Tennessee Walker doing dressage -what do you think???

[moonrize]

http://www.walkinonranch.com/MNFreestyle.html

Tell me what you think. I'll reserve my opinion for later. ;-)

[Cindy]

A very well trained horse. I don't think that horse could perform any better than what that trainer was able to get out of him. Good work by the trainer.

[Barbwire]

Oh, I remember this horse!! THe lady that owns him has done some AMAZING things with him. Be sure to check out the rest of the site to see what I am talking about.

Now, having said all that, I must say, the patented TWH head nod looks kinda silly on a dressage horse. IMO :lol:

[moonrize]

I think they've done quite a good job with him considering he's really not built for dressage. I don't like the "gait" movements since he seems to be pacing in cadence rather than gaiting in cadence. And although the horse looks like he's doing a good job at what they've asked, watching the rider, wow, it's really bouncy. Would be interesting to see what someone could do with a paso.

[paintedhorizon]

Watch this first video

http://www.walkinonranch.com/Celebration.html

About halfway through (you can move it forward) where the TWH are cantering. Her canter is beautiful. What in the HECK is that the TWH are doing? Tell me, HOW is that natural?? that is what ticks me off about those dang shows! I'm glad something is being done, I just hope they do more. Those are the reasons I left the last TWH show I went to, I was SICKENED by the so called NATURAL gaits they were doing! :evil:

[pnalley]

The dressage horse is awesome! I love the piaffe in gait! Too cool. I think that trainer got everything possible out of that horse.

The second folks with Watchout, man what a lovely animal. Good for them for taking "tradition" by the horns and showing what a real Tennesse Walker should look like! I think he is just stunning, a beautiful horse tht moves beautifully! His color perfectly matches his young riders outfit :not worthy

[Laura S]

Watch this first video

http://www.walkinonranch.com/Celebration.html

About halfway through (you can move it forward) where the TWH are cantering. Her canter is beautiful. What in the HECK is that the TWH are doing? Tell me, HOW is that natural?? that is what ticks me off about those dang shows! I'm glad something is being done, I just hope they do more. Those are the reasons I left the last TWH show I went to, I was SICKENED by the so called NATURAL gaits they were doing! :evil:

I loved this video. That young rider was so brave to go in their with all those big licks and show her TW naturally. He moved beautifully. Every once in awhile you could see her go by a big lick, and I just think the way they show those horses is disgusting.....it makes them look like freaks. Poor things, those TW's must be so embarrassed with what their owners do to them. JMHO.

[paintedhorizon]

Laura, I agree. I just don't see how it's even fashionable! It looks horrendous!

They didn't even place her in that show (I watched the whole thing). But I still think he was MUCH better than the others!

[TrueStepPaso]

Wow....I just watched that video collection & read their story about Champagne Watchout, and it gave me the deepest respect for these ppl. They are horse ppl I can truly look up to.

I couldn't get over how freakish those competing horses looked....they seemed like they belonged in a Star Wars movie the way they crawl awkwardly along the rail. Those poor things don't even have an ounce of stability in their rear legs from their fetlock to their hock.

As for the dressage video....although he is rather long & his gait/head bobbing looks kinda funny, I gotta give them credit for going out there & giving it their best. Good for them.

[paintedhorizon]

Yep, looks like a crab walking! I think the Sabino was walking the worse!

I know when Stella and I went to our first gaited dressage, ppl were looking at our "funny" looking horses because of the gait.

[Soltera]

I've just watched the first video, and no matter what you call that style or degree of success, that’s an amazing example of training and riding, with the added chutzpah of riding a gaited horse in gait! I agree that he seems to be doing his 'passage' in pace rather than gait. Hm; don't know about that terminology, as a "pace" IS a gait....anyway...

Funny that the cadenced passage is (I think) only with the front legs? What do ya’ll think?

Hard to tell how close the trainer comes to classical dressage (if that’s the purpose, who cares if it’s not? Not me – the whole video simply lovely) because of the odd contact – the head nodding makes it hard to tell how much of the energy transmitted through the horse’s body is being collected and controlled by the rider. I don’t see tremendous forward movement of the whole horse, especially in the lead changes, where her leg aids seem to move the (very obedient!) horse to the side before he changes and proceeds forward. But even those changes are an example of a good degree of suppleness, lots of pure obedience and “schwung”, when they step waaaay under themselves with energy, precision and forward movement of the leg.

Her hands are incredible, so steady with the nodding, and he evidently trusts her with his mouth, so that’s a happy sight.

