largo definition

[Cindy]

It has been mentioned in all of the discussions about largo this and that over the last few days that the 3/2 support system is not mentioned in the rule book as defining largo. This is true. It is not specifically mentioned. However, the definition of the gait precludes it from being anything other than a 3/2 support system. The Paso Fino gait is defined as one gait with three different speeds which can be performed with varying degrees of collection. It is not three seperate gaits, it is one gait, three speeds. Moving from the 3/2 to the 2/1 or any other support system would indicate a change in the gait being performed. Therefore all of the different speeds of the Paso Fino gait must be performed with the 3/2 support. Can they do other gaits? Of course they can. We all know that. But to call the other gaits fino, corto or largo is incorrect. Call them what they are. Calling a singlefot gait largo is just as incorrect as calling a gallop a canter. They are different gaits.

[SandyMM]

100% in agreement....

[paintedhorizon]

What confuses me on that though is the extension involved in largo. Due to this extension and the locomotives of the paso, isn't it possible that one foot may be no the ground only for just a split second, because that foot has farther to go then when not extended?

[paragon]

Thank you Cindy, I am glad you are still here.:D

[Candice Burger]

However, the definition of the gait precludes it from being anything other than a 3/2 support system. The Paso Fino gait is defined as one gait with three different speeds which can be performed with varying degrees of collection. It is not three seperate gaits, it is one gait, three speeds.

:confused: I thought this was obvious, but thanks for putting it in writing again. I thought having an unspoken agreement about paso fino gait by the mere recognition of the paso fino breed was enough. I assumed by the USA registry adopting the paso fino model as defined by the paso fino countries would make the definition of paso fino gait indisputable.

What confuses me on that though is the extension involved in largo. Due to this extension and the locomotives of the paso, isn't it possible that one foot may be no the ground only for just a split second, because that foot has farther to go then when not extended?

Excellent question and what I was hoping for in my original posts! Thank you for pointing out such an important issue about gait. I was hoping we would move away from the obvious to more subtler aspects of the gait.

There has been various discussions about this and several camps of interpretation. For me, a foot should not only demonstrate the gait mechanics but also be weight bearing in reference to the ability to distribute and assimulate concussive forces. As mentioned previously, how the foot lands and then lifts off is also judged when viewing the paso fino gaits.

"Surefootedness" is a trait often used to describe how a paso moves about. The ability to place a foot solidly on the surface, bear weight, also goes to sound mechanics and conformation.

In the show ring the tests for this are the halt, any turn (reverse, serpentine, circle), and the take off from a stand still.

When it comes to sound performance outside the show arena, we look for a horse who can evenly distribute his weight on as many supporting legs as possible. This gives a much smoother ride. It also gives a much sounder ride in the long run by avoiding overloading a particular side of the horse. One way to look at it is: if the horse is not bearing any weight on a foot which barely contacts the ground briefly, where are all those forces due to weight and velocity at? How is the horse staying balanced long enough to begin another series of movments in another foot or feet? While the one foot may not feel any stress, the other parts of the body must compensate.

There are debates about how much load or weight for each foot, if the foot should be flush on the ground before each takeoff. Some feel this is not as critical or necessary ultimately for performance. However, if we are discussing any type of gait or modality, when is this really true? If we are discussing the paso modality of the 3/2 support and the horse does well most of the time but has a period where the supports aren't as clear and tends to occasionally move to a 2/1 support because a isn't landing as it should, then the horse is losing the structure of the modality. Does that make sense? Like a horse with a hop or skip in his gait during the series of footfall movements. Is the hopping acceptable for the one foot? Is it ok to have one foot barely skim the surface before takeoff but the rest perform adequately?

A good largo horse will have the conformation to extend his stride, land and take off squarely, distibuting his weight approporiately, have "sound" mechanics during foot flight, and also show speed. They are true athletes in the breed.

When horses begin to lose the ability fully extend, maintain speed, keep the mechanics and physics of the foot fall then it's up to the handler to recognize where the horse is unable to bear the load properly. Sometimes the horse might need some gymnastic work to supple up a side or develop the muscling. He may always takes off on the right instead of the left, or he breaks a little on a turn or can't perform a gait transition smoothly. It's the same approach training any athlete to be his best.

