Obtaining signatures of stallion owners...

[Terry Wallace]

I'm posting for a friend who is having trouble obtaining a breeder certificate signature from a "high profile" Paso stallion owner.

Problem...
Foal owner is trying to get a signature for the breeding certificate from an AI breeding over a year ago. The foal is getting close to three months old and the owner wants to get him registered. Owner has already paid the PFHA for registration application & DNA is done.
IF the signature is not secured within the time allowed, the owner must then reapply and PAY again for registration, etc. and start the whole process over again.

What are his options? The PFHA says they cannot help him get the signature....this does not sound right to me. I had gone through this a few years back in which I had to threaten to file a protest against the stallion owner I was seeking a signature from. Once the "threat" was issued...a signature was forthcoming, and I didn't have to do anyhting else after that.

What IS it with stallion owners who don't return calls or email and flat ignore a request for a signature for a long-since-paid-for breeding?
What are some options that can be persued by this foal owner?

Is this an "ethics committee issue"? What would the proper channel be to get started on obtaining the signature? To my way of thinking...if this signature is not obtained and the foal owner loses his application fee and has to start all over again... can the stallion owner be forced to pay for the trouble and expense they caused? Will it have to be a civil action that will get it done?

Please advise! Thanks...

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[lisa l aka marci]

To add onto that - why, if a breeder certificate is on file with the PFHA - why does the foal owner need to submit ANOTHER form? I got BB's registration back saying I needed the stallion owner's signature....now I need to send the paperwork to Sandy....I think.....

Gotta go look at the papers again and get it done asap for me!

[Terry Wallace]

The breeder certificate is NOT on file at the PFHA in this case....it needs a signature...all registration applications must have signatures.


Yes..of course he could go to court...it will mean just that much more money out of pocket to the foal owner...CAUSED by the stallion owner.
Taking it to court could take a year...making it just that much more expensive to register the horse for the foal owner.

Is there no recourse for mare owners seeking signatures OTHER than civil court? Does the PFHA have no authority at all in these matters?

It seems to me that the stallion owner must be held responsible to carry out the breeding contract, which states a breeder certificate will be issued.
Can the PFHA issue "punishment" in the form of a suspension or fine for stallion owners ignoring the requests of mare owners for breeder certificates? Would this be considered holding the welfare of the breed "paramount"... in that a horse cannot be registered because the stallion owner will not issue the certificate?

[ErinC]

wow, to think it would even have to come to something like that!
I feel bad for her, she must be going out of her mind.
And now it makes me see why there are some Unregestered horses out there.
bummer :-?

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[Carol Nelson]

Hmmm...very strange...why not a breeder's report on file? Sounds to me like this particular breeder is just raking in the bucks without keeping up their obligations! Or.....maybe there is some question as to who the sire is???? I just don't understand not fulfilling the terms of the rules of the Asssociation...they're really pretty simple, actually.
Sure too bad to have to take it to court for something so easy to rectify. :-?

Seems to me there should be some type of "punishment" for such breeders...say suspension...until all obligations are fulfilled.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[LynnG]

Produce the signed breeder's contract.

Produce the canceled payment checks for the stud fees.

Produce any canceled checks for ai, vet and board fees paid to stallion owner.

In today's breeding world there are contracts signed by both parties. There are paper trails of payment received. Are you sure there isn't monies still owed the stallion owner by the mare owner?

Find out from PFHA if the mare has been listed on the stallion report for the given year. If a repeat breeding from a prior year, find out if listed on that stallion report. Remember some stallions have agents who do the signing, but the agent's signature needs to be on file as per able to sign for the real owner. Find out who the real owner is and if an agent was involved.

Send a copy of the signed breeding contract, copies of all payments and canceled checks via certified letter to the stallion owner and agent, and PFHA registrar.

[Terry Wallace]

why didn't the owner of the mare get all papers with the required signatures at the time of breeding

Because the semen comes on the airplane Felix.... and goes to the vet office here... The stallion owner sent nothing in the way of paperwork.

There is no money "owed" to the stallion owner. The mare was bred here, in Colorado.

PS..this just happened last year to another friend of mine who bred to a "high profile" horse through the PFHA stallion auction... and no money was owned in that scenario either.In both cases...it is the stallion owner not responding to phone calls, messages and emails...

There MUST be something a mare owner can do (???) what IS it?
What can the mare owner do to "light a fire" under the stallion owner to get the signature?

Should he have an attorney write a letter? What can the PFHA do to help this situation for the mare owner PFHA member?

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[LynnG]

Terry, re-read the advice I gave. What does the breeding contract say? who has right to sign the ceritficate? registered with PFHA stallion agent? ....and don't tell me there isn't one. Produce the copy of the check and paperwork to the breeding purchased thru the SSA.

and why hasn't this been done by contacting the stallion owner/agent with a certified letter with return receipt. send a breeder's certificate with the areas marked where the signature is required.

If the mare owner has found out all the info stated above, and there are no holes... in the info or paperwork.......... send the certified letter with the breeders certificate to be signed (with supporting documentation) and a stamped return letter.

[Terry Wallace]

That has been done Lynn... (certified letter w/receipt).

Now what? I mean...now what short of a civil suit....?

Yes..of course there is a contract. Yes, I'm aware an agent can sign if that agent is on file at PFHA ... I had gone through this myself a few years back... but didn't have to go "this far"...

The PFHA told my friend that they "could not help him" get a signature..and that is what does not sound correct to me... why can they not help him? What is the recourse?

To recap:
No money is owed.
The owner will not respond.
The stallion breeding report IS filed...
The signature for the breeder certificate on the reg application is NEEDED....

What is the next step? A flight to Florida to the very door of the owner? bring a couple of thugs to strong-arm the stud owner into signing? AND WHY oh why should there be any trouble at all over this?
Very frustrating for the foal owner...

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[Cindy]

Felix, she's not bashing Florida. It just so happens that the stallion owner lives in Florida. If the stallion owner lived in Quebec, she would have said Quebec.

I am not sure what the PFHA is supposed to do here. If you did not have a signature on a car that you had just purchased would you go to the DMV and tell them that they need to obtain the signature for you?

[Terry Wallace]

Oh boy...here we go again. I am NOT "bashing Florida"..

Felix could you please stop instigating trouble?
WHAT is it with you?


Do you understand the horse owner LIVES in Florida? It could as easily been anywhere else....

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[Terry Wallace]

No Cindy... I would go to the car dealer!

the DMV has no authority to get a signature for a car.

However... if a stallion owner will not sign a breeder certificate for a breeding long since paid for....would the PFHA have NO authority to demand the signature be released for the mare owner? Would the PFHA just regard that as the decision of the breeder to in effect rip off the mare owner on a registration? Would the PFHA back the stallion owner ofr the mare owner? BOTH are PFHA members....

Just what good is the PFHA if they cannot help out in this manner?
I would think there would be some kind of fine for not following through on your business (breeding) contract... and thereby not putting the good of the breed "first" so to speak...???

[LynnG]

I encountered similar with my mare not being listed on a stallion report on a rebreed LFG. I did what I outlined above ...sent copies of everything ...including contracts, correspondance and canceled checks to recorded stallion owner at time of breeding. Stallion breeding "agent" had been unreponsive and was the one who didn't list my mare though she took the shipping semen fee. Sent all with a certified letter with receipt to stallion owner and PFHA. And I even paid PFHA for an addition to the stallion report to have my mare added. I just needed the signature on the breeders (registration) paper. Not only did I get it, but I also got an extra from the errant "agent". And in between the stallion had been sold, so the previous stallion owner didn't have anything to do but sign and return back in the envelope I provided.

It worked. PFHA has always been very helpful in providing info about breeding records sumitted: whether a mare is listed on a stallion report, recorded agent, whether a current member, etc?

[Terry Wallace]

Thanks for all the positive ideas and feedback... now that I am getting involved with this dilema, I do appreciate any help. I will be working on this... must get all documents.... :D

I know if it were my foal...I'd be "fit to be tied" over something like this!

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

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[PasoVicki]

Terry,

If I were your friend, I would send a registered letter to PFHA reminding them of their own rulebook.

Appropriate subsections:

1. Stallion Breeding Report on Record. A
Stallion Breeding Report for each registered Paso Fino
stallion that is the reported sire of the applicant horse
must be on record with the Association for the year in which
the applicant horse was conceived and all applicable
Stallion Breeding Report fees must be paid; The fee will be
based on the current membership status of the recorded
owner(s) of the stallion at the time of the breeding;



4. The stallion owner may be charged for any
reasonable costs and expenses that the Association incurs in
investigating the accuracy of the Stallion Breeding Report
and may also be subject to other penalties or disciplinary
action.



C. Falsifying Records; Failure to Report.
Falsifying transported semen records and failing to report a
breeding by use of transported semen are considered as
violations of the rules of the Association, and any person
found to be guilty of such violations shall be subject to
disciplinary action and penalties as provided in these
rules.


XV. Record Keeping Responsibilities
Any person subject to these rules may be required to
supply such information and documents as the Association may
determine to be necessary with respect to the registration
of horses or the transfer of ownership of Certificates of
127
Registration. Complete and accurate records of breeding,
including hand breeding, artificial insemination and pasture
breeding, embryo transfer, foaling and ownership must be
kept in permanent form by owner of a horse, and these
records must be available at all reasonable times for
inspection by representatives of the Association. If the
Association determines that no systematic and satisfactory
plan for keeping records is in use, or if no records are
made available upon request, the Association, after
requesting compliance in a written notice mailed to the
person, may refuse to issue a Certificate of Registration or
to transfer a Certificate of Registration from such owner
until the records are made available. If the owner fails to
demonstrate that they have complied with the Association
request, the Association may proceed against the owner as
provided in these rules.




Strictly in my own opinion, the PFHA rules not only allow, but require, that the PFHA become involved in a registration dispute, and the stallion owner can be sanctioned by the PFHA for failing to provide the documentation necessary to resolve the dispute.

Again, my next action would be to send a registered letter to PFHA, quoting the above, and requesting sanctions against the stallion owner for failing to keep and provide the breeding records required by PFHA. I'd copy the letter to the stallion owner, too.

[Terry Wallace]

Thanks Vicky... I can never download the rulebook at the PFHA site... I just get a red X there when I try to...

[PasoVicki]

Terry,
I sent you an email. (I hope you still have the yahoo email address.) I copied the entire chapter of the PFHA rulebook on registrations for you -- I think you'll find it helpful, because PFHA can and should help resolve this kind of problem.

[Abejita]

well it looks like all those rules were followed from what Terry says..no where is it saying they have to sign the breeder's certificate..all those rules are about record keeping on the stallion owner's end..signing a breeder's certificate is not mentioned..Terry said the stallion report was filed correct? .PFHA cannot issue a registration on the basis that the mare was bred( stallion report) Being listed on the stallion report doesnt mean jack..just that they admit the mare was bred..no one knows if all monies are paid( I know in this case you said they are Terry..) .
My contract used to say we would sign the certificate when all monies were paid in full .
The rule book DOES however say Chapter 8,sect 2D

the assoc does not mediate disputes or settle controversies of any nature that may exist or arise between Assoc members or others:however the Assoc many REFUSE to perform any registry transaction of which they Assoc has actual knowledge of any dispute or controversy by way of having been provided legal documentation supporting the controversyby or between various parties and affecting the horses involved

sect F says "....Primary responsibility for obtaining and submitting any paperwork required to complete a business transaction w/the registry rests with the owner of the horse.Where additional info from prior owners is necessary..current owner is responsible for all contact and correspondence w/ those prior owners

From my quick glance throught the registration section of my rule book ( from Sept 2006) ..it says nothing about a stallion owner having to sign...RULE CHANGE!!!!2 yrs to work one up..

[Sharon B]

I was told not to long ago that they did not even look at signatures. I guess sometimes they do. I know when you do the registration online, PFHA will send the stallions owners a piece of paper to sign. So maybe your friend should file online.
Sharon

[PattiB]

If the registration was sent to PFHA without the signature they would send a letter to both parties stating that a signature was required. The Stallion Owner could sign that letter and send it to PFHA or the foal owner could send a copy to the stallion owner.
I have hand carried a letter to the stallion owner/agent to get signatures before. It's hard to ignore you when your face to face. I have also gone down to the deadline wire waiting on a signature, some stallion owners are just not organized.

[echo]

I'm with Patti B... it's hard to turn down a request for a signature if someone is standing in front of you. Is this person likely to be at Nationals? If you know someone who knows this person, ask them to take a Registration Application to them and get it signed for you. The registration department can "marry-up" the signed registration application with the one you've already sent in.
You also could ask Mary Rizo-Patron, who is now doing the Breeder's Sweepstakes (I believe?) to get the signature for you.

[Terry Wallace]

PROBLEM SOLVED!! Thanks everybody..... signature is secured... :D

[Rusel]

STRANGE that the ethics committee has no power to do anything..!! What's their roll if they cannot be of use to the paso owner.

WHAT COMMITTEE responds to filed complaints..????

Seems some of the other breeds stop these type of problems in their tracks by charging a complaint fee for processing a complaint and then stopping all transactions on both parties until the dispute is resolved. They get resolved usuallly pretty quick so business as usual can go on. PS I also believe that the complaint fee ends up being paid by the at fault party.

IN REALITY..... all the PFHA ethics committe would have to do is send a letter to the individual who is listed in the complaint and indicate that a complaint had been filed. Send a copy of the complaint and ask the individual to reply to the originator of complaint. Once the individual knows the PFHA has been notified they usually compy with their responsibilities. Forwarding a complaint does not make PFHA liable.

Known fact: Such a simple letter would have saved the PFHA attorney fees more than once.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I am very glad to hear that thanks to the full Cooperation from our association the PFHA and its members this case is NOW CLOSED !!!!

I am glad we have such GREAT ASSOCIATION!!!!!!

Saludos!!!!!

[Terry Wallace]

Rusel...I have asked that question a time or two myself.


I hope the "new changes" coming are GOOD ones.... lots of areas sure could use an update and a revamp into the year 2007....

STRANGE that the ethics committee has no power to do anything..!! What's their roll if they cannot be of use to the paso owner.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Rusel...I have asked that question a time or two myself.


I hope the "new changes" coming are GOOD ones.... lots of areas sure could use an update and a revamp into the year 2007....

STRANGE that the ethics committee has no power to do anything..!! What's their roll if they cannot be of use to the paso owner.



VIVA PFHA!!!!!!!!