Trocha

[Finogirl]

Can someone please explain to me what a Trocha gait looks like and why it's so different to the Paso Fino and also why some people do not like it?

Thank you. :smile:

[Pasogirlz]

Check the Trocha forum, I believe there are some really good videos posted in there, and maybe some of the info you have been looking for as well.

[Terry Wallace]

Nope...no we can not explain! (just kidding)

It opens a huge can of worms... I think it is already explained in a different forum...somebody PLEASE find it for her!

There is also disagreement on what "trocha" is... trocha by ATTA definition...or Trocha as how it is applied to a Paso Fino..?

Trocha as defined in the film "What is My Gait" is not the same as defined by ATTA....

[Cindy]

Trocha is not that terribly mysterious. Basically it is a four beat gait with the same footfall as the Paso gait but closer to the diagonal. Almost a trot but not quite. As far as why some people don't like it, you would have to ask the some people. But I think the perception that "people don't like it" may be a little misleading. I think in most cases it is not that people dislike it it is more that it is a gait that is not appropriate for a Paso Fino to be exhibiting in the show ring. That does not mean that a horse cannot exhibit this gait outside the show ring. But when the horse is asked to gait in the show ring, it should be gaiting, not in trocha. But I guess there are some that will say that if a Paso Fino is in trocha outside the show ring it is somehow bad and that Paso Finos should only gait all the time. But then again, some people live in lala land as well.

[Terry Wallace]

Cindy describes it exactly as the film does..... this is the trocha or "pasitrocha" that I was taught about. The gait which is very close to Paso Fino... but just "out of timing" for footfall....and leaning toward the diagonal.

I have a Paso Fino who performs the trocha/pasitrocha perfectly and prefers to trocha over gait.... it is every bit as smooth as gait....

It has been my expereince that when training Paso Finos, many will trocha when first being ridden and "finding their balance". Also, some Paso Finos tend to fall to trocha when they are tired....

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

DELETED

[Terry Wallace]

Nobody said "TROCHA IS NOT A GAIT" Felix.... on the contrary..it IS a gait...a gait most don't want!!

See what I mean finogirl?

can o' worms ....

I would like to play the trocha segment of the film "Whats My Gait" here on the BB...can anyone advise me HOW I can do that? I have it on DVD...I can play it in my DVD player...how can I get it on the BB?

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Deleted

[Cindy]

Relax, you are both correct. Terry, trocha and pasitrocha are different. Pasitrocha is what you are describing by a Paso Fino that is not quite in perfect gait. Trocha is more to the diagonal and only resembles Paso Fino gait in movement. There is a distinct difference. Now ya'll be careful or we will have to go in time out. :lol:

[Terry Wallace]

That further ads to the confusion... trocha and pasitrocha have been defined to me as the same thing...so please explain the distinct difference... and remember...do not use the word "timing"!!! :D

What is "not quite" in perfect gait? I rarely see a Paso Fino in "perfect" gait... what is the imperfection of pasitrocha as opposed to trocha in the Paso Fino?

If it is not timing...what IS it? The trocha our gelding performs is taca-taca (space) taca-taca. This very slight "misfire" is like an engine not running smoothly, but has a bit of stutter.....

Candice...are you here? Was it not you who said Trocha & pasitrocha are the same? That "Pasitrocha" was a more "correct" term for a horse who is not a bonafide trochador?

I'd LIKE TO SEE....video of trocha Cindy describes..vs. video of a true trochador horse from the ATTA for comparison...how can we accomplish this task?

[Cindy]

You have pretty much answered your own question, Terry. taca----taca is NOT trocha. It is out of gait. Trocha is tras tras. Even, rythmic and quick. And it is not, as you described previously, just out of Paso Fino gait. It is more like just out of trote. Don't know what else to say.

[Abejita]

if your dvd player is on your computer you should be able to save it as a video file and upload to onetruemedia or the like..if your dvd player ISNT on your comp..someone with more knowledge than me will have to help ..

[Terry Wallace]

Out of Paso gait...out of trote... both are a timing issue no?
Out of paso gait toward the diagonal....same thing.

Is it any wonder there is confusion....?

Abejita... I will try that soon as I hear from Mel....that it is O.K. to do...

I wopuld really like to get that video clip on the BB for people to see and question. likewise a clip of a bonafide trochador would be good too...anybody got one? Is there one on this BB?

[Cindy]

Everything is a timing issue. I don't get your point.

[Finogirl]

Oh Dear, was not trying to open a can of worms, it's just my friend is looking to buy a previous European Trocha Champion and I just wanted to know more. Thanks for your help.

[Terry Wallace]

Sure you do,...that it is out of time....its all in the TIME..... timing refines, defines and captures all gaits...

ergo... when its out of time its not correct gait. When it is in perfect time...each foot placed & picked up independently in perfect sequence = defines "good" gait.

Balance... form to function, taca, taca, taca, taca

tras, tras, tras, to me defines a two beat gait...diagonal gait, two legs hitting perceptively equally....as the human eye can descern, without the benefit of slo-mo film speed.

[pnalley]

Is trocha and pasitrocha smooth like the Paso gait?

I would like to see it too. But when I look at the videos they are not clear enough for me to make the distinction

[Terry Wallace]

Is trocha and pasitrocha smooth like the Paso gait?

