnes has a Tsar that was top ten horses with a second place and a BC
http://www.doublejoy.com/erol/RideResults/rrReport.asp?distanceID=8951 and a half paso/half Arab by a paso mare Altanera Real that top tens got first place and a BC her first LD endurance ride try at "Goethe" a ride with more than fifty horses easy.
http://www.featherhills.com/Distance%20Stats%20Paso%20Fino%20Horses.htm
Keep on trucking and go girl your fifty milers are adding up fast, great job!
Ed

[sporthorse]

Hi, Joslyn,

It's Lindsay. Welcome.

Thought I would throw in my two cents for what they're worth.

First "To Finish is to Win" is not only AERC's motto, it's also mine.
A close second is "No pulls." Third, in 10 years I hope to be able state,
"I have ridden Pocita for 10 years and she's still out here competing. She's an AERC Decade Horse (one that has completed at least one distance ride for 10 years in a row)."

My heroes in the sport of endurance riding are John Parks and his wonderful, feisty little Icelandic gelding, Remington Steele, who has over TEN THOUSAND endurance miles. That little horse (most would say "pony" at 13.3 hands) is now up there with a truly elite group of Arabian horses, all legends in the sport, all with 10,000 or more miles. John and R usually end up finishing long after everyone else on the 100 milers, but they get the job done, over and over and over again. And they stay sound doing it.

Are Paso Finos capable of the same? I believe so. Will they ever be truely "competitive" (i.e "winning" and/or placing) enough and for long enough to ever be in contention for say, the Olympic Team or the Pan American Team? I think it highly unlikely. Not impossible, just not likely.

First, the sheer numbers of Arabians in the sport make them almost shoe-ins for the big time. And there are plenty more when one is no longer able to compete. They are, for the most part, relatively inexpensive to purchase, even fairly seasoned competitors. And, I have to admit, a large number of them really are "made" for the distance sports (conformation, less fat -they are "radiators", not "ovens"-, long strides both at canter and trot). Their pulses and recoveries are usually faster (again, not always, individuals differ) and due to the fact that they move seemingly so effortlessly, even at the end of the rides , they "show" so much better for the vets and judges, exhibiting a better impression of lots of remaining energy.

Pasos, on the other hand, tend to be shorter and stockier with more fat. They condition well cardiovascular wise, but they are more like ponies with their higher pulses and respirations and they often retain heat, probably one reason the pulse and respirations take longer to come down. In my opinion (and it is MY opinion, others may not agree with me), the very thing that makes the Paso so desireable for distance riding (there is, after all, a lot to be said for being able to hit the grave still with your original knees and hips) :razz: is also the thing which makes it the least desirable for true "competition" or "the big time" in distance sports and that is the gait. Other riders don't call our guys "sewing machines" for nothing as much as we (I) hate to admit it. They have shorter, quicker strides, even the non-fino, non-performance, non-show pleasure types, mine included. What most distance horses can cover in one stride, the Paso may take 3 or more to cover the same amount of ground. So, the Paso works harder, number one. Number two, depending upon how much time is actually spent in the Paso corto or largo, there's the issue of concussion on the legs and push, pull and strain on tendons and ligaments. Where most Arabians glide along doing their "big trot" with feet close to the ground "daisy clipping", many Pasos are pounding along much harder and with a lot more "lift". This is fine, even an advantage, on uneven, rocky or root-filled surfaces, in hilly or mountainous areas, but a distinct disadvantage on the flat, especially in sand.

We are beginning to see some extremity stress and breakdown, especially, or I would venture to say almost exclusively, in Pasos that are fast in gait (largo), that prefer largo gait over trocha or canter or even andadura (bad word!) and that like to top ten. Which is to say, the folks out there trying to consistently top ten with Pasos that are naturally speedy (or not) are running into problems in some cases. For those not having issues physically here are others with mental fatigue and problems with getting to be almost unmanageable at rides. Of course, other breeds have the same breakdowns and mental issues. Any time you ask for more speed AND more distance you open up a whole new can of worms, I don't care what breed you ride.

I spoke to a UF vet surgeon recently about the tendon and ligament issues we're seeing. She stated that she sees many problems with this in distance horses in general because they spend so much time in extension, whether at walk, trot or canter. And they do it for mile upon mile. Things start stretching and weakening. In the Paso the addition of force or impact along with the increased number of strides to cover the same amount of ground can exacerbate things. This is true even if the Paso trochas or canters or whatever; the stides are just shorter, generally speaking, than the Arabian's.

So, what does this tell us. If we are wise, care about our horses, want to market the Pasos as able to do some of the different sports with great comfort to the rider and want a "Decade Horse" in our barns, we will probably have to forget "winning" and big time competition in distance and simply get out there and ride along at our 6-8 mph speed and "git 'er done". As I tell every one who asks "If I want to rack up the miles, win some nice mileage awards, get the TOP or LOM, get a lot of jealous looks when I climb off Pocita after 50 miles still with a spring in my step and a smile on my face I will continue to ride a Paso. If I want to go to the World Equestrian Games (WEG) I'll buy and COMPETE and Arabian."

There are only 4-5 Pasos that have ever completed a 100 miler. Only 2-3 have done more than one. There are probably 10-15 dabling in 50-75 milers. More are doing multi day rides, especially in limited distance as you mention, Joslyn. There's a lot of info out there on how to train and condition and so on. I feel most of it is very useful for the gaited breeds, including our own. Let's use it and learn from others. Having to replace a good horse every year or two due to misuse or overuse gets expensive if nothing else. And by doing that we would never get to experience the wonderful experience having a true partnership with your horse over many years can bring. Wow, wouldn't it be something to one day see a Paso Fino's name up there in the 10,000 mile plus group!

So, do I think Pasos can do the 50s and the 100s over many years? Absolutely, if their riders ride smart (educate themselves on what that is), put their partner's well-being FIRST and adopt AERC's and my mottos or similar ones. Do I think they can be consistent top ten contenders, able to be world class competitors, IMO, at this time, no, unless, that is, they only attend rides with 10 or fewer riders completing :smile: !

Lindsay

[pnalley]

Great post Lindsey! It is nice to hear someone speak openly and honestly about our breed of choice.

I admire those of you that can ride 50+ miles. I have a 15 mile rump ;-)

[ErinC]

very well written!
thanks.

to add to ED'S POST here are stories, and pic's

http://www.featherhills.com/Distance%20Riding.htm

[Pinto Paso]

That was so informational, I think it is great that with our smaller numbers a lot of the health and competative information is being compiled from the ground up - what a great way to establish the breed in these types of events.

And it is great seeing people preserving their horses and enjoying the sport so thoroughly.... Congrats!!

[motorgypsy]

Great info!! If your goal is to win you can do as some of our locals do - keep buying and breaking down Arabians until you find one that can handle the speed and distance. Our vet is constantly telling us about one of his clients (no names of course) who just broke down another Arabian doing endurance.

I've done about 10 LD rides and hope to do many more but I will only go the speed my horse can safely travel. One has a wonderful easy canter that is easy to ride and easy on her as well as a nice largo - BUT she wants to stay with the herd. The other prefers trocha, gait or trot but is a much smarter ride because she will tell me when she is tired regardless of where the "herd" is. So the first mare has to be watched carefully for fatigue because she will kill herself trying. The second has to be forced to change gaits to prevent to much stress on certain tendons and ligaments.

One big advantage we have with paso fino other than their amazing surefootedness and agility is the variety in our breed. If a number of people become serious about doing endurance I'm sure the genes are there for durable long distance horses because in particular paso finos were ridden all over the Andes mountains for years and years, hour after hour, long before cars were used. The durability and mentality is there. We just have to look for these characteristics rather than looking necessarily for a largo horse. Yes there are largo horses who are great endurance mounts but it's not a critical attribute for a paso fino endurance mount. I always say the fino horse is the easiest to condition because you can train in your back yard. But a fino horse with a decent largo can indeed be an excellent candidate for endurance.

As all these baby boomers retire I think we'll see more and more interest in the paso fino as an endurance horse. What other breed can you ride 25 or 50 miles and when you're finished you have enough energy to go dancing??? We do LOVE these guys!!!

[sporthorse]

-below is info and if you click on the link above for Barbara Dailey you will see she had many miles on Arabs and some of her impressive rides came late in her carreer on her paso fino Daddy's Shadow de Paca of 5505 miles endurance riding.
I would like to say what Lindsay has stated that to finish is to win and saving your horses to ride again is paramount. And to ride a paso finos is to be able to do this sport and save yourself to ride many years of enjoyable fun sport of endurance or LD or CTR or pleasure/recreational distance & trail riding-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP FINAL
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Copyright © 1985-2007 American Endurance Ride Conference
This is an archival ride result.
We are in the process of adding this data to the online site.
At this point, neither placing nor points are available for archival results.
The archived data didn't keep track of pulls or pull reasons.

SE Region Nov 2 1991 50 miles
Manager: Nina Warren
52 starting, 46 finishing
Winner: BRIPA SHAHIN ridden by Mary Elizabeth Owen in 04:13
BC: PARS TURBO GIN ridden by Diane Bickers in 04:38, points
see note on Points / Dues below.
see note on data quality and sourcing below

