Minimum Height Requirement for La Mundial

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Minimum Height Requirement for La Mundial


33 to 40 Months*** 1 34cm Males 1 32cm Females

40 to 48 Months*** 1 35cm Males 1 33cm Females

48 to 60 Months*** 1 36cm Males 1 34cm Females


60 to 72 Months*** 1 38cm Males 1 36cm Females

Over 72 Months*** 1 38cm Males 1 36cm Females


1,36 cm = 13 hands, 1 and 9/16 inches
1,38 cm = 13 hands, 2 and 5/16 inches

1,42 cm= 14 hands




copied from The Confepaso Rules

For Colombian Trocha Pura, Paso Fino and Performance horses
MALE
From 18 to 24 months……………….. 1.29 meters (4.23 feet, 50.787 inches)
From 24 to 30 months……………….. 1.32 meters (4.33 feet, 51.968 inches)
From 30 to 36 months……………….. 1.34 meters (4.39 feet, 52.755 inches)
From 36 to 48 months……………….. 1.35 meters (4.42 feet, 53.149 inches)
From 48 to 60 months……………….. 1.36 meters (4.46 feet, 53.543 inches)
Over 60 months……………………... 1.38 meters (4.52 feet, 54.330 inches)
FEMALE
From 18 to 24 months……………….. 1.28 meters (4.19 feet, 50.393 inches)
From 24 to 30 months……………….. 1.31 meters (4.29 feet, 51.574 inches)
From 30 to 36 months……………….. 1.32 meters (4.33 feet, 51.968 inches)
From 36 to 48 months……………….. 1.33 meters (4.36 feet, 52.362 inches)
From 48 to 60 months……………….. 1.34 meters (4.39 feet, 52.755 inches)
Over 60 months……………………... 1.36 meters (4.46 feet, 53.543 inches)
Paragraph. - Any animal which does not meet the minimum height requirement
corresponding to the age division in which it is to compete, will not be allowed to enter.



Saludos!

[Mona Lisa]

I went to the Mundial about 8 years ago and I remember there was a stallion that was very well known in the US that was not able to compete because of his height. I cannot remember his name but I do remember thinking what an odd rule.

Mona

[Cindy]

That was Director. I don't think the rule is odd at all. I don't think WE need such a rule. But I do think that the rules for International competition should be a bit more strict to adhear more to the breed standard. And the breed standard SHOULD have height requirements.

[Terry Wallace]

Question here... why (since many Paso Finos are UNDER 14HH) does this rule exist? What are the registration requirements under this type of rule...I know its not PFHA...is it a Colombian Rule? A PR rule?

Why would you exclude a 13.2HH horse who was fine in every other way?

That rule would certainly preclude a LOT of PFHA horses from showing...

I'm all FOR bigger horses..but why this rule? What breed standard does it correspond to...from what registry I guess I'm asking...

[Brigitte]

I think it's a good rule. For the Trote Y Galope, Trocha Y Galope the minimum height is 1.40 for males 1.38 for females

[motorgypsy]

Good thing Chinook has high withers! ;-) ;-)

Is there a limit on hoof length? I can see this tiny fino filly with six inch long hooves so she'll meet the height standard for mundial???

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Very good question MG!

La Mundial (Confepaso rules) should not exceed 4 inches not shod and 4 1/2 inches shod!, I think is the same as PFHA rules!

Translation: 10.2 cm =4 inches
11.5 cm =4 1/2 inches


Shoeing! Rules from Confepaso

Horse shoes. - Normal horse shoes. The width of the horse shoes should not exceed
one (1) centimeter.

Measuring the height of the hoof. - Using a metal calibrated ruler from the center of
the coronet band to the toe which will not exceed four inches (10.2 cm.) and from the
coronet band to the heel from 1.5 inches (3.81 cm.).

1) The horses should be shod in order to participate, with the exception of the
horses shown in-hand. The horse shoes should be alike (in pairs).
2) The use of corrective or therapeutic shoes is prohibited.
3) The horses’ feet cannot be warped, whether they are shod or not. They must be
submitted to tests for evidence of pain in their hooves, measurable by special
instruments designed for this purpose.
4) The height of the hoof must be 10.2 centimeters unshod or 11.5 centimeters with
shoes. Refer to the diagram.



Saludos!

[Cindy]

Question here... why (since many Paso Finos are UNDER 14HH) does this rule exist? What are the registration requirements under this type of rule...I know its not PFHA...is it a Colombian Rule? A PR rule?

Why would you exclude a 13.2HH horse who was fine in every other way?

That rule would certainly preclude a LOT of PFHA horses from showing...

I'm all FOR bigger horses..but why this rule? What breed standard does it correspond to...from what registry I guess I'm asking...

This is not the rule of a registry. This is the rule of an International Paso Fino horse SHOW Association. And it exists to enforce the Paso Fino breed standard in the shows conducted under it's governance. If you read the Paso Fino breed standard even in our own Association you will see that the minimum height of a Paso Fino per the breed standard is 13.2. This does not mean that every horse registered must be at least 13.2 any more than it means that a horse with too short a neck cannot be registered. It is simply the standard to which horses should be bred. And one would exclude a horse who is under 13.2 and fine in every other way because it does not meet the requirements that have been set forth by the Association under which it is showing. There are also many conformation defects that are disallowed such as any mouth deformation. Why would one NOT want to exclude horses with faults from International competition? Aren't YOU the one who is always wanting a grading board for Paso Finos? And higher standards for breeding horses? I find it very odd that as often as you talk about tightening the standards for the breed you would find this rule in any way shape or form out of line.

[Monty]

Ok a question - don't bite me - but what crosses my mind figuring out the heights and horses general growth patterns - could part of the reason for a rule like this ,to stop training ,and riding, too immature/young horses ?
Fresians can't be ridden ot driven in a show until they reach 3 yrs old .

[CarolU]

Ok a qurstion - don't bite me - but what crosses my mind figuring out the heights and horses general growth patterns - could part of the reason for a rule like this ,to stop training ,and riding, too immature/young horses ?
Fresians can't be ridden ot driven in a show until they reach 3 yrs old .

Actually, I think it is to ALLOW it. It is to account for horses being smaller when they are younger.

I fully agree with not showing horses under 36 months of age. In fact they should set the rules so that is when they start RIDING, not start Showing. I've seen many fully collected 30 month-olds, and have to wonder how long they've been under saddle.

It is interesting how they have size requirements for the horses, but none for the riders.

[motorgypsy]

Obviously I don't think horses should be overweighted and we don't start riding ours until they are five but trying to select a weight max for a give horse is not easy. One corto around the arena with a heavy rider on a horse over 6 years old is a world of difference from a heavy rider doing a hunter pace of 8 miles on a flexy, long pasterned youngster.

One thing that could be done though is a pastern flex test. And any horse who flexes beyond a certain per cent of the angle without a rider while standing would be considered over weighted. This is what worries me the most is damage to the suspensories as well as riding horses too hard when young.

[CarolU]

If it was one corto around the arena it wouldn't be a problem, but we all know it isn't once, nor is it only at the show. It's every day for several months getting ready for the show.

Change comes slowly. Hopefully this will change too.

[PasoPerson38]

Felix GREAT info!
Do you have any of the rules regarding color and markings?

I think the rules are great, they finally set some Standards and Requirments for the breed.
Do they have any rules on CONFORMATION faults??

[motorgypsy]

Now with today's knowledge of color genetics and the fact that horses with color are not inferior in any way to solid colored horses I'd like to see all the associations do away with color requirements unless they are a true color registry like the palomino or buckskin registry. I personally don't like pinto colored horses but if a pinto colored horse were the best in the ring there is no reason it should not be awarded first place.

[PasoPerson38]

Yes I agree.

But in a TRUE world...ANY horse that can be registered SHOULD be allowed to show. If they are going to make breed requirments then there should be breed tests, like what is done with MANY other breed. If they don't meet the breed standards they can't be Registered OR bred to (at least not bred and have a registered baby).

[Kerry W]

Felix posted a link to the rules here (thank you Doctor Pollock!): http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=199852

About CONFEPASO...it is a confederation of associations from various countries. There were no doubt discussions about, compromises made, and votes taken from all entities involved, when they established the rules. When dealing with different cultures, we simply must understand and respect their ideals and/or cultural differences, or we must forfeit the right to that same understanding and respect. That is what cooperation is all about, and in order to be able to come together under one entity, cooperation is essential. While we may not agree with some of the rules, we have to look at the bigger picture...what an opportunity this is for us to come together in a cooperative effort, to showcase this breed. I think it's very exciting! So to say "in the REAL world"....I think we have to look at it in context. The REAL world does not end at our borders. ;-)

[Terry Wallace]

Yes Cindy..I Long for a grading board.... it has nothing to do with my question...wait..maybe it does...and that would be..since there is NO grading board...why does the rule exist?

It was just a question Cindy... I know very little about those rules..I had read them on the PFHA website and had seen that what I'd call excessive white markings would not be allowed to show either... now excessive white and being only 13.2HH would not consitiute a "fault"... in the PFHA registry.... a sow mouth, a parrot mouth or something like that surely is a fault but not quite the same as being 13.2HH or having a white leg go past the hock or knee...Oh yes I'd like to see a tighter breed standard..you bet I would... no question there. I asked that question because I wanted to know the thinking behind it...I figured it was because some other registry required it..thats ALL...! :D

[Cindy]

Those things, color and height, ARE a fault if they are undesirable for a particular breed. They may not be a soundness fault, however, if the breed does not want 13 hand pintos to be considered within their breed standard, a 13 hand pinto would be faulted within such breed. And if competition rules require that the horses shown within their competitions adhear to the breed standard, PFHA rules do not require this, then those horses who are 13 hand pintos would not be allowed to compete. Please understand that I am making no statement here whatsoever as to my opinion as to whether or not 13 hand pintos should be included in anything, just discussing the situation as it exists.

Think of it this way, if we were discussing an International Freisian competition, do you think that they would allow a horse that looked like the Budweiser Clydesdales to compete? No, Why? Becuase their breed standard is limited to black horses. A non-black Freisian, if there was a possibility of it existing, would not be considered to meet the breed standard. And to allow that would change the breed and it's standards all together thus making it an entirely different breed than what it is now. Would that be wrong? Well, to some I have no doubt that it would be blasphemous. Others would welcome the variety. But who would be right? And how would it affect the breed?

[Terry Wallace]

They may not be a soundness fault, Right...agreed.

However Freisans and Clydedales are not quite the same as Paso Finos from PR vs Paso Finos from USA vs Paso Finos from Colombia, or Paso Finos from anywhere else...as you are talking two distinct and different breeds with your analogy. :D

BUT...I DO get what you are saying...

Personally I'd be against supporting such a show organization that makes faults of colors and heights as set forth in this paricular example...thats just IMO... and NO..I don't want to see any 12HH Pasos Registered !! Or 14HH "Shetlands"..... :D

I would think if more USA breeders disagreed with such "rules" they would not be apt to support it either...and that would of course be their own personal choice.

Interesting learning more about this..I'm glad this thread was posted.

[Cindy]

However Freisans and Clydedales are not quite the same as Paso Finos from PR vs Paso Finos from USA vs Paso Finos from Colombia, or Paso Finos from anywhere else...as you are talking two distinct and different breeds with your analogy.


And some would say that you are talking three different breeds in your response. :D And they would have a point. Being from the USA and growing up with the American version of the Paso Fino, I have no doubt that I view the Paso Fino horse differently that one who grew up with only Colombian Pasos or only Puerto Rican Paso Finos. In fact I know this to be true. But I can also see the breed from their viewpoint as well and this gives me even greater understnading. And I would hope that they can see the breed from my viewpoint as well. And most, but not all, do. That is why for International competition we must look to all the viewpoints and come up with a consensus of what we feel is most important within our three distinctly different versions of the Paso Fino horse. We cannot just discount the issues that we disagree with in this country that have helped to make our breed what it is today any more than the other countries can disount our country's contributions to the breed. We must show a common respect for one another.

[Pasogirlz]

I have no doubt that I view the Paso Fino horse differently that one who grew up with only Colombian Pasos or only Puerto Rican Paso Finos. In fact I know this to be true. But I can also see the breed from their viewpoint as well and this gives me even greater understnading. And I would hope that they can see the breed from my viewpoint as well. And most, but not all, do.

:not worthy

[Terry Wallace]

We must show a common respect for one another.


Yep...agreed. Don't mean we "have" to support such thinking...

I wonder if those rules will one day be changed? IMO...some of them are now outdated..just my opinion....one thing for sure...nothing ever stays the same for very long in this world...

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I have no doubt that I view the Paso Fino horse differently that one who grew up with only Colombian Pasos or only Puerto Rican Paso Finos. In fact I know this to be true. But I can also see the breed from their viewpoint as well and this gives me even greater understnading. And I would hope that they can see the breed from my viewpoint as well. And most, but not all, do.

:not worthy


I SECOND :not worthy

[Serendipity]

I to find this to be an interesting subject

I also would consider a grading program based on confirmation and maybe height some breeds issue temp papers till they can be graded by video or in person.Perhaps if a horse did not meet breed standereds +/- they were given a limited registry still a paso but can't have reg.offspring or be shown.???? Its hard to say but I to don't like to see horses under 13.2hh but I really hate seeing all the badly sickle and cowhocked horses basis the grading system on true paso fino gait and good conformation, add good size and any color and we won't be able to go wrong,IMHO it's be a true American Paso Fino and still hold on to all of its heritage again JMO

[CarolU]

But what Terry said is also true. You can see something, respect other's views in something, but that doesn't mean YOU have to support it. Vote with your pocketbook and don't support Confepaso if you disagree with their rules.

That is pretty easy.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

But what Terry said is also true. You can see something, respect other's views in something, but that doesn't mean YOU have to support it. Vote with your pocketbook and don't support Confepaso if you disagree with their rules.

That is pretty easy.


:confused why not try to work together in reaching a goal :?:

[Cindy]

While I would not have put it quite that way. International competitions are not for everyone. If it is not your cup of tea, you do not have to participate. But to say to "not support it" I feel is very negative to the breed. One can not participate in an event and still show support for those who may not be of the same opinion as oneself but are still working toward the common goal of promoting the Paso Fino horse. This is one of the problems in our breed that needs to be overcome. We do not all have to share all the same ideas. We must learn to accept that others have ideas as well and that is OK. We must learn that we do not need to change the opinion of everyone else to our opinion in order to work together. We must learn to share ideas and philosophies. We must STOP the division and realize that, even though that other guy doesn't think the same way that I do, we al have ONE GOAL and ONE LOVE and that is the Paso Fino horse. And just because that other guy wants to exhibit his Paso Fino horse in a different manner than I do does not make him wrong and me right. It makes one more venue of promotion. Why on earth would anyone who was for the Paso Fino horse want to stomp on that? It is self defeating.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

:not worthy very well said! :not worthy

[Pasogirlz]

Brilliantly said Cindy. 8-)

[Terry Wallace]

I don't think anyone wants to "stomp" on it.

I think we mostly would like to know MORE.

Yes we can listen to other ideas and such....just as we can also decide if we are for it or against it or if it is truely "for the GOOD of the breed".

I don't see it as positive or negative either.....I see it as differing opinions.


I will say this..Cindy you are about the best ambassador of this breed I know of...you defend it like it is your life blood....and I suppose that to much extent... it is.... but it doesn't make it that way for everybody.

I still have many questions ...but I have been in this breed a mere ten years....no where near the time you have spent learning & understanding all the different aspects.

I don't think people like me who question things are just "negative" when they don't agree...they just don't agree!

[Cindy]

Terry, you are not the one who said to not support something. Disagreement is fine. Questioning is fine. Working to find a better way is fine. Saying to not support something that is not harmful to anyone just because it is not how YOU want things done is NOT fine.

Just for the record, there are many things that I disagree with. (I am sure none of you have ever noticed this fact about me. :D ) But the world does not revolve around me and what I think is right or the best way to do things. Though I may diagree with how something is run, I would never come on a public forum and tell people to not support it unless it was detrimental in some way.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Cindy that is it !!!! you received the TROPHY!
:not worthy :not worthy http://bestsmileys.com/tropheys/3.gif :not worthy :not worthy

[Cindy]

And just as a side note and for clarity of where I personally stand, while I intend to be present for some if not all of the competition, I will not be competing in the Mundial as it is not my cup of tea. :D But for all those whose cup of tea it is, I wish them the best of luck and the best of competition and hope that the show is well judged and well attended with satisfied competitors and a wealth of spectators.

Would you like a list of all the other activities that I choose to not partake in because they are not my cup of tea but give my full support to because they are the cup of tea to others who derive enjoyment from their horses by their participation?

[Terry Wallace]

Saying to not support something that is not harmful to anyone just because it is not how YOU want things done is NOT fine.


Agreed...

No argument here.....

Vote with your pocketbook and don't support Confepaso if you disagree with their rules.


I would however totally agree with that statement by CarolU, as that is the way most things are handled in this country....when you don't agree...you don't support. Its everybody's right in this country..that all I'm saying...its neither negative or positive...but it sure can send a message.

here is an analogy for you.... years ago the AQHA started to sway away from what the original American Quarter Horse was all about. Many of the people involved with the AQHA that were long-time breeders did not like that rules were changing, and the original type of "bulldog" QH was being lost. Welll those of like minds got together and they founded the Foundation QHA. They pulled all their support from AQHA and founded their own registry sticking to those original type rules.

I think there is room for everybody... and there should be registries, show assoc, ect... that people can believe in and support....thats all.

One more example... some years back..the AQHA wanted to limit the number of embryo transfers that mares could give in a year. Many of the AQHA members believing that it was an unfair ruling..because after all...stallions can produce as many babies per year as one cares to breed...so how can the AQHA justify limiting ET's from mares... welll..the AQHA stood fast its ground....the AQHA members pooled together in a class action lawsuit and WON. Its what the memebers wanted...and by gosh they got it...and I DO think it is up to members of associations to determine what they will and will not support financially... JMO

[Abejita]

Saying to not support something that is not harmful to anyone just because it is not how YOU want things done is NOT fine.



I really have not formed an opinion on the subject, Just being Devil's advocate here ..maybe some people DO feel it it harmful to them..If someone's farm aims to breed a Paso that is Pinto for example, and Mr or Mrs. American Public goes to a confepaso show like Mundial and sees and hears through discussion that Pintos or excessive white are not considered to adhere to the breed standard..after possibly reading PFHA info that says they come in all colors including Pinto..the 'breeder' may feel that it is a bad influence or at least confusing to the 'buying' public as they might not realize PFHA /Confepaso and the PPR Association are all independent entities...but in all honesty ..how many people learnig about Paso's or searching for their first one are going to make Mundial their first stop?

[Cindy]

Comparing the Quarter horse breed with the Paso Fino breed is like comparing Home Depot to your local family owned hardware store. The AQHA is big enough to withstand the things that you mention, we are not. And we must start to realize that we are small, not big and quit acting like we are big, not small. And start working with each other and not against. Otherwise we will NEVER be big, we will be gone. That is one of the biggest mistakes that we have collectively made as a breed and as an Association and it has caused us considerable harm.

The people who started the promotion of this breed in this country knew that fact and acted accordingly. They did not expect their work to be done for them and they did not expect the Association to be any more than a place through which they could all combine their efforts to promote the horse that they loved. And while they most certainly did not all get along all the time, they all worked together to grow the breed in this country and they did an astounding job with incredible growth for about the first 20 years. And then something happened, we got too big for our britches. And we decided that we did not have to do the work. That the Association was not "we". The the Association was "them". And that is where we are today. But we CANNOT stay here!!!!

[Terry Wallace]

VERY GOOD POINT Abejita..... I didn't even think of that aspect...and I love the pintos!

Cindy you are dead-right-on.... no disagreement here.

Point being is that if the associations wish to grow..they better listen to what members want...and one way to do that is to either pull or offer support. How associations grow is NOT by biting the hand that feeds them.... but by "stroking the forelock".... :D :lol:

[Finogirl]

I am personally against any horse being backed before 3 and this is just to make sure that the bones have set and everything has strengthened before weight and stress is put on a horse. However I do agree that horse mature at different rates, Lipizzaners are not backed till at least 4 if not 5 as they mature so slowly and live so long. Pasos are also a long lived breed but I do not know how they mature being new to the breed.

People should always be careful what they say about a certain breed when it is an opinion and not part of the rulebook, coloured Pasos are beautiful and people are very interested in them. Smaller Pasos should be allowed to be registered as they are a Paso but maybe they should have a different breed registry which means that breeding from anything that small is not allowed. The other thing is, until you breed your 13hh Paso to a 13hh Paso and see what they produce then you don't know how big a foal it is. We all know that some stallions and mares throw a lot bigger than themselves !! Just IMHO ! :D

[Cindy]

I really have not formed an opinion on the subject, Just being Devil's advocate here ..maybe some people DO feel it it harmful to them..If someone's farm aims to breed a Paso that is Pinto for example, and Mr or Mrs. American Public goes to a confepaso show like Mundial and sees and hears through discussion that Pintos or excessive white are not considered to adhere to the breed standard..after possibly reading PFHA info that says they come in all colors including Pinto..the 'breeder' may feel that it is a bad influence or at least confusing to the 'buying' public as they might not realize PFHA /Confepaso and the PPR Association are all independent entities...but in all honesty ..how many people learnig about Paso's or searching for their first one are going to make Mundial their first stop?


That is a very good point Sheri. My response to that looking to the positve would be this:

Anyone who is looking at the breed at the Mundial should realize that if they want a Pinto Paso Fino they would not be able to compete in some venues. They would not be able to compete in Colombia or in CONFEPASO shows. To be honest I am not sure where Puerto Rico stands on this issue at present so I cannot say in that respect. However, they do have venues in which to compete. My veiwpoint is this. Suppose that this individual of which we speak attends the Mundial and decides that they reallly, really like this breed of horse. Chances are that they have not read the CONFEPASO rule book at this time but perhaps they have noticed that there were no Pintos in the show and have inquired as to why. They just decide that they like Paso Fino horses in general. But they also really like the Pinto coloring and discover through their own research that this wonderful Paso Fino breed is indeed available in the wonderful Pinto coloring so they go and search for a Pinto Paso Fino. Even though they know that they cannot compete in some shows they also know that they can compete in PFHA with their Pinto Paso Finos. And they buy their Pinto and live happily ever after until of course someone tells them that their Pinto is descriminated against in the show ring because of it's coloring regardless of the number of Pinto National Champions in existence. :roll:

One other point to this particular discussion. How is this senario any different from the senario of someone going to a Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino show and thinking that anything that is not a Pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino cannot compete? And if I am a breeder of pure Colombian Paso Finos, should I be upset that someone is having a show in which only Pure Puerto Rican horses can compete?

[Abejita]

And if I am a breeder of pure Colombian Paso Finos, should I be upset that someone is having a show in which only Pure Puerto Rican horses can compete
No..I had to explain that about 2 times this past weekend.."It isnt fair they can show in our classes when we cant show in theirs" Uhhh yes it is ..they are registered in both associations, they pay the fees for both...why NOT show in both??..You gonna take your siamese cat to a Jack Russel Dog show????? (actually THAT would get interesting..) I think they finally got it..
and you pointed out something I hadnt considered..that the people learning about Pasos..were going to possibly buy a horse to show ..I was just more or less thinking that they would use show standards as a guide to what is good/bad in a Paso..even if they were just looking to buy a ..gasp...trail horse...heheheh

[CarolU]

Cindy...I agree that it is no different then a pure PR show or a pure COL show or a Pinto-only show, etc. What seems to be different in this thread is the innuendo that if you HAVE TO support Confepaso, that if you don't support Confepaso, then you are not loyal to the breed.

I disagree. You can fully support PFHA Paso Finos and not spend a dime on Confepaso and still support the breed fully. It is no different then those breeders and fans of COL Paso Finos not attending a pure PR PF show.

[Cindy]

Not attending and not being supportive are two different things.

[CarolU]

Well, I still don't agree. You can support Paso Finos and NOT support Confepaso, pure PR shows, or Pinto Paso-only shows, or breeding Largo horses, or breeding horses over 15 hh.

Just because you don't SUPPORT something does NOT mean you are AGAINST it!!!!!

It can mean that you are neutral about it. Support implies that you agree with something, aid in it, are an advocate for it, etc.

I don't support it. It doesn't bother me. It is a separate show group, just like the Pure PR horses are...I don't have to support them either.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Cindy! I admire you but most importantly I RESPECT YOU.!!! Someone said it! and I will say it too! YOU ARE A GREAT AMBASSADOR OF THE BREED!


Saludos!

[Terry Wallace]

Not attending and not being supportive are two different things.


Can I say...Yes & NO?


But most of the time....supporting does include attending...supporting by buying/sponsoring classes, or donating prizes for high point horses to the PFHA would be one way...but usually if I am supporting something...I'm there! I think the two go hand-in-hand for most people I know out here...JMO

[britzlove]

May as well chime in with my opinion:

Look at the strict standards held for Friesians by their Dutch based breed organization. They originated there, they were perfected there. I have no early history knowledge other than if they were brought to America early, then it was as a harness horse, not a saddle horse. But my point is, they don't say you can't cross breed, just that if you do you lose your status as a pure breeder. Now, we saw the horses and said, oh look how wonderful! I must try and ride one, then what would happen if I crossed it and so it goes. Still, I don't see pages and pages and pages of Americans trying to teach the Dutch how to make a Freisian.

We have the Standardbred, we have the Quarter Horse, the TN Walker, the Morgan, the Saddlebred, and dozens of other smaller # American breeds. Why is it we cannot be proud of our breeds and appreciative of imports? Now I am not saying that all paso horses be imported, but, not valuing the interpretation of the breeds countries of origin is just silly.

And yeah, it does go back to this ridiculous trail/show horse argument that wears me out here.

Here's the way I feel: breeding horses is an art, a careful analysis of form, function, ability, talent. Much the same way as breeding dogs too. If you are a breeder, you should strive for excellence in whatever the breed standard is. Anybody noticed more and more working, herding, sporting dogs being titled in tests of ability as well as AKC show champions?

I'm sorry I can get bashed on the head with a brick, but I still feel that excellence in the breed standard should be the primary goal of any breeder. So, if you want to breed trail horses, you should still breed an animal so that it's also trying to stay true to the breed. I fully believe that every single paso can be a pleasurable, enjoyable mount for riding in everyday life. You just have to invest the one thing missing from American thinking and that's time and patience.

As a spectator, when I see excellent examples of the breed, I am awestruck, literally. Thats what a paso is, the perfect blending of beauty, strength and importantly spirit/soul. As a spectator, I hope to find those horses at Mundial, and hopefully learn even more about them. I just do not understand this need to tear at the thing I consider most wonderous.

A well respected friend mentioned something to me, that I'd like to share here. We need to find the people that fit the breed, not fit the breed to the people. I really believe that we need to spend more time learning about the breed and less time trying to change it.


Just my take on it.

[CarolU]

And yeah, it does go back to this ridiculous trail/show horse argument that wears me out here.

I didn't see that argument anywhere in this thread. This has nothing to do about trail horses at all, we're talking PFHA shows and breed standard vs. Confepaso shows and their breed standard. That's it, unless you're opinion is that any horse with too much white, or is short or tall, a "trail horse." Which I should add, some do.

There is the group that is starting a narrow focus PF breed organization. You might be happier with them.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

:confused How inviting! How Positively INVITING!!!

[britzlove]

There is the group that is starting a narrow focus PF breed organization. You might be happier with them.

You know, I might be. If they are breed enthusiasts, lovers of paso fino horses.

But, I think that the breeds future is not safe in some hands. And what I did see is preaching about detriment to the breed talk. These horses are fully capable of anything, as they were designed. Some are better suited for somethings than others. They are still leaps and bounds above the rest of the horse world in my opinion.

I understand that my opinion does little to count for anything, but I think there are others, many others in the PFHA that want to keep the breed true to origin, and maybe I was reading a little into some things said so I appologize for that.

I just think that being more supportive of the international paso community is important, as without them, we would not have these horses.

[dcancel]

Lets be real...
There will always be conflicts between Confepaso and PFHA regulations. PFHA regulations were developed using the Paso Fino of Puerto Rico horse as its model and Confepaso uses the Caballo Criollo Colombiano Horse as there model. We here in the states have blended these strains and have not changed the description for this new breed or strain of Paso Horse we have created here.

DC

Don't shoot me :D

[britzlove]

Don't shoot me

Wouldn't dream of it, rather I commend you for simplifying something which I can never do.

Thanks from me.

[Terry Wallace]

There is the group that is starting a narrow focus PF breed organization.

What group is it Carol? Can you say here or is it in the formative stages?

JMO..but I don't really think people want to "change" the Paso Fino...they would like the breed standard adhered to for the most part. JMO

[Candice Burger]

The paso fino's greatest strength is its genetic diversity and its genetic depth.

I woke this morning thinking of this topic; the idea of international standardized rules for the breed. I asked, "is this possible?" Yes, it is. Then, "do I want it?" No, I don't. CONFEPASO is a confederation of countries represented by respective organizations recording the activities of the paso fino breed. At best, it is a flexible, although compromising organization. It does not include all interests from all sides. Pragmatically, I don't see how it can. Because of its compromising nature, it can't encompass all expressions seen from every country, culture, and respective organizations. The role is to find a common ground to test horses from all parts of the world using standards that reflect similar goals within each represented organization hopefully without forsaking the paso fino heritage.

Through the years, one frustration I hear uttered frequently is the lack of standards and the lack of unification in breed type. I know this well since I have a menagerie of mares that make me cringe inwardly sometimes when I see the different body shapes, colors, styles of carriage and gait amassed in one location. However, more times I am very grateful to have such a diverse animal knowing it represents the nature of the breed.

The paso fino is not a flat breed like many we are familiar with here in the USA. Although many of our breeds began by mixing other types/breeds to form another type/breed, they also focused on a specific type, a specific expression, and strict culling techniques. While this provides uniformity and consistency it also lacks compliant flexibility. The paso fino developed dimensionally to fulfill many needs not just the few specific ones. As a result, varying emphases has provided varying results. However varying, these results embody both artistic and practical requirements. Very few breeds accomplish this while still retaining much of its ancestral genetic material.

I've heard the arguments about whether Colombian horses and Puerto Rican horses are a "type" or a "breed". Maybe the paso fino, no matter the origin, is really more of a "type" and less of a "breed" by modern definitions. I have vacillated over this one argument for years. Many years I'll argue each country developed a breed; other years I'll argue the development of different types in the breed. Today and as I learn more about breeds, types, breeding and phenotype, I think the paso fino does not easily mold itself into a "breed".

Certainly we have minimum requirements for appearance, gait expression, and genetic responses, yet I still cannot find anything that offers the diversity within these confines like the paso fino. I cannot find in one breed the depth of expression in style of movement, character, phenotype or genotype like I do with the paso fino. I cannot find the random breeding results like I do with a paso fino when crossed either among the many sub-groups in the paso fino or when outcrossed. Will it gait? depends Will it have paso traits? depends Will it perform like a paso? depends. Amazing! Sometimes the cross is very paso looking and acting and sometimes the cross gives no clue it has a paso fino parent.

The above examples suggest genetic weaknesses as to prepotency or genetic homozygosity in the sense of a breed. Yet, and I mean this respectfully; look at the Trochador, the Trote y Galope and the Puerto Rican pintos. Do they contain the genetic purity of paso finos, originating purely from paso fino stock? My investigations suggest they do not. HOWEVER, through exposure to paso finos each have developed an acceptance as "paso", proving the genetic quality of the paso fino and ancestral genetic artifacts common among these groups. The lack of success in the above examples could be because it is not the paso fino, which lacks genetic ability, but because the other contributor is completely missing the genetic material to respond as a result of selection/culling methods.

We are creating entities and organizations based on our own dissatisfactions about what is paso fino. I want to re-emphasize this statement "based on dissatisfactions". "Of what?", I have to ask. Rarely, is it about dissatisfaction of the paso fino specifically. I observe more and more frustration having to do with controlling the outcome of the paso fino and very little to do with accepting the paso fino as it is.

Cindy's comments touched me deeply because what I read was the essence of what I believe the paso fino is. Less about controlling a situation because it does not perfectly match our ideals of how we specifically view the paso fino and more about the general aspects of what the paso fino is for the horseman.

I want to end this rambling thought by touching on the Youth Clinic Sheri is working on. If I could instill in our next generation one thing, it would be the awe inspiring power of the paso fino heritage. It cannot be confined (and so our many organizations), defined (as we argue what is paso), or duplicated. If the paso fino is a "breed" it is because of the unique ability to express so much in one animal; it is a complete horse. If we want our kids to learn about the breed it should be through the spirit of their horse and not through the limited confines of what we think our horses should be.

[CarolU]

There is the group that is starting a narrow focus PF breed organization.

What group is it Carol? Can you say here or is it in the formative stages?

JMO..but I don't really think people want to "change" the Paso Fino...they would like the breed standard adhered to for the most part. JMO

Terry, that group is the International Paso Fino Horse Federation being started by Besilu and CJ. From what I hear their intention is to start their own registry of select Paso Finos, and so not be bothered by the majority of Paso Fino owners in the U.S.. So if someone is indeed tired of reading about, seeing, or arguing about Trail and Pleasure horses, they can join this new registry that focuses entirely on this select group of specific show horses. I was not being rude. IF people indeed prefer these select horses and don't want to hear of or include the other horses, then they probably would be happier in the new registry. That's all.

------------------

Candice, I'm not quite sure I can agree with all you say. When I see Paso Finos I recognize them as a breed. Weather they are big, little, black, white, gray, or red, they all move basically the same way. They may have different builds and different looks. Some look more Arab and some look more Iberian, with most lying somewhere in between. I don't see other breeds having an exact LOOK.

I think what you are talking about is more about 'types', but I would still have a hard time defining each 'type' as "Trail," "Fino," "Pleasure," etc., ,"since many horse builds/looks have little in common. Compare an El Classico mare to Maraquita, they are both Fino. They certainly LOOK different.

And that is where I have a problem with Confepaso rules. I have seen Fino Palaminos and Fino Pintos. I saw a beautiful Amadeus son with a big white nose, who was as Fino as they come. I have trouble with an International organization calling these horses inferior and not worthy of showing. When Director couldn't show, I felt it was unfair.

Now, that is why I do not SUPPORT Confepaso. However, it is their show and they can make the rules however they want for their show. And if someone else wants to show there, that is no skin off my nose, just like me showing in a FOSH show is no skin off their's.

But I don't have to support an organization I feel is prejudicial.

[dcancel]

I hava a question:
If in 1984-86 when the Mundial was in PR they made exceptions for excessive white since it is a normal characteristic of the PR Paso Fino why do they not allow it now? What has changed, I am sure this particular characteristic has not changed, in fact I see more of it in the American Paso and the Colombian Paso these days, why deny these horses and there owners the opportunity to compete?

DC

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I hava a question:
If in 1984-86 when the Mundial was in PR they made exceptions for excessive white since it is a normal characteristic of the PR Paso Fino why do they not allow it now? What has changed, I am sure this particular characteristic has not changed, in fact I see more of it in the American Paso and the Colombian Paso these days, why deny these horses and there owners the opportunity to compete?

DC


Denisse wonderful point,

Perhaps if we contact the actual President of Confepaso Ana Salgado (in Puerto Rico) and "work together" in revising the rules! something might happend! or at least we might get some LOGICAL reasoning directly from the HORSES MOUTH!.

Here is Ms. Salgado e-mail, Anasalgado@International-pr.com Ms. Salgado like I said before, is the President of Confepaso!

Saludos!

[Candice Burger]

There was some change in the organization and rules. PR started the Mundial and it was always hosted in PR for many years until then.

[Candice Burger]

Carol I have no problems with you disagreeing. I've spent two decades dedicated to that question alone and will spend a few more researching it more.


I think what you are talking about is more about 'types', but I would still have a hard time defining each 'type' as "Trail," "Fino," "Pleasure," etc., ,"since many horse builds/looks have little in common. Compare an El Classico mare to Maraquita, they are both Fino. They certainly LOOK different.

When have I ever categorized pasos into performance types? I think you have me confused with someone else. As to El Classico and Maraquita, I can only say we are not even on the same plane of the discussion. I don't see the two horses the way you do. Perhaps that is why we are having so many problems in the USA.

[CarolU]

You were the one who brought up the "type" vs. "breed" discussion. Perhaps you should elaborate.

[Soltera]

Candice, I'm not quite sure I can agree with all you say. When I see Paso Finos I recognize them as a breed. Weather they are big, little, black, white, gray, or red, they all move basically the same way. They may have different builds and different looks. Some look more Arab and some look more Iberian, with most lying somewhere in between. I don't see other breeds having an exact LOOK.

Just a question to clarify: If you look at Arabs, you see the Polish type, heavier bodied with high knee action, and the Egyptian type, with the "swann" neck, and many other types which need not be listed here. But when you outcross an Arab, do you not usually get what informed observers would recognize as a 1/2 Arab, and "Arab type"? That's a real question, there, not an opinion - I am interested to know what ya'll think.

I ask because Pasos have not, it seems, been crossed into or out of, and with DNA registry we can be sure of that. Yet as was mentioned earlier, you never know what you'll get with a Paso cross either in "look" or gait. That SEEMS to this humble opinionator more like a type than a breed.

However, with the astounding variations on the Paso Fino theme within a subset of "horses with the isochronal gait", is it possible that the PF is unique unto itself within the equine genetic form? Could the Paso be almost another form of equine - like equus jennetus, or something like that? Is there another breed with these issues, do you know? Are there any other breeds influenced by the Jennet? Could the Jennet have been - and I put this loosely, as an amateur, be gentle please - a slightly different equine species?

Above all, don't mind me, I'm certainly not taking sides - please go on with your discussion - this is absolutely fascinating!

[Candice Burger]

I'd love to discuss the concepts I mentioned further, but honestly not in this thread and when there is time to provide the type of thought and evidence to consider it in greater detail.

I'd rather not lose sight the discussion here is pertaining to standards by which the paso should be bred or exhibited. My comments were meant to provoke the thought that if such standards should be implemented to consider the goal behind those standards. I'm suggesting, for now, many standards are developed not in consideration of the horse and its heritage but for the intent to project specific agendas that are less oriented towards the breed as a whole. If the whole of the paso population cannot be embraced under one set of standards it suggests that either the horse is not fitting the modern model of a "breed" or that the sub-groups within the population may need to be reinvestigated (standards broadened) or that to maintain diversity more than one set of standards may be appropriate.

[Terry Wallace]

By all means then start a new thread.... I'm interested to read what you say.... so far I don't agree with much that was said in that the heritage cannot be defined or confined.... and that the Paso Fino cannot be (reasonably) easily identified on sight....especially once they move...

There is way too much ...what is it....? "Mystique" for lack of a better term...that seems to surround a lot of Paso Fino "speak"..

JMO :D

[Soltera]

By all means then start a new thread....

Yes, please!

[CarolU]

Soltera, your post is what I was thinking with 'type.' Sorry Candice if you think I was inferring that type = function. To me a horse's build defines its type, and in Arabs you can see the different types follow fairly closely to country of origin. In QH there are the stockier types and the long, lean racing types. In TBs there are the racing types and the more hunter types.

That is what I referring to with with type. Maraquita is a different 'type' then an El Classico daughter, yet they are both the same breed and perform the same gait in the same division. I used to think that PR types (stockier) looked differently then COL types (more refined), but there many exceptions in both countries. And of course we've mixed the lines in the U.S., and you would think we come up with a unifed looking 'blend'...but they aren't.

So that is why I don't understand what Candice was referring to.

[Candice Burger]

:lol:

Right and be burned at the stake by just about anyone who reads it.

Let's see who have I NOT insulted? I've pretty much have run the gamut from PPRs to Colombian pasos to trail riders, fino trainers, judges, and friends. Can you say "not a team player"? :lol:

I need a respite to draw up enough energy in order to dodge the bullets.

If and when I do, it'll be under the Fuero Concurso forum.

[Terry Wallace]

I think it can be done with no bullets! We will all empty our chambers and comply with BB rules... things have been pretty nice around here lately I was thinking.... ! :D

[Terry Wallace]

Question for Felix or anyone who has attended the "pre-screening" for Mudial competition...

I had read or heard that no horse may compete if it...and I don't know how else to say this....has excessive sway back.

I was wondering HOW they measure that wither drop off.. Do they take a long level and balance it from top of wither to top of lumbar/sacral and then drop a tape down to measure the distance of the sway back?

How is the amount of drop measured? I see a LOT of horses with a LOT of wither drop off..sometimes like four inches of drop off....(way too much drop off)....

I think this is a very good rule...I just don't know how they determine the measurement....can someone please explain? THANKS

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

YEs Terry, that is correct! cannot be shown in CONFEPASO sanctioned shows when its back has any point deeper than 3 3/16 inches.

Now! for mares older than 5 years, are accepted with up to 4 3/4 inches deep point in their backs.

Is measured as followed, a straight line drawn between the withers and the highest point of the lumbar sacral joint, which is the upper point of the croup, and then find the deeper point, and measured it with a ruler.

[Laura S]

I've been reading the rulebook so I know a little bit of whats going on when I go to Mundial. Pg 30 and beyond talks about conformational defects and what isn't allowed. One rule I liked is that the horse has to be quiet while mounting, and this is part of the prescreening process. I can't wait until Mundial. I think I am going to learn alot. I just wish I could speak spanish!! Or at least understand it! :-?

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Laura, is also a good Idea to PRINT the entire Rule book! and the score sheet! to understand the percentage that counts on each exercise asked, and how the evaluation is determine!

[Laura S]

Yes, I do plan on printing it, and bringing it with me to the show. I've just been reading bits and pieces for now.

[Pasogirlz]

The last issue of Showtime ran an article about what to expect at the Mundial. It mentions a lot of the things that are different from what we are used to here. ;-)

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Can you please post the article! for those of us that dont receive the MAg!



LOL

[Terry Wallace]

I paid my subscription to ShowTime months ago and have not gotten one yet.....how long does it take?

[Pasogirlz]

What is the last issue you have Terry? They only come out every other month, so you might only be missing the most recent one. We just released the newest one at Nats, and they were mailed out after we returned. They usually take about 2-3 weeks by regular bulk mail...so they should be starting to hit any day. We have actually had some arrive up to 6 weeks after we mailed them. :shock:

[Terry Wallace]

I have not got one yet....but I will sure watch for it in the mail! I did know that they are six issues a year or so.... I hope my payment was received...maybe I better call? Got a number?

[Carol Nelson]

I haven't gotten my free issue from winning the Photo Contest... :(
I'm hoping it's coming as I have my ad in there this time. :D

[Serendipity]

question I read some of the rules Why does a horse have to have shoes and be micro chipped?

Thats a great expence if its not already done(micro chip) and with the new study that said they can case cancer I don't think I'd have mine done

[Terry Wallace]

Micro chips are cheap! I don't think I have ever spent more than $35.00 for one...

I'd seriously doubt they would cause cancer... just think of all the dogs & horses and other livestock with chips... Next report we here they will say...chips don't cause cancer!

Personally..I've not had any micro chip problems...I understand though that they can become lost in neck fat and become unreadable...

I think its a good idea because once chipped..you've got good reliable positive ID at the wave of a wand... :D

[Serendipity]

They talk about it ob "good morning america" that they had been putting chips in Alstimer patents and they were causing cancer,when pet owner were asked most said that a dog or cat does not live long enough to matter but I would think a horse would?

Just a thought and $35 times however many horses can be a lot fast if your not prepared for it on top of everything else anyway

[Cindy]

I hava a question:
If in 1984-86 when the Mundial was in PR they made exceptions for excessive white since it is a normal characteristic of the PR Paso Fino why do they not allow it now? What has changed, I am sure this particular characteristic has not changed, in fact I see more of it in the American Paso and the Colombian Paso these days, why deny these horses and there owners the opportunity to compete?

DC

Denise, the Mundials that were held in the 80's were not sanctioned by CONFEPASO. CONFEPASO did not exist in the 80's. It was formed in the 90's to be the governing body for international competition. It is the CONFEPASO rules that disallow excessive white. An exception WAS made the last time the Mundial was held in this country to allow pintos to show. They must have decided against it this year. Or perhaps noone asked.