Different kinds of training?

[cowboy ed]

all this talk about spooky horses, horses that are difficult to train, etc., got me thinking about something.
i have worked with some paso fino horses that were trained and ridden for the show ring, that had to be retrained in order to be good trail horses. i dont really know enough about the the techniques that these horses were started with, nor do i know the history of the training, but there were some common traits. head shyness and not wanting to stand still to mount and dismount are the two most common.
i have also worked with some paso fino horses that were basically a clean slate, but were very jumpy and flighty, just by their nature i guess. it usually takes a little longer to get them settled down and under saddle, but it usually goes very well after that.
so, i guess one question i have is, how are the techniques different for starting horses in the show barn, as opposed to the techniques we use for pleasure/trail riding?

[moonrize]

Well Ed, it is my belief that both should be started the same way with lots of ground work.

Some of the bigger show barns do the absolute minimum they have to do to get a horse going around the ring, so there are lots of "holes" in the ground training that show up under saddle. It's easier to manhandle the horse to accept the bridle than to teach it to do it willingly. A good trainer can get on a moving horse... people like me teach the horse to stand next to anything and everything so I can get on LOL.

They want quick and we want correct. They don't care about a lot of the little stuff because they aren't planning on keeping the horse. Not all trainers are like this, but I've certainly seen my share in both the Paso world and the QHs too.

[Boyd R]

That is exactly what I see also.

[GeorgeGuns]

Speaking from a totaly non-pro perspective...
I'm interested by your comment that show or trained horses seem to take a little less to get over these quirks than a 'clean slate' that is naturally spookish. Show horses that have holes in their training still have had to overcome some of their instinctual responses, the method may not be as thorough but it gets the job done so to speak. So by the time you get them it seems like its taking less time. BUT look at the time the horse has spent with the less thorough training. ie: take a 10 year old show horse with say 7 years under saddle, that is a bit head shy, dances for saddling and mounting, fishbuttlips for the bit, and take a 3 year old fresh out of the pasture that knows nuthin. You may spend a week on the 10 year old and a month on the 3 year old getting what you have to get done. BUT the 10 year old sees it this way - it took him 7 years to learn to calmly accept these things, whereas the 3 year old still only took a month!

[Cindy]

Ed, there is no difference in the starting of a horse be it for show or for trail. They still need the same basics.

[Heidi]

Ed, there is no difference in the starting of a horse be it for show or for trail. They still need the same basics.
Ah, but I think the point being brought to light is that sometimes horses are 'briefed' instead of 'trained' properly. That is the impression I am getting from reading some of the responses in this thread and other posts I have read on the subject.

It doesn't just happen in the PF breed, but in many breeds where it behooves the trainers to get rideable (showable, raceable, whateverable)horses out into the public as quickly as possible to make a profit or earn points/ribbons for more profitable selling.

Translates to rush-job. I'd prefer a more thorough approach for all training. One of the MAJOR discrepancies I notice is the Thoroughbred racing industry...ever notice the American TBs must be ponied while their European adversaries are able to walk calmly on their own? It comes down to handling, training and who wants to expend the time/energy.
Heidi

[motorgypsy]

We were fortunate enough to board at a barn with a Puerto Rican paso fino trainer. Since we stayed over there all day long every day help the owner we watched him train. This show trainer used kiss type noises to jazz the horse up when longeing and when in the saddle. He used a bosal and taught the horse to flex instantly and very quickly from side to side and was very proud to show this off. He wanted the horse to respond to the slightes command instantly. He mounted quickly and had the horse move off quickly. It was kind of like the horse was on caffeine and that was what he wanted. He taught them to self collect and spent a great deal of time riding at the corto and largo in and out of trees and down the road and in the arena. He kept the horse focused all the time, focused and busy. He spent a lot of time working on this instant response. I rode a young stallion he trained because he wanted to ride Chinook (who he loved by the way) and he was very pushbutton and well behaved but very hot and superresponsive.

Now we do know he would use a bone under the bosal to get a better headset but the owners at this barn insisted on no soring so he did a good job without it. Not all show trainers are equal and not all train the same. Some use techniques we don't approve of at all and we wouldn't let those trainers near our horses. So the best thing is to be able to watch the trainer work, get videos and talk to people who know the trainers and live near them and visit their barn.

So what do you need to do to switch this supercharged show trained horse to trail mode? Teach it to relax. We used clicker training, did speed events and endurance to teach our nutcase that it was fine to run flat out some times and she caught on and no longer felt the need to flee all the time. Riding with a really mellow horse helps a lot also.

These show horses are very well trained, their training is just more specialized in some ways so you add to it so they have the QH ability to turn hyper mode on and off. The two show mares CindyG trained and Barb Preiss's trainer, John, did some refreshing with , can turn it on and off and needed nothing more than getting to know us to be great on the trail. But remember that most horses selected for showing are already very alert, sensitive and responsive so riding them is like driving a powerful sports car, not a minivan, and a new rider has to get used to how to handle them because they can be very intimidating when you're used to a horse that won't move without kicking on it constantly.

Some paso finos just get too jazzed up with this training and don't do well in the show ring, are born spookheads, and so get sold and their behavior is blamed on show training. It's not the training necessarily - it's the horse's natural disposition and the training combined or it's bad training, or an owner wanting to make the horse into something it isn't - like trying to turn a pleasure horse into a fino.

Five of our 12 paso finos came from a successful career in the show ring and they are all fabulous trail horses and were as easy to convert to trail as the ones who weren't show trained - in fact they were initially more responsive and less likely to wack you legs on trees than the non show trained. They can make wonderful trail horses.

[Kerry W]

Ed, there is no difference in the starting of a horse be it for show or for trail. They still need the same basics.
Ah, but I think the point being brought to light is that sometimes horses are 'briefed' instead of 'trained' properly. That is the impression I am getting from reading some of the responses in this thread and other posts I have read on the subject.

It doesn't just happen in the PF breed, but in many breeds where it behooves the trainers to get rideable (showable, raceable, whateverable)horses out into the public as quickly as possible to make a profit or earn points/ribbons for more profitable selling.

Translates to rush-job. I'd prefer a more thorough approach for all training. One of the MAJOR discrepancies I notice is the Thoroughbred racing industry...ever notice the American TBs must be ponied while their European adversaries are able to walk calmly on their own? It comes down to handling, training and who wants to expend the time/energy.
Heidi

You need to submit that to Merriam-Webster..I LIKE IT!! :lol:

[motorgypsy]

The Puerto Rican trainer did a bit of longeing before riding but didn't do a lot of ground work. But his horses did behave on the ground - they were just hyper.

[Abejita]

well..in my limited experience with 'show' horses..I have a mare here who was originally sent out for training knowing she was NOT going to be shown..brought her home after 3 months and she did great..responsive, pretty sane ( a few things bothered her ..sounds above her head like a branch hitting my helmet and traffic.But not anything I couldnt handle..big Traffic (large trucks)would be somewhat dangerous) relaxed for her..she was also young and inexperienced.Decided about a year and a half later to show her for a year because she was for sale..Now she is super sensitive, does not want to walk ,feels just about out of control and acts like she HAS to work HARD all the time. Now some say this is just teh Paso ..but this is not how this mare used to be.The other show filly also doesnt want to walk and just will not relax..So in thi scase I feel these two horses were taught that under saddle meant 'always on' I want a horse I have to ask to fire up..not always ask to stay calm..

[motorgypsy]

That's what a QH owner told me - I want an on/off switch on my horse.

Well we have it now and once we figured out how to teach it to the first one, the rest were easier.

But the others also had a different trainer. The first one was latin trained by one of the best and she is fabulously well trained but was a nutcase. The others had US born, non latin trainers and were more balanced in their behavior from the beginning.

So you can get her back in the relaxed mode again. She just doesn't know what you want. We used clicker training with Chinook to teach a flat, head down, relaxed walk. Three steps, click, treat from the saddle. Now she can do her QH walk any time we ask for it.

[Abejita]

I think I can re teach the one..the other may take someone with more consistant time and skills than I have.

[finolover]

show trainers work 8 to 12 horses in a day, and don't have time to teach the horse to relax..i think that's all that has been wrong with Quito !!!
that and his gran daddy Hilachas............
and quito was trained and retrained by show Trainers.....jeremy is taking the time to teach relaxing :D

[Jasfino]

Earl is onto something I think. Relaxation is the key.

[motorgypsy]

Our Hilachas mare is a live wire and was extremely difficult on the ground but a fabulous riding mare.

[Cindy]

OK, first of all, there are just as many non-show trainers who rush the training of the horses in order to get them sold. Secondly, show horses are trained in a relaxed manner. They must be able to relax AND turn it on when asked. If they cannot do this, they will not have much of a show career. Third, if you have sent a horse to a trainer that was a perfectly relaxed and well trained animal before the trainer got it and is a hyper lunatic after the trainer has "trained" it, you have most likely run into a bad trainer. I don't care what was the purpose of the training of the horse. Please notice that I said "most likely" as these are live animals and not machines so there are many factors involved.

The bottom lines is that there are many trainers in this world, some are good and some are not so good. I have no doubt that the percentage of good to not so good has no relevence whatsoever to what the end result of the training is supposed to be. In this particular breed, one would be hard pressed to find a trainer who does not show at all. I cannot even name a trainer that I know of who trains solely Paso Fino horses who does not show to some extent or another. And among those there are traners who are good trainers and who turn out good riding horses and all the way to the other extreme that being trainers who should be working at McDonald's in order to gives some horses a better life. However, it has nothing to do with whether or not they train for show or for trail. Training is training. I can guarantee you that the majority of my show horses will do just as well or better than any other so called trail horse on the trail. In fact, the better the show horse they are, the better they are on the trail. It has to do with the quality of the animal. The same qualities are needed to be a good, dependable horse.

[finolover]

after the birth imprinting, i think the next one on one contact is at weaning...then they are quickly taught to lead....put out to pasture until they are 24 to 28 months old..then brought up to the trainer for a qiuck sacking out, mounted and rode on a bosal...hard every day, up to a heavy sweat.........you have to think about the difference in cost between pasture boarding and in the stall , under saddle training plus the number of horses a trainer can work with in a day.......they don't have time for perrelli games....,.

i had quito well versed in the desensitizing that i could do, he was a pull away horse so i could'nt sack him out with the big noisey items, jeremy
has and quito has a different attitude in the corral.... :lol:

[finolover]

the better the show horse they are, the better they are on the trail.

i think the majorityof top show horses have never seen a trail, other than a short manicured path between the barns or around the ranch...they are too valuable to take out on a real trail, with streams,rocks, diverse invironment :?:

[Cindy]

Earl, as I said, there are good trainers and there are not so good trainers. Good trainers take the time to do the proper ground work with a horse. They also train all horses the same regardless of their value. Every day I take on the trail $5,000, $10,000, $20,000 and $50,000 horses. And occasionally ones that are worth much more than that. They all go on the same trail and it is not a path between the barns. I also know many trainers who routinely train horses that are worth more than my house and I have worked with and learned from them. Their horses are trained on the trails and treated much like, well, horses. But then again, they are trainers that fall into the "good trainer" category.

[Fuego]

I think the main difference is the trainer theirselves, regardless of the intended use of the horse.

Some show trainers' only goal is to have the horse able to gait around the ring in the circle with maximum animation. The training starts and stops there. Other show trainers take the time to train the WHOLE horse. They put in the basics that all horses should have and then progress on to the discipline specific training.

Same goes for trail horse trainers. Some only care about a calm desensitized horse and neglect many other ares of the training. Others train the basics first then on to use specific training.

Some trainers take the time to modify their techniques/methods to each horse's individual temperment and needs, while other trainers only know and use one method for all horses ( horses that aren't receptive to that particular trainers 'one way method' are usually returned to the owners as crazy, defective, or untrainable horses). Again, I don't think it's dicspline specific, but trainer specific.

I've experienced both type of 'retired' show horses. Ones that had to be basically started over from the ground up to ones that readily accepted their new life as a trail horse with minimum effort.

Many people probably ASSUME a seasoned retired show horse is a well experienced and well trained horse, especially if it was a successful ( many are, many are not). But some of these horses have never seen or done anything other then gait in a circle in their home arena or at the shows. You can't expect a horse to know things it was never exposed to / trained for.

A well started young horse w/ only 90 days under saddle can be better trained then a retired show horse with years of show experience. Just as a well trained show horse can easily be the best behaved trail horse on the trail. It simply depends on who is handling and training the horses.

[Pam M]

I'm so glad I found a good trainer! :D But how much of it isn't the training but the handling after the training? Speaking for myself, I'm high-strung, have difficulty focusing and jump like a cat at the littlest things. I've always got 50 things on my mind and never get enough sleep. I'm probably a good candidate for ritalin and I should probably not be around horses because I'll make them too nervous! But my horses are used to me. Maybe my personality does make them a little jumpier but they're all still fantastic under saddle...if you know their quirks. Pull back too hard and too long on my QH gelding and he'll dump you. There's no discussion, he'll just dump you but then he'll wait for you to get back on. Kick too hard on my mustang and he'll stand there. There is no budging him until he decides you're going to be nicer. My paso is still too green to know what her quirks will be. But they are good trail horses. Not perfect but neither am I! And 2 of the 3 had excellent trainers so I certainly can't place blame.

[PattiB]

I'm with Cindy. My show horses are ridden on the trails and are very good. It's better for their minds and mine if we aren't going around and around in circles. Crossing water, logs etc. makes them more balanced and aware of their feet. I do a lot of walking when I train, if they can't do it at the walk their not going to do it at a corto or largo. Standing still for mounting is very important whether they are show horses or trail, safety for the owners sakes.

[finolover]

Standing still for mounting is very important whether they are show horses or trail, safety for the owners sakes.

woohooo, haloooooooya.....amen :lol:

[finolover]

i've got a 26 second video clip of quito's standing still acomplishments i wish i could post.......the change in him is awesome 8-)

[motorgypsy]

By the way Cindy is in the mountains. I hear her driveway is a real challenge!!!

Here are two of our show trained mares. One adapted quite easily, the other took a lot of work but it was the despooking, not the actually knowledge of cues, responsiveness, etc. that was her problem. Former show horses can make fabulous trail horses. Really badly behaved show horses probably won't be good trail horses either.

parades

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/paradeTR2005.jpg

largo race

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hunter pace - 8 miles in the mountains on very rugged trails

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/050805-d_190-c.jpg

our show trained stallion who hadn't been ridden in months being ridden next to a pasture full of mares showing off

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/sultanps1.jpg

[Brigitte]

Relaxation IS the key. Mar is difficult to get into a walk, and when horses go by he wants to keep up with them. And will stand still to mount, but once you swing your leg over he turns and will jump sideways and just want to go go go and will calm down after 10 seconds. Pushing horses ain't good :-?

[diswick]

I have had showhorses (mostly Arabians, and Saddlebreds, not PasoFinos) for years. Horses who did very well at the shows. We always would ride them on trails too, it was R&R for the horses. We rode at a walk or a trot mostly, sometimes a short canter here or there, but we also would stop and let the horses munch on grass and just relax. It made for much better riding horses than those who just got ridden to train for show.

I am thinking that a horse should be taught to ride down the trail before it is readied for show, it gets the horse fit and also makes for a much more unflappable horse, one who can be ridden in the ring easily, no matter what else is going on. I want to feel safe on a horse, first and foremost, no matter where I am riding.

[CarolU]

You know there are a LOT of good points in all these posts. I think any horse's training depends on the quality of the trainer, be it for show or trail. I agree that many show horses have HUGE holes in their training to get them in the arena (I mean why train them to do creek crossings, drag logs, or carry saddlebags?). But, I have also seen many trail horses not trained to stand for the removal of a jacket, or the sound of velcro.

Show horse benefit from being ridden on trails - and I know many trainers who do so...of course those 'trails' are typically NOT the kind of trails I see CTR and Endurance horses riden on - and I myself won't ride on a rocky trail with lots of leg hazards for several weeks before a point show. I have a lot of money invested in showing and going and can't afford an injured horse.

I also know what Ed is talking about though. I have seen show 'championss' that take handlers to hold the horse while the trainer gets on. Standing still for mounting to me is very basic training.

But I also think it is important NOT to generalize too much. There are good show/trail trainers. The important thing for people who are sending their horse for training is to LOOK at the horses the trainer has trained, see if it's how they want their horse trained, TALK to the trainer about their expectations, what they want to use the horse for and their own riding abilities. It doesn't make sense to send a horse you want for trail riding to a show horse trainer, anymore then it makes sense to send a show horse to trail horse trainer UNLESS the trainer trains both types.

Also remember that ANYBODY can call themselves a trainer. In our breed, some people assume it is their birthright, like an in-born ability. That's why it's a good idea to LOOK and TALK.

[Terry Wallace]

Earl..very good descritption of "total domination" training. After all.. just how much time can a trainer give to 12 horses a day.... how much QUALITY time??? Too many young horses are rushed and pushed...
Brought in from pasture, sacked out, snubbed up to a post, mounted, ridden...practically scared half to death in the process.... this is the type of
"Training" you need to steer clear of.

When I first got into this breed, I watched a video of "Paso Fino training" by a person named Jaime Escudero. It is one of the very best examples I've ever seen of total domination training..... If you treat a horse in the way he does.... you can expect the horse to fear you, and hate everything about you.... this type of "training" has been the near demise of many Paso Finos. If I were a horse, treated in such a manner, you can bet I'd do everything possible to get rid of my rider.... I'd RUN from him....not ever TO him....

To me, the films are just disgusting...I'd never want a horse started in such a manner. What it really comes down to IS the trainer and the methods they use. Unfortunately....not all trainers ARE trainers, not all have a deep regard for the welfare of the horse and its future riders.
One thing is for certain...horses do not lie...horses are quite good at "ratting out" their trainers...and this is something that few people that are new to horses have any idea of. When you see horses that are say, tied to a rail, by themselves... and the "trainer" approaches them, and as soon as the horses see the person, they begin to fret, get nervous, lips start to flapping, eyes are wide, horses move about keeping their eye on the trainer..... that is a horse ratting out a trainer...pay attention to this....it almost always indicates domination training. On the flip side...when you see horses tied to a rail, relaxing and just calmly standing there, and they continue to do so as their trainer approaches, you can be reasonably assured those horses are well treated...because they ACT like they are....quite the opposite of domination trained horses.

[Jasfino]

I think the main goal of training should be communication with the horse that builds its confidence through relaxation and trust. It doesnt take a genuis to train a horse but it does take a considerable amount of time, and patience and therein lies the key. Out of all the trainers in my area, there is only one that I would trust with my horse, not to say that he is the only one who could get the job done, but to me my horse is like a child, and I would be very particular with whom I left my child with. I do think that horse savy is alot of times not "learned" to a certain degree, but is more sensitivity to the horse and its nature. Thats what seperates the good trainers from the great ones.

[Carol Nelson]

Terry, well put!!!
http://www.equineneigh-borhood.com/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_congrats.gif

[Celtic34]

Im more of a lurker on the site then a poster but I had to reply to this topic. I took my horse to a trainer and it was the worst mistake I ever made in my life. He could be hot when you asked him for it, but he was a laid back sweety. The trainer had him for a couple of months as she said he would make a great show horse and like a fool I believed her. Now he is so sensitive that when you get on him he automatically thinks you wanna get up and go and keep going. Before he use to walk when you asked him to and would corto when you asked him to. Now he doesnt know what walk means. I rode him a training jaquima no bit, loose reins. She got him and put a bit in his mouth a luna bit I think its called with the rollers in the center piece. When he would screw up she disciplined him by flexing him and making him back up at 90 mph, if he wouldnt back up with her on his back, she would get off and ram the bit into his mouth to get him to back up. He threw a fit in the show ring and she got off and told me she had made a mistake, he wasnt a show horse after all. Thank the gods I have a really good friend who has helped me out a great deal on working with my horse and in time we hope to get him back to where he was before the so called "pro"got her hands on him. I know not all trainers are like the one I had (thank god) but I would have a very hard time trusting someone again who says there a pro. I watched her train other horses and what she did to mine was mild compared to what she put the others thru. Its a shame that anyone can slap on that title "Pro Trainer".

[Jasfino]

It is a shame what happened to your horse. Thats why I decided to train my gelding myself. I hope your boy can learn to relax again.