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1 04:13 Mary Elizabeth Owen on BRIPA SHAHIN 150/150
2 04:13 Yves Morissette on ATIR WALDT 150/125
3 04:28 Darlene Hensley on EL BARHACZ 125/110
4 04:30 Mark Lipham on KOHNICAN 110/100
5 04:38 Irvin Collins on POKER'S PRINCE 150/90
6 04:38 Diane Bickers on PARS TURBO GIN 100/80 BC
7 04:40 Joe Herron on MALORI AAZSAKR /
8 04:40 Annabelle Hollis on ZOKOTA 125/65
9 04:42 Bill Wilson on BO DEY 90/60
10 04:49 Lois Finlay on HIFASA ROYALE 80/55
11 05:05 Barbara Dailey on DADDY'S SHADOW DE PA CA 110/50
12 05:05 Debbie Hollis on ETT NOR MAR BIANCA 70/50
13 05:06 Connie Burns Caudill on DANCERS STREAK 100/50
14 05:06 Guido Deutschler on CS MISTY 65/50
15 05:06 Judy T. Hand on BAYDR AL FAY 110/50
16 05:07 Joseph F. Edwards III on MARCO 100/50
17 05:25 Lucille Buntin on HAVEN HILL SHARIF 90/50
18 05:25 Terry Spencer Price on ANNONANITSA 60/50
19 05:25 Jody Rogers-Buttram on PETIT JETS SHADOW 90/50
20 05:27 Jim Hastie on SUKARO HCC 80/50
21 05:30 Ivey Daughtridge on TOUBULI 55/50
22 05:42 Pam Linahan on QUAS WELLINGTON 80/50
23 05:42 Douglas Ivey on PAINT 70/50
24 05:42 Rick Hensley on HOUDINI HAWK 50/50
25 05:46 Tom Sites on G.M. BALLISTIC 50/50
26 05:47 Betsy Chadwick on TODD SHIRE OFIRA 70/50
27 06:16 Charles Long on MATUBBA 65/50
28 06:18 Nathan Wyatt on KOMMENTARY TATAR /
29 06:18 Carmen Blalock on BLITZ 50/50
30 06:24 M. Patricia Harrop on SLAM THE BOOK 50/50
31 06:24 Angela McGhee on COUNT MONJOUR 50/50
32 06:25 Ruth Grover on BEAUFORD 65/50
33 06:52 Ann Franklin on SHARICK O SHANE 60/50
34 06:52 Larry Lewis on WAHKANDI 60/50
35 07:11 Louise Burton on FA AL BADI+ 55/50
36 07:19 Jacinta Denton on MENTOR /
37 07:25 Elena Clark on JMA SOLO BREEZE /
38 07:25 Karen Collins on TOSKA /
39 07:25 Walter Styers on ST. STEUDEL /
40 07:39 Mary Chmielewski on MEI GEM 50/50
41 07:39 Helen Cantrell on CHUNOHNEE /
42 07:43 Manny Delcharco on DESIGN BY SALON /
43 08:11 Carol Ann Beckner on CHELSEA ROMA 50/50
44 09:29 George Ester on TEX 50/50
45 09:29 Lisa Ester on WACO 50/50
46 09:29 Robert N. Todd on DOC'S WHIT BAR 50/50

The data in this website originates from the AERC National Office. Updates can and do occur. The official record source is the AERC National Office.

Information dated from Dec. 1, 1995 forward is complete. Endurance records from 1984-1995 can be considered relatively accurate. At present, Limited Distance records begin with Dec. 1, 1995. There is no ride data on-line prior to Dec.1, 1984.

Copyright © 1985-2007 American Endurance Ride Conference


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[B Hall]

I have not seen the Paso as harder to condition then the Arab but I think if the particular Paso chosen was poorly suited for the task it would be hard to condition them but this would be the same for any breed. Among other things a Paso that does not have a very athletic build... perhaps with small nostrels, a very round/fat paso with very heavy neck, and or a paso that has no range of gait would be particularly challenged with distance.

Be patient in building your foundation and don't ask for too much too soon or you risk injury or souring the horse mentally.

Make a wise choice in the Paso you wish to compete. And set reasonable goals for both yourself and your horse. For instance , if your horse is not the most athletic and you still want to try the sport of distance to see if you like it just do so planning to spend more time doing your homework on the conditioning trail and plan to ride a slower ride especially coming into the vet checks so your horse is already well on its way to recovery before you check in.

Part of the heart rate recovery time is how well the owner has done in conditioning the horse. That is conditioning for not only the miles but the terrain (flat to rolling land vs. rolling hills to mountains, rocks, sand) and the climate - heat and humidity may be part of the ride so may be rain, wind, or even snow... if the horse is not prepared and the owner is caught unaware the horse can over heat or get chilled and cramp either of which will keep the heart rate up. The activity of the campground and the herd of strange horses and the bustle of the vet checks are all things to condition the horse for.

A big part of the ability to recover to the ride max heart ride has to do with what the individual horses resting heart rate is. The resting HR will likely improve a little bit with conditioning and practice in taking that HR both yourself and strangers. However don't expect a BIG gain in this area.

The problem (as related to the original post asking for discussion about conditioning and recovery in distance events) with many of our hotter bloodlines is that along with the focused breeding to produce that hotter quicker horse often comes a more reactionary horse. By reactionary I mean a horse quick to jump and snort when you snap your fingers or clear your throat... What we see appears to be a trend for the horses that are "over reactive" to their surroundings to have a higher resting heart rate. This means that during the ride you may find yourself in the unpleasant situation of needing the perfect set of circumstances for your individual horse to stop reacting and pulse down.

The horse that is so reactive may very well be physically fit to run (or gait) from NYC to LA non stop but MENTALLY he will not pulse to satisfy the safty check with the vet.

The mental make up of the horse clearly does have a residual effect on the heart rate of the individual animal. We have first hand experience where the fitter paso will pulse slower then the next one because mentally the next horse doesn't care if a bird chirped two miles away and thus the calmer less reactive paso pulses with the Arabs every time and maybe faster even if she is dead beat tired and the Paso that is ready to go another 50 is staying pumped up by the excitment of the surroundings and so based on the heart rate the vets think they should hold him for an additional rest period.

[Candice Burger]

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[ErinC]

I love the PASO FINO!
but like ALL Breeds , all Breeds have horses that are bred for certain things.

Myself ---l have been the owner of BOTH
An Endurance Bred Gelding from B Hall - (3 yr old I am training now.)
and I have had many other type lines ( all kinds )
I can attest to the differance. (not saying they can not do it! )
one is much more ho-hum and does the job with very little reaction just mellow, and willing. ( some paso riders would be bored with that! )
the other is not so ho-hum and does the job but it takes more out of him to do the job. ( some paso riders are afraid of that ! )


I do believe you can breed for mellow, breed for hype, ( brio as low as 2 to brio as high as 10 ) breed for fino, breed for largo. breed for a height, breed for color ---the list goes on.
the paso is and always will be very diverse
some are good for somethings, while others are good for other things.
I know ALL Paso Finos can do all the things we teach them to do, but some are easier to teach -certain things to- what they are best at, so - why not use that as a tool to get the best result? for horse and rider?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I feel this is the SAME for ALL breeds of horses NOT just the Paso Fino.
I use to raise and train Arabs, I would only get certain lines for what I wanted to do with them...
My friend Breeds and trains QH and Appy's -- she shoots for 1 or 2 lines because they do what she is looking for...

[Cindy]

I thought of something that correlates to this topic and discussion. I had the priviledge to attend a performance and clinic of the Spanish Riding School when they were in Atlanta. It was a great experience and I so admired the genuine horsemanship displayed that I was in awe. The clinic and the literature taught some about how they trained the young horses and how they decided what to teach the young horses. And their approach to this was very refreshing. They breed from all the different lines within the accepted Lippizaners without regard for what the horse is going to be in the future. They are breeding only to breed a good Lippizan horse. Once the horse is ready for training, they are all started the same way and the ones who show aptitude for High School work are sent in that direction and the ones that have aptitudes for other work are sent in other directions. Of the horses that go on to the High School level, some are taught some moves and some are taught other moves. They are taught ONLY the moves that they show the aptitude for and are never asked to do moves that they cannot do. There are few horses that are athletic enough to do all the High School moves. But the horses that cannot do all the moves are not looked down upon for not being able to do them, they are instead looked up to and admired for how well they do those things that they do do.

All of these horses are bred from the same stock for only one thing and that is to be a good Lippizan horse. Some of the good Lippizan horses end up pulling carts. But they are still good Lippizan horses. Others end up performing capriolles and they are still good Lippizan horses. But there has never been a Lippizan horse who was bred specifically to do capriolles.

[ErinC]

VERY VERY to the point that I was trying to make!

thanks!!!!

this touched me
But the horses that cannot do all the moves are not looked down upon for not being able to do them, they are instead looked up to and admired for how well they do those things that they do do.

AMEN!!!!
we need to remind ourselves of this each and every day!

THANK YO CINDY!

[Candice Burger]

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[CarolU]

It has only been the USA that we have disseminated the breed and to its detriment!

Is that really true Candice? The reason I ask is that aren't Pasos that don't "fino" in Colombia considered criollos? Sold as farm stock, like the cattle working lines that were orginally brought to the U.S.? And isn't the same true in Puerto Rico, that non-Fino Pasos are sold for general use and no longer considered Paso Finos?

[stella]

Candace,

I understand what you're saying....but with all breed growth, any breed, people eventually specialize their breeding,because what makes many bloodlines special, is having something UNIQUE to offer, or MORE SO of a particular trait than some of the others....but it doesnt necessarily mean they have to lose TYPE.

In all competitive events, as the competition gets tougher and tougher when more and more people(and horses!)participate, eventually it leads to major "raising the bar"-not just SELECTING when purchasing, but also selection in BREEDING, the animals whose traits are more specifically superior than others FOR THE GOAL chosen.

GENTLE IN HAND, Spirited Under Saddle.....

Just to ease your mind...its probably better to be breeding FOR sports that will be about the same thing, 50 years ago, and the same now.....something like Competitive or Endurance riding, the sport itself is pretty much unchanging, a constant...

Whereas the showring, particularly breed-specific showrings, tend to change alot every 10 years or so- certain fads and fashions come into play - and its NOT JUST in our breed, but it IS in our breed, too! Its not a constant...the priorities, the order of priorities, changes like the swinging of a pendulum....thats been the same since horseshows were invented-so YES, I saw where you made the statement proclaiming how the shows "used to be".......when shows were about judging qualities of a "using" pleasure horse, not "today's," but the fact is, like it or not, we DO have today's showring, and currently people are breeding for it (of course, all may actually differ in 5 years again!)..but yes, right NOW showring culls may still not be suitable for these other sports, there's a priority of selection for something else- but not necessarily LESS, just DIFFERENT!

I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree.....we should embrace the ENTIRE breed, and love all of it----I do.....I think everyone participating on this thread does...but the REALITY is, we all will prefer certain horses with certain traits that we personally prioritize in our own human-horse relationships, but that doesnt mean we DONT admire the others.......nor necessarily think "our kind" is better, yet the diversity is still not THAT divergent to not all be very recognizable as a "Paso Fino."

Its not a rejection of certain types.....look at it the other way around- its possible that the horse thats never going to competitively cut it in competitive/endurance riding, because its movements are too quick, too short, might become a showhorse, and the horse that is not quick or short enough for ANY of the classes, makes a great competitive horse...or, even if not either of those, be a topnotch trail horse - BECAUSE THEY HAVE CORRECT PASO TRAITS (just in a variety of dosages! and the right ATTITUDE-willingness period)....and it doesnt make one type of activity any more important than the other......
THATS THE PROBLEM.
The concept most people have, that the showring is a more "valuable" and "important" competition than other types of competitions!

What we need to change is our perceptions... see thru hype, rethink our values and priorities....and our personal ones ARE important, not just the herd mentality.....and take time to set our personal individual priorities, not just blindly buy into someone else's, without a clear understanding.

For instance.....if a horse becomes a National Champion in fino, and there were the usual 12-15 horses in the class(you can count on ONE HAND in the entire history of the breed, how many times it was over 20 in the class!)....
...IS that REALLY a more impressive win, and a more important horse, than the horse that was National Champion in Pleasure Mares, in a class of 80 horses??
Is classic fino really "better," or is it just "rarer" for a Paso to fino-fino very well, that makes it more "valuable?"
If correctness of gait is paramount, then wouldnt CONSISTENCY of correctness, say more about strength of NATURAL GAITEDNESS than the style?
Is a horse more strongly gaited if it can stay consistent thru a variety of speeds, transition easily from one speed to another without ever breaking gait, or is quickness and shortness more valuable than squareness? Which horse would have more to offer the BREED as a breeding animal? OR, is SPEED more valuable than correctness, from the "largo" perspective?
Just throwing some questions out for thought.....

Dont worry Candace - the competitive/endurance people in our breed are probably closer to what the original Conquistadors were breeding for at the remount stations...the forewardness and energy are STILL very important in competitive and endurance riding....as I found out the hard way by volunteering to drag ride some any years ago - its NOTHING like a simple pleasure ride! (but I did alot more, after-just much more conditioned!)There's VERY little opportunity to WALK AT ALL ! Nor should you use a horse that prefers to!
The paso that you know and love...is very suitable!
IT DOES need to be "gentle in hand"-and MIND, not just spirited under saddle...to have the p&rs come down quickly, but IF you have horses with correct brio, can turn on and off as a truly good Paso should, thats fine. I think its more a matter of not having as many EXPERIENCED PEOPLE that have the know-how to condition properly, deal with the differences, but it seems we have some troupers that will change that shortly, and hopefully help other people develop into topnotch c/e trainers and riders. Its still an area we're in our infancy, but one where we'll "conquer the Americas" again!

Actually, the gait should be EASIER on their legs, because the horse never impacts its full bodyweight, and that of the rider, on their legs, the way a trotting horse does......there's never a time all 4 feet are off the ground like a trotter's are. This should make up for any shorter stride, creating more strides-but even with a longer-strided horse, there are ways to teach the horse to EXTEND its stride, relax more, without going off gait...people with trotting horses know how to do that, and most of us dont.......

[CarolU]

I just think THIS part is worth repeating...again and again.

Is classic fino really "better," or is it just "rarer" for a Paso to fino-fino very well, that makes it more "valuable?"
If correctness of gait is paramount, then wouldnt CONSISTENCY of correctness, say more about strength of NATURAL GAITEDNESS than the style?
Is a horse more strongly gaited if it can stay consistent thru a variety of speeds, transition easily from one speed to another without ever breaking gait, or is quickness and shortness more valuable than squareness? Which horse would have more to offer the BREED as a breeding animal? OR, is SPEED more valuable than correctness, from the "largo" perspective?
Just throwing some questions out for thought.....

I sincerely hope that the "breed for speed" mentality is just a fad, and that consistency and squareness will come back into style again.

BTW - One thing in Brenda's post that should be addressed. I think MOST (not all) the perceived problem with show lines being 'spooky' is from trainers that skip a lot of ground work and desensitizing and focus only on gait, then it is of those lines. Yes, I'm sure there are some horses born to be spookaholics, but I believe even those can be 'fixed' with decent training.

[Candice Burger]

filed

[Cindy]

Candice, you really need to copy that to a file somewhere so you can do a repeat of it next month and the month after that and the month after that. And every other time that it is applicable as an answer to a discussion of Paso Fino. Which is quite often.

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

Candice, you really need to copy that to a file somewhere so you can do a repeat of it next month and the month after that and the month after that. And every other time that it is applicable as an answer to a discussion of Paso Fino. Which is quite often.

I concur. 8-)

If you like...I could save it w/some of my regular speeches. :lol:

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

In reference to the forwardness post...

Here is horse that was born and raised in Miami, and trained for the show all his life, and lived 23 out of 24 hours a day in the stall.


Bloodlines: He is a Classico son.

How did he do on the trails when I took him to the farm? GREAT.

I think he could potentially make a great endurance or CTR horse as well.

This video was shot to try to recreate a trail challenge course, which is why we seem in a hurry. ;-) But check out the forwardness of this horse who has had little to no exposure to the woods.

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=36aa96d43bccf1f00800da&skin_id=601&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url

[Candice Burger]

filed

[Candice Burger]

Candice, you really need to copy that to a file somewhere so you can do a repeat of it next month and the month after that and the month after that. And every other time that it is applicable as an answer to a discussion of Paso Fino. Which is quite often.

I concur. 8-)

If you like...I could save it w/some of my regular speeches. :lol:



LOL! Naw, keeps me sharp every time I have to shoot from the hip! Practicing my draw now.

I wish I had taken speed typing in high school though! OUCH!

[B Hall]

Stella, I particularly enjoyed your post and agree very much with what you are saying.

[B Hall]

Very little Heart Size/ Heart Rate information is out there on any of the breeds and to my knowledge I am involved in the only research being done on the Paso Fino breed and its Heart Rate or Heart Size. And yes this is in its infancy just as the Paso Fino competing in distance is also in the infancy stage and will be for some time. There have been Paso's out there in competition for decades but they have been few in numbers. Those numbers are growing and I beleive will continue to grow.


We regularly deal with all "types" of Paso Fino horses in our business of breeding and training and we recognize each of them for their strenghts. I personally do not like to see any horse of any breed forced into a task that it is not very well suited for. I much prefer to see the horse recognized for what it is naturally most suited for bred for or born for and trained to be the best it can be at whatever that thing is.

I beleive those of us that are truely interested in seeing the Paso Fino succeed at distance can avoid re-creation of the wheel by paying attention to what works and does not work for the Arabs. DUH! We really want as many of the same characteristics as we can get and our breed already has much of the same to offer.

Why in the world would it be someones goal to breed the best GENERAL Paso they can? What breeder is not already breeding the BEST SPECIALIZED Paso they can? Specialized for the goals that breeder has set for their program? This is no different from any other breed and it is no different then the Paso breeders in Columbia & Puerto Rico are doing. Don't tell me that because I am an American that I can't breed the best Paso Fino according to the goals and priorities of my breeding program. If I (or any breeder) am wrong people will not buy my horses and the market will prove my ideas/goals/program to be a failure and if I am right the market will prove my program to be a success.

Brenda Hall
Feather Hill Stables
www.featherhills.com

[Cindy]

Since this "show horse" thing has been brought up again, I think I will comment about it this time. I wanted to comment about it when it was first brought up but did not want to cause a big thing about it. Since the big thing has already been and now seems to be settled with those involved calmed down a bit and talking nice again, I am hoping that this nice, nice will continue and noone will take what I have to say as any kind of personal insult or out of the context in which it is meant.

First I will post what was originally said of show horses in Branda's first post. Which, by the way, I agree with most of, except this comment about show bred horses and after I post the qute I will explain why this thinking bothered and still bothers me. The quote was this:

The problem (as related to the original post asking for discussion about conditioning and recovery in distance events) with many of our hotter showier bloodlines is that along with the focused breeding to produce that hotter quicker horse often comes a more reactionary horse. By reactionary I mean a horse quick to jump and snort when you snap your fingers or clear your throat... What we see appears to be a trend for the horses that are "over reactive" to their surroundings to have a higher resting heart rate. This means that during the ride you may find yourself in the unpleasant situation of needing the perfect set of circumstances for your individual horse to stop reacting and pulse down.

The horse that is so reactive may very well be physically fit to run (or gait) from NYC to LA non stop but MENTALLY he will not pulse to satisfy the safty check with the vet.


OK, now is where I need to pick and choose my words careful so as to not offend and hopefully I can accomplish that. If not, I apoligize in advance to anyone who is offended this is not meant to offend.

First of all, a reactionary horse, one that is over reactive to their surroundings, does NOT, I repeat does NOT make a good show horse. Those of us who are breeding for good show horses are NOT breeding for "hot" horses and we are NOT breeding for "reactionary" horses. Now an outside observer may THINK that we are as they see our horses in the ring working really hard and THINK they know the type of horse that they are seeing. But apparently, and I say apparently because I see people making comments so many times about what they think show horses are that are far from correct, these outside observers have no idea what it takes for a horse to be successful in the show ring. The reactionary horse that Brenda speaks of makes a HORRIBLE show horse. Why? Because they are always reacting to outside stimulus and do not focus on their job. They are actually much easier to ride on the trail than they are to show. Why? Because on the trail you can let them see whatever they are reacting to. You can go around that scary thing instead of right next to or over it. You can adjust on the trail to make the horse more comfortable. In the show ring, however, that horse must stay on the rail, not spook, pay attention to it's job, do EXACTLY as it's rider asks and forget about reacting to anything but the rider. It is very, very difficult to get a reactionary horse to do all these things and no matter how much talent said horse has, it will never be a great show horse. Trust me, I've tried.

The second thing that tends to bother me very often is, and please don't anyone take this personally as it is more of a general statement than anything else, when people who have never shown at the level to know what it takes to make a good, competitive show horse make comments about show horses that are not correct. Aside from just being plain wrong, it paints a picture of the Paso Fino as something that it is not. Show horse or otherwise. And I think this correlates to Candice's big original beef in this topic. Just because you may have known a horse that had previously been shown that acts a certain way does NOT mean that A- that horse was a good show horse. Any horse can show. Or B- that that is how show horses are SUPOSED to be. Or C- that that is what SUCCESSFUL breeders of show horses breed and train for. So, please, do not generalize and throw that word "show" in when it does not pertain to the discussion. It quite frankly feels like a knife in the chest every time I see it because it insults a lot of horses that I know and love.

[Pasomom]

I AM UNLOCKING THIS THREAD. I HAVE CLEANED OUT THE OFFENSIVE POST AS BEST I CAN. SOMETHINGS MAY HAVE GOTTEN DELETED THAT WERE GOOD INFORMATION BUT WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF STATEMENTS THAT WERE UNDESIRABLE, AND RATHER THAN HAVE THE POST ALL CUT UP AND NOT MAKE ANY SENSE, I REMOVED THE WHOLE POST.

I HAVE ALSO TAKEN OUT ALL POST THAT WERE NOT RELATED TO THIS THREAD, THIS IS NOT A HAND SLAP FOR THOSE FOLKS, IT JUST DIDN'T HAVE ANY PLACE AFTER DELETING ALOT OF THE OTHER POST.

I DID THIS BECAUSE THE INFORMATION IN THIS POST IS REALLY GOOD INFORMATION. I WANT IT TO BE HERE AND WOULD LIKE IT TO BE DISCUSSED WITH POLITENESS.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE "TOLD" ME THAT I AM ONE SIDED AND HAVE FAVORITES, AND HAVE DEMANDED THAT I DO THINGS EQUAL, I WILL SAY THIS: I DON'T KNOW BUT A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD, AND NONE OF THEM WELL ENOUGH THAT I WOULDN'T REPRIMAND THEM IF I THOUGHT THEY DESERVED IT. IF YOU THINK THIS JOB IS EASY, AND IT IS A PIECE OF CAKE TO RUN A WEBSITE THIS SIZE, LET ME INVITE YOU TO GO TRY IT.


THE FIRST PERSON THAT POSTS A SCARCASTIC POST OF ANY KIND, WILL BE BANNED FOR THE REST OF THE DAY.


************************************************** ******
I have been asked to post this link to the Yahoo thread.

Here it is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/longdistancepasofino/

[Cindy]

Thanks.

[Candice Burger]

THE FIRST PERSON THAT POSTS A SCARCASTIC, POST OF ANY KIND, WILL BE BANNED FOR THE REST OF THE DAY.
:not worthy

I must have missed something.

Too bad I can't remember what I did or what others did. Maybe it was all this pie I've been eating.

[ErinC]

:hug

[CarolU]

I just looked through it, you did a very good job of salvaging it. Thanks.

[Pasomom]

Your very welcome, I also salvaged the phenotype thread. Hope it can also continue on now.

You guys have no idea how long it took me to do all this!

[ErinC]

thanks for all your hard work!

[B Hall]

Great Work PasoMom! Thank You!

[Edurne]

Thank you..... this has been a truly informative thread.... perhaps the kind that many of us wishing to learn benefited from.

[paintedhorizon]

He looks like a fun guy to ride!

In reference to the forwardness post...

Here is horse that was born and raised in Miami, and trained for the show all his life, and lived 23 out of 24 hours a day in the stall.


Bloodlines: He is a Classico son.

How did he do on the trails when I took him to the farm? GREAT.

I think he could potentially make a great endurance or CTR horse as well.

This video was shot to try to recreate a trail challenge course, which is why we seem in a hurry. ;-) But check out the forwardness of this horse who has had little to no exposure to the woods.

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=36aa96d43bccf1f00800da&skin_id=601&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url

[motorgypsy]

I'd like to see this thread continue so some more of our thoughts on selecting a paso fino that is appropriate for endurance. One thing I perhaps didn't mention is that some horses just enjoy fast gait and canter. They run in the pasture a lot and "going fast" is fun for them. But they must be perfectly happy to go slowly when asked or they will not be a good choice despite their ability.

One other thing I was told that made sense. It takes at least three rides to really tell if a horse will do well at this sport because the first three are very stressful and new to them. After that they should settle in and just enjoy the trip. If they don't perhaps you need to rethink your choice or perhaps ride with a buddy to help them relax.

But no we wouldn't breed away from the ideal for the paso fino just to get a good endurance mounts. But I'm sure there are those who would.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[CarolU]

But no we wouldn't breed away from the ideal for the paso fino just to get a good endurance mounts. But I'm sure there are those who would.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I think that really is the crux of the controversy...WHO defines "ideal." I can say for sure that my ideal looks just like Zar and all her near relatives. I like a stockier horse with excellent conformation and more bone. Short back and short head. Speed of gait isn't even ON my list of criteria. I want smooth and consistent from natural talent, not something "brought out" in "Training."

My ideal has a nice, ground covering corto and extended largo, and a real nice flat walk. If they have that ambling walk also, even better.

[Mellifluous]

That is why there are so many types of pasos out there! We can all find our ideal horse if we look.

I ove the way Phoebe is built. She is slightly taller than average and very willowy. Her lighter build helps her cool down more quickly for vet checks than a stockier horse would. She really is very well suited to the sport as long as you are on of the "to finish is to win" people. She enjoys herself on the trail and really seems to like all of the hubub and strange horses. I think it is like a social party for her.

In the end, I don't think it is so much about the horse as an individual but is more about the team of horse and rider. Sure, most any horse can be conditioned to do it. The horse and rider team that goes again and again and finishes is the one with a rider that is willing to put time into proper conditioning of the horse, and the horse that enjoys being out and about and has a strong bond with their rider. That sort of team is unstoppable in almost any discipline. :D

[motorgypsy]

Carol don't you LOVE that BIG walk!! We have one mare, our old one, who has it. It just eats up the ground but is extremely smooth and she's only 13 3 but loooong legs and very slender barrel even after 5 foals (none are ours unfortunately). I sure wish I had her clone. She is one tough girl but knees are too arthritic at 25 for anything serious.

I think the more narrow slender barrel in general do better but both Chinook and Lula are chunky types and do fine. Lula has a better mind but I trust Chinook more and she's more agile - a regular mountain goat. Poor girl - she's called everything from a warthog to a mountain goat! Lula spooks alot if she's alone but she's very alert and interested in her surroundings. Chinook just bulls her way along at her ground eating canter that is smooth as silk or her nice largo. Neither have a big walk unfortunately.

I think trust is a big issue. One reason I haven't done a ride with our Cracker is I just don't trust him. He's silly. Very sweet and loves to please but my intuition just tells me he might do something because he thinks he should that might put me in harms way accidentally because he does love us dearly. He needs a lot more saddle time and the girls are such great rides he just gets neglected. Poor boy - but not neglected time wise. We spend a lot of time just hanging out with him he's so entertaining!! I just really trust the two girls to be smart on the trail and so far they have been.

Heat to me is the big enemy and the slimmer built horses smaller horses do get rid of heat a lot more easily than the chunky types but our breed handles heat better and Chinook's color really helps her. They also will both drink on the trail and eat soaked beet pulp and hay at rest stops so they have good sense too.

[CarolU]

Santiago is my horse that has the amble-walk. I wish all of them did it, it would be easier to keep up!! LOL

Oh, I don't think my 'ideal' Paso is necessarily the best for Endurance...just look at marathon runners, who wins those...and carry that across to horses. It is the lean ones with the best lean muscle mass:heart rate. I have one here I think will do great (Buddy), big, tall, lots of energy, big stride, no weight waisted on bulk.

Zar is my ideal TRAIL horse...and that really is what I really am, a Trail Rider.

This is what I live for:
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115CarolZarCrestSml.jpg

...and I guess, who I live to do it with. Love this horse.

[Mellifluous]

Who can argue with that picture.

I think you should use that picture to make your point in future debates Carol. It says all that needs to be said.

[TrueStepPaso]

This is a nice, informative thread. Thanks for unlocking it.

[Pasomom]

You're welcome. Glad it is going well.