I want to do what she did, on a paso. A fellow at the Piedmont Classic last year was riding around real late, I was just finishing stalls, and he saw me ogling his lovely mount, so he showed off a minute for me, right there in the street. He performed an amazing paso passage, with all four legs, just a light and powerful as a laser beam. Took about 5 minutes for me to get my chin off the floor….left me in tears….

[paintedhorizon]

You should have seen Stella's Pazarro at Nationals last year, after the last class. She was riding him into the arena before they closed it, bunch of ppl were doing the electric slide and I was the only thing between him and them. No space whatsoever. He was literally dancing on his toes, but it looked beautiful! When I say dancing, I mean DANCING, not shying!

[Soltera]

That's the problem with "sweat equity", lots of hanging with the horses ready to hose them as they are coming in from the arena, fetching someone's show hat, straightening a number, etc., but not a lot of time to watch the show.

Next time, I'll be there more as a spectator, because just thinking about that hunk o' horseflesh on his toes sends me to another planet!!!!!

[My Pasos]

They do look FREAKISH & Unatural. That is NOT a natural gait of a Walking horse to be padded up. It just makes them more animated.

If you look in the second video(I believe) those judges PICKED that horse apart. They didn't do that to the rest of the horses. Hmm.

I applaud the hoses owner to take it "All the Way"!!! It took alot of guts to "fight" the system!!!

Hmmm, when they first started to show TWHs, I wonder if Strolling Jim was padded? No, it started as a "Natural" TWH gait.

Anyway, He had ALL of the qualities of the padded horses & I think better!!
What a beautiful horse he is too. :D

Oh, I have to add that the riders look like TOADS in the saddles(exept for the girl)!! I would get yelled at if I ever sat in a saddle like that :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

[paintedhorizon]

You COULD come visit the farm you know. FYI, we won't be at Nationals this year.

Next time, I'll be there more as a spectator, because just thinking about that hunk o' horseflesh on his toes sends me to another planet!!!!!

[paintedhorizon]

OH yes, I saw that. And he never FLINCHED. Yet, I saw them walk up to some of the others and not even bend down and check!

If you look in the second video(I believe) those judges PICKED that horse apart. They didn't do that to the rest of the horses. Hmm.

[TrueStepPaso]

Ya, what's up with that?! The riders on those freak-o horses did look like TOADS. Why would they ever have to hunch over the horse like Quasimoto....? Let me guess, it makes them gait better? :roll:

[My Pasos]

Maybe it does help them :shock:

But, their "so called" equitation really stinks.

When I seen them looking over that horse, how much do you want to be they were looking for soreing???? They should've looked more closely at the "padded" horses. :twisted:

Once in a while, I will make a visit to the Walking horse supply store across from the Celebration. They must forget me, cause when they ask me how many TWH is have, I tell them NONE!!! Just Pasos :twisted:

Talk about the "nose" going up in the air..... :lmao

Edited: I don't have anything against Walkers. I used to own some & my BEST trail gelding was one. I DON'T appreciate the devices they use on them. That to me, is cruel & takes away from the breeds natural gait & beauty. Plus, my SSH come out of a Walker. Ya know tho, she is much smoother than a walking horse tho.

[Brigitte]

Yep have to agree..those other horses look like freaks. The natural one was way better

[paintedhorizon]

I imagine they sit like that to get off the back because the way the rear end legs are moving, any more weight, they might collapse!

If you look closely, the rear legs NEVER straighten out. Poor guys.

Ya, what's up with that?! The riders on those freak-o horses did look like TOADS. Why would they ever have to hunch over the horse like Quasimoto....? Let me guess, it makes them gait better? :roll:

[Soltera]

As distorted and twisted as they look, what I pity most is that they have to stand in the stalls all day in those pads. Can they even lie down to sleep?

[Jane Hurl]

I'm sitting here APPLAUDING that little girl for taking her horse in and showing what a TWH is capable of. And what a horse! Awesome!

Now if only MORE TWH people would do the same.

But then, sometimes it just takes ONE. Let's hope that SHE is the one!

[My Pasos]

Can they even lie down to sleep
Yes they can lay down & sleep. I have even seen them trail riding. :shock:

See, they made a statement by riding in the show like that!!!
Sadly tho, it fell on deaf ears. See, the only ones that can become WGC's are the padded ones. Makes NO sense. It is all for show and who is More animated. Who is the highest stepper. And lets not for get, whos the best trainer.

I honestly think that they are RUINING that beautiful breed. Ya see, if you DON'T agree with what they do, then YOU will be outcasted. I have seen it done many, many times!! :mad:

[paintedhorizon]

That video was from 1999, so unfortunately, I don't think she did very much. If you read the guestbook though, ppl are asking her to do it again.

[Jane Hurl]

And so it starts, PH. If she does go again, that might be all it takes. Then others might join her.

[paintedhorizon]

I for one hope she does!
And so it starts, PH. If she does go again, that might be all it takes. Then others might join her.

[BeckyB]

I had the pleasure of working with Ms. Jennie Jackson this past winter as a friend hired her to come out for a weekend and work with several of her horses (TWH/SSH) on gaited dressage principles. While I rode a TWH that weekend, everything I learned I have been able to transfer to my Paso gelding.

One very interesting thing I learned from Ms. Jackson was regarding the canter. The TWH “rocking horse” canter is fascinating. The first time I saw it, I was horrified. The first time I rode it, I giggled out loud. Most ‘trainers’ use gimmicks and shortcuts to get that rocking horse look, but Ms. Jackson will correctly spend 2+ years getting a horse strong enough and balanced enough to perform that gait. The interesting tidbit is that while dressage is all about collected movements, she acknowledges that the rocking horse canter is actually a ‘hollow’ gait. It cannot be performed in a fully collected frame with a rounded back.

I do not believe that the Paso Fino has this trouble at the canter (at any speed). However, I HAVE found that if my Paso is completely, totally rounded and his back right up under me, with his head in a typically lower dressage frame, the corto becomes next to impossible. The trot (trocha?) seems to be the gait that comes from a fully, completely, 100% collected (not compressed or shortened) frame.

Since I do not want my horse to trot, I simply do not place his head and back in these positions. But I can. Is it true that the Paso has to be just the tiniest bit ‘hollow’ [that is the completely wrong word but I can’t think of the right one] to gait?

It is interesting. And since he has a lovely, smooth trot, I suppose I could learn to sit the trot this way. :-? Plus, eventually wouldn’t that be fun to own a five-gaited Paso and be able to enter any open class on a whim? (Since there are no PFHA shows within hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles). :D

[Laura S]

Welcome to the forum BeckyB! I don't know a whole lot about dressage, but it must have been really neat to meet Ms. Jennie Jackson.

:welcome

[Jane Hurl]

Ditto ... WELCOME, Becky.

And, yes, I agree with you!
Plus, eventually wouldn’t that be fun to own a five-gaited Paso and be able to enter any open class on a whim? (Since there are no PFHA shows within hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles)

Tres cool! (I, too, am a million miles from any PFHA shows.)

[motorgypsy]

Welcome Becky!! There is no doubt that any good trainer can train most paso finos to do even more than 5 gait because they'll also pace if you let them know that is what you want. When you watch them frolic in the pasture you see all sorts of gaits being done so all the trainer has to do is tell the horse using a cue which gait the trainer wants.

All I have to do to ask for a trot is push the head down level with the poll and start swinging my body in a trot cadence as they move and they figure it out. Since I don't have the energy or bones to ride a trot I don't allow it for more and a minute or two on long rides just as a rest gait but I know Crystal taught Ickis to trot on command and I'm sure many others who own paso finos have done the same. Once the cue for gait is set and the horse is conditioned enough to gait properly for extended periods I just consider the other gaits cross training. They actually help the horse gait better. The secret is that YOU choose the gait, not the horse.

I saw the video on TV of Champagne Watchout and was sooo impressed. He is truly amazing as are his people. I hope they'll enter again so others with TW's with equal talent will also enter.

[stella]

Becky, I've been using dressage principles for training pasos for over 30 years, but I've adapted it to the breed and gait, because the conformation is different than a trotting horse- also, I "make room" for individual differences.
In most cases where the topline is strong- the topside of the neck is stronger than the underside, and with a straighter back (as most pasos dont show much wither, and it is)with just enough slope in the rear - the point of hip to point of buttock to stifle should more or less form an equilateral triangle....you dont have to drop the head. The center of balance of your paso is already more rearward than the average trotting breed counterpart.

What you want for the proper bascule is for the horse to raise from the topline, the forehand from where the back/shoulder/ neck meet, and you can get that in most pasos if you use your bosal but adjust the chinstrap like a curb chain, and lightly yet abruptly "pop" the horse on one rein when it lays on its forehand- and simultaneously squeeze your legs for the "followthru" of bringing the back legs under, most pasos...because their neck IS set higher in to their bodies...will raise from the ROOT of the NECK, with the shoulder and chest, shifting forehand weight to the now rounded hindquarters, so the entire topline will be rounded.