Yes.... well at least it is on our gelding....

[CarolU]

Finogirl....something you should know, that Cindy was trying to allude to, is that most Paso Finos will trocha sometimes. Other Paso Finos go pacey - towards lateral movement. And to most riders it is just fine, and indeed most don't even know the horse is not 'isochronal.' Isochronal is a perfectly even gait. The ideal Paso Fino gait is isochronal.

Trocha is a gait, just not a show gait for the Paso Fino. And that is the 'crux' of the problem. Trocha can be a very VERY fast gait and was bred into the Paso Finos to increase speed of footfall (or so I've been TOLD). Some horses can only do trocha and can't be brought to isochronal. Others can with training.

I would question where you draw the line for "natural" isochronal gait? And if you're breeding for natural Paso Fino gait, how do you know when a horse is more diagonal or more isochronal naturally, when so much training is what you see in the show ring?

[Cindy]

ergo... when its out of time its not correct gait. When it is in perfect time...each foot placed & picked up independently in perfect sequence = defines "good" gait.


Terry, it depends on which gait you are refering to. Trocha is not out of time for trocha. You are trying to make this something that it isn't.

And, yes, trocha is very smooth and like fino the smoothness varies from horse to horse.

Finogirl, don't worry about it. There is always a can of worms somewhere. Discussing is how we all learn. And I think it is great that your friend is buying a trocha champion. They are very cool horses.

[Finogirl]

Ok, I think I'm kinda getting it now.

The mare I am hopefully getting (there are still some questions over Reg papers at the mo) does pace when I am trying to get her to canter, she Cortos then goes into pace rather than canter - it feels quite weird and rocky but is not a problem, I just have to get her back into gait then ask again and hey presto. My trouble is as I've said before on my other post is that because she was a western trained then classically trained horse she does tend to trot when she can and It's hard for her to remember that actually I'd prefer Corto, obviously gaiting was not allowed in classical dressage !!!! - I do wonder why somone would do that to a Paso but hey who knows - poor confused baby, she'll get there in the end.

[CarolU]

Pacey is kind of the opposite problem of trocha. I think with time and consistency you can get her to go from corto to canter without the pace. I'm assuming you have no largo, since you didn't mention it. I have a PR mare here who is the same way, no largo, but a killer pace if you push her.

As for the trotting, a lot of Pasos will trot on a loose rein and gait only with collection. If you check into gait and release, then check again when she trots, she'll eventually get the idea you'll stay out of her face if she stays in gait. You'll get there!

[Finogirl]

Thanks Carol that's the kind of advice I was hoping for on this Forum. :smile: .................and I still can't believe how nice all of you people are !!! :D

Edited to ad -

What I did find utterly amazing the other day was the stunning Piaffe she executed on a trailride when I was holding her back and she wanted to go, she has a lot of Brio when out in company and is very quiet on her own, which suits me just fine.....I also wanted to add that having not done dressage to anything like that sort of level, I have absolutely no idea how I got her to do it and which buttons I managed to push !!! LOL !!! :lol:

[Terry Wallace]

Trocha is not out of time for trocha.

Yes, as a gait in itself that is true...as in a trochador..performing the trocha.

But..we aren't talking about trochador horses... well, at least I am trying to equate it to a Paso Fino that can trocha...or is it pasitrocha...

That gait performed by a tired Paso that is no longer isochronal in nature, but has gone toward the diagonal, but is not diagonal.

Is it more correct to say that horse is just "out of gait" or has it moved to being "in trocha" by being more diagonal than lateral?

I ask because I have seen and heard PFHA judges that have said that a Paso Fino in the ring was excused for being in trocha and not correct Paso Fino gait. I heard Rick Meyer also speaking of how the horse was "falling to the diagonal" and would be penalized for doing so, just as the horse who was "going to the lateral" would also be penalized (during a nationals segment on RFD TV) I do not recall if Rick said the word "trocha"...but the first judge sure did.

So what is it? is it pasitrocha, trocha or "out of gait".... I think this is very confusing for many people to grasp.... One judge says one thing, another says something different, I'd like a clear definition... I always thought the Whats My Gait film was accurate... perhaps it is not. Have you seen it? if so... what is the gait they show as trocha?

[ErinC]

finogirl,
this is a hard topic for us old timers not to bicker about.
I am proud of everyone for staying on topic, and helping you understand the bigger picture.

my 3 yr old gaits, trots. trochas and canters , I just try to encourage the gait when I feel it, and work on the frame that helps that gait when I feel him do it.
you see he is still learning balance, building muscle, and learning to flex.
all the stuff that keeps the horse in a nice frame with nice collection & balance, helps him gait better.

[Kerry W]

Speaking of Rick Meyer...I saw a segment on the PFHA show on RFD-TV this past week that described it quite well (or at least I felt it did)...he used an arc to describe it. I'm going to use a protractor, because it has numbers on it.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/92946protractor.jpg

Paso Fino is at 90, Trot is 0 (to the left), and Pace is at 180 (to the right).

As you go toward Trocha (we'll say this is 45), away from Paso Fino (90), toward 60 (outside numbers)...is pasitrocha (is the correct word pasitrochado?). 0 being Trocha Pura.

Toward 180 to the right, to say 120 (outside numbers) would be andadura. 180 to the right, would be a Pace.

