Question about bits

[Minouri]

I ride my Paso in just his jaquima usually. He's great on the trails in just that. The only problem I have...not really a problem...is that his gait is not nearly as smooth without a bit. Does anyone else find this?

I bought the Pony Boy bitless bridle and he does collect better with it. Infact I was pretty happy with his gait until yesterday when I wanted to show someone how smooth he can be. I went and got his bit....it's a Columbian rubber bit. I bought one identical to the one he had at his old barn. Wow was he smooth. Made me realize that what he'd been giving me with the bitless didn't even compare.

I suppose I could ride him in his bit all the time but I don't like his personality as much with the bit. As soon as the bit is in... his personality disappears.

I've tried him in just a snaffle and I bought another non severe all metal paso bit. At least that is what the woman who sold it to me said it was. He reacts the same to all three but he gaits best with his columbian.

His footfall is definately faster with less forward motion with his bit on. He tends to hang to the rail of the ring and look like we're taking a lesson. Is it possible that a bit makes him think that he's working?

Most of my rides are just for fun and I like him to engage in my antics with me. We run around opening and closing gates, moving cones around, playing ball games with other horses. Sometimes I think he reads my mind. We have a blast together. Just running around.

Put a bit on and he feels like a different horse. Not a bad horse. Not an out of control horse. We just dont' seem to have the connection we do normally. He spends more time chomping on the bit and moving it around than focusing on me. He's still very responsive. I'm probably explaining this poorly. Most people would probably prefer who he is with his bit on.

For example, bitless...I lean forward and cue him and we're off ...racing my fiance down the driveway. Laughing. Knowing full well that'll he'll stop at the end of the driveway. With his bit on he does everything from leg cues....and he stays smooth in his gait....at a reasonable speed...but we could never win the race. He doesn't open up his stride.

I've thought that maybe my hands pull back on him with his bit....but I make a conscious effor to only use pinkie pressure since we don't use his bit often. I try to keep a little slack in the riens.

My dressage teacher loved him in his bit. During lessons, she never wanted to see him in just his halter for the reasons I've listed above. But sometimes after our lessons we'd switch off and run around with just his jaquima. Even my trainer got a kick out of his transformation. He's more playful.

So my question is....the collection I get with the bit...is that possible in a jaquima? What would I need to learn to achieve that? I'd love to get the same quality ride without the bit.

Should I just be happy I have a horse I can ride two ways?

I figured if anyone would know...it would be someone here :)

[CarolU]

Some things you might try are to ride with both the jaquima and bit and double reins...try to establish a check cue with the jaquima that brings his head in and collects him (with the release right there) and use the bit as reinforcement to train the cue. Once he'll collect on the jaquima, take the bit off and try riding him without it. It is hard for a horse to maintain collection for a long time, so work up to longer periods gradually as he gets in better condition.

I wouldn't use a regular snaffle, but you might try a comfort snaffle or mullen mouth bit. Something that gives a little tongue relief and is not harsh.

I think only you can answer your question...you have to decide what is most important to you, smoothness or happiness. I alternate headgear for what I want...when I'm showing I use a mild shanked bit to get collection, when I'm working/training I use a Polly Trainer (like a jaquima) and when trail riding, a comfort snaffle. My horse's comfort, gait, and YES ATTITUDE, change with the headgear.

[Edurne]

Carol, why do you use a comfort snaffle for trail riding, if you use the jaquima for training.... or is it that you use a jaquima and bit?

I boasted to Coreen the other day, that for the first time I could feel Primero super collect at a corto, and what a difference that is than from his usual trail mode. We were doing serpentines bareback in the field. Super smooth, and no feeling of percussion - almost like riding a skate board. I boasted, because for the first time I think I could differentiate what the muscles in his back felt like. No bit.

[cowboy ed]

yes, you can have it both ways. i have some horses that perform differently according the type of bit and how i ride them. i can take the same horse on a trail ride with a comfort snaffle or bitless bridle, then just relax and take it easy.

[CarolU]

Carol, why do you use a comfort snaffle for trail riding, if you use the jaquima for training.... or is it that you use a jaquima and bit?


I do that for control. Zar will run through a bosal or get heavy on it if she wants to go bad enough. A snaffle leaves me in more control.

What Ed says is true...I ride Zar in an arena, round coral, or my pasture with the Parelli halter on...even ride with no headgear in the round coral. I ride with the Trainer when working for Trail Class or jumping, or learning anything new. And I ride with a bit when I'm working for a show, getting her in condition to be collected for a period of time.

As an interesting 'experiement' I did, I was training Zar to put her head in the headgear herself. SHe's SUPPOSED to open her mouth and accept the bit. Well, no way will she do that and accept a choice of bits. But she will put her head in the Parelli halter/hackmore willingly. So...if your horse could vote, what would they choose?

One day I could not find Zar's bridle (it was in my new bridle bag - DUH) and wanted to work her for show....so I used Diablo's instead, which has a medium port instead of the mild one Zar was used to. Talk about COLLECTION!!! With no contact at all, she was almost on her nose and very animated gait, push button turns. Yep, I could win in "Pleasure" on this mare. But I can tell you she hated every second of it. I took it off of her, promised her never to use it again.

[Minouri]

If I let Scooter vote, it would be an easy answer. He puts his nose in his jaquima for me....kinda wiggles in there while you hold it. His ears are up and relaxed. He stands a little impatiently for the Pony Boy bitless....but doesn't fight me. He grits his teeth against any bit.

The only other question I would have is regarding collecting and the postition of his back. I've heard that a collected horse is in a better position to hold the rider's weight. Am I doing any damage to his back by allowing him to ride uncollected?

I think I'm going to try the bit and the jaquima for a little while and see if I can't get him collecting just a little more in just his jaquima. Thanks for the great ideas!

[CarolU]

The only other question I would have is regarding collecting and the postition of his back. I've heard that a collected horse is in a better position to hold the rider's weight. Am I doing any damage to his back by allowing him to ride uncollected?


I've never heard this before. I think of all those QH's and grade horses that are ridden with no collection. I would think the horse would adjust himself to where it was the most comfortable. But honestly, I think a good saddlle fit is the most important thing.

If it were ME, what I would do is work him off the jaquima into the collection where he smooths out. Then provide the release right there. let him get 'sloppy' again, and recorrect, check and release. He'll soon figure out that if he stays framed up, you'll stay off the reins. Gradually build up time in correct gait/frame. Remember that it is a lot more work and requires muscles and conditioning to maintain for any period of time, so start with five minutes at a time with at least that walking in between for a while (say 1/2 hour) and then gradually lengthen the time in gait and shorten the walking time.

Other things that help improve gait are serpentines, 8's, snails (also called watchspring), small and large ciricles. Horses get bored with this, so it's better if you can do it around cones or even better, around trees or brush somewhere along the trail.

[Minouri]

Thanks Carol,

I really appreciate your thoughtful responses. I'm going to try it. After reading your post it sounds like I've gotten as he is....lol When I first got him I learned a lot about how to get him to maintain his gait....now I like to just get on and go. I'm going to have to work myself in short increments too...lol


I'll have to find something besides cones to go around....or work at retraining him.

:bsmile We were in huge rings all alone for so long I came up with crazy cone games to play with him....lol Some days we were barrel/cone racers. Some days the cones where sheep.....We'd run as fast as we could to the cone....pick it up....and deposit all the cones in the middle and run for the gate. He sees cones and he gets all excited that we're going to play a game with them....lol I might have to show him that sometimes people just use them as something to go around......whoopsie.

[CarolU]

ROFL... :rofl

I used to train for barrel racing and pole bending and know that once you've trained a horse that THAT is what barels and poles are for - you're not going to convince them otherwise easily.

I remember once at a show they used two poles to mark the finish line for barrels....bad mistake. The horses saw the poles and thought "pole bending" and cornered around them too. After the timer got run over, they got rid of the poles and used lime. LOL

No, I wouldn't use cones to train any patterns...LOL

[Lynn L.]

My trainer and I are working on teaching my girl how to collect. My trainer was taught more classically than I am used to. She really emphasizes balance in the horse as opposed to foot speed, yet.

Well, she prefers to train a young horse or retrain an older horse with a snaffle bit. She feels that this will allow the horse the feel of using the bit to help the horse balance himself with a rider on him. In order for the horse to balance correctly, he must shift his weight backwards (collection). By using a leverage bit, you are using a mechanical device which tells the horse to bend at the pole and raise his back. This is great, but only if the horse has developed the muscles for it. She uses the snaffle first, gets the horse in shape, and then moves onto a more refined bit.

The trainer also mentioned that she feels that the horse definitely carries the rider better with a little collection. When you add a rider to a horse's back, you overload the front end. The best way for a horse to balance itself is to shift the weight to the back. However, since you just can't tell a horse to shift its weight back, a bit makes the concept a little clearer.

My trainer is a former Parelli 3 star trainer. She understands my concerns about wanting natural and what is best for the horse. I have to say however, that my horses pay attention and move better with the bit. That is enough for me to generally ride with a bit. In your case, however, I would try to switch to a myler or something that is definitely not a "paso" bit. My mare refuses to open her mouth for any typical paso bits. She physically will stop and not go forward if you use one. However, with the myler bit or a snaffle, she is fine. I do believe that horses have "flashbacks" to their earlier lives!

One last note. Do you change your attitude when you put a bit in? Does that mean in your mind that you are going to work instead of play? Your body will reflect whatever you are thinking in your head. So, go out with the thought of play a few times when you use a bit. That might change his attitude a little, too. :D

I hope this made some sense. I am learning so much, I sometimes can't get it out of my mind right! :oops:

[Minouri]

Lynn,

Thank you for writing such a long post. It's very helpful to hear other opinions and ideas.

I would tell myself to relax and play with my horse....but any more playful than I am and he'll be riding me....lol

I wonder, though, if he doesn't flash back to an experience he had before? He DOES hate the round pen like no one's business.

I am going to play around with some different bit combinations, though. I'll keep you updated :)

[stella]

I had a more classical background too, before having pasos, but I dont really think snaffles are the answer - for some Pasos, but not for others, its a conformational thing related to gait I dont have the time or space to get detailed with...
Besides, I think with the sensitivity and responsiveness of the paso, a bosal of some sort does tend to be good training headgear that helps keep them VERY light on the bit later.

Having said that, I also feel it DEPENDS on both the TYPE of headgear, and how its set, too. If you are saying it ISNT a Pasofino bosal, and its a Ponyboy...I assume its primarily made for trotting horses, going in a trotting frame........and this can be a somewhat different headset, displacing the weight to balance and be centered DIFFERENTLY than a gaited horse, and pasofinos in particular. The ideal center of balance is further back, and while a naturally well-gaited horse may still be in gait with the head/neck not QUITE ideally helping displace forhand weight, its going to BE BETTER if at the ideal point.....and whatever bit you have, is helping reposition his NECK(root first.more important of the 2) and head.

It IS possible that this particular bitless bridle can be adjusted differently than used on a trotter, and work as well as the bit- and even different horses need the Colombian bosals adjusted individually - depending on conformation of the neck/poll, how the neck sets into the body, a horse may need to work with it tighter or looser- either more nose pressure than chin, or more curb pressure/less on the nose, fairly even, etc.

And YES....MANY pasos ultimately work MUCH better with a bit, as far as collection, that's why learning to respond to a bit is called "finishing" a horse.

You might find that if you ride with the bit more often, you will condition his muscles AND HIS BRAIN to get into the habit to always work more in the frame the bit puts him in, and he will work as well(or more so)in the bitless bridle as in the bit.....called, 'self-carriage."

[Edurne]

when you guys ride in a jaquima - do you use a hard nose band or the soft one that comes with the package?

[cowboy ed]

you are right on target, stella! that is what i find to be the case most often.

edurne, if you are talking about just a leisurely trail ride with a well trained horse, then the soft noseband is just fine. if you are working with a green horse, you might want the noseband that is a little stiffer.
however, the more work i do with these horses, what i find is that soft and light in the hands and headgear works best.

[stella]

100% agree with you on that, ed! A horse maybe be started with a stiffer noseband the first few rides or even weeks, til he/she gets a bit of security about what they're doing, just so they NEVER get a chance to find out they MIGHT be stronger than you by accident of a bit of "flight," but ALWAYS the soft light hand.....and then, LESS is MORE, the light bosal and only as much seat/hand/leg as is necessary to communicate. The longer they're under saddle, the more the understand the slightest nuances...kind of like adding "adjectives and adverbs" to your cues.

[finolover]

i ordered a bit , jointed...with a copper roller in the spoon..this is what they sent :mad: name stamped on the bit is VIDAL $125.00
is this a mild bit, i know they are only as mild as the hand on the rein...
try it or send it back ?????
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b389/finolover/halfsizespoon.jpg

[Terry Wallace]

How tall is the spoon? "Jointed" means a jointed mouthpiece...this bit does not have that...it looks like a solid spoon mouthpiece.

Maybe a better question is...what are you trying to achieve with this bit?

The shanks have a lot of curve, making the shanks less severe....

[cowboy ed]

earl, although it isnt exactly what you ordered, i would try that bit if i were you. i have one very similar to that, and it works well with my horses.

[Pasogirlz]

I would try it too. You just never know what will work and that bit doesn't look too scary. But if eveyone wanted to chime in and we can discuss different bits and what they do or don't do...that would be great. :D