Right now I am working with a mare that is trotty, mostly because she is VERY high-headed, with a strong underline on the neck, and somewhat ewe-necked(but luckily has some poll), which causes hollowness and an inability to lighten the forehand (so, you need the frontal-diagonal-support of the forehand bodyweight)...hence the trottiness. In her case, I used the bosal chinstrap totally opened to only elicit nose pressure, in combo with a broken mouthpiece bit(to get her to move her head foreward- ewenecked horses tend to want to stargaze and hollow).

In her case, do drop her head so that she has to use her topline more, and only in a convex fashion(rounded), not completely but just enough to get the bascule, and that gets her in gait. Years ago, I was sent a beautiful but totally trotting TWH, who seemed built more like a 3 gaited Saddlebred, and after trying everything else - yup, treating him like a trotter - dropping his head dressage style(while asking for rear impulsion!)- brought him right into gait!

As far as the hunched-over riders, they are sitting on their tailbones instead of their pelvis, and its the body's natural tendency to stay balanced- the shoulders want to come back over and above the hips...and if their feet are way out there (which causes the horse to want to take a bigger step with the rear legs, you've spread your bodyweight, it has to balance your weight too)....it counterweights the legs like a seesaw. Of course, in Walkers, you want a "big lick", so the legs forward help- if they sat on their pelvis, they could still move feet forward and increase their seat weight properly and with better control, while keeping better balance - not to mention, say out of the horse's mouth to help counterbalance. Hope this helps explain some!

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Hey Stella, this is Felix, Caliber has been sent on vacation!!!! and Pleasure tooked his place after a heated debate! not to worry, he will be back! jejeje

Is always great to read your post!!!!! I do enjoy them!!!! thanks!

[BeckyB]

Thank you for the info, Stella. I'm thinking that since we are still working at very basic elements of dressage (everything in a french link bty), I think that I may be stuck in a 'long and low' mind set even though my horse is probably strong enough in the back and the loin (as you mention) to work with a more typical (correct for him) Iberian, higher head set. Hmmm. interesting. Am I reading you right? Much to think about. I am happy that the Iberian-style horse is making a big comeback in the dressage world with its proud head carriage.

I do love the idea that I can now put my gelding back there when I'm ready and desire to, and have a litting trotting horse on occasion. It was a neat feeling to realize that it is all a matter of quietly controlling his positioning -- lowering his head, rounding his back to perfection. Not to say that this would be easy for me!! It was probably just a happy accident when it happened. But it certainly could be done if I worked at it. His paso gait is elegant and is set in stone, and I had never felt him trotty for even one day in his life before this occasion of perfect roundedness and a typical lower dressage frame.

I don't ride him with a barbada. But I will try to ask for and achieve what you have described in ways that he will understand. He is a smart cookie and on good days we speak the same language. Other days he insists that he now speaks Urdu and I must catch up.

[Pasofinoguy]

Did you see that grey horses back ankles touching the ground. Sick. How long do those horses last doing that.

[motorgypsy]

Stella thanks so much. It would be really helpful if you have pictures to illustrate what you are describing along with definitions of some of the terms most of us aren't familiar with. Or perhaps you have a favorite website that has more on this. It's very fascinating!

For those of you interested in teaching your horse to trot on cue or to pace on cue for that matter, just experiment with different head sets, speeds and collection until the horse does the desired gait, then once you've figured out the magic combination you can repeat and give a very noticeable cue each time the horse does the desired gait. Once the horse will do the desired gait on cue you can go on to all sorts of fascinating things. Obviously you want to ride in the paso gait also so the horse will do either when the appropriate cue is given.

The thing about our guys is their ability to do so many variations of gait. We look for the ones who prefer the square isochronal gait but when you watch them play in the pasture you see just how many different gaits they can do. Most of us are satisfied with the wonderful paso gait when we ride, but for those who want more variety - the ability is there. And again - doing other gaits does not "ruin" the paso gait - BUT - training the horse in the trot only WILL make it more difficult for you to get the paso gait because the horse has figured out that you expect the trot when it is under saddle so it will do the trot and not the gait until someone teaches it that gait is wanted when it is under saddle. IF that makes any sense at all. I think probably at least half the trotting paso finos can gait if the right person asks them nicely! :razz: :razz: :razz: