Ride on TOP of the Mountains (not for Edurne)

[CarolU]

Not for those afraid of heights.

This ride was at 7,900 feet. We start at the bottom of White Pine Basin, about 5,000 feet, and climb, climb, climb. When we get on top of the mountain, by riding over the peak, we can view three counties. I have lots of pictures of the ride, but still debating on doing a montage on it. We'll see.

This is the first view, into Utah county and Utah Lake. Notice how high and how steep the mountain is. This slope drops about 400 feet into West Canyon, where becomes less steep and a stand of Aspen is. I would NOT want my horse to trip here. This IS where you learn to pray.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115aWhitePine63.jpg

Tripping is a concern, because THIS is my next picture, over Zar's shoulder of the "trail" up there.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115aWhitePine64Rocks.jpg

Around the ridge, we look OVER the tree tops to see down into Salt Lake Valley

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115aWhitePine80SLValley.jpg

Coming off the top, this Ryan, our Trail Boss, and trusty dog.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115aWhitePine96Ryan.jpg

Looking to the left, we see down Middle Canyon to Tooele Valley (where we started and where I live. (some of you may remember this canyon from autumn pictures I have posted before.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115aWhitePine96Tooele.jpg

And, here is Zar...my incredible horse, on top of the World. We are at 7,900 feet in this picture.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115aWhitePine96Zar.jpg

Going up is not bad...coming down is scarier then heck, and there were places ("Man from Snowy River" places) I got off Zar and we both skied down through the dirt. She did have dirt on her butt from sitting on it sliding down. Not 5 foot slides, not 10 foot slides, but a 30 foot slide with a rocky creek at the bottom. SORRY, NO PICS!!! She is SOME horse.

Survived. No, I didn't take Rose up here.

[appyday]

YIKES

[TrueStepPaso]

Cool!!!!!

[Trudy]

Beautiful pictures Carol.. and not a ride for me. especially the slide down!!

[Edurne]

You're right Carol too high for me. Considering I had a metanoia experience hiking at only 3,400 ft on the Lewis Trail in the Shenandoah.... I should probably reach enlightenment if I rode your trail. Brave girls.... and very good horse.

[Terri]

Wow, what beautiful scenery! Looks like an old western movie where the posse would chase the bad guys. What a place to ride!

[Barbwire]

Those pictures are amazing! It would be a dream come true to ride in scenery like that.

[Laura S]

Gorgeous pics! I was on a trail like that in Wyoming and I loved it, but didn't like those steep trails with drop offs on one side! We climbed to 8,000 feet and met a thunder, lightning, snow and ice storm which made the trail slippery. I loved those trails though. It made you feel like there really are still some wide open and uninhabited places out there. Beautiful pics Carol, thanks for sharing!

[nmcreel]

Hi Carol, Your thread is just in time for my latest photo upload. Since my colt is so young he's mostly packed light loads in the mountains this summer. My niece thought that that was a great deal as you can see by her smile in this photo:

http://bozemanagility.com/Horse%20Photos/HijocarryOnatoWP.jpg

Then when reached a small cabin with a horse corral we let Hijo rest a few minutes and then I rode him up to Windy Pass in the Gallatin Range. He didn't like carrying me as much, but eventually reached the pass at almost 10,000 feet. He was happy to get back to the cabin a mile below and resume his job of carrying lighter riders!

http://bozemanagility.com/Horse%20Photos/HijoWP.jpg

So far we've had a great summer with some short rides into the mountains. I've done a little arena work on collection and gait, but only a few minutes at a time. Later this week I'm planning on a short Poker Ride so that he gets to be with other horses. It's been a lonely summer on the trails this year for a horse. Fortunately he takes comfort in the dogs and when he balks on a narrow section of trail will always follow them if they go first.

[jodiTowne]

Guess I'm not a mountain girl after all.

[dana]

What an Awesome country you live in Carol. that Zar must be worth her weight in Gold to take you there and back with no worries!

[Pasogirlz]

Once again awesome scenery. I can smell the fresh air from here.

[CarolU]

Thank you all. This was the most challenging and technical ride I have done in a long, long time. Very steep, very bad drop offs, and the trail down was the steepest I've ever ridden. Zar handled everything wonderfully as did Judi's Paso Fino, CJ. These two horses have certainly dispelled a lot of what people here thought they knew about our breed. I can't tell you how many times we've been told that people thought they all were those "hot little show horses."

You know, the BEST way to be an ambassador for the breed is let people SEE them like this. I don't do test rides on Zar, but CJ has given over 2 dozen people their first Paso grin this summer. Pretty cool!

I can't say enough good about Zar. There were times I was afraid, but she never was...just calm and sure. Love this horse.

[Soltera]

CarolU - what incredible pictures! Very inspiring, and terrific composition! But it leaves me with a few questions, if I may.

I wonder what the statistics are for horses tripping, spooking or otherwise going off a mountain? Have you heard of this happening? I'm not great at heights but I know I'd rather trust a four-legged than my own two when decsending long distance - makes my knees weak just to thing about it. Are my fears ungrounded, do you suppose? On the July 14th Piedmont PFHA ride at Moses Cone there was a point in the trail with a sheer drop-off of a hundred feet, at least, yet several riders walked their horses to the edge as though 'twere in the middle of a sandy arena. I wanted SO much to join them, but didn't know how to judge the relative dangers. That was my first trail ride on Amigo, so I didn't go, preferring to get to know him better first, but what do you think is the likelihood of a tragic incident? I know it's based on horse/rider training, personalities, windy day vs. still day, possibilities of birds and rabbits making a sudden appearance, etc., but just generally speaking, was I just being a little chicken Bok! Bok! Bok!...?

How old is Zar The Magnificent? Have you ever wrapped her or put on skid boots, or have you been tempted to do so? Do you train for the :shock: narrow ribbons of death :shock: or rely on the solid foundations of training you already give her?

Well, anyway, I didn't mean to write a novel here...just, what more can you say, what advice can you give about 'Snowy River' riding, please?

[Helene]

Beautiful pictures and scenery, but definitely NOT for me. Little drop offs scare me. I'm a "flatlander"......A beach ride would be a dream ride for me....
I admire your courage....

[Barbwire]

I notice that Zar doesn't have a breastplate on. Here, we use them all the time when we climb hills. That saddle must fit her really well.

[motorgypsy]

With our horses it depends on their shape Barb. The ones who have well sprung ribs and are larger through the ribs in the middle don't get much saddle slip but we have one mare with a really slim barrel despite having 5 foals and I would definitely put one on her if we did any steep riding. The rest of ours are more likely to have the saddle slip a bit forward but we do use a snug back cinch so the saddle doesn't tip or dig into their withers when we go down steep hills. We have red clay and when it's wet it's like grease. And they do amazingly well in the mountains even on that stuff. I didn't realize just how sure footed they were until I was up on our farm walking the side of the mountain in the rain with them. It was all I could do to stay on two feet and they were running around like it was nothing to them. I was truly amazed but it did give me more confidence in their ability in difficult terrain.

[CarolU]

CarolU - what incredible pictures! Very inspiring, and terrific composition! But it leaves me with a few questions, if I may.

I wonder what the statistics are for horses tripping, spooking or otherwise going off a mountain? Have you heard of this happening? I'm not great at heights but I know I'd rather trust a four-legged than my own two when decsending long distance - makes my knees weak just to thing about it. Are my fears ungrounded, do you suppose? On the July 14th Piedmont PFHA ride at Moses Cone there was a point in the trail with a sheer drop-off of a hundred feet, at least, yet several riders walked their horses to the edge as though 'twere in the middle of a sandy arena. I wanted SO much to join them, but didn't know how to judge the relative dangers. That was my first trail ride on Amigo, so I didn't go, preferring to get to know him better first, but what do you think is the likelihood of a tragic incident? I know it's based on horse/rider training, personalities, windy day vs. still day, possibilities of birds and rabbits making a sudden appearance, etc., but just generally speaking, was I just being a little chicken Bok! Bok! Bok!...?

How old is Zar The Magnificent? Have you ever wrapped her or put on skid boots, or have you been tempted to do so? Do you train for the :shock: narrow ribbons of death :shock: or rely on the solid foundations of training you already give her?

Well, anyway, I didn't mean to write a novel here...just, what more can you say, what advice can you give about 'Snowy River' riding, please?

First of all, your fears are not unfounded. A 3-year-old was killed here a month ago on the same trail I took Jan and then Rose Mary on, from South Willow to North Willow, when his bomb-proof horse tripped and crushed him. His picture in the paper was heart breaking, an adorable little cowboy in a great big hat. Carol Steele (PasoLucy on here) lost a mare that fell down a mountain a few years ago. It does happen. But likewise, I lost a friend and co-worker about 10 years ago who tripped while hiking and fell 150 feet, and my niece's first love fell in Zions National Park, 700 feet. Both died.

I would tell you only that I KNOW horses are a lot more surefooted than I am!!! They have four feet and can have three on the ground - a stable tripod - whenever they move one. So, they are much safer then humans. If you want REALLY safe, you ride a mule. Their eyes sit farther on the sides of their heads and can see where they place their back feet. That is why they are used in the Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon and elsewhere. Those who ride them in Back Country Horsemen swear by them.

As far as I know, there are no statistics on where/how horse related injuries and deaths occur. I just know they happen every day.

I will say that every bad trip I've had was on flat ground or in an arena. I've never had a bad trip in the mountains. I think the horses know the trail is rocky and steep and are extra careful. A good trail horse puts their head DOWN and LOOKS to see where to place their feet. They are careful! I've seen two HORRIBLE trail horses (both Paso Finos) that site-see while trail riding and trip all the time. So, it is horse-dependent. You need a horse that will flat walk on a loose rein and not crowd the horse in front so they can see the trail.

You know, horses have no depth perception, so a drop of 10 feet is the same as a drop of 100 feet to them. They don't 'think' that they are at 8,000 feet and it is 400 feet straight down and panic, like we do. A horse that is afraid of a bridge, is afraid of it regardless of how high it is over the river.

Zar is now 14. The reason I didn't ride her down the "Snowy River" slide had more to do with my fears and not having a croupper or back cinch, then not trusting her. And NO I would not take any new horse on such a ride. This is Rosie's first year trail riding and I only take her on trails I know are pretty safe. After you build their confidence and trust, they will do/go wherever you ask, and trust that you won't ask them to do more then they can handle. As an example, on my ride with Rose and Rosie, I led her to the two things she was afraid of (both on the way up, she was afraid of nothing after those two alien stumps) and led her down the steepest hill, where she was unsure of herself. My horses live in the very flat valley here, so hills and mountains are not something they learn on their own.

There are birds, deer, squirrels and lizards all along the trails. I wouldn't take a spooky horse in the mountains. In the other range there are mountain bikes, hikers, cows, dirt bikes and some ATVs. Horses should be trained to be prepared for all of them. Including dangling ropes, broken bridles, flopping water bottles and packs, packs getting caught on trees, etc. There isn't much I don't train for. If you are a good Leader for your horse, prove that you are trustworthy, and never FORCE them, they soon learn to trust your judgment. (That's why I do Parelli with them - a game called the Squeeze Game teaches the horse to go through tight places without panic.)

Everything we do involves some danger...even sitting still. You can let it stop you from climbing the mountain, or you can accept the risk and experience the view at the top.

I have nice wide breast collars that I use with some horses/saddles. I've never needed one with Zar and the Ansur.

I did have Mauricio Villa (Kuda Tack) make me some 9' reins for trail riding. I STRONGLY recommend anyone doing a lot of trail riding do the same. It sure saves your back leaning over the horse, and you don't have to come out of the saddle to let them drink. Mauricio is fast and dependable, I think the special order (3 sets) took 3 weeks. From Colombia! Not bad!

[motorgypsy]

regarding reins, the halterlady.com will make you any length you want of the rope clip on reins. I got some long ones and put grab knots in them so I knew where my hands were without looking down.

Such gorgeous pictures!!! Thanks so much to all of you for sharing!!!

[Carol D.]

Beautiful country, Carol U, thanks for sharing. And much steeper than I would want to ride anymore. The riding I did do in the Cascades in the 90s, it was indeed the downhill that was scary. Just not up for it any more but there sure is some stunning country to be seen from the back of a horse.

What is the elevation where you live, Carol? Must be pretty high?

[Soltera]

First of all, thank you for your sweet time and energy sharing your knowledge with us! Now...

CarolU says
killed here a month ago on the same trail I took Jan and then Rose Mary on, from South Willow to North Willow, when his bomb-proof horse tripped and crushed him. His picture in the paper was heart breaking...

Ooohhh, honey, that’s really not the answer I was looking for…..(shudder)

Around here, several folks are killed every year walking next to waterfalls, but I don’t think our mountains are steep enough for much more than that. We’re mostly in the 2,000 to 3,000 ft range, and much softer (way older) mountains. One of the oldest chains in the world, in fact. We used to be high as the alps, they say!

I used to ride mules a lot in eastern Kentucky, where it’s a lot steeper, but never knew WHY they were safer – your depth of knowledge is incredible! We’ve all, I suppose, ridden the dreaded “tripper” in the ring, and know that literally sinking feeling of a horse going to it’s knees. And there’s nothing quite like a horse tripping over a jump… somersaulting is especially fun…that’s why I’m careful not to go too close to drop-offs. Even though equines have “full-time-4WH” as it were, there are just so many (how did you put it?) “alien stumps”! Amigo is a head-down traveler, and not much spooky, and he and I have several rides between us now, so next time we go to Moses Cone Park I’ll get you a picture of us by the drop-off. I may or may not be actually on him, though. :D

So, you’ve brought up some excellent points about what-all to train for: I’ve added several items to my own mental list. How would you advise getting into Parellii? Video tape? Clinics are nice, but probably not an option this year. Books? The Squeeze Game sounds like a must have.

As for equipment, I always ride with a breast collar, they’re no trouble, and I love the “look”, but have not yet made a crupper. You like a crup strap better than breeching (think harness, kind of like what PF trainers use to tie the tail)? I’m using extra long reins already. Love those things.


You know, horses have no depth perception, so a drop of 10 feet is the same as a drop of 100 feet to them. They don't 'think' that they are at 8,000 feet and it is 400 feet straight down and panic, like we do. A horse that is afraid of a bridge, is afraid of it regardless of how high it is over the river.

And

Everything we do involves some danger...even sitting still. You can let it stop you from climbing the mountain, or you can accept the risk and experience the view at the top.


That’s exactly the type of “depth perception of life” I should work on improving. I’m really not afraid of death (my “mansion” is waiting!), but as sole head-of-household, etc., risks have to be chosen carefully, and measured with a spoon both wanton and precise. Sigh, so many falls, so many somersaults. I really despise picking myself up off the ground only to see the horse with a bloody place. Never really hurt a horse badly, but that darn jumping is hard on the critters. It always feels so unfair for me to risk THEIR lives and wellbeing for MY mere enjoyment/employment! That's one reason I quit the hunter/jumper life, and concentrated on my true love, dressage. Pasos are so perfect for the trail, but again, what price, that view?

Anyway, thanks again for your help. You and Zar are a real inspiration!

[CarolU]

I live in Erda, elevation is 4,500 feet. I'm only 6 miles from the south shore of the Great Salt Lake. It's amazing what location means around here. The lake moderates my winters and I'm 15-20 degrees warmer then my best friend 25 miles from me, at the same elevation.

The mountain behind my house, Mt. Nelson, is a small one, only 8,466 feet. Deseret Peak, which is in my Stansbury rides is at 11,033 feet, and the highest point in our county.

Funny, but when I was a kid, my dad carried an altimeter with him everywhere, so we ALWAYS knew how high (or low, in Death Valley) we were. Now we carry a GPS.

[CarolU]

Soltera, thank you for your complement...maybe it's all just a sign that I'm old now! ;-)

My only bad trips have been going around barrels (turned into a horse/human somersault) and trotting down a dirt road. Two of the friends I trail ride with all the time had trips this summer, and both were on flat ground for the same reason, the horse was looking around and not paying attention to his footing. I think a few slight trips should warn you that your horse is NOT paying attention and to do something to focus him back on what he is supposed to be doing (not sightseeing!).

Believe me, riding with mules now all summer, I know LOTS more about them then I used to!

The breast collars that look really nice are not the best for trail riding on steep terrain. You are better off without one then to use a narrow one that bites into the horse's shoulders or rubs them raw. Nice fleece or soft neoprene collars work best for trail riding long hours in steep terrain. Whenever you have a question, just look at the tack used by regular Endurance riders. I think they're specialists now in safe tack.

Parelli's have grown and learned a lot over the years. And they've used that to add to and reshape their program. Rather then buy his old Natural Horsemanship book because it is cheap (and pretty hard to follow) I'd recommend two new DVDs they just came out with. There are actually 10 in a set, but two should give you what you need to know, and let you decide if you want to continue then with a levels program.

First know that Parelli's aren't about training horses. They're about training people to become horsemen and train their own horse.

One DVD is on Horsenality (personality) and it is a short course on different kinds of horse behavior, how to recognize it and what to do about it. If you want to understand WHY your horse does things and how you correct or change it, it is an excellent resource. The second DVD is the 7 Games. It includes how to train them and WHY you do them. People erroneously think that because they're called 'games' they aren't worth anything, but Parelli's believe you and your horse should ENJOY doing things together. Once you learn them on the ground, you use them in the saddle. The seven games are Friendly (most important), Porcupine (give to pressure), Driving (move from pressure), Circling (not lunging), Yo-Yo (backing away and coming to you, safety), Sideways (sidestepping), and Squeeze (moving under, over, or around objects. ) You can turn them into the 7 tortures if you overdo them and don't stay creative with them.

Everything you do with your horse (even now) goes to one of the seven Games. By learning to have soft feel, hands that close slowly and open quickly, you learn to be very VERY light and get a super responsive horse that TRUSTS you.

Let me know if you are interested. I am in the Savvy Club and can buy them at a 25% discount if you're interested.

[lovetogait]

cAROL - your description of your rides is awe inspiring and it is amazing
how much you know about your terrain. You are a great ambassador
for the paso fino breed and also inspirational for those of us who haven't done a challenging ride for quite a while.

My move to Tennessee is upcoming very shortly and I am really hoping
one of my palomino fillies has the mind and the conformation to become
a really good horse for these types of trails.

Thanks for the really good read. Your horse is exquisite!

Wendy

[CarolU]

Thank you Wendy...and all of you. I look forward to YOUR trail ride pictures!

I have to admit that Sarah and I are REALLY SPOILED in our location and the ready availability of public lands (thank ALL of you) to ride and enjoy. But a trail ride really is a day with your horse. I time spent exploring and seeing really the BEST thing about Paso Finos, their willingness, even eagerness to see what is over the next hill, to eagerly approach the next turn in the trail, to go, go, go. Such great trail companions.

[Edurne]

great posts Carol...... as well as some very exciting photos. Cheers.

[Cindy]

If horses have no depth perception, how do they know how far to jump over a wide oxer? And why do the wild mustangs that live in mountainous areas not jump off cliffs thinking that they can make it to the next level? And how do they manage to stop right before hitting the fence when they are running in the pasture?

[Soltera]

CarolU: I totally agree that attention is the ticket, for horse and rider both.

There are tons of Buddhist texts, zen koans, etc, that teach very clearly about how "attention" is one of the first elements of your beginning work on self improvement. In fact, most of the philosophies of self I’ve read about deal with “attention” as a subject. Good reading, indeed. Should someone write a treatise on “Attention qua Attention as an Element of Equine Spiritual Self-Cultivation”? :D …nah….

Most of the horse trips I’ve had have been trying horses out when picking my string for summer lesson horses: I put them through the ringer before the kids get near them! Or teaching lesson horses to go over cavaletti…nothing like a stumble to get a smart one’s attention.

All the breastcollars I use are padded, fuzzy and washable. Especially washable. I must have 10 sets of halter fuzzies, too, and tend to wrap them around everything, especially the strap that leads from the breastcollar to the girth. Even the bridle gets some fuzzies sometimes. We kind of look like a wooly worm going down the trail sometimes if I get carried away, but just can’t stand the thought of a rub. In fact, everything the Endurance riders use seems the most logical and horse friendly stuff on the market. I devour every picture I see of those riders.

I PMd you about the DVDs, and thanks.

Cindy: the way you set a horse’s body frame, momentum, stride length, and speed coming up to the jump largely determines the scope and depth of the actual space through which you travel, but the horse “sees” all the jumps as you go around the course, so maybe that’s part of it. However, you can even jump blind horses (I used to do just that) , so I know depth perception is not jump critical. But as for the mustang example….I always thought horses had no depth perception for 5-10 feet in front of them, but beyond that they could see depth.

CarolU? Do you know?

[CarolU]

Horses have distance perception, but not depth. They can see a fence in the distance and know how many strides they are to it. But when they look at a puddle or in a ditch, they can't tell how deep it is.

There were some good articles on horse's vision posted when we had this discussion before.

[Cindy]

From Merriam Websters dictionary. The definition of depth perception:

Main Entry: depth perception
Function: noun
: the ability to judge the distance of objects and the spatial relationship of objects at different distances


There is no diference in distance perception and depth perception. They are the same thing. A horse cannot have one and not the other.

Soltera, I grew up jumping horses. I know what setting a horse up for a jump is. It is judging the distance to the jump and adjusting the horse's speed accordingly so that they are in correct stride when you get to your spot. It has nothing to do with telling the horse how big or wide the jump is. Why? Because they can SEE it. And you are telling me that you have personally jumped blind horses? Is there documentation of that because I have never heard of jumping blind horses nor do I know anyone who would even attempt to jump a blind horse.

Horses HAVE depth perception. If they did not, they would run into the fence.

[CarolU]

I didn't make this up.

http://www.showhorsepromotions.com/horsessee.htm

http://www.bayequest.info/horsetalk/mailbox.htm

http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/equine3.pdf

From this article: http://www.wheatmark.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=1587365413&Category_Code=PET&Store_Code=BS
Knowing how well a horse sees you is extremely important. As prey animals, their eyes are set on the sides of their heads, which gives them some unique vision qualities. Horses have a great field of vision. Each eye sees a different side of the horse. This means that the majority of what a horse sees, it sees with monocular vision. (Monocular vision is everything you see with one eye.) That vision isn't quite as clear as ours and it doesn't give a horse depth perception. Depth perception tells you how far away an object is, which is very important when it comes to touching. For example, cover one eye and try to play catch with a friend. It won't work well.

Read the definition of depth perception. It is different then distance perception:

http://www.abledata.com/abledata_docs/Distance_Perception.htm

[Cindy]

I can Google too.

http://www.horsewyse.com.au/howhorsessee.html

Which says:

A horse's large eye is an advantage as it enables him to detect the slightest motion which is why windy days make most horses uneasy...too many moving things! The horse moves its head in order to bring the object into its binocular field, which also gives better depth perception. This offers a better view, as while the horse has both monocular and binocular vision, he probably can't utilize both at the same time, hence he raises his head to switch to both (binocular) eyes. Say you are riding along, your horse nice and relaxed...he is probably using his monocular vision. Suddenly he spots an unusual object ahead and instantly raises his head and pricks his ears. This allows him to look down his nose and employ his binocular vision. If the object is on the ground, the horse will lower his head, again in order to look down his nose and use both eyes for a clear view.


http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/equine3.pdf

Which says:

Horses also differ in how they see objects by having the ability to see with each eye (monocular
vision) independently so they may see what is happening on each side of their body. This vision is flat
visions unlike the three-dimensional vision humans have. It is used more for identifying movement at far
distances. The horse’s eyes “have an incredible ability to detect motion. The horse can see a small bird
flutter in a tree across a canyon. Movement may mean danger and danger, of course, means move the
other way at top speed” (Miller, 1999, p. 25). Horses also have the ability to view in front with both eyes
(binocular vision) which gives three-dimensional vision with depth perception. If we understand this
aspect of a horse’s vision, we will allow the horse to view new objects in a more comfortable manner.
Usually the horse will want to put its nose down to view and touch something that it will walk over. This
allows the horse to use the binocular vision with better depth perception (McGreevy, 2004). If
something scares the horse from behind it usually will jump forward and spin around so that it can use
binocular vision. The horse cannot use both monocular and binocular visions at the same time, but must
switch from one type to another by position of the eyes and head.

http://staplhorse.tripod.com/physical.html

Which says:

Horses have both monocular and binocular vision. When a horse looks to either side, each eye moves and sees independently. This results in lack of depth perception. When your horse looks straight ahead, both fields of vision overlap and his vision becomes binocular, just like humans, and he gains some depth perception. In order to bring objects into focus, the horse will move his head up or down

http://www.irishscientist.ie/2003/contents.asp?contentxml=03p134a.xml&contentxsl=is03pages.xsl

Which says:

However, it is known from studies involving humans and small laboratory animals (mice and rats) that some gender differences in cognitive function may also affect performance where tasks involve elements of depth perception. We are attempting to get a better understanding of how horses actually perceive images of objects (like fences in show-jumping) and if male and female horses might deal with these perceptions differently. Visuo-spatial ability allows individuals (humans, horses and other animals) to interpret distance and depth perception and keep track of the spatial environment - in other words it is how we know where we are!


http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info-visualworld.htm

Which says:

Horses have the largest eyes of almost any mammal, with a diameter about twice that of humans. The eyes are positioned laterally but they project forward. This gives them a panoramic view of the world. Each eye has a horizontal field of approximately 190o and a vertical field of about 180o. Vision with both eyes gives them an almost completely spherical field of view. However, they have two narrow blind spots, one directly behind the head and the other just in front of and below the nose. You need to be aware of these blind spots as you approach an animal, particularly from the rear. You shouldn't approach a horse directly from the rear. When you pass behind a horse, speak to let him know you are there. Because their eyes face forward, horses have an overlapping binocular field of view that can aid in their ability to see depth (see Figure 2).



And:

Depth Perception
Humans use both monocular and binocular cues to make judgments about distance, although the binocular cues give the most accurate information. The sense of "real" depth that we get from old-fashioned stereoscopes and 3-D movies relies on these binocular cues. Because of their lateral eyes, it was assumed that horses could only use monocular depth cues, such as relative size or perspective. However, their overlapping binocular field allows for the possibility of true stereoscopic vision, and research has shown that they do have stereopsis, three-dimensional vision (see Figure 3). They are not nearly as accurate as humans, but their stereoacuity is sufficient for them to be able to judge height and distance very well when they have to clear fences.



I think that is suficient so I will stop Googling now.

[CarolU]

"Depth Perception" has very specific and limited meaning. This is the distance straight ahead of the viewer's eye, toward or into an object or surface. By definition, depth is looking straight into a hole or tube and estimating forward distances. Doing this accurately requires binocular stereoscopic vision (stereopsis) and may be more difficult or less accurate for people lacking stereopsis. Their depth vision must rely on visual cues other than stereopsis.

This is why, people like ME have poor depth perception. There IS a difference:

"Distance Perception" is the all-inclusive term for seeing and recognizing distances between people and/or objects in any and all directions relative to a viewer's eye. It is the ability to view objects near to far, and at varying angles, and to be able to accurately and quickly estimate: (1) distance from a person's eye to a particular object; and (2) distances between specific objects no matter what the directions and distances (outward from viewer's eye, left-to-right distances between objects).

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115CarolZarCrestSml-med.jpg

[Cindy]

This is why, people like ME have poor depth perception.



I fail to see how your depth perception has anything to do with a discussion of horses. But if you want to compare yourself, you say that you have poor depth perception. I do as well. Can you tell the difference in 10 feet and 100 feet? I can.

[Mellifluous]

Sounds like we are awfully close to agreeing to disagree? :D

Or is that just wishful thinking on my part???

[ErinC]

well now that my contacts want to fall out from reading,
I have learned sooooooo much on this...
point made.
thanks!

;-)

[Soltera]

How on earth do ya'll stay up so late? I'm glad you did, though. This is a fascinating thread, and I guess we'll need to come to some consensus about how horses see...how can we not know this? It's odd how so much hard-core, professional googling can come to such odds!

Cindy, I'm truely sorry if I sounded like I was lecturing you - it's a bad failing of mine (as you've probably noticed already), and I promise to work hard on not posting preachily from now on. Sorry...really!

I was meaning to say (which now I know you know!) that when you start to take off, if you feel the horse is not set up to go wide enough, you can get him just that little bit flatter with your aids to get him there, or you can shorten him, too, for a combination; then once in the air you're pretty well set.

I rode in southern Spain for an academic year, about 3 times/week. We worked out this deal whereby I'd get private dressage lessons in exchange for riding whichever horse needed riding. There was a gelding there, Aripe (ah REE peh), who was completely unable to see due to cataracts (he would run smack into things if you were not VERY careful leading him, and he went everywhere slowly from the ground), but had been a big time winner in Gran Prix showjumping. His jumping career was over, and he was my mount for training him in dressage.

Sometimes, as a break from dressage, my instructor wanted me to jump him over cavaletti, just little x's, and very low level gymnastic combo's. We used a different saddle and bit, and shorter stirrups (which I supposed gave him the hint that this was a cavaletti day) and Aripe trusted me to cue him to jump at the right stride. There was never a problem, rarely a rub, and he definately enjoyed it. The first time I was asked to do this I was very skeptical, but you know the old-school European/British culture: students are not exactly encouraged to express doubts about the instructor's judgement (I'd have quit riding there if there had been any abuse). I just used the same aids that one would upon takeoff if a sighted horse seemed to need some more oomph. vertically or horizontally, over an obstacle.

[CarolU]

Soltera, where did you ride at in Spain? My sister in lives in Marbella, and I've riden there and visited an academy near Gibralter...don't remember exactly where.

My other favorite NH is in Spain, Klaus Hempfling, but not southern Spain. I'd love to go to his school sometime. He teaches natural collection that I think is more what is needed for Paso Finos then that taught by Parelli's, which is geared to...um...nice way to say this....horses with lower head carriages. :smile:

[Cindy]

Soltera, I was thinkning about jumping a blind horse after you posted that. My thoughts were that you could jump one that had jumped before going blind but only over very small jumps as he would have no way to know the scope of the jump and would most likely always jump the same height and distance when cued to jump. Did you find this to be true?

[Soltera]

My other favorite NH is in Spain, Klaus Hempfling....He teaches natural collection that I think is more what is needed for Paso Finos then that taught by Parelli's, which is geared to...um...nice way to say this....horses with lower head carriages. :smile:

Wow, can you recommend a video/book/other by him? My google finger is itching to go see, but would rather see what you like first. Are the Parelli videos still good for Pasos? Which would you recommend? Or is this fodder for another thread? :-?

I attended the U of Sevilla for a year, and rode at a small, private stable outside of town on the bus route. The BHA instructor, Jeffrey Jeffers, taught in Spanish since there were always students watching my lesson, but was able to explain tough stuff to me in English - whew!

Their whole barn management system was peculiar: no pasture land (Europe is very crowded relative to the USA), so the horses lived in tie stalls 24/7/365. That meant each one had exercise at least every other day, either a free lunge in the arena or riding, plus a roll in the sand box. Tied to the wall for years and years. Rather.... different. The trail rides were nice, though, through olive groves, with shepherds watching sheep...right out of a history book.

We'll have to talk about Spain sometime - swap stories!

And to Cindy - we must be mind readers....see the post above your post... :D

[dana]

The first time I was asked to do this I was very skeptical, but you know the old-school European/British culture: students are not exactly encouraged to express doubts about the instructor's judgement (I'd have quit riding there if there had been any abuse). I just used the same aids that one would upon takeoff if a sighted horse seemed to need some more oomph. vertically or horizontally, over an obstacle.
Wow! do i know where you're coming from! i REALLY need to sit down one day over coffee with you! Grin!

[CarolU]

Here is a website about his clinics

http://www.hempfling.com/

You can usually find his book, Dancing with Horses at Amazon.

http://www.equibooks.com/dancehorses.html

I have not seen the video, but the book is great.

My sister rides at a stable in Monda, in the mountains of Andalucia. It is run by an English woman. I'll try to get her website.

Also, she is now riding Paso Finos in Spain at Wendy Jeffers place in Ronda.

[Soltera]

Dana: You mean about the different teaching styles? Yes, if you've never been under the tutelage of a European riding master, you just haven't.....er....lived!?

CarolU - the pictures on his website are incredible...ground-driving piaffe with a rope on the neck? Yeah, that rocks. Looks like I'll be going to the local bookstore today....

I wonder if Wendy Jeffers could possibly be related to the Jeffery Jeffers that I rode with? Hm....

And have we come to any consensus about the depth perception?

[Cindy]

And have we come to any consensus about the depth perception?
_________________


I have. :rofl

[CarolU]

And have we come to any consensus about the depth perception?

Depth perception and distance perception are two different things. Believe me, I have no depth perception, but good distance perception.

Did you ever wonder WHY horses bang their noses or heads on things?

[CarolU]

Perhaps if I list the things I can't do, you will understand the difference. I can't catch a ball, hit a ball in tennis, or putt a ball on a putting green. I can't walk down steep uneven terrain. I can't ski on uneven terrain, especially in flat light conditions. I trip going upstairs, and going down I will fall if the steps aren't 'normal' depth steps.

I can see how far away a red light or a stop sign is. I can see how wide a street or river is.

There is an old saying that you can lead a cow up stairs, but not down. Now you know why.

[CarolU]

Soltera...this is Suzanne's website for her riding stable in Monda: http://www.horseridingmarbella.com You will probably recognize the country side and olive and almond orchards in the slide show.

[Cindy]

Did you ever wonder WHY horses bang their noses or heads on things?


Horses bang their heads and noses on things because they have a blind spot immediately in front of them and close distances. It has nothing to do with their perception. If you read those links that I posted I think the blind spots are mentioned in most of them.

[Cindy]

I can't walk down steep uneven terrain. I can't ski on uneven terrain, especially in flat light conditions. I trip going upstairs, and going down I will fall if the steps aren't 'normal' depth steps.


Horses CAN do all these things. With the exception that I have never seen them ski. And I would imagine that they could catch balls if they had the proper equipment for doing so.

And what you can or cannot do with cows is irrelevent to what you can and cannot do with horses. I have walked horses both up AND dwon stairs with no problem.

[CarolU]

Well Cindy, I've seen PLENTY of green horses that are un-confident and some are scared senseless about stepping DOWN uneven terrain and steps. Horses that didn't learn this following their dam, have to learn it later in life. I see it all the time in flat-land horses. My husband brought Santiago up on the deck, thought he was real cute, until he couldn't get him to step down off it. And I can't even begin to count how many horses won't step in puddles. This is Rosie's first season trail riding and she has major issues with steep hills and step-downs.

But go ahead, believe whatever you want.

[ErinC]

Ya know the world would be very boring place if we all had the same thoughts/idea....

it is ok to form your own belief..

So let’s,
let the people of the board do just that! OK!

[CarolU]

I fully agree with you Erin. There is only ONE thing I would like to point out, and that is when YOUR horse won't go down steps or a step down on the trail, or is afraid getting out of the trailer, don't do as thousands do and beat the horse for it. They have to learn to step down. Likewise with a horse that is used to trailers with ramps, will often fall getting out of a trailer without a ramp the first few times. So be careful.

[ErinC]

yes as with everything in training,
Repetition is the key!

[Cindy]

There is only ONE thing I would like to point out, and that is when YOUR horse won't go down steps or a step down on the trail, or is afraid getting out of the trailer, don't do as thousands do and beat the horse for it.

I am dumbfounded. How does a discussion about horse's eyesight get turned into people beating their horses? I have never beat a horse to do anything. Especially something they are unsure or afraid of. And, yes, horses who have never traversed hills and trailers and steps have some trepidation when first asked to do these things. I live in hills as well. Can't get a horse into my round pen without going down one. And, yes, I too have flatlanders come in for training who have never before seen a hill. And, yes, they have to LOOK at it for a bit and then test the waters. That is usually the first day. The second day they pretty much just go on down the hill. If they could not see it, they would not need to LOOK and I would not need to let them LOOK. But they need to LOOK so that they can SEE where they are going. If I thought they had no depth perception I certainly would not trust them on MY trails. They would fall down and take me right with them. And I prefer not to fall down hills.

I think the moral of this thread is, if you are riding in the mountains, don't ride Carol as she will trip and fall. :rofl

[Cindy]

Since mules were mentioned earlier in regard to riding in the Grand Canyon and their sight being somehow different, I went Googling again. I Googled Grand Canyon horses. I found nothing that said that the reason for using mules had anything at all to do with their sight. What I found was what I had always heard that mules are more surefooted than horses and they tend to spook less. I also found that horses traverse the Grand Canyon just fine. And that in fact wild horses have lived there. Don't know if they still do. That would require yet another Google adventure. But what I did find was this cool website about a man that lived and worked in and around the Canyon in the early 1900's. (he rode horses, by the way). And I thought that many of you might enjoy perusing this website. The page that I am posting is about the legend of the miniature horses that supposedly lived in the Canyon. But go to the main page and check out the rest of the site. It looks pretty cool. Here is the site:

http://library.nau.edu/speccoll/exhibits/lauzon/pages/grandcanyon2.htm

And then I got to thinking, mules are equines just like horses, zebras and donkeys, why would their sight be different? :roll: Can ya'll tell it's raining here today? :rofl

[CarolU]

Since mules were mentioned earlier in regard to riding in the Grand Canyon and their sight being somehow different, I went Googling again. I Googled Grand Canyon horses. I found nothing that said that the reason for using mules had anything at all to do with their sight. What I found was what I had always heard that mules are more surefooted than horses and they tend to spook less. I also found that horses traverse the Grand Canyon just fine. And that in fact wild horses have lived there. Don't know if they still do. That would require yet another Google adventure. But what I did find was this cool website about a man that lived and worked in and around the Canyon in the early 1900's. (he rode horses, by the way). And I thought that many of you might enjoy perusing this website. The page that I am posting is about the legend of the miniature horses that supposedly lived in the Canyon. But go to the main page and check out the rest of the site. It looks pretty cool. Here is the site:

http://library.nau.edu/speccoll/exhibits/lauzon/pages/grandcanyon2.htm

And then I got to thinking, mules are equines just like horses, zebras and donkeys, why would their sight be different? :roll: Can ya'll tell it's raining here today? :rofl

All I can tell you is what was told to me. Because their eyes stick out farther on their heads, their field of vision is greater behind then a horse's is. So they can SEE where they place their back feet while facing straight ahead. A horse can't.

Now, please send rain.

[Cindy]

Now, please send rain

Nope. Keeping it for a while. :D

[CarolU]

Now, please send rain

Nope. Keeping it for a while. :D

:hitting

[motorgypsy]

Well guys I finally found the thread.

In case you don't want to read the details, in light my educational background in the physics of optics I believe at this point that horses have a small field of true depth perception that is not based on motion or other planar cues such as size and angles.

I took two courses (undergrad and graduate) in optics and one in particular dealt with a lot of information on making 3D movies and the different ways we perceive depth. The professor actually developed two different types of 3D movies. Given the physical structure of the horse and the position of the eyes I have no doubt that they do have they physical capability for depth perception as well as distance perception if you wish to give the two different types of cueings a different name. This is based on the physics of the eyes and the fact that in the horse in the front they are focusing together. Now if they wander all over the place like a lizard it would be logical to assume that if they had any momentary depth perception at all it would be very minimal. But their eyes don't do this. But it is also worth considering that despite the physical capability for having depth perception, they may not perceive depth the way we do because their brain may pick up only one image at a time. Studies appear to have been done that indicate that this is not true though.

If someone publishes a study using some type of brain scan that shows that each eye is signaling independently and "one at a time" at all times then I will revise my opinion. But at this point from all the data I've studied on 3D vision and my experience with horses I think they have a very small field with true depth perception.

It's really interesting to read anecdotal information about why this is true or why it is not true, but to truly answer the question definitively we have to find a study like the one I mentioned using actual signals to the brain of the horse. Without this we're all speculating - which is fun but when speculating noone is ever really right or wrong. At least in this case we very likely will either find that a study has been done or one will be done in the future that will be conclusive.

Now more on what I perceive they see. I imagine it's like a very nearsighted person using a pair of binoculars with a very narrow field of vision. You have this very clear focused area with a blind spot down where your nose is blocking the view with the entire rest of your vision which goes all the way around your body is quite blurry. When you walk along you see motion on both sides but you aren't really focusing on it. It's just out there letting you know if anything is moving and you don't really pay much attention to it unless something does move. The small center part though gives you the stereo clear 3D vision right in front using the area right around your pupil if I remember correctly. This is crystal clear. You use smell, sound and all sorts of other cues to tell you all about what's around you but if you really want to know what something is you have to move your head and look right at it. Then you'll know how far it is and where it is even if it's not moving and you'll be able to analyze the details of this thing.

I'm looking forward to reading a lot more on this topic because it is very important for us to know not only the physical capabilities of our horses but also how they perceive their world - and besides that - it's really cool.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Did you ever wonder WHY horses bang their noses or heads on things?


I have noticed that too, sometimes could be a headache other times Tooth ache caused by bitting, vertebrates out!!!!! defending from hands...