The numbers I used are just an example (NOT INTENDED TO BE TAKEN AS LITERAL GOSPEL)...and I don't know if it is necessarily the correct example to give...but it was a light bulb moment for me personally. jejejeje I thought Rick explained it quite well....he used his arms though...and I can't do that here. :lol:

[Cindy]

If trocha pura is at zero, where is trot?

[CarolU]

Edited to ad -

What I did find utterly amazing the other day was the stunning Piaffe she executed on a trailride when I was holding her back and she wanted to go, she has a lot of Brio when out in company and is very quiet on her own, which suits me just fine.....I also wanted to add that having not done dressage to anything like that sort of level, I have absolutely no idea how I got her to do it and which buttons I managed to push !!! LOL !!! :lol:

Oh...that's funny. I say ALL my Paso Finos will "Fino"...any time they want to go somewhere I don't! ROFL I see yours does too!

I had a beautiful "Fino Piaffe" last week when Rosie saw her first cows! It was SOOOOO funny (and beautiful I might add!!). I wish I had a video of it, it was awesome (and NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, she did NOT run like a Thoroughbred, but Fino'd, just like she was bred to do! LOL)

When you figure out how to do that on cue, you'll have something I WANT TO SEE!!!!!

Great story.

[Cindy]

Yes, as a gait in itself that is true...as in a trochador..performing the trocha.

But..we aren't talking about trochador horses... well, at least I am trying to equate it to a Paso Fino that can trocha...or is it pasitrocha...

That gait performed by a tired Paso that is no longer isochronal in nature, but has gone toward the diagonal, but is not diagonal.

Is it more correct to say that horse is just "out of gait" or has it moved to being "in trocha" by being more diagonal than lateral?

I ask because I have seen and heard PFHA judges that have said that a Paso Fino in the ring was excused for being in trocha and not correct Paso Fino gait. I heard Rick Meyer also speaking of how the horse was "falling to the diagonal" and would be penalized for doing so, just as the horse who was "going to the lateral" would also be penalized (during a nationals segment on RFD TV) I do not recall if Rick said the word "trocha"...but the first judge sure did.

So what is it? is it pasitrocha, trocha or "out of gait".... I think this is very confusing for many people to grasp.... One judge says one thing, another says something different, I'd like a clear definition... I always thought the Whats My Gait film was accurate... perhaps it is not. Have you seen it? if so... what is the gait they show as trocha?

First of all, no, I have not seen the "What's my gait " video. But I will say that when it came out there were many people who did not think it to be accurate. I personally have no idea if it is or not as, as I said, I have not seen it.

In reference to the rest. As far as the Paso Fino show ring is concerned, it really does not matter what you want to call an out of gait horse. The fact is that it is not performing the Paso Fino gait. What it is performing, when judging a Paso Fino horse, is irrelevent so it does not matter what the judge calls it, only that he calls it. :D

As to the question of is it trocha or pasitrocha or simply out of gait. First of all, out of gait is out of gait so if the horse is not performing the required Paso Fino gait, regardless of what it is performing, calling it out of gait would be accurate in any case. Is it trocha or pasitrocha? Depends on the horse and what it is doing. It may be out of gait and cantering. Out of gait does not necessarilly have ANYTHING to do with trocha. As for the horses who ARE out of gait in some kind of diagonal movement, some of them will be in pasitrocha and some of them will be in trocha. Now, I have heard some of those diehards who say that if a Paso Fino is out of gait it is pasitrocha as only trocha horses trocha. But I gotta tell ya, that does not make much sense when the same horse that I have judged as "out of gait" in a PFHA show is now being exhibited and shown in trocha. And is very good at it I might add. I could name a couple of Paso Finos who do a tremendous trocha and would be kings in the sport of trocha were they to be shown in it as they are tremendous animals of superior quality. But I won't. And then there is always the Don Danilo thing you can throw at them. If he could do all gaits, so can anyone else. :D

[CarolU]

And then there is always the Don Danilo thing you can throw at them. If he could do all gaits, so can anyone else.

You know it's funny, but I watched Jon Hyatt take several horses, from trot to torcha to gait to andadura to pace, JUST by how he was riding them. He didn't do this with just one horse.

I guess that goes back to the question about natural vs. training. If Jon can do this, I imagine others can.

[Brigitte]

Trocha is a four beat diagonal gait. But the two feet hit at almost the same time making it SOUND like a two beat gait.Trochadores, are not Paso Finos out of gait. They are just Trocha horses. Horses with Trocha parents, who Trocha because it is their gait.

Now there are Paso Finos who trocha, but that is a whole other thing because some people don't like to say that a Paso Fino trochas, while some say they are doing the trocha, but they are paso fino gaited horses

[Cindy]

If the horse can perform all those gaits then all those gaits are natural to the horse. Unless the horse has been manipulated with artificial devices to attain said gaits. I can tell you right now that I can make ANY Paso Fino trot. I could probably make any of them pace as well but would have no desire to. You seem to be very hung up on this "natural" thing of late. Do you consider Rosie to be "naturally" gaited?

[Cindy]

Trocha is a four beat diagonal gait. But the two feet hit at almost the same time making it SOUND like a two beat gait.Trochadores, are not Paso Finos out of gait. They are just Trocha horses. Horses with Trocha parents, who Trocha because it is their gait.

Now there are Paso Finos who trocha, but that is a whole other thing because some people don't like to say that a Paso Fino trochas, while some say they are doing the trocha, but they are paso fino gaited horses


:smilieparty And it's just that simple. Now, should we get into the trocha horses who pasitrocha or fino? :lmao

[stella]

I guess I'll have to figure out how to get my old article scanned and put on the web...
Anyway, gaited horses are "ambidextrous"-that is, unlike trotting and pacing horses,who only can use ONE support system -either diagonal, or lateral.....exclusively, using a moment called suspension when all 4 feet are off the ground, to switch from one pair of legs to another..

Gaited horses use both support systems, and thereby either partly or completely eliminate suspension. They alternate from the lateral to the diagonal, back to lateral and then again diagonal, systems....there are either 2 or 3 feet on the ground, and in some other breeds' gaits, 2 or 1 foot -but ALWAYS a foot, on the ground......

Kerry's protractor visual is good-or, it can be straight line, with perfectly EVEN gait in the middle, trot at one end, pace at the other, because actually, the trot and the pace ARE mirror opposites of each other- if you used just silhouettes, you couldnt tell a pacing horse from a trotting one in stop-action frames!
So, the same horse can become trotty or pacey, to various degrees....the ability is inherent......and yes, you can have a trotty gait and a gaity trot(and lateral versions)depending whether the timing allows for a even a fraction of suspension.......

So yes, no horse is a machine, it depends, and tiredness can make a horse get "sloppy"if out of condition, BUT given a horse isnt being inhibited by rider, tack, farrier, etc. a well-gaited PF horse's natural tendency will be to prefer to maintain its balance in an even 4 beat gait, as opposed to regularly wanting to do something else, even if its fairly close! The good ones may take an "off" step, and then usually "self-correct!" So you barely notice.... (does this explanation help? :smile: )

[Cindy]

So yes, no horse is a machine, it depends, and tiredness can make a horse get "sloppy"if out of condition, BUT given a horse isnt being inhibited by rider, tack, farrier, etc. a well-gaited PF horse's natural tendency will be to prefer to maintain its balance in an even 4 beat gait, as opposed to regularly wanting to do something else, even if its fairly close! The good ones may take an "off" step, and then usually "self-correct!" So you barely notice.... (does this explanation help? )


It's not that simple. It's not that simple BECAUSE when being ridden, horses are ALWAYS affected one way or another by all of those things that you mention. So then we must go to the horse at liberty at which time the only thing that can affect it is farrier. Well, you know as well as I do that many of the best gaited horses under saddle prefer to trot in the pasture. Most of mine either walk or canter/run most of the time when they are turned out. Does that mean that canter is their most "natural" gait? A horse that CAN gait consistantly and without artificial means to make it gait is a horse that is naturally gaited. Period. That is the only logical way to define a "naturally" gaited horse. Let's go back to Don Danilo, was HE naturally gaited? I don't know what gait he "prefered" to do under saddle. But I know that his gait was natural. And how many of those "good ones" that you mentioned started out in the diagonal? Does that mean that they were not the "good ones" then but they are now?

[Kerry W]

If trocha pura is at zero, where is trot?

Ask Rick...it was his example....he didn't elaborate further. It was just something that I thought might be helpful. :roll:

[CarolU]

So where do you draw the line Cindy?

There has to be a line somewhere, or they'd all be Paso Finos.

[Cindy]

All Paso Finos ARE Paso Finos.

[CarolU]

Even if they only every always trot? Or pace?

[CarolU]

I guess I should ask now, would you STILL breed to them?

[Cindy]

Even if they only every always trot? Or pace?


Yes. It is a breed.



I guess I should ask now, would you STILL breed to them?


That depends on a lot of different factors. Have I ever bred a stallion or mare that did not gait? NO. To say that I never would is pure speculation as I cannot predict the future nor can I predict if there would ever come the time when such a horse would be presented to me that would have a problem with gait that was not genetic and if that horse did come to me would I breed to it. It's an inane question. One that if answered in the negative could prove to be a lie in the future. Therefore I can only answer as to what I have done in the past.

[CarolU]

You must have been a lawyer in a previous life. :-? ;-)

My 'Door Prize" Paso, Trooper is a trotter. I understand that is all his dam every produced, yet, she was bred again and again, year after year. Part of why Pasos have a 'bad' name in our area, many do NOT gait "naturally." I'm sure someone could put some nasty torture device on his head and force him to gait, but is that natural?

So, where do 'we' draw the line?

[Cindy]

I can't help it if you have a horse that was bred by someone who bred bad horses. Where do I draw WHAT line?

[Mellifluous]

Getting back on topic, didn't finogirl mention that her friend was looking into buying a trocha champion.

Maybe we should be talking about the competitive trocha horses and not muddying the waters with our very dear to our heart opinions about paso gait? :roll: ;-)

[Pasogirlz]

Pie anyone?
Where is Candice?

Shall we confuse things further and discuss the four Colombian Paso horses and all the modalities they execute, and how they are judged in Colombia? :twisted:

Sorry Mel. :lol:

[Cindy]

Good idea. :bolts

[Cindy]

That was to Mel. But I'm game for Lori's suggestion as well. I'm ging to sleep soon anyway. :rofl

[CarolU]

Isn't there another forum for "competitive trocha" horses?

Most of us don't know anything about these horses, their competitions, or what wins. It's nice to learn and see, but we can't really discuss it.

I thought she asked about trocha as it relates to Paso Finos. My bad.

[Mellifluous]

Pie anyone?
Where is Candice?

Shall we confuse things further and discuss the four Colombian Paso horses and all the modalities they execute, and how they are judged in Colombia? :twisted:

Sorry Mel. :lol:

Uh huh - Trouble Maker! :razz:

At least Finogirl can see that we are a passionate bunch about our horses! ;-)

[Mellifluous]

Isn't there another forum for "competitive trocha" horses?

Most of us don't know anything about these horses, their competitions, or what wins. It's nice to learn and see, but we can't really discuss it.

I thought she asked about trocha as it relates to Paso Finos. My bad.

I do believe the question evolved as she gathered more information. I think she probably gets the point about why some people do not like trocha.

[Pasogirlz]

I think it's important to understand both aspects. Otherwise I wouldn't stir Mel's crock pot. ;-)

[motorgypsy]

We live in Colombia, have Colombian friends and discussed gait with a couple of renown Colombian breeders. Most of this has already been said but here is a brief (I hope) summary

Trocha is the name of the gait performed by trochador horses. It is very smooth, diagonal, slightly 4 beat and executed with very rapid footfall. The registry of the trochador is not closed to paso finos but people who want a trochador will breed to other trochadors rather than a "misguided" paso fino.

The paso fino does an even (isochronal) gait in the show ring according to PFHA rules or it gets excused. But when it is on the trail it will sometimes do what our Colombian friends call a "resting gait" which is frequently a bit diagonal - an uneven four beat, but can also be a bit lateral.

To use the word trocha to describe this resting gait is like saying all cars are Fords (no insult intended Lori). The resting gait of a trail or unbalanced or unfit paso fino may be diagonal - may be really diagonal, but it really isn't "trocha" Trocha is diagonal but all diagonals are not trocha.

[stratton]

I have always had a problem with the wording in the PFHA rulebook. This is not exact but it something to the effect of: An evenly timed 4beat lateral gait How can it be evenly timed and lateral also. Are they referrring to the pick up of the feet,which makes no sense to me as all gait is distinguished by Footfall

Stratton

[ErinC]

:shock: you are so right..... sorry!

thought she asked about trocha as it relates to Paso Finos. My bad.


me too. sorry!

And this is the last time she posted back on page 2

that's the kind of advice I was hoping for on this Forum. .................and I still can't believe how nice all of you people are!!!


I think we scared her away!

[Pasogirlz]

Oh Dear, was not trying to open a can of worms, it's just my friend is looking to buy a previous European Trocha Champion and I just wanted to know more. Thanks for your help.

How about we ask the obvious here....
Europe has classes for Trocha at their Paso Fino shows?
How is trocha reguarded in Europe? Are they showing true trochadors or Paso Finos who are executing the incorrect modality? :idea:

[Finogirl]

No Guys you didn't scare me off takes a lot more than a difference of opinion to do that !!!.......I had to go to bed.........it was past midnight in little old England !!! :lol:

I see you have been discussing things further which is good, I would love for someone to post a picture of the 4 hooves and which one goes first, second third ect in Trocha....you must have seen a picture like that somewhere ???

Anyone ? :D

[Andres V]

Why is trocha not describe by this associasion (PFHA)? Is Europe not part of this associasion and if is why are they different rule? Maybe it is differant assoc so they will learn from mistake here and include it or is it Paso Colombiano there?

If is OK to say here that trocha is a gait of Paso Fino why is not OK for associasion to say it in rules?

Is a problem that associasion create a long time before by described the gait like machine, no individual, no average, no best, just all perform like robot only

I dont see people who are all same, why for Gods sake is expected that all horse be exact like words written :roll: I think there is no horse with perfect time perfect place of foot 100 percent of time. Is best horse on best day is as good as it is.

[ErinC]

Andres,
her friend is looking at a
European Trocha Champion and I just wanted to know more.



I know when I went to a clinic once, it was realy cool , they had a
paso doing the paso gait,
a trochador doing its thing,
and a paso in the ring doing- trocha

there is a differance.[/quote]

[Fuego]

Kerry, I saw the show with Rick also and thought he did an outstanding job explaining the gaits. However, I recall him saying trot was at 0, pf was at 90( right in the middle) and pace was at 180. ( trot and pace at opposite ends) and trocha was in between trot and pf. I think have it recorded on Tivo. I will check.

[CarolU]

Finogirl, the footfall is the same as the walk, LR, LF, RR, RF. The difference between Paso gait (even) and trocha is that the diagonals hit very soon after each other. So it sounds like LR....LF,RR....RF,LR.... does that help? It also LOOKS a lit like the horse is trotting.

Brigette had posted some really good videos that had slow motion of the trocha horses. I wonder if we can sweet talk her into doing it again.

[Kerry W]

Kerry, I saw the show with Rick also and thought he did an outstanding job explaining the gaits. However, I recall him saying trot was at 0, pf was at 90( right in the middle) and pace was at 180. ( trot and pace at opposite ends) and trocha was in between trot and pf. I think have it recorded on Tivo. I will check.

Thanks Mitch...you are correct. I checked the recording, and changed my original post. Ain't it amamzing how far a little tact and diplomacy can go?! ;-)

[Fuego]

Tact and diplomacy?? If you are speaking to me, I apologize. It wasn't intentional ....... :lol: :lol:

[Kerry W]

Tact and diplomacy?? If you are speaking to me, I apologize. It wasn't intentional ....... :lol: :lol:

Yes, I was...sorry! :twisted:

[Candice Burger]

Ah, did someone say pie??? This is long and a commentary of my thoughts only to be corrected by those who so choose to.

For Finogirl, the trocha is a beautiful fluid movement that has sustaining diagonal supports, which causes a broken rhythm that sounds like a garbled trot. Instead of a very sharp, clear "trat" it is softer as "tras" with one foot slightly behind in the diagonal footfall. To watch it, it can look like a gaiting paso fino that is out of gait. Some say there are no lateral supports but I disagree. If that were true it would be a pure diagonal gait with two beats instead of an uneven 4-beat broken diagonal. It has to have a lateral support to provide the 4-beat cadence. The uneven beat is due to the flight time of a foot in suspension or the amount of time the foot remains on the ground in support.

Generally what you will see, for example, as the left rear lands, the left front leaves the ground, as it nears it's pinnacle of flight, the right rear leaves the ground as well, as left front lands, so does the right rear immediately after it and then begins the right front movement soon after. It gives the appearance of a horse almost in paso gait but having a very distinct diagonal tendency or a horse having weak lateral supports and suspensions. If you watched for paso gait, your eyes would have a hard time discerning any lateral tendencies, but if you look at only one diagonal, you'll see a very distinctive footfall.

Colombians use the term "paso" to describe the trochadors emphasizing it's heritage and the propensity of the gait to lack concussive movements; in other words, it's rather smooth and easy to sit with little jarring. Recall that the term "paso" is about the step. Not about gait, but how the horse moves to perform his step. Pasos are very distinctive in how they move their feet, even in a walk or canter, there are subtleties that make it a paso cantering instead of a QH.

Because the paso fino's heritage comes from horses with diagonal genetics we tend to say a horse is "trocha" that is diagonal in his way of going. If it doesn't have the timing, fluidity, sustaining qualities of trocha then it's not, but simply a horse out of kilter and maybe trotty, maybe pacey, or all of it together.

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The term "pasitrote" came up in a discussion about my stallion when he was at Dave Jone's place for training. The horse was under saddle and as we watched him, we argued his gaiting tendencies. Dave said he was trocha, I said he was paso. Now the horse was trotting beautifully for his trainer. When I rode him, he had the greatest float in his trot, wonderful to sit. I said he was paso because of the way he used himself, particularly his rear when turning, very square.

Dave called it pasitrote and said he would eventually go into paso gait. Whatever it was, he wasn't trocha, but very diagonal and very smooth to ride. I said he was diagonal because he was very stiff in the spine and as soon as he suppled, he'd gait paso fino not trocha. Dave agreed. Dave used the two terms, trocha and pasitrote, interchangeably, but I thought the use confusing and don't use either terms in that sense. I use the term "trocha" to mean a type of gait and the term "pasitrote" is not used at all. I prefer to say a paso that tends to be diagonal or trotty instead. I believe that is the real meaning behind "pasitrote"--a trotty paso fino not trocha.

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Trocha has a very specific definition for a specific type of gait. This term when discussing a paso fino with diagonal tendencies confuses the distinction. I believe the discussion with DJ illustrates the problem and confusion. The horse was obviously not in paso fino nor trocha. Trotty as the dickens though. DJ called it pasitrote, I called it a stiff paso that was trotty or out of gait. We concluded we meant the same thing. Amazing too because we both agreed about the same course of action to get him into paso gait.

This is the problem we have today with the terms. The film TerryW mentioned is not entirely correct with how it describes the trocha gait or pasitrote. However, it does correctly demonstrate trocha or what is called pasitrote. Here the terms are used interchangeably as well. The other problem is the term is also used to describe a horse that is not in paso gait with diagonal tendencies. Unfortunately the definition ends there. What has happened in the USA is we have taken a term that defines a gait to mean an undesired, negative quality of the paso fino breed. This is completely erroneous, which I will explain further.

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I believe the negative aspect of "trocha" what we tend to call diagonal expressions of paso fino gait is steeped in myth. We tend to believe the stories of the naturally gaited jennet horse and how it influenced the heritage of the paso fino breed. We believe the story without first asking what the heck is a jennet, where did it come from and what is this "gait" it expressed? We all tend to believe it was the pure isochronal, symmetrical, 4-beat gait of the paso fino. I don't know what role the Berber and Andalusian played in all of this, but we tend to negate their roles entirely and focus on this gait thing.

The facts are the paso fino developed sometime in the 1800's. Allot of Spanish and N. African horses were imported along with some native stock to DR and PR. Not all of these horses had a paso fino gait. I doubt the paso fino gait as we know it today really existed back then. Recall, many horses of paso fino heritage trace directly back to Spanish Andalusians or to Berbers and many horses of paso fino heritage also paced. So, to reject diagonal or lateral tendencies as "unnatural" goes back to us believing in the paso fino creation mythology of the jennet horse who apparently had great powers to influence all things we call paso fino.

All paso finos have some diagonal and lateral tendencies OR the paso fino could not perform the paso fino gait. What the genetic inheritance is, is still a mystery. Again, all we need to do is look at our own USA breeds to see the same phenomenon. The foxtrotter will have pacey horses, the TWH will be trotty or pacey and the saddlebred is the same.

The truth, as much as we'd like to ignore it, is the paso fino horse has the genetics to trot and pace and anything in between. How it does the in between has obsessed so many that they reject everything else for the isochronal gait. In my opinion, this is unrealistic and quite damaging to the breed. I only need to point to the PPR history to illustrate.

So, with our obsession about paso fino gait, we reject diagonal tendencies and for the lack of understanding what paso is, we call it something else. We call it "trocha" and we say it is a bad thing. No it's not. What's bad is if the horse is diagonal and still out of gait because there are diagonal gaits in the paso fino breed. In Colombia it is developing into a breed of itself, the trochador exhibiting the trocha gait that was/is still a part of the paso heritage, and in Puerto Rico it is called the sobre trote and is part of the PPR paso fino breed. The footfall sequence is the same but the execution is different. However, the point is, paso finos have always demonstrated diagonal gaits. That is until very recent history where our obsession for paso gait and our beliefs steeped in mythology has ignored historical facts.

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If we took the time to glean out fact from fiction, it would become immediately self evident that we have taken only a portion of the breed to focus on. History does have some influence on why this has happened. Why have horse shows throughout the paso fino kingdom that demonstrated the isochronal aspects of the breed only? We are missing a vital piece of information to understand why that happened. When did it become obvious the horse had developed into something distinctively different than its ancestors? Is this why only certain aspects, mainly how it gaited, were demonstrated or shown off? I think so. Also it is interesting how this emphasis seemed to happen not in small parts of the Spanish colonies but appears to have occurred simultaneously suggesting a common interchange in the earliest part of the breed(s) development.

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The unfortunate consequence to all of this is found in this discussion. Gait, gait, gait, gait...not just any gait, but paso fino gait and the intolerance for anything that is not perfectly isochronal. Unfortunate too is the belief that if it is not isochronal then it is not smooth or easy to sit. Again, the fact is very few horses are truly isochronal. Most are not. I'd say 90%+ are not. Again, I believe this is steeped in the mysticism of what paso fino gait is. I remind myself again that "paso" is about step not gait. It is the "how" of gait not gait itself. If pasos developed a plodding, smooth, isochronal 4-beat gait that was droopy and sloppy, I doubt it would have survived.

Something happened to modify a mixture of horses with lateral and diagonal tendencies into a different horse with the tendency to perform isochronally. Yet, at the same time, something else was also developed in how this gait was performed. We tend to attribute this to a mythical horse called the jennet, but I suspect otherwise.

A fine illustration of what paso gait is beyond it's isochronal tendencies is to look at the Colombian trochador and trote y galope horses. A tremendous example of the genetic importance of paso. There is a reason the paso has been used extensively to develop other modalities. Why use Lusitano crosses and the paso criollo? Why not just take some Lusitanos or Andalusians without the paso and get the trodador or trote y galope? Or why not try a TWH with an Andalusian? Purely speculative on my part, but I suspect it has to do with the genetic "purity" that cannot be found anywhere else. Whatever it was the paso fino had to change the expression of how a gait is performed and the genetic commonality between pasos and its ancestors. Also the time in which these crosses occurred where perhaps a positive response happened. Instead of diluting the expression, it was enhanced.

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We need to put the negative connotation about lateral and diagonal tendencies back into the paso fino gait and out of the paso fino breed. The paso fino breed is a mix of trotting and pacing horses along with the genetic inheritance to perform a symmetrical, isochronal gait. It can run, it can trot, it can walk, it can trocha, it can andadura, and it can paso gait. Not all paso fino horses can perform the perfect paso fino gait. Very few can, most come close, but few are truly in a 4-beat gait. We've obsessed about this one trait that we forget it is both the lateral and diagonal aspects PLUS the other genetic parts that make it paso gait to begin with. To get this in one perfect package is saying something.

People constantly grind themselves into pulp worrying about this gait thing. I say if you study the masters of horsemanship, if you choose a horse with sound conformation, if the genes are there, your horse will gait. Expecting a paso horse to be born perfectly in gait, to take your weight and all the contraptions you put on it and gait, and to then expect it to gait a certain way is asking too much. We expect our horses to compensate for everything we do to it and then gait without our assistance of any kind. Quite honestly, when I think about it, I understand fully why only the paso fino gait was emphasized in the show ring. It is a rare instance indeed to own such a horse.

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EDIT

I might add another comment about the notion of "natural". We emphasize the genetic tendency to be perform an isochronic gait by prohibiting any weight or shoeing configuration which may enhance the movement. While in other breeds it is not unusual to see different weighted shoes, different toes or heels on a shoe, and different materials used for shoes, PFHA prohibits such practices. I think this is a good thing, however, it also introduces greater variability in gait expression due to the fact that few horses will be perfectly balanced and isochronal for the entire performance. Our issue with "trocha" has to do with the current tendency for horses to escape the pressures of performance (tired, braced, what have you) and become more diagonal. It wasn't so long ago, they'd get pacey. Either way, the inability to sustain the most isochronal footfall is a fault while in competition. Today, we tend to ignore much about what is paso.

Natural is is what natural does. To me, if we spent less time about getting a horse competitive and more time getting a horse fitted, suppled and balanced, we'd enjoy our horses more. I suspect we'd see less numbers in the show ring too but the quality that did show would be tremendous. Right now, I see allot of average performances by horses that I think are way above average or should be completely removed from competition. Essentially we have lowered our standards to allow more to compete by excusing the average performance saying it is because we have to "save" the horse or the performance. Really what we are doing is protecting our own inadequacies to get the best out of the horse and allowing the horse to continually compensate causing allot of mediocrity. We then say it's ok to be mediocre because pasos are so variable in expression. This confuses the issue when discussing what is gait and how it pertains to the breed.

[Finogirl]

Carol -

By Jove I think she's got it !!!! - thanks for your explanation it all went click when you described it like that :idea: so now I know I understand the gait !!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

I also now can understand better what others have said so this is good.

Would it also be fair to say that the Trocha is also a bit more elevated .....it certainly looks that way on a Youtube.

[Cindy]

:rofl

Candice is back. You didn't even last two weeks. :hitting

[Pasogirlz]

For Candice.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b385/pasogirlz/EclipsedelClassico035.jpg

[Pasomom]

Welcome Home Candice ;-)

[motorgypsy]

We LOVE you Candice. You have to admit that this forum is much cheaper than smoking or a drinking problem as a second addiction (the first being paso finos!!!)

[motorgypsy]

Finogirl be careful with the idea that you have a "starting foot" for gait. The horse can start with any foot it chooses and the gait will still be the same. Yes Carol's example is a very visual way of showing how the gait can be off and it is also true of a horse who is too lateral. You will have 1..2......3..4....1..2....3..4 with 1 and 2 being legs on the same side instead of diagonals.

Notice the interesting thing about the PFHA required paso fino gait is that it is like a pen balancing on its point. The show required paso fino gait is the exact center between the trot and the pace. You see why in answer to your question you have had several people say "The horse is not a machine - it will go slightly off the perfect 4 beat" for a variety of reasons. This is not uncommon. And Candice's discussion explains some additional reasons besides the usual recent trim, tired or out of shape. The horse can be REAAALLLY diagonal, almost to trot, or nearly square and just a tiny bit diagonal, and the same thing with off on the lateral side. There is such a huge range of possibilities so you see just how difficult it is for the horse to remain in that gait indefinitely without a little variation at least.

So in conclusion - if you are riding a paso fino and some other paso fino rider tells you your horse is in trocha, just smile and say thank you and don't worry about it. The truly knowledgeable can make suggestions on how to supple your horse and exercise it so it can be more square gaited but for trail and pleasure riding it's not a sin for the horse to use the "resting gaits".

I would STRONGLY recommend that any of you can do so, attend MUNDIAL in Jacksonville I think in November. It is SUCH FUN and you'll get to see all the diagonals too. It's a real education and a great time!!!

[Brigitte]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/Brigi25/P6080185.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/Brigi25/P6090237.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/Brigi26/P2190251.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/Brigi25/CDPictures115.jpg

[Brigitte]

All of those pictured above are trocha horses. There is a show this weekend, I'll try to get some trocha horses on video

[Finogirl]

The pictures are great thanks and I look forward to seeing any footage you can get. :smile:

[CarolU]

Carol -

Would it also be fair to say that the Trocha is also a bit more elevated .....it certainly looks that way on a Youtube.

I think that depends on the horse. Technically 'fino' is a low gait. In PR a horse is penalized if the foot raises more then six inches off the board. They look for a low and even footfall. Height and board-slamming are more popular in America and here it seems to be rewarded. The stallions sound like thunder rolling down the board (to me).

In Trocha and Trote y Gallope competitions, they like height and action. But trocha as a resting gait for a Paso Fino won't have any more height then the horse has naturally in paso gait.

I'd like to suggest taking Candice's post and making it a sticky or putting it in an article bank. It certainly helps new people understand trocha and paso.

[Brigitte]

Trocha usually is a little more elevated, though some are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LGEzgkqyEQ
This horse was Fuera de Concurso here

[Finogirl]

Thanks Brigitte, yes I can see the lateral gait in this footage very well. :smile:

[Brigitte]

Finogirl,
I need to emphasize this. The footfall is diagonal. I have some more videos coming up from this weekend's show, will load them up as soon as I got time

[Terry Wallace]

Enter the term "TROCHADA"...

In reviewing the RFD TV segment with Rick Meyer's gait modalities clinic for Great Lakes region...Rick calls it Trochada when a horse is ALMOST, but not quite in Paso Fino gait..... from the diagonal.
He says trochada is the other side of trocha that is closest to gait. Head in the other direction and you go toward pace.

Sooo.....is trochada the same as pasitrocha?

This is the first time I heard the term "trochada"..... do judges all agree on what this term is?

[Cindy]

I would have to say that, yes, "trochada" would be pasitrocha. But I think Rick made the word up. :lol:

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

But I think Rick made the word up. :lol:

I have to agreed with you CIndy!


Saludos!

Felix

[Cindy]

I was sooo hoping you would, Felix. :hug