Paso Fino Quiz

[paintedhorizon]

I'm trying to "teach" members on another forum I frequent about paso finos by having a contest.

What are some informative, yet easy to find answers, questions I can ask? I've already done the gaits and the types (columbia, american, etc)

[Soltera]

What breeds of horse were used to create the PF?

Describe a "jaquima". Barbada? Pellon?

What color hat is to be worn in a Fino class? Pleasure class?

Which PF class involves a jumping a simple vertical?

Do PF classes allow both brown and black tack to be used?

Which class(es) allow(s) the horse to be ridden with double reins?

Does the horse have to be shown in a bit in every class?

Are bridle paths mandatory? Are banged tails permitted?

Name three stallions found in most modern PF bloodlines.

State why riders "flex" their horses at the beginning of each ride, and describe the process.

...whew....will that do ya a while...?

:roll:

[paintedhorizon]

Some of those may be too hard for a non paso person, but some are great!

I'm thinking easily googable.

[Soltera]

I'm thinking easily googable.

That's okay, it's late on Friday, we can add the "l" in our minds! :lol:

[CarolU]

Which PF class involves a jumping a simple vertical? :shock:

[paintedhorizon]

Trail class

Which PF class involves a jumping a simple vertical? :shock:

[CarolU]

You jump in Versatility too.

[Candice Burger]

:confused

Excuse me but what is an American type paso and how does that differ from the Dominican Republican horses? Are they not both mixes of Colombian and Puerto Rican types?

[Kerry W]

:confused

Excuse me but what is an American type paso and how does that differ from the Dominican Republican horses? Are they not both mixes of Colombian and Puerto Rican types?

The American (U.S. of) ones eat cheeseburgers, drink Bud and cry every time they hear George Jones' "He Stopped Loving Her Today". Both the Domincan and American ones love baseball...so you can't use that indicator alone. ;-)

One other thing Michele...you might want to spread the word...it is Colombia, not Columbia...there is a huge difference. I know it's just one letter, but to those from there...it's an important one! ;-)

[Carol Nelson]

Definitely got that right, Kerry...you can hear it clearly in the pronunciation. "Co-Lom-bia!" Just as it looks.

[mustangrider]

Unless you are actually from Columbia, SC with a Colombian paso.

[Kerry W]

I didn't know Columbia, SC had a specialty breeder of Columbian Paso Finos.

HEY CANDICE...ADD ANOTHER "TYPE" TO THE LIST!!!! :twisted:


Wonder if they eat grits and whinny with a drawl?

[mustangrider]

I don't know if they do or not. I was just playing on words.

[Kerry W]

I don't know if they do or not. I was just playing on words.

I thought you might have been...I just thought we should make this as confusing as possible. :twisted: :lol:

[mustangrider]

I am outside of Columbia with a spotted paso cross....I guess you could say I am the specialty.

[Kerry W]

I'm sure you are. :lol: Better watch it, Michele will be over there before you know it...she's got a thing for spots AND a thing for Pasos! :shock:

[mustangrider]

Michele, Come on down, come on down the road! My colt is a 4 1/2 month Spanish Jennet, Walkaloosa, Nasha, registered colt. Basically, he is 3/4 paso, 1/4 appy. What a looker he is now. Getting more white daily.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I am staying out of this one! but Candice, I did asked myself the same question and still wondering :confused


Saludos!

[Candice Burger]

I think the question has been answered Felix. No one knows.

[paintedhorizon]

I spelled it wrong here, but did spell it right there.

Colombian Paso Fino
Puerto Rican Paso Fino
Peruvian Paso Fino
American Paso Fino

Mustang, I used to live in Lexington and worked in Columbia. Have you ever been to Windsor, SC at Stella's place?

[mustangrider]

I have driven by her place. Just ain't stopped in. Always too busy. I just got into this gaited thing. So I am still learning. I have learned a great deal here. So thank you to everyone.

[paintedhorizon]

You should stop by some time! You'd be amazed at her horses!

[mustangrider]

That is what scares me! :D To fall in love with another Paso.

[Candice Burger]

I didn't know Columbia, SC had a specialty breeder of Columbian Paso Finos.

HEY CANDICE...ADD ANOTHER "TYPE" TO THE LIST!!!! :twisted:


Wonder if they eat grits and whinny with a drawl?

:roll: Ain't that the truth!

Well, when someone can come up with what an American paso fino is, let the rest of us know will you?

[Fuego]

Just a stab in the dark, but maybe an American Paso Fino is a horse that is frequently discussed right here on Americanpasofinos.com........

Now I have a question; why would intelligent people come to a site named AMERICANPASOFINOS if they don't think such a thing exsists?

[Candice Burger]

OK, I'll bite...so what is the horse frequently discussed here on APF?

I'm still not enlightened.

Now I have a question; why would intelligent people come to a site named AMERICANPASOFINOS if they don't think such a thing exsists?

I dunno. Are you saying it does exist? Then what is it?

[Terry Wallace]

Wellll...at my house it is a mix of Colombiano, Puerto Rican, and Cuban bloodlines from way back.... sort of like many American people who are a mix of blood... I am too...Dutch, German and French.... I am an "American".... and my Paso Finos are "American" bred, born & raised....

I think it is fair to say most American Paso Finos ARE mixes.... just like American people are.... is that so hard to fathom? :D

Rather like American Andalusians....or American Quarter Horses...you know..the quarter horses with English Thoroughbred blood in them! The same ones who trace to Arabians.... like the Godolphin Arabian or the Byerly Turk.....

[paintedhorizon]

See here

http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=200877#200877

[Soltera]

Mustangrider..

1) do you ride mustangs? :D

2) what's a Nasha?

3) do you have pictures of your horses, please? pretty please?

4) WELCOME TO THE BOARD!!!

[Fuego]

Candice, you are VERY enlightened. You're just being ...... Candice. :lol:

[Candice Burger]

:lol: True Fuego...

OK then, I'll repeat...what's the difference between the blend of Puerto Rican and Colombian horses in Dominican Republic, USA, and Puerto Rico?

:confused

Is a horse of one type or another when imported then exported. What type are the offspring? There are "sin par" and "del Caribe" and "que tal" horses in Puerto Rico. Joyero III has offspring in at least 3 countries. Amadeus, Anfitrion, Kofresi, Kopeki....

http://pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=115755

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

OPEN!!!!!!!

[mustangrider]

1. Yes I ride them.

2. NASHA is northa american singlefooting horse association.

3. pics...I am trying to figure this webthing out...ain't there yet...will do so soon.

4. Thank you for the warm welcome.

[Abejita]

as far as the Peruvian ..A few issues back Equus did an article on gaited horses..and I believe the Peruvians are now just calling themselves (or their horses) The Peruvian Horse ,wanting to get away from Peruvian Paso Fino...

[ErinC]

Well, when someone can come up with what an American paso fino is, let the rest of us know will you?

I always thought an American Paso Fino was a mix, yes,
but that the mixing goes back a few lines .
because it is 5/6 lines back-
so then you can not really trace it to Colombia or PR lines, yes those lines are in there but so far back they are pretty much removed....

no? :new confused
I was told my horses is an American Paso Fino, by someone that looked at the lines. can not remember who.

but it sounded right.

:new confused

[paintedhorizon]

Erin, it's an actual breed too. Go look at the topic I posted.

[Abejita]

all I can add to the "american slant"
some of the quotes posted on the other thread..well one anyway..was taken from early promo material of the PFOBA/ PFHA.many of the promo info that has been stored here for years..old magazines, newspapers etc use that term American Paso Fino...It was used basically as a promotional blurb..it was described as a blend of bloodlines from the different countries of origin stated already..but I think also the idea was to help show that (many) breeders at the time were aiming to make this horse into something other than a 'show' horse only..they knew the american buying public wanted horses that could be 'used' and ridden by everyone..so even if they were breeding ,say PPR stock...they still used the "American Paso fino' idea. I wasnt involved in the beginning..too young to know what the climate was as far as how accepting we as Americans were of 'outside' influences..could it also have been said so that people wouldnt feel they were "buying foreign??"

[Candice Burger]

precisely

I was looking yesterday, for my own education, about the "types" of Arabian horses. There's Polish, Egyptian, Crabbet, Russian, Spanish, and "Domestic"--the USA variety. Interestingly the Crabbet Arabian is one of the oldest "strains" and was used by the Spanish, Polish and Russian groups along with direct imports from Bedouin areas. When the Crabbet Stud disbanded its horses in the early 1970's that was the end of era. The Crabbet stud traces directly back to the Middle East and exchanged horses frequently with another stud farm located in Egypt (I think) as well with other Middle Eastern breeders. Anyway, horses from the Crabbet stud had some distinctive characteristics, while still directly genetically linked to the Middle East.

Americans have not chosen any phenotypical characteristics to be considered a different strain, type or breed from the original imports. There was and is no selection criteria for what is an "American" paso fino. The blends here are no different than the blends in Puerto Rico or Domincan Republic or elsewhere. PFHA chose the "horse of the millenium" in the USA not to be a mixed horse but a pure Colombian import.

We are in a different age of in the breed's development. While Colombia, Puerto Rico and others had vast geographical space to overcome for centuries and even a few decades ago, we don't. There was an era where the separate countries had an opportunity or maybe a disadvantage where groups were isolated or few exchanges made. Priorities for selecting breeding stock, importing breeding stock were slightly different. Now the saying goes in PR not to trust the "purity" of the stock after 1970/72 because that was when Colombian pasos began to be imported into Puerto Rico with greater frequency. I suspect there are some instances in Colombia as well.

The pedigree I posted is 3/4 Colombian and 1/4 Puerto Rican. The Puerto Rican mare was bred in Puerto Rico to an imported Colombian stallion. The resultant cross was exported to Domincan Republic and bred to an imported Colombian stallion there. The pedigree is from a horse registered in the USA.

It was about 2 years ago I asked myself the question again about if the Colombian and Puerto Rican horses were really different breeds, types or strains of the same breed. This time rather than ask if I could describe the differences, I asked just how different these traits were and the source(s) of the differences specifically.

Also, if a breeder imports a bunch of PPR horses, selects for a particular phenotype different from what is selected in PR, is the resultant population still PPR or a different strain? If the Crabbet Arabian is a different strain using this method, how long did it take to accomplish this? Or is it really a man-made convenience to say "Crabbet" to mean "this Arabian came from an English stud farm"?

EDIT: Let me ask it a different way. Say I have an "American" paso fino. What horses should I breed to it to keep the American paso fino strain pure? Can anyone tell me what horses I should look for and would be appropriate to maintain the purity of the American paso fino? When we say "Colombian" or "Puerto Rican" we invoke two basic assumptions: the bloodlines originate from that country and the horse displays the phenotypical traits distinquishable and unique to the country of origin.

[Terry Wallace]

EDIT: Let me ask it a different way. Say I have an "American" paso fino. What horses should I breed to it to keep the American paso fino strain pure?

C'mon Candice...you can "wax" all you want to about breeds and types...but NONE are "Pure" in the "pureset sense of the words"...

ALL came from somewhere else and continue to develop according to whatever types they are bred to...

YES..you can assume if the horse comes from PR or Colombia they will look or be a certain way...you can assume it...but it will NOT prove 100% accurate....that is because they all came from something else before they arrived at what they are today...

I think you are looking for a "custom fit" in an "off the rack " world... and it is likely not going to happen..... JMO

[Candice Burger]

:lol: I'm not waxing a thing. You have hit the nail on the head. Actually there is some misunderstianding about what I was saying by suggesting I am defending the "pure" argument.

We have "breeds" because we chose certain phenotypes that we liked and then chose horses within a population that gave us that phenotype with some degree of consistency.

A little plug here. A fantastic little book I found written by Rhys Llewellyn, "Breeding to Race", touches on the genetic foundation of breeds discussing both hybrid vigor and inbreeding. You can find it at Amazon.com and Abebooks.com

How breeds evolved and what keeps them distinguishable has greatly interested me for some time. There ARE differences between a sabino Arabian, sabino Clydesdale, and a sabino Puerto Rican Paso Fino, which suggests some genes have been discarded, kept, "purified" into homozygous expressions to create the expression we are looking for. All of our discussions are really about how to keep the population secure so that we continue the phenotype that attracted us to begin with.

We use terms of convenience: breed, type, strain but what we are really saying is we want minimal risk and high certainity of an outcome when we breed our horses. To maintain a high level of certainity means we dedicate a considerable amount of energy to protecting the population gene pool thus using terms such as: mixing, pure, prepotent, etc.

I understand Crabbet Arabians were known for sound leg confo and tallness as compared to their genetic relatives in the Middle East. If the only way to maintain these traits was to keep the population intact, then it makes sense to distinguish it in some way and to maintain a "pure" strain of Crabbet horses.

It also means a high level of genetic concentration to maintain the phenotype because as we all know, the phenotype is a combination or several combinations of genes and the chances of getting the right combo depends on 32 pairs of chromosomes. We hope, if we are breeding for pasos and not draft horses, that we have selected horses that either do not carry draft type genes or the genes are recessive to the paso phenotype. So we have to continually reinforce our gene pool to get the cream of the crop for phenotype. We will also get some phenotypes that are less desirable too, but perhaps, no less important. What may distinguish a draft horse from a paso could be allot or a little as far as genes are concerned. As far as appearances, we assume a great deal of difference, but we have no evidence until we see the responses by crossing draft and paso and then crossing again to see the second or third or fourth generation.

Llewllyn discusses an experiment in Great Britain to reestablish a wild type of cow no longer found. They took the breeds founded from the original cow, but no longer having all the distinctive characteristics, and mixed them up. He goes into greater detail but the outcome was a cow so similar to the wild cow type that it bred "true to type". Again, suggesting that we are not so dissimilar as we may think when talking about "purity".

The whole rant was about being AWARE of what is meant when someone says there is such a thing as an American paso fino. Call "mixes" whatever you want but KNOW the same exists elsewhere in the world and KNOW that if you call a mix in the USA, WHY you call it an "American" paso fino. I'd appreciate it if the time was taken to explain HOW an American mix is different from a mix residing in another country.

[Terry Wallace]

I'd appreciate it if the time was taken to explain HOW an American mix is different from a mix residing in another country.

Its only different in that it ocurred in America! You could say the same thing about many dog and cat breeds....

Thats kind of like asking what makes an "American" human.... when the same mixes of blood could be in Mexico, Canada, Japan..wherever...

Once they come here..they are accepted as "American"...I don't get this whole premise about horses being totally something else somewhere else... its really nothing more than a recombination of available DNA...

The whole "American" theme... is to do it here, make those decisions and carry them out here....

Personally...I don't think it is as DEEP a subject as some would have you believe....

One thing for sure....nothing stays the same.....everything changes.
Just look at all the cattle breeds for example...take the hereford cow..originally came here from England...now been here what...(I'm just going to say 100 years as I really don't know...but plenty LONG enough!).
Ask any American rancher of Hereford cattle and see what answer you get if you ask ...where did this "strain" of cow come from....?

Look at all the changes that QH have undergone....you see it MORE in that breed because there are so many more of them...horses with HERDA, horses with HYPP.... I could go on & on... but to what end?

"Mother Nature" will take that upper hand and show us possibly where we go wrong in breeding....by dishing out such things as hip displasia, genetic sway backs, all kinds of "mouth" irregularities...over bite, under bite...etc, etc...

This is why (IMO) we really probably won't ever see a perfect horse, a perfect dog...because people breed what they want to breed..some are very concerned with breeding only "the best" but way more breed "whatever they got"...be it a sow mouthed mare, a chryptorchid stud, ..you name it..people DO it.

To me..IMO...to protect the integrity of ANY breed... it needs to be "overseen" (grading boards, tests for true breeding stock)... but that doesn't happen in many cases either!

SOOooooooo what is to be done to protect "purity"...good luck on that! :D

Horses live too long, take too long to produce offspring, and cost way too much money to be subjected to "purity breeding" like you might do with lab rats for example....

AND..thats not even touching on horses who get bred because the owner has "pretty horsie syndrome" and would not know a fault IF IT KICKED THEM!

O.K..... my ramble stops here for now!

[Terry Wallace]

OH...and WHITE MARKINGS!!! Impure! (yeah....right!)

Nope...not gonna go there at this juncture! :D

[paintedhorizon]

Well thanks for the quiz ideas guys. hahaha :lol:

As far as the "american" thing, I have no idea. I was just going on what I had learned. Sorry to start such a big hassle.

[Terry Wallace]

Its NOT a hassle at all... just a discussion...its good to hear everyones ideas and thoughts! :D

[Jane Hurl]

I know I'm going to get slapped for this ...

but the rest of the world rolls their eyes when you Americans go claiming stuff to be American. You'll not find anyone being so presumptuous as to say they're breeding "Canadian Paso Finos", "English Paso Finos" or "Australian Paso Finos". We accept that we didn't invent the breed.

If you were to say, "This is an American bred horse. It's a Paso Fino", I'd be happy. To hear "We breed American Paso Finos" is so arrogant it sets my teeth on edge.

I accept that the USA is THE hottest of hot beds for the promotion of the Paso Fino breed, but criminy, people! You didn't invent it! Give the Latin Americans their due!

[Terry Wallace]

Jane...NOBODY is saying Americans INVENTED Paso Finos...they just put their own slant on things...by breeding what they want to breed...crossing what bloodlines they want...crossing what types they want.
Nope..no slap from me....!
:D

[Jane Hurl]

Slant, shmant, Terry! If you call them "American Paso Finos" it says it is an American breed, which it ain't.

I give you the "American Quarter Horse". It was invented there. We raise American Quarter Horses up here ... but you can't have "American Paso Finos"! You didn't invent them, dammit! *stalks off with steam blowing out her ears*

[Carol Nelson]

Well, Jane, if ya think most Americans are arrogant...which we are... ya oughta see Texans!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

On my colt, Devante's, webpage, http://www.geocities.com/lazyidh/devante1.html
I refer to him as the epitome of the American Paso Fino because #1) he is a blend of the Colombian and the Puerto Rican bloodlines like so many of the Paso Finos in the country are....and #2) he is what I am hearing from the clients that come to my farm (and from so many people that I talk to day to day, and from people that frequent this board)...he is what they want in their Paso Fino. He is taller, he has longer legs, he has a shorter back, thinner neck...unlike his daddy, Rojo Tejas, who is pretty much what the traditional Paso looks like with the longer back, thicker neck and shorter legs in proportion to the body. (Now don't go jumping on me about that statement, y'all, as he has 630 some show points earned in Bella Forma and a whole box of ribbons to prove it...so a few Paso Fino judges thought so too. ;-) )
Is the American Paso Fino a breed, nah, it's just a description of what the American's have come to want from their Paso Fino...a true individual distinctive melting pot of characteristics...kinda like this country we live in. :smile:

[Terry Wallace]

Well said Carol N!!!! You and me are "on the same page" on this....
:D

My Canadian buddy Jane just has a bee in her bonnet! :D
Yep...the "American Quarter Horse" was indeed developed here...but just where do you think the BLOOD came from Jane? How did that breed "get invented"? OMG...me thinks there could be Spanish blood in the AQH !!!

Something tells me long ago...a few horses offloaded from a ship.....
Come to think of it... there were NO horses "native" to north America....
HHHmmm..best rename them all to be "Conquistador breed" :D

(just a bit of humor for you north of the border folks!)
Where did the Canadian Horse REALLY come from? .... :?:

[Candice Burger]

I apologize PH.

What I wanted to bring out was how we are teaching each other about the breed. I'm perfectly ok with the term "American paso fino" as long as it's explained what that means, which is nothing but a term of convenience. I hope we educate with some openness, which allows and encourages further exploration. We should fully expect for someone to eventually ask us why we use the terms we do, the history behind it and certainly expect others to have developed their own opinion based on independent research.

We need to understand the terms we teach.

As far as the American paso fino is concerned, I hope those who are cavalier with the phrase begin thinking about what that means in the long term.

[Jane Hurl]

I can't remember what the number is, but to create a new breed of dog you have to be able to reproduce its characteristics for X number of generations. The same goes for a breed of horse, does it not? I mean, if that were not the case, there would not be ANY breeds other than Arab and ... well ... come to think of it ... Arab.

There is (well, make that WAS) a distinctive look to the American Quarter Horse (until some moron decided to create a "running Quarter Horse" or whatever you call it). Because it came, originally, from a combination of other breeds does not take away from the fairness in designating it the American Quarter Horse. You guys developed the breed. That ain't what you got here when you speak of an American Paso Fino. Carol Nelson wants one thing. CarolU wants another. Terry breeds for this. So and So breeds for that ... and then you have the audacity to take all credit away from the Colombians, the Puerto Ricans, the Cubans, etc, and call it the American Paso Fino! *eyes rolling*

And our Canadian came from some horses imported from France ... but then France owned us at one point, so we can still claim the Canadian. But just for argument's sake ... if you had a hot bed of Canadians in the US of A, would you call them American Canadians? (I'd have to come down there and shoot you!)

And then it occurs to me that Lori might be wondering where her "American Paso Finos dot com" comes into my thinking. It's okay, Lori. You're telling the world that this is an American SITE for Paso Fino horses. That's okay in my world.

[Carol Nelson]

I REPEAT.....

Is the American Paso Fino a breed, nah, it's just a description of what the American's have come to want from their Paso Fino...a true individual distinctive melting pot of characteristics...kinda like this country we live in.


if I were disregarding the Colombians and the Puerto Ricans, and the Cubans, and the San Salvadorans which by the way also have Paso Finos....would I have a Puerto Rican trainer????

He seems to like the concept of a New American Paso Fino....to coincide with his Pure Puerto Rican Paso Finos....each different, but each appreciated. We will have both! :smile:

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I am still out of this one! but! have to say! this thread is very EDUCATIVE! thank you all! is imazing how much Jane and I have in commom!!!


Still out of this one! but on thing Carol, please elaborate more on the Salvadorian Paso Fino Bloodlines! :shock: maybe was a LOST RELATIVE of Columbus, left behind?, (humor).

Saludos!


Edit: Correction from COLO-COLU

[Carol Nelson]

Ha....actually Felix, the first horse I ever sold here in Texas was to a young man from Santo Domingo, who by the way came to my barbeque last Saturday and is still a good friend and client. :smile:
His father trained Paso Finos in their home country but they were poor and could not afford their own. Now he owns one of mine. ;-)
But I think if our Paso Fino breed is going to survive in this country we need to have something for EVERYONE...and that is what I am trying to do here. Provide every type of Paso Fino one can want...brios, trail, Pinto, Palomino, Pure Puerto Rican....you name it. ;-)

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Ha....actually Felix, the first horse I ever sold here in Texas was to a young man from Santo Domingo, who by the way came to my barbeque last Saturday and is still a good friend and client. :smile:
His father trained Paso Finos in their home country but they were poor and could not afford their own. Now he owns one of mine. ;-)
But I think if our Paso Fino breed is going to survive in this country we need to have something for EVERYONE...and that is what I am trying to do here. Provide every type of Paso Fino one can want...brios, trail, Pinto, Palomino, Pure Puerto Rican....you name it. ;-)


Well! we took 15 Paso Fino horses to Costa Rica sometime ago! when we resided in that country, also took Paso Finos to Nicaragua!, I was just wondering the Bloodlines of the ones in El Salvador! ... Thanks

By the way! Salvador, Costa Rica and Nicaragua have great Criollo horses and EXTRAORDINARY ANDALUSIANS.


Saludos!

[Jane Hurl]

Felix! You and I agree AGAIN? :shock: That's TWICE! (This really IS getting ridiculous! *grin*)

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

LOL

[Carol Nelson]

I have no idea of the bloodlines of the horses that his father trained in Santo Domingo. All I know is his father who is now in his 80's LOVES the little Paso Fino he bought from me. :smile:

As do the kids... ;-)

[Cindy]

There is (well, make that WAS) a distinctive look to the American Quarter Horse (until some moron decided to create a "running Quarter Horse" or whatever you call it).

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
Huh? Jane, do you have any idea where the name "Quarter Horse" came from? I am going to assume from that statement that you do not. The breed of horse was named "Quarter Horse" because they were short distance runners as opposed to Thoroughbreds who were long distance runners. The specialty of the "Quarter Horse" and what it was originally bred for was the quarter mile race. So were it not for the "moron" that created a "running Quarter Horse" or whatever you call it, there would not be a breed at all. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

The breed Quater Horse in Spanish is Cuarto Milla! meaning QUARTER MILE!.




Saludos!

[Fuego]

Why is the term American Paso Fino confusing to people but not the terms Colombian or Peurto Rican Paso Fino?

Maybe we should define what a Colombian and Puerto Rican Paso Fino is.
Puerto Ricans have been crossing COL/PR PFs and the same with Colombia. In which case the same arguements being used to say there is no such thing as an American PF could be used to say there is no such thing as a Puerto Rican Paso Fino or a Colombian Paso Fino.
Yet there PURE PUERTO RICAN is often used to describe certain Paso Finos. I don't see anyone squawking about that.......

Look at Labrador Retrievers. The American and European versions of the SAME breed are very distinguishable from each other, yet it is the same breed with the same origins. Just bred for different subtlties on opposite sides of the big pond( which are easy to see).

Candice and Felix, if YOU don't like the term American Paso Fino, then DON'T USE THE TERM!!!!!. Just quit being a PITA for the people that do. There's no point to it!!!

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

MITCH! CHILL!!!!!! I am out of this race! advise you stop being a PITA!

[paintedhorizon]

Can't we all just gait along? hehe

[Fuego]

If you didn't want to be involved in this thread Felix, then you shouldn't have posted on this thread.

Don't want none...... don't START none!!!!!!!!!

Stirring the pot and then claiming innocence only works with certain people on this BB.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

If you didn't want to be involved in this thread Felix, then you shouldn't have posted on this thread.

Don't want none...... don't START none!!!!!!!!!

Stirring the pot and then claiming innocence only works with certain people on this BB.

I can see what your doing!!!! CHILL!!! CHILL CHILL! take a hike! KEEP BREEDING WHAT EVER MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER! WHO CARES! i sure dont!

[Candice Burger]

Mitch I don't know what your problem is.

First I'd like for you to take the time to read my posts. If you don't have the time, but want to involve me into whatever game you play, I'd like to know what the rules are. So, I can either call you or you call me and let's get the some things straight before posting and linking me to your fabricated accusations. I don't appreciate it and frankly am tired of it. If you want to continue your pointed attacks in public then prepare for public consequences. Unlike many here, I don't have the civility to care if Barbara or Lori pull my posts, lock them up or kick me out. So if you want a player count me in.

Second, I am formally requesting that you please reference my specific comments that said I don't like the term "American paso finos". As a matter of fact, in case you don't want to bother I commented that I really don't care and requested anyone using the term to please clarify what is meant by the use of such term. In a previous post I explained what the terms "Colombian paso" and "Puerto Rican Paso Fino" meant.

Third, your reactionary comments suggest disrespect to the breed. So if you want a counter reaction here it is. I think your words are ignorant meaning you lack any in-depth understanding of the force of your comment and disrespectful, meaning in spite of your ignorance you don't appear to care one way or the other.

I DON'T use the term because I see no meaning behind it. The term I use is "PASO FINOS" and preface that with either Colombian or Puerto Rican to clarify a subset of horses I am specifically referring to and to educate those who are interested about why I have focused on such subsets.

Last, what is your point? To discuss what an American paso fino is or to just have some fun using it as a guise to publically attack people?

You know Mitch, it's these types of comments that prevent me from furthering the discussion about what an "American paso fino" could be and how I think such activities to provide one benefits ALL concerned not just those in the USA. As it stands, when I read such inflammatory posts, I resign myself to the fact that really no one gives a rip and wants to continue some idiotic, peacock preening, dance of words.

I WILL NOT quit being a pain in the a-ss just because I think the record should be open, honest, and as truthful as possible. Maybe you don't think it's important to discuss different views, ideas, and opinions, but I do. I want to hear why people use terminology and what's important to them and even HELP them achieve their goals whether I agree or like it. See, I think the paso fino is perfectly capable of providing those goals without feeling threatened. However, it serves no purpose to think those goals have been achieved simply because a term to describe the goal is actively used.

I hope my post stays up just long enough for people to read it before Lori or Barb pulls the plug again. Thanks!

[Jane Hurl]

I know, Cindy. But that was the ORIGINAL Quarter Horse ... "fastest horse on earth for a quarter of a mile". I LOVE that horse. It is short (usually in the 14.2 range) with very short canons (which makes it able to cut so well) and BIG haunches (that gave it such a quick start, which is why it could out run race horses). But then some moron wanted it faster and (I think) over a longer track so bred in Thoroughbred and suddenly the wonderful little American Quarter Horse (unless it is bred to cut [ie the Poco lines, etc]) doesn't look like a Quarter Horse at all.

[Fuego]

Gonna have to do better then that Candice....

This thread was started asking for help in creating an educational Paso Fino quiz.

You offered NOTHING to the thread other then to repeatetedly post and repost and repost about the term "American Paso Fino". You had NO point other then to prove that YOU don't approve of the term and therefore it shouldn't be used or even exsisit because YOU deemed it so. Get over yourself.

Does this mean if you can't win this arguement either you'll go back through the thread and delete all your posts just like you did on a another thread not long ago?

[Jane Hurl]

And, Mitch ... I don't understand your point here:

Look at Labrador Retrievers. The American and European versions of the SAME breed are very distinguishable from each other, yet it is the same breed with the same origins. Just bred for different subtlties on opposite sides of the big pond( which are easy to see).

Are they not CALLED Labrador Retrievers? The original (hunting) breed came from Labrador (Canada) and being as it is a lovely, highly respected dog, as a matter of national pride, I'd like the world to KEEP calling it a "Labrador" retriever.

THAT (the italics) is one of the reasons why I object to the term "American Paso Fino" (other than for the name of Lori's web site *lol*).

[Fuego]

Yes, Jane, they are all Labs. However, when I originally noticed the difference between the Labs, it was explained to me ( by various Lab breeders ) that English Labs tend to be shorter stockier dogs with shorter thicker tails then their American counterparts. Different does not mean 'less'. Both are labs.
Saying a lab happens to be an English Lab or an American Lab in no way diminishes the breed or Canada for their great contribution to the dog world ( and yes, I DO think labs are a great breed of dog and realize it is of Canadian origin).
English Lab or American Lab is nothing more then a distinguation within the Labrador breed. Same as American Paso Fino is nothing more then a subtle distinguation within the Paso Fino horses.

Yes, they are all Labrador Retrievers. But obviously, Europenean breeders focused on a different type of the breed then Americans did. Thus you can see a physical difference between two, even though they are still the same breed. No one CHANGED or ALTERED the breed, they just bred the traits in exsistence according to their own desires or needs.

American Paso Finos are a blend of many Paso Finos, including but not exclusivly the Puerto Rico and Colombian Paso Finos. The American Paso Fino is still very much a Paso Fino, just being bred by Americans for American tastes. Americans aren't trying to claim they invented the breed or are even improving the breed.
Americans are blending and breeding Paso Finos the very same way that Colombia and Puerto Rico are doing, according to their needs, tastes and desires.
So if the Colombians do so and can call their horses Colombian Paso Finos and Puerto Rico can breed their Paso Finos according to their whims and call them PR PFs., why is it so wrong that American Paso Fino breeders that are breeding according to American needs, tastes and desires ( without changing or altering the Paso Fino horse from what it is) to call them American Paso Finos?

I may not be correct on this point, so please someone correct me if wrong.
Wasn't it Puerto Rico that came up with the "Paso Fino" and the Colombians started calling their horses Paso Finos AFTER Americans started importing from Colombia?
If so, a Colombian Paso Fino would be just as inaccurate as an American Paso Fino wouldn't it?

[CarolU]

Interesting what goes on when you can't log on to the site for a few days. Until I ran into this thread again, I thought it had died of boredom.

Okay...so, we ALL started with the same genetic material, the horses that were brought over by the Conquistadors. They were bred in the Caribbean for about 500 years, mostly as a service and transportation animal. As the combustion engine began taking over a lot of these duties, horses became less and less required as work animals, and people started breeding them for enjoyment and competition.

So just say that as of 1900 they were all pretty much the same bloodlines. So then humans, as humans are want to do, started specializing in certain lines that took their interests. Look at Colombia, you have cattle working lines, Paso Fino lines, Trochadors, Trote y Galope, Trocha y Galope and criollos. Right? In Puerto Rico you have Paso Finos, Andadura, Pacers, and criollos. Right? There are probably even others.

So what is the problem with an "American Paso Fino" that specializes in something else? I would define it as "The world's smoothest Pleasure Horse" to quote Dave Jones. It is characterized by range-of-gait and smoothness, and is whatever blend of whatever original lines it took to make it smooth in the first place, and has a FUTURE of breeding for the smoothest pleasure horse. this is a different goal then "the best gait" because the gait HAS to be smooth and it HAS to have range. This makes the breeding goals different then those of strictly Paso Fino, be they from Puerto Rico or Colombia, because MOST Americans only care about a smooth ride.

[paintedhorizon]

:not worthy :not worthy :not worthy :not worthy

So what is the problem with an "American Paso Fino" that specializes in something else? I would define it as "The world's smoothest Pleasure Horse" to quote Dave Jones. It is characterized by range-of-gait and smoothness, and is whatever blend of whatever original lines it took to make it smooth in the first place, and has a FUTURE of breeding for the smoothest pleasure horse. this is a different goal then "the best gait" because the gait HAS to be smooth and it HAS to have range. This makes the breeding goals different then those of strictly Paso Fino, be they from Puerto Rico or Colombia, because MOST Americans only care about a smooth ride.

[Cindy]

I know, Cindy. But that was the ORIGINAL Quarter Horse ... "fastest horse on earth for a quarter of a mile". I LOVE that horse. It is short (usually in the 14.2 range) with very short canons (which makes it able to cut so well) and BIG haunches (that gave it such a quick start, which is why it could out run race horses). But then some moron wanted it faster and (I think) over a longer track so bred in Thoroughbred and suddenly the wonderful little American Quarter Horse (unless it is bred to cut [ie the Poco lines, etc]) doesn't look like a Quarter Horse at all.


The Quarter horse is still the fastest horse on earth for a quarter mile and are still raced at a quarter mile. The longest race for the Quarter Horse is 870 yards. They do not race the distance that a Thoroughbred races in any race. Quarter Horses have always had Thoroughbred in them. Quarter Horse race horses still have the "big haunches" and have a distictly different look than a thoroughbred. Those who are breeding the Quarter Horse for racing are breeding the horse for what the breed was founded on and they are faster than ever. Those who are breeding for cutting would be the ones who have changed the breed for a different sport. Otherwise the breed would be called the Cutting Horse, not the Quarter Horse.

[Fuego]

Could be wrong , but I believe the Quarter Horses were named for their speed at a Quarter mile.
However I believe the Quarter Horse has it's original foundation in working ranch horses.

It was when the cowboys would meet up and have competitions to prove who had the best horse ( fastest, strongest, quickest....) that their speed was recognized. It is during these informal races of working cowhorses that the QH was identified for it's unbeatable speed at 1/4 of a mile.
But the original QH still comes from working stock horses and the racing QH was developed from the original cowhorses. Not the other way around. Despite the fact that they were named for their speed at 1/4 mile,
"working disciplines"( such as cutting) would still have as much if not more of a legitemate claim to the breed

[Cindy]

Never said they didn't. All breeds of horses had their beginings as working horses. That is what horses were used for. But until and unless someone comes up with a name and starts a registry for a purpose, they are all just working horses. The breed was originally named, the registry started, records kept for the purpose of racing, not ranching. Hence the name.

[Fuego]

Agreed, a name was given, a registry was started. And the name and registry may have been created for the purpose of racing, but the horses themselves were not created. They already existed. And those were very fast working ranch horses ( that were used for a whole lot more then ONLY racing). Adding a name or creating a registry doesn't change the fact that the original QHs ( by name and registry) were in fact working ranch horses.

[Terry Wallace]

Hehehehe...just peeking in for a moment... :D

My how we get soooooooo hung up on a "name" :D

Please......."Do go ON"...... :D

[Candice Burger]

No, hung up on a term when used out of contextual meaning. ;-) Otherwise, the content in which the term is used is also meaningless.

Here's a really nice LONG article about Joe Hancock, the discussion solely based on a phrase found in the first American Quarter Horse stud book.

http://hancockhorses.com/joehancock.html

So you see, Terry, Mitch, CarolN and others, words have meaning and can misconstrue history in pontentially harmful and irreparable way.

Oh, and since ya'll don't seem to care about purity or bloodlines or type you can skip the last quarter of the article that goes into great detail about one of AQHA's great sires, which would, if you so chose to engage, ratify what I've been saying for the past few years. :roll:

[Rafael Arbelo]

This is reality; the term American Paso Fino means nothing when is used to describe a horse. You can’t use a term to describe a breed that does not exist … In no way I am trying to be disrespectful with what I’m saying, but those are the facts. It took Puerto Rico 500 years to create a different breed that was called Paso Fino. It took Colombia just about the same time to create their Trocha breed … It takes a lot of time to create a distinct and separate breed … So if you cross a Colombian Trocha horse with a Puerto Rican Paso Fino you have a 50-50 cross of two breeds … In my opinion you have created a hybrid horse … and that’s my opinion - !!

[Carol Nelson]

For the last time I did not intend to ever suggest that the term American Paso Fino is a breed...it is a simple description of what Americans are looking for in a Paso Fino. When my trainer asks me if my horses are Colombian bred or Puerto Rican bred, I tell him...Colombian or Puerto Rican.. or both, which most of them are. I do not tell him they are American Paso Finos. Sigh...
Lori must've felt there was some value to the descriptive term else she wouldn't have named her site www.AmericanPasoFinos.com.
And I LOVE that title by the way!! I sure hope she does not feel the need to change the title of her website now. ;-)

[Jane Hurl]

Oooooh, no you don't, Carol N. You can't get away with that, my dear -- because many Americans are breeding for different things so there is no generic "type" that can be called American!

(Can I be in love with Rafael Arbelo? Just a little?)

[CarolU]

I am going to weigh in with Terry (big surprise!!!). The American Quarter Horse indeed got its name for its sprinting ability. This short distance speed was important for roping and cutting, which is why the breed took off and became so popular.

But to get MORE speed, a LOT of TB has been bred into the breed, so that racing QH's look and share the same heritage as a lot of racing TBs. I wonder what the times are now for 'sprinting' TBs.

Now, if you turn and look at roping and cutting, the two ranch chores that required a sprint, and are now sports, you will see a very different body type and linage then the racing QH's.

Sooooo, are racing QH's really just sprinting TB's?????

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Oooooh, no you don't, Carol N. You can't get away with that, my dear -- because many Americans are breeding for different things so there is no generic "type" that can be called American!

(Can I be in love with Rafael Arbelo? Just a little?)

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I am getting jealous!!!!!!!

[CarolU]

OK Rafael, I'll bite.

When Paso Finos were first imported into North America, it was for their smooth gait. This was what,....40-50 years ago? The goal was to 'create' "The world's smoothest pleasure horse." To do this, mostly Colombian stallions were brought in and crossed with Puerto Rican mares. And, other then one stallion (Mar de Plata) all the stallions were of the Colombian stock-type horse, and the PR mares were also stocky and substantial.

These breedings are the base of the majority of American Paso Finos. They may have newer, more "popular" Colombian or PR lines added in over more recent years, but most go back to these original horses....where the intent was to create a new breed in North America. That is WHY they imported from both countries and why they used the word "create."

In the late 1980's Colombia seemed to step forward and eventually take the North American "show market" with speed of footfall and more brio. And while this is very popular with some, many Americans still want what the original importers were trying to 'create,' a smooth pleasure horse.

Now...we can argue all day about what is most important in the countries of origin of the breed, but what matters in the U.S. is a SMOOTH PLEASURE HORSE.

I, for one, am grateful there remain many breeders who hold true to the original purpose of bringing these horses to North America, who breed a smooth, correct conformation, range of gait, level-headed pleasure horse. And I DO see this as a very different horse then the current breeding goals of either Colombia or Puerto Rico.

To put it visually, you'll still be looking and listening to a Fino board for the fastest and most precise gait, while the American Paso Fino will be carrying the American family over the hill and through the woods in smooth and sane comfort.

[Cindy]

Candice, great article. Read the whole thing. Loved it.

Mitch, you seem to be missing the point that I was trying to make and we are not really even discussing the same issue so I will abandon that particlular discussion.

CarolU, did you read the article that Candice posted. It is very informative and historically accurate and answers the question that you posed. It also shows photos of QHs from the late 1800s/early 1900s that look a lot more like the racing Quarters of today than they do the cutting Quarters of today.

[CarolU]

Actually, I think the article makes my point. I certainly see the stock horse in Joe Hancock in all those photos. The only horse that resembles a TB is John Wilkins, Joe Hancock's sire.

From a mismash of lines, that only started becoming a solid breed in the early 1900's, a new breed was formed. I

s that not also true of Paso Finos in their native lands? There is a reason our pedigrees only go back 30-40 years. There were no registries and no established breeds in any of the countries before that. In the realm of 'breeds' that is a pretty short time frame, and nearly matches the time frame they've been a breed in the U.S.

And as the article shows that the same horses were the heritage of both the QH and the American Thoroughbred (they had to be, they all came here at the same time), it also states that TBs are bred back into QHs.

Today, as this student views the situation, there is a parallel in the Quarter Horse Breeding world in opposition to the use of Thoroughbreds, clearly carrying a high percentage of ancient Quarter Horse blood, to improve the Quarter Horse breed.

This quote is also pulled from the article:

"Purity is a complete myth and frankly nonsense."

Since you see the foundation stock for the QH's, the Mustangs, the TB,s AND the Paso Finos all originate with the horses brought over by the Conquistadors. By your thinking then, there are no "breeds" (other then Arabians) because none are pure.

[Cindy]

By your thinking then, there are no "breeds" (other then Arabians) because none are pure.


By who's thinking? What are you talking about? I never said anything like that. Where on earth did you get that from?

[Cindy]

I certainly see the stock horse in Joe Hancock in all those photos. The only horse that resembles a TB is John Wilkins, Joe Hancock's sire.


I did not say that the horses pictured did not look like stock horses. And I surely did not say anything about them looking like Thoroughbreds. What I SAID was that they more resemble the racing Quarters of today than they do the cutting Quarters of today. Obviously you took that to mean that they looked like Thoroughbreds. They absolutely do not look like Thoroughbreds. They look like racing Quarters. Though I do definitely see the Percheron influence in Joe Hancock.

[Cindy]

Actually, I think the article makes my point

And to what point are you refering?

[Carol Nelson]

Jane Hurl wrote:
Oooooh, no you don't, Carol N. You can't get away with that, my dear -- because many Americans are breeding for different things so there is no generic "type" that can be called American!

(Can I be in love with Rafael Arbelo? Just a little?)


Felix wrote:

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I am getting jealous!!!!!!!

Well...I don't know???? Do we have a pic of Rafael around here somewhere??? We know what Felix looks like.... ;-) :D

[Jane Hurl]

Cindy ... the Quarter Horse to which I refer is the one they call the Appendix Quarter Horse. It IS crossed with TB. See this link: http://www.furrycritter.com/resources/horses/Appendix_Quarter_Horses.htm

So does this mean you'll stop rolling your eyes at me now? (I found it a tad rude.)

[CarolU]

I certainly see the stock horse in Joe Hancock in all those photos. The only horse that resembles a TB is John Wilkins, Joe Hancock's sire.


I did not say that the horses pictured did not look like stock horses. And I surely did not say anything about them looking like Thoroughbreds. What I SAID was that they more resemble the racing Quarters of today than they do the cutting Quarters of today. Obviously you took that to mean that they looked like Thoroughbreds. They absolutely do not look like Thoroughbreds. They look like racing Quarters. Though I do definitely see the Percheron influence in Joe Hancock.

Must have been your evil twin:


CarolU, did you read the article that Candice posted. It is very informative and historically accurate and answers the question that you posed. It also shows photos of QHs from the late 1800s/early 1900s that look a lot more like the racing Quarters of today than they do the cutting Quarters of today.

[Terry Wallace]

Good Lord Candice...I cannot believe you wrote these words?
Oh, and since ya'll don't seem to care about purity or bloodlines or type

have you not been keeping up on current events the past say....three years on this BB?

What makes you think we don't care about bloodlines or type? Or "purity"...? Are you kidding?

Jane....do you recall a horse named Three Bars? he was one of the most influential sires of the QH breed...and yes...Three bars was indeed a Thoroughbred.

[Fuego]

Thank you Rapheal. My point exactly.

In the U.S., Puerto Rican Paso Finos, Colombian Trocha and Colombian paso, Peruvian Pasos, and God only who else knows what where all combined into one registry ( and crossbred) in the U.S. and called the Paso Fino breed in the U.S.

So how can anyone call a PFHA paso Colombian or Puerto Rican breed when in fact they are a blend of many paso breeds ( yes individuals within the registry may be pure PR or Col., but not as a whole).

Yes the PFHA horses are Paso Finos, but as Rapheal said, you can't blend and a get "purebred". It's a hybrid.

First and foremost, yes all are Paso Fino. But PFHA Paso Finos ( as a whole) can not accurately be called Colombian or a PR breed because they are a blend. They are a American Paso Finos. Not a seperate or new breed.
American paso Fino is nothing more then a designation within the Paso breeds itself, just like Puetro Rican Paso Fino and Colombian Paso Fino. In no way does it infer that "America" created or even improved the breed.

In Candice's QH article, I noticed the term American TB quite often.....
Thanks for that fine example supporting my position Candice. Or perhaps Candice should contact the TB folks and let them know the term American TB is incorrect and meaningless and they shouldn't be using itout of context because people will assume Americans invented the TB :roll:

[PattiB]

Until bloodtyping and DNA, whose to say any of the past horses are who they say they are. You could have bred the Walker stallion to a Paso mare and said it was an offspring of Resorte IV. With the advent of these tests we now know for sure who the dam and sires are. Okay running for cover now!!!

[Terry Wallace]

Patti...excellent point and you are absolutley RIGHT-ON!

I can ASSURE you that this same thing happened in both the AQHA and the PFHA...this "purity" is b/s on a LOT of bloodlines..be it QH OR Paso Fino...

And Funny you should mention TWH crossed on PF.... !!
What about Standardbreds crossed on them in the DR?

AND>>>>>>where did tobiano gene really come from....and.....
Oh well..its all MOOT now...!!!!

[Cindy]

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:35 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cindy wrote:
Quote:
I certainly see the stock horse in Joe Hancock in all those photos. The only horse that resembles a TB is John Wilkins, Joe Hancock's sire.



I did not say that the horses pictured did not look like stock horses. And I surely did not say anything about them looking like Thoroughbreds. What I SAID was that they more resemble the racing Quarters of today than they do the cutting Quarters of today. Obviously you took that to mean that they looked like Thoroughbreds. They absolutely do not look like Thoroughbreds. They look like racing Quarters. Though I do definitely see the Percheron influence in Joe Hancock.


Must have been your evil twin:

Cindy wrote:

CarolU, did you read the article that Candice posted. It is very informative and historically accurate and answers the question that you posed. It also shows photos of QHs from the late 1800s/early 1900s that look a lot more like the racing Quarters of today than they do the cutting Quarters of today.




Carol, please reread what you have posted. You have made my point. When you read the next time, try to actually pay attention to the words and not what you THINK I said. :roll:

[Cindy]

Jane, did YOU read the article that Candice posted? I am well aware that Thoroughbreds are bred with Quarter Horses. In fact, I think I said that. What I SAID was that they ALWAYS have been. Since before the begining of the breed. And they always have been race horses, since the breed was started. So no "moron" came in and changed the breed by wanting to race them. The "morons" created the breed with their Quarter/Thorough blood for the pupose of racing.

[CarolU]

You know Cindy, you really don't have to be so rude to everyone.

My MOST SINCEREST HUMBLEST APOLOGIES that I did indeed believe I read "Racing TB's,' instead of "Racing QH's" in your statement. THAT is no reason for you to be so insulting.

Now back to the "DISCUSSION" if it is all right with your highness.

There is/has been so much crossing of racing TBs and racing QH's that they are essentially the same horse.

But the stock-horse body type and lines are THE reason the breed is so successful in the U.S. They are the pick-up/SUV of the horse world. From reading the Joe Hancock article, these lines come from the same Spanish stock as our Paso Finos, with some TB and Percheron blood in there too.

But going back to MY point about 'why not' an American Paso Fino, NONE of these "breeds" are ancient or "pure".

I don't see the American Paso Fino as any different then a Kentucky Mountain Horse, or Rocky Mountain Horse, which are both breeds with Paso Fino stock in them.

[Candice Burger]

:razz: Glad to see someone reads what I write Terry! It was a test.

Look ya'll poor PH has run and hid somewhere so I'll wrap it up.

CarolU, :shock: That was NOT the intent to "create" a blend of horses. As a matter of fact the majority wanted to keep PR to PR and COL to COL. When practicalities drove breeders to try mixing bloodlines, they found out the world didn't end and the result was pretty good. That's when allot of markeing schtick started about "oh, it's best to breed COL stallions to PR mares" and about the "American" paso fino, on and on...the military brought of good horses that were champions in the show ring in Puerto Rico and they brought up grade animals, lied about the bloodlines. Faeton LaCe, sons of Cupido, Monarca, Papyrus, Fleco de Oro, Allegreto, Alicante. Colin Phipps brought up bloodlines that are found on the papers of COL show horses today. Dan Danilo, Mahoma, Guala, Melva, Resorte III sons, etc.

Show classes were "created" to demonstrate what a paso fino was to Americans that had never been exposed to the horses like the importers were. The American public didn't have the advantage of daily exposure of riding pasos for fun or show. Since only one gait was shown in the countries of origin and since marketing had to be done to show what a paso could do with only a few hours to do it, classes were created to demonstrate those abilities. There was NO plan to create anything except to market paso finos as paso finos. There was no need to create a smooth pleasure horse. The USA was filled with breeds that did that already. What was needed was a market for a foreign breed. Don't fall for that schtick.

================================================

The AQHA was developed because the colonies had specific needs. They had short tracks so couldn't really test TBs the way they raced back then in England. Yet they still loved the races. They had territory to work and cattle to maintain. They needed a horse for this and developed one from various sources...the Spanish horses out west to TBs and drafts in the East.

They tested this horse on short tracks and on working cattle ranges. One horse could work a cow or run a race. They took a look around and said "we need to keep this type of animal around" and so created a registry to do that. They inaugurated horses that had been tested for their abilities without much concern about lineage. I don't mean they didn't record bloodlines or heritage but that the records of such were not the primary focus of accepting or rejecting a horse for registry.

From these horses evolved branches of specialization. So no, some horses descending directly from Joe Hancock aren't as tall or refined or light in build. But then the tests have changed too. The reining spin and sliding stop of today's cow horse is not the same as it was in Joe Hancock's day. Today they want a horse lower to the ground, more level tie into the neck to produce a lower gravity, faster spin. From what I can tell from reading the old timey books. Spins in JH's day were lighter in front, higher in carriage, and horses weren't stuck in one spot during the performance.

Then came the concern of preserving these descendents and keeping them "pure". I was looking at modern day descendents of Joe Hancock and you can see the draft influence and also the lack of typiness to say it's a Hancock horse in spite of the line breeding. Tastes have changed, the type of performance has changed, so I would not expect to see allot of likeness in the majority of horses.

Now I read X% Hancock, X% Blue Valentine, X% Foundation. Yeah, so? Joe Hancock was what he was because he performed the tasks he was expected to do, provided the genetics to his offspring to do the same. No one really cared about his dam side or his sire side except to say it was good to know in order to understand why he was what he was. Smart breeders look at horses, breed to get what they need, and keep what does the job and shows the class to produce it.

Now I'll ask again, do you really think breeders in the USA latching on to this endearing term are doing the same? How can that be when the tests come from where? And what of these other tests added on such as trail class obstacles? STILL the qualifying tests come from countries of origin. American breeders aren't developing horses for a specific need based on ability. They are taking a stack of papers, blending it into a horse and using the SAME tests used for decades to determine what is acceptable. That's a paso fino period.

A breeder gets one or two horses the American public is attracted to and then claims they are an "American paso fino" breeder? :confused I still don't get it. These great breeders, long before the AQHA was formed used
a term to describe a horse they developed for a specific need. They took whatever to get it, refined it, and then saw it was distinctively different so labeled it. If you look at the paso fino history it is the SAME developement that is why "paso fino" has meaning.

Now as far as I can tell this "Colombian" or "Puerto Rican" claim is no different than the Crabbet claim with Arabians. They took the elemental aspects of paso, honed it down to fit their tastes, isolated a few phenotypical traits and labeled it. Crabbet invokes the same meaning as Colombian or Puerto Rican does. Crabbet is an English bloodline, with direct genetic ties to Bedouin Arabians, and with somewhat fixed phenotypical features distinguishable from its genetic relatives. Up to three generations of humans were involved developing the Crabbet Arabian. It didn't happen overnight and not every horse was born ala "Crabbet".

Now, I've hurt some feelings I know, but I mean this in the best of ways. Be real and be honest about what you do and how you present these horses. Don't fool yourselves into thinking because you have one or two that satisfy American tastes that something has been accomplished because to be brutally honest allot of Americans are buying recent imports or offspring of recent imports with no claim to American anything. You'll go a route I've seen many have gone and a high percentage aren't involved with the breed anymore. It's great to want it and to breed for it, but don't lie to yourselves that it's a done deal because of a few years in the breed and because you've blended a few horses here and there. Test your results. Those fellows that made the quarter mare had at least two generations involved ready to hand it to the third. Those mares could have been straight TBs, or draft or Spanish or blends, but they were tested and found satisfactory. Joe Hancock was tested in the field and in the breeding shed. That's why he became a legend and why he was a founder of the AQHA. His offspring were true quarter horses.

If you want an American paso fino then you have the same advantage. It can be straight COL or PR or blends of whatever; however, it should be tested both in the field and in the breeding shed before labeling it as something unique from it's ancestors.

================================================

This is why I persist about testing our horses more harshly in the show ring. We don't have a realistic need for performance like it was in the 19th or early 20th century. We MUST demand our horses to perform so that we choose what best fits our desires and for the genetic health of the breed. If we want an American line of paso fino then create the tests to make one. If you want a phenotype to be "American" then stop oogling bloodlines, travel the world like the Blunts and our AQHA brethren and go get that phenotype. Work on it, build it up. If you see a Trocha horse that has everything but gait, then use it on mares or stallions that can fix that. Cull it, select it, test it and it won't matter if it's 3/8 Trocha and 5/8 who knows what paso bloodlines. What will matter is it performs and breeds true.

[Terry Wallace]

Whether the intention was to mix to "create" or not...the fact is...they are and they are here and it will no doubt continue.

Besides...how can one person say that it was not the intent? You'd have to poll all those involved to get the real answer.

The first thing I was ever told by a long time breeder about Paso Finos in the USA...was they were mixed to get the type of horse Americans liked best...that horse needed some size and many PPR horses were not very big (not an argument on the size of PPR horses!) and that also Americans like to see a flashier higher stepping horse (maybe influenced by TWH types at the time?) ...and not the daisy clipper step...

Blend the two together and get a bigger horse, with a "fancier" step...
hey...its a fact...in America USA....many people have that "mines better than yours" attitude.... no? Always looking to get bigger, better, prettier...etc... HEY!!! come to think of it...it also happened in QH if you think so or not! of course the FQHA folks weren't happy about it..thats WHY there is an FQHA!! :D

Happy Friday....I have a horse to shoe....gotta go..be back later..

[CarolU]

Candice, I can only take what Dave Jones wrote as his word and intent when importing horses. I wasn't there. However, I've discussed a lot of this with Stella and wish she would join this discussion because she has a lot to say on it.

If we get past the past on this breed and look at what is happening now and towards the future, THAT is where I see a parting of the ways between the countries of origin and what most Americans want. I am sure with your statement on more testing in the ring and tougher standards, you are talking about perfect gait. I am sure that Colombians and Puerto Ricans, and many in the U.S. are breeding towards that end and will continue to do so.

But I still maintain that perfect gait is NOT what most Americans want. If you wanted to design a test to breed to for an American Paso Fino it would go like this:

1. Has good to excellent conformation for soundness
2. Has a natural tendency to gait without training or specialized equipment or training
3. Is smooth enough to carry a glass of wine
4. Can corto through a pattern or obstacle course safely, without tripping or star gazing.
5. Can largo at least 12 mph
6. Can flat walk on a loose rein
7. Will corto on a loose rein
8. Can stand quietly for mounting and dismounting.

You could add other things for specialization, but THAT is the test I'd give a "Pleasure Horse" If you notice there is NO test in there for a precise 4-beat gait.

My personal opinion is that there is so much focus on the gait with certain people that they loose focus of all the OTHER things a horse can do.

[Cindy]

You know Cindy, you really don't have to be so rude to everyone.

My MOST SINCEREST HUMBLEST APOLOGIES that I did indeed believe I read "Racing TB's,' instead of "Racing QH's" in your statement. THAT is no reason for you to be so insulting.

Now back to the "DISCUSSION" if it is all right with your highness.

There is/has been so much crossing of racing TBs and racing QH's that they are essentially the same horse.

But the stock-horse body type and lines are THE reason the breed is so successful in the U.S. They are the pick-up/SUV of the horse world. From reading the Joe Hancock article, these lines come from the same Spanish stock as our Paso Finos, with some TB and Percheron blood in there too.

But going back to MY point about 'why not' an American Paso Fino, NONE of these "breeds" are ancient or "pure".

I don't see the American Paso Fino as any different then a Kentucky Mountain Horse, or Rocky Mountain Horse, which are both breeds with Paso Fino stock in them.


Carol, you are so right. Asking you to actually read what I wrote when telling me that I don't even know what I wrote was terribly rude. I should never have questioned your ability to know that I meant something other than what I said. And it was not rude at all for you to tell me what I said.

And, the Thoroughbred and Racing Quarters are EXTREMELY different in both type and abilities. The racing Quarters DO look like Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds look FAR different than racing Quarters.

And lastly, the Paso Fino, be it called American or whatever, is most definitely NOT the same as the Kentucky Mountain or Rocky Mountain Horse.

[CarolU]

Cindy, I take my apology back. Apparently it was wasted.

I did not say Paso Finos were the same as Kentucky or Rocky Mountain horses. However both breeds DO have Paso Finos in their foundation stock. Coral LaCE for one. There are also many double-registered Paso Finos and RMTs and KMTs that ARE indeed Paso Finos.

[paintedhorizon]

So then I was right, an american paso fino is a TYPE of paso fino. :lol:

Thanks for the indepth look into what caused the American, Columbia, QH, etc. :lol:

[CarolU]

So then I was right, an american paso fino is a TYPE of paso fino. :lol:

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :hug

[Fuego]

Please tell Candice. Exactly what tests do YOU perform with the horses you choose to breed and have bred? Any at all? Do you practice what you preach?

When asked what kind of horse I have, I reply, " He is a Paso Fino". If speaking to a person that is at least familiar with Paso Finos and I am asked if my horse is Colombian or Puerto Rican, I reply "Neither. He is a blend of both ( even though he heavily favors his PR side). An American Paso Fino".

By you're own arguement reasoning Candice, every person ( except the Native Americans) in the U.S.A. who thinks of theirself as an American are incorrect. They CAN'T be Americans because they all originated in other parts of the world.

Your arguement against the term "American Paso Finos" is as pointless and ridiculous as saying "American" people have no right to call theirselves "American" because it creates falsehoods, misconceptions and confusion since none of us originated in America.

[paintedhorizon]

Well, it does seem that way! hahaha

So then I was right, an american paso fino is a TYPE of paso fino. :lol:

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :hug

[Jane Hurl]

You know I love you, Fuego, but I'm not with you on this one. I grudgingly agree with Candice. (I say "grudgingly" both because I am tired of Americans taking over others' stuff and because Candice has been so disagreeable in her manner of presentation.) This is as I see it, too.

If we want an American line of paso fino then create the tests to make one. If you want a phenotype to be "American" then stop oogling bloodlines, travel the world like the Blunts and our AQHA brethren and go get that phenotype. Work on it, build it up. If you see a Trocha horse that has everything but gait, then use it on mares or stallions that can fix that. Cull it, select it, test it and it won't matter if it's 3/8 Trocha and 5/8 who knows what paso bloodlines. What will matter is it performs and breeds true.

Once you have done that, you will have created your own breed. That IS how a breed is "born". Personally, I'd rather you didn't then call it an "American Paso Fino" because that (in my opinion) is stealing from PR. I'd rather you called it an "American Stepping Horse" or an "American Paso" or an "American Pasino". Just let the PR's maintain their pride of ownership, will you ... please?

[Fuego]

OK Jane. I'll get on board with you.



But only after you get Colombia to also relinguish the Paso Fino name to the Puerto Ricans ;-)


And Jane, I never once said the American Paso Fino was it's own seperate breed. I don't believe it is.

When Bubba ( blind) HEARD me ride by he said " That's a Paso Fino". He was correct. But being that he knew Pasos, he asked wether Chino was PR or Col. He isn't either. He's both. Does it make himless a Paso Fino just because he isn't one or the other?

How about a compromise? Maybe Lori can change the name of this site to GenericPasoFinos.com and we'll agree to substitute Generic Paso Fino for all horses that are not of pure Puerto Rican decent :lol: :lol:

[Candice Burger]

Please tell Candice. Exactly what tests do YOU perform with the horses you choose to breed and have bred? Any at all? Do you practice what you preach?

When asked what kind of horse I have, I reply, " He is a Paso Fino". If speaking to a person that is at least familiar with Paso Finos and I am asked if my horse is Colombian or Puerto Rican, I reply "Neither. He is a blend of both ( even though he heavily favors his PR side). An American Paso Fino".

By you're own arguement reasoning Candice, every person ( except the Native Americans) in the U.S.A. who thinks of theirself as an American are incorrect. They CAN'T be Americans because they all originated in other parts of the world.

Your arguement against the term "American Paso Finos" is as pointless and ridiculous as saying "American" people have no right to call theirselves "American" because it creates falsehoods, misconceptions and confusion since none of us originated in America.

Actually I do. I'm fairly harsh actually. Generally I start horses later because of that. Used to I'd start the groundwork between 30 months and 3 years. At about 3 years I'd saddle one up and get them fit. Then on a day that I thought was brutally hot/humid or cold, I'd get up and plan to test for stamina. I'd see how they would handle themselves once I got them tired and if they had the will to work or quit. I try to take them to the point of exhaustion without breaking them down. When I lived in your neck of the woods, Mitch, I used the Appalchian foothills to work them in just to see if they would keep climbing up the hill or not. In Florida, it's too flat but the sand and the heat might work.

Right now, I'm hoping to begin adding another project by working towards a fully bridled vaquero type horse to test the agility and responsiveness I like. I hope to eventually develop a 3 prong program where the horses are started, tested for stamina, bridled, and then either go into cow work, endurance, or PF showing depending on their talents. I figure it would take about 3 years to really finish one out decently. A year of saddle work using the trails, about a year or more bridling using the PF shows to test gait, and then on to something a tad more strenuous. Since I like to start my horses later, their age fits nicely into various competitions.

I breed for temperament and prefer smart horses with some noble character and like ones that are arrogant and confident. I prefer a forgiving nature but the lines I pick are known to be difficult because of their arrogance and smarts. I'm more forgiving of phenotype and conformation to collect the mental aspects for now.

I'm on my second phase of looking at confo and getting in some better phenotype that I prefer. I have a stallion that I bred and hand raised that I think is pretty darn good in size, confo, mental abilities. His stamina is the best and he shows allot of class. There's very few horsemen that visit that don't pick him out. He's producing better than average number of better than average foals. That's not to say I don't have some disappointments and have to readjust some crosses. Overall he provides size, temperament, and improves some confo issues I've got in the mares. I don't like his color, his imbalance in the front, his diagonalness in gait. He has good mechanics, quiet, elegant movements.

I'm slowly accumulating mares from lines that I think will nick to give me the response I want out of his daughters. There's a theory out that I'm going to try about using related mares to develop a cluster of brood stock for genetic reproductivity. Right now, I'm researching two aspects. One to breed the mares I have to compliment him and one to find stallions for his daughters base on this premise. Of course I also believe in strong mare lines so, I'm using some of those theories too, to see what happens.

Right now I have 8 foals with 3 sets of full siblings. Of the 8, I consider 2 disappointing, 2 average, 4 above average and think 3 of those 4 are suitable for my next phase in breeding. All are mixes except for one brood mare that is full Colombian. I have a whole other idea about mixing but let's just stick to me since that's your chosen target today.

I've spent the last few years, refining my ideas and trying to make them a reality. I've spent allot of hours researching, studying, talking to many experienced people who really know what they are doing. It isn't easy starting from scratch with no money, no place of my own, and no time to committ to it, but I have managed to hold on to my horses in spite of it and slowly get something going. When I can afford it, I travel to look at stallions, to visit generational experts in breed, to read as much as I can.

The other day I announced to my life's partner that I think I finally might know a little bit about what I'm doing. I'm totally elated to feel like I'm on the right track doing what I believe will make a decent horse that won't insult the work those before me. I'm looking forward to breaking in my stallion's daughters and seeing just how much they have to offer and am looking forward to the day I can test them in the breeding shed and see if I come close to my ideals. They are my second generation of home-growns and I'm looking forward to my third generation. I'm hoping with a few more years of hard work, I'll be able to offer something that I can say will work in the saddle and in the breeding shed.

It's been a few years since I last saddle broke a young horse, so I'm more than a little worried about injuries. I'm hoping the groundwork with get me in better condition and I hope to work in some riding lessons with an instructor to get my balance back. I've got a bad habit of bracing in my legs and want to work that out too. My hands are good and my seat is fair. If I can get that bad habit out of my legs, my seat will be in good shape too, which leaves allot of work for my legs. I started all of my horses and started a few others for various trainer boyfriends over the years and worked on rehabilitating a few. I'm not a professional trainer, a judge, an exhibiter or a breeder. What I am is a full time student of horses. If I can't start one anymore I've got a few trainers I trust and respect that will fill the bill for me.

Your problem Mitch is that you can't take an idea or theory without making it sound like it has to be a war of wills to see who wins. I'm an American because that is who I am. :roll: I look like one, I act like one, I dress like one and when I travel out of the country I'm easily identified as one. My bloodlines are half Irish and the other half a blend of German and English. It's not only about where you are born or what your bloodlines are. It's the essence of living it. Just like Joe Hancock was the Quarter Horse because that is what is he was he had all the attributes of something distinctively different than his ancestors.



Like I said before call it what you want when you say "American" paso fino, just be prepared that someone, someday is gonna ask you what that is. I hope it won't take 4 pages before someone finally admits it means different things to different people. Some smart-a-ss like me is going to ask you about this and I hope you'll won't be a disenchanting if they begin to question it. Spewing forth acronyms ain't that cute. For the record I have argued FOR the right to use the term, so anytime you need a spokesperson who can say something other than "PITA" when the fire gets hot, I am for hire. ;-)

And yes, Michelle, Stella and I have had many, many discussions about this over the years. I don't see it the way she does BUT if anyone has the right to use the term she does. She is one of two people I've met that understand why I question this. I have the greatest respect for her breeding program when using the term "American paso fino". She is intelligent, thoughtful, knowledgable with her breeding and with her reasoning for using the lines she uses. She knows what the term is, knows what it means to her and follows through with her plans. I prize her opinion and seek her advice. She is well regarded in many circles and many highly repected people speak with great esteem about her. She's a great sounding board for conformation and I hope to have her analyze my horses for me. Besides she's got some nice stock as well. Just because we all don't agree doesn't mean we don't converse and share ideas. ;-)

Overall Mitch your personal slants in this discussion is unappealing. First you call me a name and then attack my integrity. Is there anything else I can accomodate you with today?

And Jane you may not like my style but I've watched yours too. If you don't like how I ask a question perhaps you could interpret for me. Let me know your fees.

[dana]

Until bloodtyping and DNA, whose to say any of the past horses are who they say they are. You could have bred the Walker stallion to a Paso mare and said it was an offspring of Resorte IV. With the advent of these tests we now know for sure who the dam and sires are. Okay running for cover now!!!

I'm sure this must be the same for why some say the Paso was never crossed with anything else in Cuba, Right?

[Fuego]

Thanks for a very enlightening post Candice.


Your problem Mitch is that you can't take an idea or theory without making it sound like it has to be a war of wills to see who wins. I'm an American because that is who I am. I look like one, I act like one, I dress like one and when I travel out of the country I'm easily identified as one. My bloodlines are half Irish and the other half a blend of German and English. It's not only about where you are born or what your bloodlines are. It's the essence of living it.
************************************************** *********

Chino was bred and raised in N. Dakota. Sent off to a ranch in S.Dakato to be saddle broke. Bought and moved to Minnesota. Also lived in Pennsylvania, Kentucky. Has worked cattle on a Missouri ranch, trail rode the Appalachains and Ozark Mnts. Barrel races, pole bends, rode in American Western tack, travels in an American made trailer pulled by a mostly made American Truck.

Is that American enough for you Candice or should I teach him to play baseball and eat hot dogs? ( he already likes apple pie)

[Cindy]

Cindy, I take my apology back. Apparently it was wasted.

I did not say Paso Finos were the same as Kentucky or Rocky Mountain horses. However both breeds DO have Paso Finos in their foundation stock. Coral LaCE for one. There are also many double-registered Paso Finos and RMTs and KMTs that ARE indeed Paso Finos.


Carol, your apology came with a slap in the face and was not a true apology anyway so you may do with it what you wish.

What you said was that you did not see any difference in the American Paso Fino, the Kentucky or Rocky Mouintain horses. I took this to mean that you felt that in type these three breeds were interchangable and you saw no difference in them. Now you say that you did not say that Paso Fino were the same as Kentucky or Rockies. Could you please clarify so that we know what you are talking about? Because I obviously was mistaken in what I thought you were saying. Thanks.

[CarolU]

But going back to MY point about 'why not' an American Paso Fino, NONE of these "breeds" are ancient or "pure".

I don't see the American Paso Fino as any different then a Kentucky Mountain Horse, or Rocky Mountain Horse, which are both breeds with Paso Fino stock in them.

I was not talking about 'type' I was talking about calling an "American Paso Fino" a breed. Rocky's and Kentucky's also have COL and PR PF blood, and yet they each are a "breed." There are even purebred Paso Finos that are registered in these other two breeds.

It's all in the "name."

[paintedhorizon]

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but WORDS will never hurt me.

It's just that. A WORD.

Definition of AMERICAN is a native or inhabitant of the United States. That's what the American Paso Fino was at the time it began being called that.

[Cindy]

I was not talking about 'type' I was talking about calling an "American Paso Fino" a breed. Rocky's and Kentucky's also have COL and PR PF blood, and yet they each are a "breed." There are even purebred Paso Finos that are registered in these other two breeds.

It's all in the "name."
Got ya. I understand now what you were saying.

[Jane Hurl]

*mumble. grumble. grouse.* Yes, there are Pasos in the Rocky Mountain registry. They are there because it is a NEW registry. They are still working at CEMENTING characteristics, one of which is the gait, so they are importing exceptional Pasos in order to do that. Most breeds DO that kind of thing from time to time in order to keep vigour in the breed.

That is also what the MORONS have done with the Quarter Horses. They've added so much Thoroughbred (to get more racing speed) that they've bastardized the breed beyond all recognition. (Obviously, that's IMO.) And, no, Cindy -- according to my research, they were NOT bred to race. They were bred to WORK -- cutting, roping, running down errant cattle. As Mitch pointed out, the racing came after the week's work was done and the boys got together on Sundays to see who had the fastest horse.

But that's not the same as taking the name of another breed and stealing it! You'll note that the Rocky people are not calling their breed the Rocky Mountain Paso Fino.

Oh, and by the way ... Candice? I'm sorry. I used your name in vain. Back a few posts, when I said I only grudgingly agreed with what you wrote about a breed standard because of your attitude, I was mixed up. I was confusing you with Cindy. Sorry about that. (And I've had sent you a PM of apology but I can't find a way to send them. *grin*)

[Cindy]

Jane, you might want to do some more research. You can start with the article that Candice posted about a stallion who was very influential in the Quarter Horse breed.

The history of the Quarter Horse breed is not opinion. It is documented fact.

[Cindy]

Here is another article to check out, Jane. Plaese pay special notice to this paragraph:

The Quarter Horse is truly an American breed of horse. It was created to compete in quarter racing, one of the earliest forms of horse racing in America from crossing Thoroughbreds to the various other horses gentlemen had at the time.

http://mo.essortment.com/americanquarter_rkpv.htm

[Cindy]

And here is another. Note this paragraph:

Eighteen of the first nineteen registration numbers assigned to horses in Vol. I of the American Quarter Horse Stud Book were saved for living horses that had proved themselves as outstanding sires of offspring of Quarter Horse type. Examination of the pedigrees of these horses indicates that many of them carried in excess of 50 per cent of Thoroughbred breeding, and only a very few of them did not carry some known Thoroughbred breeding rather close up in their pedigrees.

http://www.diamondhquarterhorses.com/American_Quarter_Horse_History.html