The same holds true for the other paso gaits as well. Ideally, the integrity of the gait mechanics are maintained first before pursuing other values of the gait. Every discipline practices this philosophy from dressage to reining. Most horses are trained to do a movement correctly before proceeding to a more complicated expression of the gait. The paso fino also benefits from the same approaches.

[paragon]

Thank you for that explanation.

[motorgypsy]

Thanks Cindy. That was most concise and clear and reinforced posts by Stella, Candice and others as to what the paso fino gait is and what the paso fino can do. And these are of course two different things.

Michelle when that happens they have simply switched to singlefoot. And in Stella's post she said that she's seen this happen and that it is incorrect gait as far as paso gaits are concerned (not incorrect horse gait) and we've not really discussed it at any length on the forums before so it's most interesting and educational.

As soon as I can I'm going to get some good videos and hope everyone else will too so we can see when they really do transition to singlefoot. And knowing this we as riders can tell also and back them off a bit to stay in largo if we need to. If not - well - LET'S FLY!!!

[CarolU]

Please define "3/2 support" for me.

Is it 2 alternating 3 feet flat on the ground all the time supporting weight?

Or is it 2 feet all the time with a third foot coming into contact with the ground while the weight is shifted to that foot in the 2-foot support? I guess you'd call this the 'classic' largo picture.

[motorgypsy]

I think what we need to do now is really get some videos of paso finos who are accepted as having very good largos according to their performance in shows and paso finos good judges agree exemplify all three speeds of gait. This is the only way we are REALLY going to know what they are doing.

I know in other breeds there are some gait definitions that are incorrect and of course the use of lateral shows up in ours all the time. Only hard data can really answer our questions. I'm from Missouri. SHOW ME THE GAIT! in slow motion frame by frame with a good camera.

[CarolU]

Agree. I want to SEE acceptable largo.

[motorgypsy]

By the way - I had trusted and knowledgeable pros who prefer to be unnamed look at the video Carol posted of her paso. The pros said the horse is in legitimate paso gait.

This is something else one said regarding only a toe and a flat foot being still 2 foot support as was shown in the video.

QUOTE:
Of course they (hooves) are not flat all the time. Locomotion does not work that way. When you walk you go from your heel to full foot to your toe. Does that mean that you are bearing no weight when you are on your heel or toe? Of course not. You are shifting to the next cycle. In order to be 2/1, one must see air between hoof and ground. If one does not, the hoof is still on the ground.
End QUOTE:

If you really want to do an exercise yourself to see how this works, have another person walk directly in front of you. Do the paso four beat gait which means you walk exactly out of sync with the other person in a count of four. Think about how a video of this would look. You are constantly shifting your weight from your heel to your toe. This is a constantly changing process. Because it is, it will be very difficult to get a still of the flat feet because they are only like that for an instant.

So enough with taking offense and thinking that someone is saying your horse doesn't gait correctly. That is NOT TRUE in most of the cases presented.

Now MY photos were indeed NOT in paso gait. But the videos are of paso gait. Why do the corto videos look more like paso gait? Because they are SLOWER so the video catches the flat instant more easily.

So let's stop all the penco stuff and really figure out how we can tell as a rider when and if our horses do a 2/1 or singlefoot.

[CarolU]

So let's stop all the penco stuff and really figure out how we can tell as a rider when and if our horses do a 2/1 or singlefoot.

As a rider, I don't think you can, since the horse is still in a perfectly even 4-beat gait. Of course, once you get off and look at the video, you will know.

[sporthorse]

has anyone seen those andadura videos of "largo"that may not be registered as paso finos but are perhaps criollos and are in perfect "paso fino" largo gait doing about 25-30 mph (looks to be)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42b88l6JX0o

[motorgypsy]

Don't you LOVE to watch those races. But I suspect they are at least in 2/1 support even though they are very even in cadence so technically it wouldn't be a "classic largo" but one level above the "classic largo". I would LOVE to ride one of those andadura horses!!

[sporthorse]

well you can see that they are in 2/3 if slow the video and as you know the cadence does not lie ask our judges at the shows that pin horses doing fino on the board .

[motorgypsy]

Really!! Well that does prove that you can do a really really fast largo with 3/2 support. What extension they have! I'm just totally in awe of them! Yes I know they would be considered strung out - but for a race - I really couldn't care less:biggrin: