spoiled, balky, flighty horses

[Beth Worden]

Just wanted to start a thread on alleged "abused" horses. Ed and I have responded below to Andrea and I wanted to see how many folks here have what they consider to be a formerly abused horse. I gotta tell you, I have got some neglected horses, and many many untrained horses, and I cannot actually state AS A FACT that any one of the 100's of horses in and out of my life were ever beaten or physically thumped on. Maybe some were, but they responed to training and relearned their unacceptable behavior. I hear so many people say their horse was abused, but WAS IT REALLY??? OR - was it never taught to respond in a different manner? I find that particularly with the hot blood horses, pasos, arabs, etc. that just because the horse is flighty or does some dangerous stuff the owner assumes the horse was abused and thus can make all manner of excuses for bad behavior. Of course what I consider abuse it to lock a horse up in a box stall 24x7, so it may just be a matter of perspective.

[Carol Nelson]

Ok...this is a sore subject with me. I have an 18 year old mare, Lacy, who gave me my Devante. The first few months we had her, we couldn't figure out why she played with her tongue and constantly drooled. I sold her about four months after I got her to a nice young Latin gentleman from Santo Domingo who had always wanted Paso Finos...his father had trained the Pasos in the old country but they could never afford them. He took the mare home (he also bought her Pinto colt at her side)...and he subsequently bred her to a QH stallion and she ultimately gave him a filly and I soon ended up with both of them which is another story, but while he had Lacy he had tried to ride her (she was sold to me as an unrideable broodmare). He said she would ride fine in a halter but when you put a bit in her mouth she would sit back, rear up or go over backwards. He said his father had told him that came from too harsh a training and too severe a bit.
So after I bought her back, we had her teeth floated and I asked the dentist on a hunch, "Has her tongue been cut?" He solemnly nodded and told me it appeared her tongue had nearly been severed, and it could have been from a bit incident. (He also mentioned that it could have been because someone tied her tongue to her tail...but I can't even go there...)
She's a sweet mare...but she doesn't like men. She took to me immediately but she is just coming around to my partner. She gives me beautiful babies and she's a wonderful mommy so she's earned her right to stay here forever...but what a sad life she must have had at one point.
I have another mare, an older mare, that came from a farm of a trainer who has been known to have questionable training issues. I have another mare, a young mare who came from a very well-known breeding farm. Both mares have issues...both are excellent and well-behaved under saddle but both act like they're scared to death when you come with the tack. They also act like they are ready to explode at a moment's notice. From fear???
I'm sorry...but I don't want a horse like this...I want a horse like my gelding..who also is well-behaved...but pushes his head into the headstall, and is ready and eager to go.
I want to just add here too that any training which "blows a horse's mind" whether in our breed or in any other breed...to me that is abuse.

[CarolU]

Yeah, I've had a couple I'd say were abused (although it is not seveir abuse), one even came with a video tape of the "training."

The colt, wild from the ranch was snubbed to a railroad tie, sacked breifly with the blanket, then the saddle was slapped on him (the horse was crouched on the ground trying to get away from it). Then his head was tied over to the side and the kid got on. There was no other 'training'...just video of the horse gaiting over everything, bales of hay whatever was in his path...he was scared to death.

This horse took a lot of trust work to get him over this...and he was terrified of the saddle at first.

Diablo was whip loaded into a trailer...he was terrified of whips when I got him. He was also locked in a stall and left, which made him terribly claustrophobic, which he still is.

And Bella was worked a lot with a whip and is also afraid of it. She'll lunge like a crazy horse with it...that's pretty afraid. She also came with training scars on her nose.

[moonrize]

I agree there are some ill mannered, spoiled horses out there whose uncontrollable behavior is often attributed to abuse by past owners WHEN in fact the horse has never been trained correctly to begin with. Not abuse, but poor training and acceptance of ill manners.

On the other hand, there are all types of trainers who do many things that a lot of us would consider abusive. For instance, not handling foals until they're yearlings because they want the horses to be afraid of humans so it has more brio. I think this is abuse, the trainer thinks it gives her winners... :roll:

Abuse is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. There are some people who think I should bring my horses in every night and blanket them, I think they are just fine outside in the weather (I live in Florida, not like it's snowing or anything). Plus some people are willing to accept ill manners from horses - they think it's cute if the horse is all over them, my horses better give me appropriate body space or they'll get a jerk on the halter.

[SandyMM]

"Has her tongue been cut?" He solemnly nodded and told me it appeared her tongue had nearly been severed, and it could have been from a bit incident.

I have seen wo incidents of tongues where it appeared that the tongue had been cut in some manner.... The first was on an old PR Paso stallion - many would recognize the name (not Antares! :) )... the tongue was nearly severed and he had _no_ brakes. I eventually was able to get him in the ring once with a high-arched mouthpiece bit which only contacted thsides of his bars - which gave me a hint of control.

The other case is a mystery. My vet was out yesterday and we were talking about different odd injuries and he mentioned cut tongues....

He said that he has been called out several times for cut tongues on horses that had been lipping their barb wire fences and snagged their tongue on one of the 'spurs'... The cuts couldn't be stitched, bled like crazy, and healed with a distinctive dip in the tongue where the bit would rest... None of these were Pasos.

Just one other possibility when a cut tongue is suspected.....

[CarolU]

Thank you Sally. I think that needed to be said. As Cindy's and my heated discussions have proven many times, there are different definitions of abuse. Many trainers use methods I'd consider abusive. My methods would probably be considered abusive by a PETA extremist, those mean knots, and that big ol stick with the wicked little string.

And there are those who think you can pet a horse into training. And that does work with some horses...but most it just spoils terribly. I always laugh when I get one of these horses in for training. They look at you so shocked when you MAKE them do something. And of course their next reaction is normally a temper tantrum.

I try to draw the line between discomfort and pain. If I can get a horse to move away from discomfort, I don't have to resort to pain. And if I have to use pain, I want it to be as little and as quick as I need to get the response. Then instantly with the release. If you notice, this is how horses train each other.

[Heidi]

Abused? I'm certain that most of the "he's been abused" claims are inaccurate. I feel the "abuse card" is often played to explain bad behavior and in some instances to perhaps make a person feel better about giving-the-horse-a-better-home and not making it behave in an acceptable manner because it was 'abused' and they don't want to create any more bad memories for the horse.

In this instance, for me, abuse means ABUSE. Tied up or contained with no escape and beating the horse or just plain treating the horse in an extremely inhumane manner physically.
For me that is true abuse because it is DELIBERATE.

Most everything else that is chalked up as abuse is actually ignorance. While things done to the horse in ignorance could be construed as abuse and can permanantly injure a horse, I do not think it is as debilitating (mentally for the horse) as deliberate abuse with malicious intent.

Was my Peruvian Paso mare abused? Yes, and no. Ignorance was at fault, not true abuse, though she carried her mental 'scars' with her.
She was misunderstood and because of that, this gentle mare was man-handled; ear-twisted, leg tied, throwed to the ground and eventually wrestled and given tranquilizers for every farrier visit. These visits were so rough on the mare and the people, that eventually her people stopped calling the farrier out.
When she came to me with her misunderstood DSLD, which made it difficult to stand on her damaged legs and especially to hold up a back leg for the farrier and hold her weight on her other damaged leg, we used patience and kindness and never had to do anything other than hold the lead rope and speak quietly to get the job done.
Her lasting mental effects of her previous handling made her extremely shy of needles and she would try to avoid them at all costs. This was most telling when it came time to euthanize her. It had to be done, she had ruptured a DSLD damaged ligament and there was no chance for her. It was the end. Because of her fear/dislike of needles and what they had represented in her life, she struggled and didn't go quietly at all. It was horrible and I wish I had the forethought to consider her dislike of needles and request a humane captive bolt.

Abuse. Every person will consider a different thing to be abuse.
Heidi

[Abejita]

training scars on the nose..let me ask ..do you all think pasos are 'thinner skinned' than other breeds?..Now dont get me wrong I know many pasos have scars. But especially on darker horses do you think they show up easier (white hair?) Juan's nose looks like he had his nose almost cut off if all you look at is the white hair. But these hairs have gotten more in number since I have known him..and I think a majority of it is age and maybe the rabicano gene..he also has white where his halter lays..along his cheeks over his poll..and he never wore an ungodly tight halter..heck for the last 4 years or so he only wears it to get turned out brought in and when he needs to be handled.other than that he is a naked horse..I dont feel any large bumps ..but people look at him and say oh that poor horse..I have others here who are pasture ornaments that a halter will just rub the hair off of them if I leave them on..

[RR]

I agree with Heidi on this one. Like I said about Donte, he was probably trained very poorly or subsequently beaten for not responding to the training he was given.

And like others have said to some abuse could be just throwing a blanket in the air or on the horses body or putting a baggie on the end of a lung whip to get them used to the sounds and feels of something different and "scary". This "old style cowboy" in these parts that I know likes to tie foals to a pole in a puddle of water and watch the baby go down onto its back with its neck twisted and then go and smack the snot out of it to make it stand, that is in my eyes abusive but to him it is "training." BTW, I tried to go untie the baby but he (trainer) wasn't having it and told me to get away.
(I should have smacked the crap outa him)

[stella]

Yes Sheri, its just the halter, a horse only needs to rub some. Alot of my older horses, including one that, due to a physical injury when young, was NEVER trained under saddle, have white marks from wearing halters. I notice some horses get a dark or "naked" spot on the cheek, if they have a snap on the throatlatch of the halter.
Scarring from abusive headgear will also cause some scar tissue under the skin to form, so there will be some palpable thickening felt there, esp across the nose....when only bone should be felt.

[CarolU]

I have an example of 'non abuse' that leaves psychological scars. I bought Buddy as a rescue last year. He had been imprinted and then left pretty much alone. His mother was hard to catch and taught him to be hard to catch. I imagine that catching him became quite problematic and he was chased and manhandled to be caught and haltered. Nothing abusive, but definately left some emotional baggage.

He's now obnoxiously in-your-face easy to catch (loves to play and that is what we've been doing, keeping him learning), but he'll still come out of his skin if you move fast...but he's not afraid of any 'thing'. I think time and a lot of 'sudden movement desensitation' will take out the last bug.

[Brigitte]

Marinero wasn't abused, but he could have been taken care of better
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b14/Brigi25/CDPictures163.jpg
He was just very very underweight, but wasn't abused, sure he's scared of whips but not to the extent that I would say he got beaten by them, he is also very spooky but a friend of mine who knew him from when he was a colt said that he has always been like that. And I just don't like going around saying he got abused, word gets around quickly :-?
Serano also wasn't abused, he has training issues and is very laid back unless you start pushing him too much he will get nervous, my guess is that he has just been handled wrong, but never abused. In my opinion abuse is when they kick or hit the *%$@ out of horses for no good reason and just leave them to starve or something. Getting hit once with a whip for eg. kicking isn't abuse as long as you don't hit them around the head or too much. But it's always difficut to draw the line

[Carol Nelson]

I once saw a colt snubbed up tight to a post, and then repeatedly slapped and whipped with ropes, saddle pads and bags. I'm not talking tossing a saddle pad over his back (which we do here all the time...typical sacking out)...I'm talking beaten with it. That colt was terrified but there was no way he could escape the pounding. I saw no positive outcome from that lesson whatsoever.
I wanted to pull that saddle pad out of that trainer's hands and beat him with it but I probably would've gotten thrown into jail for that. It was my friend's farm so I had to keep my mouth shut, but I noticed she didn't keep that trainer very long.

[Jane Hurl]

While I agree that every person has his or her own idea of what is abuse and what isn't, there ARE minimum standards ... and a colt that is tied in a puddle, left to fall during his struggle and then beaten to get up IS abused. Just because the "cowboy" didn't think so doesn't make it so.

That being said, every horse responds to abuse differently. David's old grinder horse was OBVIOUSLY abused during his training period. His tongue was cut more than half way through, and it is obvious that it was done by a severe bit. And yet, Moka was an awesome cow horse who would give you his all, and then give you some more. As a retired old boy (will be 35 this spring...or is that 36?) he comes running when he sees me heading his direction.

[CarolU]

BTW - in the other thread, when I said "most horses are abused" and forgive it, I should probably clarify what kind of abuse that might be. I don't think most people beat or whip their horses, which most would classify as abuse.

But abuse can also be jerking on the reins for 'punishment', jerking a lot on the lead for 'punishment', tieing the head in a flex or back to the saddle for a long time, losing your temper and whomping on the horse, holding steady pressure on the reins (no release), hanging on with the reins, etc. Most horses experience some or several of these, and most horses forgive it. Horses really are much nicer then most people.

[Wendy]

I have had many people outside the paso breed comment that they think paso are abused because in so many pictures of the breeding stallions are big knots on their noses. There is a perception that is very common among people outside the breed that most gaited horses are forced into gait and that artificail devices are used on pasos. I know and have seen training practices that I believe are abusive (in all breeds) but I think the paso community needs to mindful of how the general public sees our breed and if abusive does take place that the proper authorities need to be notified.

[motorgypsy]

Just like tail cutting there are other training practices that we don't condone because we think there are alternatives. We don't like the cutting of the nose that we have seen in person. We don't like using a bone under the bosal. It also makes the nose raw and the really rough barbada under the chin which again makes the chin bleed. We have an inported mare whose nose was obviously damaged and you can see the scar tissue on the top of it. Our stallion on the other hand has a little indent from his halter being left on. No abuse. When you see scar tissue you know it's a major halter accident or old fashioned what we think of as abusive techniques. We watched a Puerto Rican trainer for more than a year on a daily basis and the owner of the farm wouldn't allow him to sore the horses noses and he still did an excellent job of training, so, it just takes a little longer.

[Brigitte]

Horses really are much nicer then most people.

So true...

[motorgypsy]

Horses are just a lot more honest than people. As far as being "nice" you know they kick and bite the fool out of each other but the difference is - they warn first and if you follow the rules you don't get kicked or bitten. Anyone who deals with a herd knows just how brutal a horse can be but as I said - they have their rules and they follow them and the one who doesn't - pays for the infraction. Survival is at stake and they play for keeps here. They aren't inherently cruel and don't injure one another just for "fun". Their jousting and chasing is for a reason. For the preservation of the herd.

Humans have also made rules that allow society to function well but unfortuantely punishment for those who break the rules is not a sure thing like it is for horses. That may be the real problem with our species. Not the severity of punishment for infraction but the fact that the indidual who breaks the rules many times isn't caught or punished at all. It's called anarchy and noone wins when the rules aren't followed.