respect issues

[finolover]

yes or no

can all respect issues be handle with ground work?

[CarolU]

Earl,

It is an interesting question. The real truth is that if you do enough ground work, and do it right, you won't have respect issues once you are in the saddle. But, once you're in the saddle, if you get in a situation where the horse loses confidence (say they are afraid of a new environemnt or confused when you're trying to train something new), you can create respect issues in the saddle, if you don't deal with that moment properly.

There are two types of respect issues, right brain (the horse is unconfident, possibly afraid) and left brain (the horse is full of confidence, but you are not his alpha). It is important to recognize the difference - because you handle each differently.

As an example, leading a horse that is afraid...his head will be up, he'll be walking all over you (you are the safety zone), he'll be whinnying for his alpha (probably back at the barn). With this horse you need to quickly get his attention and make him back away from you, get him DOING things, yielding, etc. get him to change brains and respect your space. You are the top dog. I'm not saying be mean, but be as firm as you have to be to get that horse to stay 3 feet away. That is my rule, 3 feet. This is very much a safety issue. (BTW - lounging in this circumstance is not a fix...horses can run in circles when they're afraid, all day long)

A horse that is confident may pull you around, stop to eat, drag you around. He's relaxed about it, swishing his tail, you may as well not exist. You could probably jerk on his head all day and he'll decide you're just an irritant. Nothing more. This is where a goog knotty rope halter, stud chain and a quick pop with a lead comes in. This really IS a respect issue. You need to move him around, drive him, get him to circle and work. I've seen QH's that you could pop their butt all day and not get them to move...but flick their flank or under belly and they suddenly wake up.

And, just to make life interesting, horses will change in a hearbeat. That calm, confident, laze around the barn alpha horse can turn into a terrified, right brained, runaway if a deer bounds through or a bird takes flight...and that fear can disapear just as fast, when YOU heave a big "oh, just a deer" sigh.

[Terry Wallace]

No...all respect issues cannot be "handled with ground work" as some respect issues will come up, after you are in the saddle...
Like spooking on a trail ride, or kids throwing things at you in a parade...
The horse must respect your judgement to stay calm, to do as you giude him... so some "respect issues" will come up, that you cannot duplicate in your round pen...

However, that said... the amount and type of ground work you do...will pay off later when you call on that horse ...from the saddle, in "special" situations... ground work is VERY important...I mean constructive ground work....that is teaching something...and not just letting a horse out on a long longe line to run willy-nilly circles around you, with no control, thought or purpose....

[GeorgeGuns]

I might as well add my 2 cents, lol.

I don't think all can be handled from the ground. Good for instance: a horse that leads out well with a handler, off property, just person and horse, no problem. Person gets on back and horse gets a bit boinky or worse. Is this a respect issue though?

I don't think shying is a respect issue, I think HOW a horse shies is an issue. A respectful horse will shy away from ya, the unrespectful will try to mow you down.

I also think most horses can tell the difference between being ridden and being worked on the ground. One can have 100% respect on the ground and have a horse get out of hand under saddle - the problem is happening while riding, address it while riding. I've also had a horse that was a real creep on the ground, but once I got on her, she was fantastic! Go figure.

Is barn sourness undersaddle a respect issue? I've had a few horses that have quit their sourness after a few sessions of returning from a trail ride only to have to keep riding at home. I don't think that is respect so much as what "home" means to a horse. Horses that jig or worse do have respect problems. Can this be schooled out on the ground? In some cases yes, in some cases no.

I think each horse is an individual, and a smart rider will pay attention to all the cues a horse is giving to tell them why a horse is behaving the way they are. I also feel that trust and respect are two different but overlapping issues. A horse can respect you on the ground and not trust you - which will show in the saddle. IOW you can have respect without trust, but you can't have trust without respect.
jmho.

[CarolU]

Coreen, I agree with several things you say...particularly the last statement about respect and trust. A horse may respect you out of fear...as man has been demonstrating with horses for hundreds of years. I think it's a relatively new concept that horses will also respect you if they trust you.

I don't think a horse that runs you over is disrespectful...they are usually afraid. They may not respect your space, but the reason a frightened horse jumps into you is because you are the safety zone. This is normal herd behavior. This is why it is critical to firmly establish a no entry zone for your horse before you start any ground work that my frighten the horse.

I also think you're right about barn sourness...at least most of the time. The barn is safety, the barn is the herd, and usually the barn is where the alpha horse is. A horse that won't leave frequently lacks the confidence in himself and you to do so. This is where John Lyons method of going and returning really helps, so the horse learns he isn't really 'leaving'...he'll be back. He also learns that you respect his cowardess and let him become confident in both of you.

Of course a strong left brain balk is more like, "I'm not going one step farther and you can't make me" and is oozing with confidence. LOL This is where getting the horse to make a choice to work his butt off right there or continue on a nice trail ride really comes in.

The trick to all this Earl is learning to read your horse. And that, sadly, only comes with time and experience.

Confidence Issues
by Linda Parelli

The more you push a horse against his will, the more you'll bring up his fear, resistance, or fight. Take your time getting from A to B. Pay attention to his thresholds and don't blast across them.

Instead, retreat to the spot where he's calmer, then re-approach the threshold. Do this until he's calm and chooses to cross it. Then do the same with any other threshold you encounter.

You'll be amazed at the difference in your horse's self confidence and his confidence in you as a trustworthy leader.

[finolover]

Of course a strong left brain balk is more like, "I'm not going one step farther and you can't make me"

i think this is mo's train off thought..i had to teach him to lead, he wanted to go any place he felt like, walking around me, dragging me,,ect...
i got that fixed...with ground work.

the john lyons thing won't work, because he won't take one step forward when he balks, he snorts, drops head , rapid pawing...then backwards we go , him looking for a tree, fence,or ditch, he's been ridden on Bosal, but would a sharp one rein yank on a jointed sweet iron snaffle get his attention, when he starts backing up :?: retreat to the spot where he's calmer
done this over and over....he just gets antzy and escalates his actions..

[Boyd R]

Earl are you saying he had been ridden in only a bosal but you are now riding him in a snaffle?? If so my experience is you are now elevating his performance and not knowing how to handle it or teaching him new tricks without a manual, if you understand. I have seen a number of new paso owners have a little problem or feel a little insecure and immediatly go to a bit or harsher equipment only to escalate the horses brio and or problems. Brio for some is a problem.

[finolover]

no i'm not using a bit....just wondered about using one

[Boyd R]

I wouldn't

[GeorgeGuns]

I wouldn't go with a bit either.

The threshold doesn't apply just to fear, it also applies to a very confident horse that is diggin in his heels. Know where the threshold is, and do go that far. I get under a lot of horses, and often my first visit with a horse involves the horse emphatically telling me it wants its hoof back NOW in no kind terms. So, I put the hoof back down a little sooner than the hores expected, make a mental note of how much time this is and go from there. I get a lot more cooperation from a horse that way, sometimes even surprising the owners, and usually the horse is not even trying to be a weenie after several minutes, AND they learn to ask nicely to please put their hoof down for a moment. (God didn't make these guys to stand on three legs, esp if their feet are ouching). If you know how far you can get before Mo acts up, Don't go that far! respect his limits, push them when he gets to that limit looking like he is going to snore. Sneak past his limit by a few steps and then Oops we went there lets go back, and then only go to his previous limit a few times, sneak another go-past & oops, and see how that goes.

Check your saddle too. IF his withers are pinched or the saddle sits "downhill" on him, backing will be easier than going forwards because of the way the shoulder moves, it would make sense for him to choose this method of balking. It could even be fear of saddle pain if he's experienced that in the past.

Anyway, if he is not used to carrying a bit, going to one would likely just tick him off. A sharp tug on an unconditioned mouth will certainly get his attention, but most likely in a way you really wouldn't appreciate.

[CarolU]

Earl, to save you a year or two's subscription to John Lyon's, his method is very near what Linda is describing.

Start by riding him around the barn, out of site of Quito, but not far, definatley not as far as he stops to balk. Go around and around, back and forth. Lot's of reassurance. As he calms with the idea, gradually go around the barn and the house, again and again. Then down the drive and back again and again. Then farther and back, again and again.

Each time you are approaching his threshold, but stop before he reaches it - your idea to stop, not his. His threshold will move farther and farther out as he gains confidence you and himself. If resistence is his 'issue' he'll learn not to resist...what's the point? He'll be going back soon anyway.

[Jasfino]

One thing I got out of your post Earl was that you had to teach him how to lead...he wasnt listening to you. Although you said you had that fixed through ground work, he may need more work just to cement the fact into his brain. We ride the horse we lead. If a horse is disrespectful while leading, he will most often be disrespectful while riding. Mo probably needs more time with you working on the ground work till there is no doubt in his mind you are top dog. I still go through my ground work that I started Jasper with.. before every ride, just to get his attention and let him know its time to listen up. You might try leading him away from the barn if that makes you feel more comfortable.

[GeorgeGuns]

:idea: bOy I am having a duh moment.

Okay, Jen found THE point. You had to reteach him to lead. That is so basic! This horse is plain missing a lot of basics!!!!! "Riding is the act of staying on a horse" and that's all. (PatP) Just because a horse accepts a rider and will take a few steps does not mean its training is complete, there can be a lot of holes and it looks like Mo needs to start all the way over.
Given the fact that we already know he is dangerous away from the barn, I would not ride him outside of an enclosure until you two are consistent with the basics in the pen. By consistent I mean that you can ask for something 10 times in a row and get it every time with no hesitation or otherwise negative reaction on his part. These would include hte following activities:
Ground work - lead on a loose rein north south east west, lower head to ground and keep it there with light poll squeeze. Yield hindquarters full circle, yield front full circle. Stay on a circle on a 12-14 foot line in the gait of YOUR choice 3-4 times around. Change direction. Do the same on a longer line and also spiral in and out at your request. Stop. Back up both directly away from you and while on the circle. Yield his hindquarters with you over 6 feet away. Yield his front with you over 6 feet away.
Riding work - all of the above but from the saddle and obviously not on a lunge line.

i know you understand several important principles, but we will rehash anyway, lol. Horses learn through pressure and release, and repetition and consistency. Pressure and release teaches, lightening the cues and repetition ingrains and refines. Consistency allows trust and respect.

I'd restart him like I do the youngn's. Do everything in an enclosure til its quite consistent, then go about 15 feet outside the enclosure and do some more. Spend a little more time each time outside, and eventually (at horse's speed) go further away - on the ground! Don't even mount him outside the pen til he is consistent in the pen with everything - this does NOT mean he will be perfect the first time or two or three that you get on him outside the enclosure, but you will be so far ahead of the game when you do that you can get off if he acts silly, school on the ground, mount again, get one good response from the saddle and quit right there. Don't start riding in the pen and then ride him through the gate, get off and take him out to a safe (to him) distance and only get on and off. Earl you literally need to reteach this horse how to be with humans under all circumstance, and to teach him (new material) that humans are worth listening to - he has never been taught this.

Any good training program of any discipline, whether they talk about it or not, relies on the pressure and release, and reptition and consistency to be successful. Timing and reading the horse are parts of this. You may be told by a trainer that the end result of all this is a wel trained horse, and that is certainly true, the trainer may not realize that he/she has also instilled trust and respect with a careful and consistent program that fits the horse's mental and physical needs.

I know you heard basically all the same stuff about Quito, but with Quito, the focus was different. Quito has/had trust issues about some specific activities, but otherwise is a well trained horse for pleasure riding, or at least that is the impression I have gotten. He needs a little confidence and a lot of trust, respect is something he wants to give. Mo is a totally opposite game! His issues are quite related to respect and only a little to trust. Both issues are equally important, however the focus of each horse dictates how you present the requests to them. Quito needs reptition of calm and slow, reassurance and reward for calm. Mo needs repetition of action, firm and proactive from the human, and reptition of new responses with reward of a different focus. Quito needs emotional reward (yes food can fall in to this) and Mo needs the reward of release in a much more emphatic way. What all this gets down to is that you basically to the same thing with two different horses, but your own body language and presentation need to fit the horse's picture. I hope this is making sense, because its highly conceptual and not as much task oriented, so its a little difficult to explain for me.

Once again I would highly recommend getting the Level one Parelli kit. The cost is equivalent to about 1 month training with a trainer, but its yours for life, AND a solid level one performance should deal with both horse's probelms. The reason I bring this up is because its such a well done program, Linda shows lots of work with both types of horses. I think its important for you to see that, just to ingrain in your brain the differences of presentation of yourself needed for each horse.
The principles and organization of thought and action presented in that program are nearly without fault, the safetly factor skyrockets, and so does the learning curve for both horse and human. Yes there are lots of "gurus" out there, but given your circumstance, I really do think this is appropriate. jmho.

[Jasfino]

Coreen is right about not riding him out until you get a consistent response in an enclosed area. The groundwork that she described in the post is exactly what I do with Jasper. He has done this so many times since I started him, that he knows exactly what I am going to ask of him and he does it with no questions asked. Somedays when I get him out to ride, he can be having a bad day... I mean that by appearing jumpy or nervous, but when I get him started on the groundwork, it seems he settles right it. I guess he has learned the routine and that is what he feels comfortable in. Horses are like us.. they love routine. Have you ever been having a bad day and then force yourself into your routine and somehow it seems that you feel better just by the mere fact its takes your mind off what was bothering you? Horses are that way too.

Another thing that I have found with my horse is they do better with short lessons. Like Coreen said get one good response and then quit. That teaches them that the right thing is a good thing. You might want to work with him twice a day in small intervals. If leaving the herd is the main problem, I would start by leading him away from the herd. Try not to get him too far away that he starts acting silly. Come back before he starts dancing around and then go a little further and further out. If he starts to tense up as you are leading him.. that would probably be about the same spot he would start pawing.. backing.. while you were riding him. Start on that groundwork that you have been working on until you have his full undivided attention.

It may take awhile, but dont think about the time period. Take your time and instead of focusing on riding him, focus on teaching him that you are his trusted friend.

[Edurne]

I used to get into discussions with Primero where he would end up backing and sometimes coming up off his front legs - not fun at the top of a 50' ridge. After many years, quite by chance I used a leather quirt to smack his shoulder, and he responds very well to that. Stops all arguement and off he goes, tica taca. Missed your other posts about Mo - so this may be of no help at all. Cheers.

[ErinC]

Edrune I agree,
I ride with a leadline tied to my saddle, and I have to use it some times to tap the horse on the rump to get him to go forward. it works great.

[reuben T]

On one hand I would say, ideally all respect issues can and should be handled with ground work, but when it comes down to practicality there's always going to be something here and there that dosent fit the ideal mold.
On spooking, the ideal is to teach the horse that all spooks come from me, and sence I'm your herd leader, all spooks are harmless. And do that in the pen. Then when we get to the trail and another potentual spook happens it's no big deal. Working through behaverial difficulties with horses is very educational, very charactor building for the person, very rewarding once you get through them.
The basic idea is to do transitions in the round pen, (go right and then left) and every time you tell the horse to change direction and cause him to do it, it's demonstrating your capability of leadership. gradually, and usually in a few minutes the horse will recognize your leadership and accept it, then we just start doing things, introducing everything the horse might be scared of, (with horse loose in pen) and every time horse leaves me because of it, I just send him back and forth a few more times, go back to him, bring him over, spend a minute in peaceful togetherness, then causually bring on the "thing" again. (tarp/firecracker/chainsaw, etc) when it comes down to not being able to find any thing else that will make the horse leave me over. He's ready to go on with yealding to bit pressure, learning to start and stop on command, side pass, front yeald, rear yeald, and whatever, everything needed to ride can be taught on ground so when starting to ride almost nothing is new.

[finolover]

i pulled a Dumb move today !!!

i was taking ultimo out for a walk on the lead , he checked out fine in the corral (respect wise) he walked behind and listened well, but out in the yard he started his walking and gawking all over the place.......so i set him up to longe a few circles to get his attention, on the third circle i said whoa and pulled his nose around or tried to...i set back on the line and threw him flat on his side :shock: the wet grass and my yank pulled that big lug over.......i was so scared he was hurt!!!

he rolled over stood up , shook himself off like nothing ever happened.
thank God he was ok.....i learned a quick lesson about longing on wet footing, i got lucky...if it had been quito it would have been a huge set back, but i think it improved ultimo's concentration as he really responded
to all cues .....i had a pocket full of carrots to offer as an I'M Sorry :(

[CarolU]

That's a good story Earl! Glad to hear he's okay. I guess he learned he should listen to you when you say "WHOA DAMMMIT"! ;-)

[reuben T]

there was an old trainer, (a very famous one in his day) who would take horses ruined by mishandling, the worst of the dangerous ones, and throw them, hold them down till they relaxed. He was very successful, never was a horse he couldn't cure of all it's bad habits from bad handling.
I think it accomplished the same thing as the modern natural horsemanship trainers do in round penning.
I learned from an old man I knew how he'd watched the indians train wild horses in Nevada. They'd throw them and hold them down and pet them till they quit struggling, then do the other side, when done indian just gets up and walks off, horse gets up and follows him and he has a friend for life.
I heard a story of a horse, had a habit of throwing his head up high when anyone tried to put a halter on, one time he was in a stall with a low ceiling, that time when up went his head, he conked it hard on the beam and knocked himself out cold, came to soon, was ok aside from a bruse, but he never did it again.
For a man to cause a horse to lay down, (without hurting him of course)
is an act of domination, (just like making them do transitions in the pen.)
and being a horses mind is designed to accept that domination (more or less) and be happy with it, it works to help us acheive that herd leader role and respect we're after.

[CarolU]

Reuben, I respectfullly disagree with you.

There are two ways to get a horse's respect. You can do it through fear..and throwing a horse, tieing it down, old time "breaking" methods, harsh bits, hitting them over the head, are old time proven ways of doing this. Yes, you can train a horse by putting the fear of death in him.

You can also EARN a horse's respect by being a smarter horse then he is. This is the theory behind natural horsemanship. There is no need to do any of those harsh methods or EVER make the horse be afraid of you. The horse should respect and TRUST you, never fear you.

BTW - I've seen horses have their leg's broken being thrown by 'famous' clinicians, right in front of a horrified group of people. I have a neighbor who jumps horses in the back of a pick-up, thorws them there, hog ties them, and sends them down the road - only broke a few horse's legs in all the years he's done this.

The ONLY time I'd recommend throwing a horse is if it was absolutely necessary to save it's life. Too much can go wrong...and every once in a while there is that ONE horse who refuses to submit....

There's a better way and I thank God we have found it and are smart enough to leave all that old-school CRAP behind.

[Jasfino]

I agree with Carol about throwing a horse. All this does is instill fear in the horse. There are much better ways of communicating with them.

[Minouri]

When I first got Scooter I had him boarded in a paddock with a very aggressive mare. No matter what I tried to do....move her off, bring a crop, make noise.....nothing seemed to back her down. She would get between me and Scooter and start biting and kicking at me. I found a local man who is not an official "natural horseman" but one who my friends said was just really good with horses and new a lot about groundwork.

He fixed that problem by teaching me to work the other horse like it was on an invisibe lunge line .....that's the shortened version.....and she never gave me grief again after he taught me what to do. Wouldn't even pin her ears.

He then asked me to walk my horse around for him. I told him...I don't have any problems with MY horse....just that mare. lol Little did I know.
I worked with him for just a couple of months and I'm often grateful that I did. He taught me a lot about respect and space. I'm not saying he knew it all or was the perfect trainer....but I will say that he improved my relationship with my horse 150% I still sometimes call him when I wonder about something.

I don't recommend him to my friends anymore. Strangely he has worked with a couple and I've seen a pattern. They want HIM to work out the problem and fix it. When he tells them that its' a process and that THEY need to learn how to do it so there is consistancy....it all falls apart. My friends end up riding horses that they cannot take near certain things or in certain places because the horse is "afraid' of this or that. One friend of mine takes her horse only on the track or int he paddock at her barn because her horse is afraid of the woods. That sounds crazy to me.

Respect is such a complicated issue because we tend to think it all happens within the horse. We forget that it's 50/50.

One in saddle problem that I thought was a respect issue was solved pretty quickly by my dressage trainer. When we rode in a busy ring.....if horses were running the other way my horse would spin and go with them and no matter what I tried I couldn't seem to stop it.

It took a trainer to show me that the fault was mine. When the horses headed our way....my lack of experience tensed me up.....and I would hesitate to see where the horses were going before telling Scooter what to do. With a lack of direction from me.....he made the decision for me and his decision made sense.....let's go WITH the herd. When I saw it that way, I wasn't angry with him anymore and I made the change within myself.....learning the ring rules, calling out if I wasn't sure, giving cues clearly and before he had time to worry......the issue ceased to exist.

Both trainers stressed to me that we communicate so much more to our horses than we know. When a horse is acting up (not saying this about all horses) usually it is a miscommunication in some way.

Because of the two wonderful trainers I had, I can take my Paso almost anywhere. If we come to something that makes him nervous I let him stop and look at it.....then I ask him to trust me. I don't ask him to do anything that he cannot do or that I think could hurt him but I do ask him to put his fears aside and let me decide if it's safe.

Both trainers told me that while trailriding there are rules to acceptable and unacceptable responses to fear. If something jumps out of the bushes...you can stop....you can dance till you relax....you cannot back....you cannot spin. Both rider and mount take a moment to breath and then you go on. Expecting a horse to never spook would be like asking me not to jump during a horror flick. They will eventually meet up with something they dont' expect. But how they handle it and you determines if you have put enough training into your horse.

That's just some back yard horse input....I vote for some being ground and some being necessary in saddle.

[Privatetreaty]

Ground training not only works, but can open your horse to your world.

WEEK ONE - joining up
Use a round or square pen. This doesn't work in a large or open area.

I like working with no halter or whip, just a lead rope (not a super thick),
as an extension of the arm, like you would a whip, but no touching.

Let the horse run around a bit to get the edge off and then ask for a stop.
If he refuses, box him in, until he turns facing you. Once he turns around,
stand at a 45 degree angle from his shoulder and turned your body facing
slightly away from him. Call and wait till the horse comes to you.

Once you've repeated this step a couple of times then walk around and
have him follow you. Say "stop" and you should stop at the same time.


Helpful Hints-

Use one clear word for each command: stop, come, down, etc.

With every good deed, say "good boy" and massage the crest (mares do this to foals).
Horses are not mind readers - speak to them.
If you really want to see something - sing to them - cowboys do it.

Blow a little in his nose (he thinks you're smelling him) .
Excellent communication vehicle between animals.

If he ever turns and attempts to run away, box him in again and start
over again until he comes back. Turning around after the "box in" is submission.



WEEK TWO- continue to do exercises in week one and add-

TRUST
Ask him to lower his head by guiding with hand (palm up) in front and
off to the side a bit (so he can see your hand).

and basic despooking-
I introduce props, silent (large towel), then noisy (large black trash bag)
and then the scary (umbrella). Show it for a couple seconds and pet.
Always speaking softly and few words (like "it's okay") .


You'll be surprised how much even the rankest horse will change.
Try it for a couple of weeks and let us know how it went.

[Lynn L.]

I have another respect "game" that I am using on my boy. It is simply to have him keep two eyes on me no matter what. I put his rope halter on him and ask him to look at me. If he looks to the right I run to the left swinging the lead rope till his butt turns and he is facing me again (his hind end disengaged). Then I just stand there and make sure that he is looking at me. If he flicks an ear in a direction, I might jiggle the rope a little till he looks at me with both eyes again. While it sounds simple, for a horse with respect issues, it can be a very difficult game. It also can be a good physical excercise for me too!

The thing about this game is that for my boy, he kind of zones out a little while looking at me. When he zones back in he frequently jerks his head up kind of like "what am I doing here?" I just gently remind him to look at me with two eyes no matter what. Then you can start the game in motion, like me walking backwards and him walking to me. Rhett figured once I started walking that he could just drive me around like a herd member. Well, once I was told what he was doing, I got better at setting his boundaries. This means his respect for me builds. (At least I hope so!)

The advantage of this whole thing is that I should have his respect under saddle and his brain shouldn't leave me. However, if he zones out under saddle he understands that he doesn't have to freak out. Before we started this excercise, he spooked really bad when was riding him in my pasture after I had been riding for 45 minutes in the same place. Now, I am better at making sure that his attention is on me. But if he does the "what am I doing here" thing, he won't immediately fly off the handle.

I keep having to tell myself that respect is a daily process. It comes through everything you do. It will not come overnight. But the playing with my horses has taught me so much, that the trip is worth it!

[Privatetreaty]

Just wondering-
Did anyone try the "join-up"?
How did it go?

This is something kind of hard to explain.
I always thought it's easier to see it done live.

So, if anyone is interested in seeing a live demo in Miami, please e-mail me.

[darcy]

I make my mare "join-up" on a regular basis, as a result I never have trouble catching her. If she takes a step away from me as I approach I immediately ask her to move in a circle around me (I open my shoulder in the direction I want her to move and hold my arm out towards her hind end, and stare at her as though I'm going to move her with my eyes), after a few revolutions she will drop her head and blink so loudly I can hear it (it's kinda like her chewing, a definite tell that she's thinking) at this point I stop pushing her with my eyes, straighten my shoulders, soften my body language, and drop my gaze down and back up two steps to tell her I'm done pushing her away. Without fail she will walk right up to me when I take the pressure off, after this she will follow me like a dog until I tell her to stand.

I also use this if she tries to pull her head away while haltering or bridleing, it works really well for me to tell her I'm the boss without using fear.

While I am normally doing this in her pen, I have done it sucessfully in an 20 acre pasture when I was looking to buy her and had no relationship with her yet. I was amazed that it worked but it did.

I love this method, I will never try to crowd a unwilling horse into a corner again in order to catch one. I can do it in half the time and much more safely this way.

Sometimes I use my lead rope as a tool to ask her to move but rarely as she is so sensitive to my intentions that it is not needed, though on a horse who is downright disrespectful I can see needing to ask for forward movement with a lunge whip or lead rope.

I find this also helps with facing up, I believe that a horse turning it's back to you is the ultimate sign of disrespect. Re-enforcing that you are the alpha horse will keep them from even thinking that is acceptable behavior.

I also use it on a very bossy, mouthy QH mare who is the polar opposite of my paso mare, to help set my personal boundaries, she's one that likes to get all over you and I find that it works on her as well. It's a totally different aim with her, but the end goal is the same, "listen to me"

[Terry Wallace]

Hmmm...well, here we go again. I have to ask.... how many here that think putting a horse on the ground is bad...have actually put a horse on the ground?

Did you miss the part where Ruben said "without harming the horse"?

Here is what I know... YES, you can indeed put a horse on the ground, even one person, with two ropes. You can indeed do it slowly and gently causing no harm to the horse. It does NOT put the fear of Man into them when it is done correctly.

What it DOES do...is it causes the horse to adjust its attitude for the better.
What it does do, is calm the horse down. When the horse is let back up, it acts quite differently...and the best part is....it never forgets.

It has been years since I put a horse on the ground. One of the reasons for doing this would be, to calm a very rebellious horse down. "back in the day"...long before NH, Parelli, Lyons, etc....it was a common practice.
There is a right way, and a wrong way to do that. I used to have 2,3 & 4 year old horses brought to me for training...horses that had been on the range their whole life long...untouched by human hands, wild as all get out... one way to get a rearing, striking, young stallion to calm down immediately, would be to put him on the ground. The horse that goes down, is a far cry from the one who gets up.

I see this method as getting the same results as putting a horse in a small stall..like a trailer stall, with solid sides...and then stabilizing that horse by pouring grain (like whole oats, or even corn) all over him, enough to cover the horse and immobilize it, to where you can touch, pet, and run your hands over its head...just like some BLM horses have done to them. I saw this once in a video...it works great...even safer than putting one on the ground.... they cannot strike or kick when they are "swimming in" grain. It brings them down a notch in a hurry. It does not break their spirit or anything like that. What it DOES do... is shows them in a big hurry that they will not be harmed, and they need not retaliate.

This is a type of "domination", however... it sure does calm them down.
Once they have been on the ground, it would be very rare that they would ever need to have it done again. It is that effective.

In the last 20 years, training has come a long way. There are better methods to the same end. People now befriend their horses and respect them enough to take all the time it takes to gain/earn their respect.

Times have changed, but that does not mean that all of the old methods are bad or barbaric, though I am sure some people would view it as such.
Sometimes measures like that do have their place. Don't be too quick to sell them so short, if you have never tried it. JMO

[Jasfino]

I speak from an experience I had with Jasper being thrown to the ground. It was time for a trim and he was still scared of everything,it not having been long after he arrived on our farm. I could handle his feet some but I admit to him not being where he needed to be with it, explained that to the farrier and he decided he would go ahead and try the trim. The farrier came out and Jasper stood decently for the first front but then decided he had enough. The farrier who was also a trainer, decided that he would throw Jasper down. Jasper reared, and fought for what seemed like an eternity, but finally the farrier put him on the ground and then sat on him. He did finish the trim that day but now Jasper was dearly afraid of new people, especially men. I learned about a natural horseman type trainer/farrier that advertised he would work with horses to help get them accustomed to farriers, so I called him out to work with Jasper. Jasper immediately knew what was going on. He associated the new farrier with the other one and that experience he hadnt forgotten and he was a basket case. I watched how the farrier worked him for a few minutes in the roundpen, and after about 10 minutes, he was trimming his feet . Everytime after that for awhile, Jasper would challenge the new farrier but he was learning to trust, not to fear. I talked to him about Jasper's attitude, and he told me that some horses are fighters, and will challenge no matter what. He believed also that Jasper was afraid and felt like he had to fight. After seeing him work with my horse, I knew there were better ways of dealing with horses. If I had found him sooner, Jasper would have been less likely to have had that bad experience, and the fear that accompanied it afterwards of new people. I understand that this technique may work with some horses and they not be left with the baggage that accompanied it but thats not what happened in my case.

[Terry Wallace]

Good grief...why did he throw him down, when a scotch hobble would likely have worked just fine.... ?

See...to me, that is the wrong reason to throw a horse down. Perhaps the farrier was "old school" in his methods....

That is too bad.... a total "negative" experience for your horse & you too.

[Jasfino]

Yeah and I have blamed myself ever since for letting it happen to him in the first place. :cry:

[motorgypsy]

We dropped on the ground Chinook once. The farrier had put on 3.5 shoes and she decided his time was up. There was no way she was going to let him put the last two nails in. So I put a western saddle on her (no fat stirrups), made a loop in a soft, fat leadline, put the lead line loop blow the fetlock of the hoof and half looped it over the horn and held it for quick release. Of course she argued and when she did I kept the foot off the ground but at ground level. Well she got cute and of course fell down onto the soft shavings and when she did I lay on her neck and started scratching her and talking to her. I told the farrier to "hog tie" her so he could finish the hoof which he did, nailed the shoe, did a quick finish on it and untied her. I then gave her one more scratch and let her get up. She hopped right up and I led her out to the huge pasture and let her go. I then looked out at her and said "Darn - I forgot her fly mask". The other people watching said "OH you'll never catch her now." I took her flymask, went out in the pasture, called to her, she came toward me, stopped, got her flymask on and happily went back out to eat and play. She knew she was naughty and deserved it so she had no malice or fear from it since nothing bad happened. But it didn't cure her bad habits either! ;-) ;-) ;-)

There are times when the gentle dropping of the horse and holding them down while scratching and talking to them really is a good idea. Noone else we have has ever needed it but Chinook.

Teaching them to come is a great thing for many reasons including safety. The joining up thing works fine but for permanent coming when you want them we insist that all horses come to us and be led to their eating area before any of them get any food. Even Silken has caught on and is coming to us now to get her leadline on before she gets any food.

Brandy used to be hard to catch so we'd take Chinook into her stall for feeding and run Brandy away from the gate out into the pasture so she couldn't come to the gate to go to her stall for food. After about ten minutes of chasing her I would just turn my back on her and she would come right up to me to be caught. Every now and then she'll get a little attitude but if we stop, back up a bit and turn our back on her she'll come.

One thing some people don't understand though when their horse won't come to them is that many times a more dominant horse want to go to the person and the less dominant one is afraid to go to the person because of this. We saw a man get very angry at his smart, loving, beautiful arabian mare who wouldn't come to get her nice new blanket on. Well there was another mare that was very agressive that would threaten her each time she tried to approach him. He hadn't a clue. If I'd had the money I would have bought her because he didn't deserve her. so watch the other horses and see if there is a reason yours won't come other than they "just don't want to."