Working lines? [Archive] - American Paso Finos.com Forums

CarolU

02-11-2008, 11:55 PM

Dave Jones, from his article Meeting the Legends, Resorte 3, Hilaches and More.

"After Don Pedro checked his papers, he told us that nearly all of the Resorte III offsprings' owners had moved away, died or had been kidnapped by aliens. We did look at a couple of terrible geldings that were supposed to be by Resorte III.
Pedro Nel Arango did happen to own La Guala, the mother of Resorte III. She was bred to his stallion Relicario. This old mare had very good hindquarters and rear legs were Resorte's biggest problem, having the condition called "camped out." I assumed therefore, that this problem came from his sire.
Let me digress however. I'm a real "bug" about conformation and I learned most about this from my old boss, Charles G. Araujo. When I see a horse with conformation problems, I check out his bad points before looking for the good ones.
Resorte III was badly camped out behind. When ridden, he'd prance on those back legs rather than stand still. He passed this fault on. During our trip, I saw a few very good looking Resorte III offspring, but they all had this problem. In a show ring, they "camped out." When Resorte III was an old horse, he became "string halted", and I'm sure it came from this rear end weakness. More about this later though.
Personally, I'd never use Resorte III as a breeding stallion, no matter how great a reputation he had, for you'd only be breeding future problems. Sometimes, a horse will have a fault and not reproduce it, but it's bound to crop up somewhere down the line. Our goal was to produce top conformation Pasos with natural gait. Few Colombian show horses we'd seen fit our criteria. Mahoma did though; there was no better Colombian Paso Fino than Mahoma.
From what I'd seen, most of the show horses were made-over trotters. Whe we were there, Don Danilo was the top show horse. He was performing at many big horse shows but was too good to be judged, so he was "out of competition." But we saw Don Danilo ridden bareback, with just a halter on his head, and he trotted!
When we looked at horses to buy, we wanted to see them do the Paso gait in the pasture or on a loose lead rope. Only those got my approval. We ended up with some trotters, but they were shipping mix-ups. With all of the nefarious dealings that went on after my inspections, there had to be a few mistakes.
By and large, the horses I put at the top of my lists were not show horses.They were the "transportation Pasos" in use every day in the Andes mountains. The conformation had to be good or they'd break down. The gait had to be good, for they were ridden comfortable over long distances every day. They also had to be very sure-footed to survive."

That's where I got the idea from, the guy who imported them.

Pasofinoguy

02-12-2008, 02:34 AM

Athena and Nemi both have lots of que tal in there lines including Dahae que tal a 3 time national champion fino mare. Athena also has Yoconda and Lunares. Nemi carries Baron que tal, Fada que tal and Cazador que tal son of Sin Verguenza,

Anyone have pics of these horses i lost mine.

CarolU

02-12-2008, 02:42 AM

Adam, this article has pictures of Baron and Yocunda, although I don't see Baron's picture here. I have the picture of Baron working cows without headgear. I thought I had it uploaded, but can't get to my pictures right now.
http://www.pasodefe.com/Breed/saddlea.htm

SandyMM

02-12-2008, 02:42 AM

And yet.... Colin Phipps - in another article pointed out to Dave Jones that Hilachas was 'trotting'/trocha and Dave Jones couldn't tell... I know from personal experience - sorry if that offends anybody - not - that a number of que tal horses had gait 'issues' and were one of the reasons the 'all matching or none' shoe rule was introduced...

Cindy - I'll bet you can name a few of the first que tals that were drop dead gorgeous and couldn't put four in a row on the ground evenly if their lives depended on it - nor were they remotely smooth-gaited...

I rode a que tal stallion for years - he was handsome, gentle natured, and would go to hockey sticks and back for me over, under, or through anything... but he had an exceptionally small range of smooth gait.

PS...Why would anyone want to come to this BB...offer up facts...just to be stepped on by "those who were around at the time"?
And my question is - why would you _not_ believe a number of people who were there and saw many of these horses in person.... many times...

Clearly Dave Jones' writings have discrepancies... not that they aren't interesting reading, but if he said somewhere they valued trocha over paso fino - that isn't what he said at other times in other writings...

CarolU

02-12-2008, 02:54 AM

Sandy, Dave said they ended up with some trotters in this article, even though they tried to avoid it.

To answer your question though, for those of us who weren't raised in this breed, we only have the written histories from the people who imported the horses to learn from where they came. If they don't know where they bought the horses, how are we to know their accounting isn't true? I do believe Dave Jones knew horses and knew what he was buying. He didn't mention a 'range of gait' Paso Fino, but bought the Largo mares he rode there.

Wasn't Coral bred by a man who bred and trained horses for Bullfighting? Coral is known for his range-of-gait.

motorgypsy

02-12-2008, 02:54 AM

I would assume since his name is LaCe that he was bred by La Hood and Figueroa??? Barb??

interesting comment about Resorte III being camped out

http://www.gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/RearEnds/CampedOut.gif

because this flaw doesn't seem to be that common in the paso finos I've seen.

Much more common is sickle hocked

http://www.gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/RearEnds/sickle.gif

and cow hocked

http://www.gaitedhorses.net/ConformationLesson/RearEnds/Rear1.gif

I own a Resorte III mare. She is still sound at age 25 but she does have some exaggerated hock action. She's not camped out. She's a great grandaughter by way of Perfume II and Perfume and imported from Colombia.

Considering the fact that automobiles haven't been around for very many years I imagine most of our horses are from "working" lines - some just more recent than others. Which goes to show that working lines can also succeed in the show ring as both Coral and Favorito as well as many others have proven and I hope will continue to prove.

SandyMM

02-12-2008, 03:38 AM

I would assume since his name is LaCe that he was bred by La Hood and Figueroa???
Who is this referring to?

motorgypsy

02-12-2008, 03:39 AM

Coral LaCe - someone wanted to know who bred him.

SandyMM

02-12-2008, 04:03 AM

Coral LaCe - someone wanted to know who bred him.

Wasn't Coral bred by a man who bred and trained horses for Bullfighting
Correct - in Colombia.

Just to make it perfectly clear - George LaHood did _not_ breed Coral LaCE. LaCE is a farm name added to all the horses from a particular farm whether born and bred there, purchased in the States, or imported (Coral LaCE was imported and no close relation to any other LaCE horse).

I just completed a database of 181 Coral LaCE offspring and he never had a PFHA registered offspring who carried the LaCE farm name. He was bred to Rincona LaCE twice to produce foals in 1980 and 1981.

Here's the accurate information which has been around for years...

www.corallace.com (go to 'Memories')

or

http://www.lacaballerizapasofinos.com/corallace.html

and for some first hand encounters and other info....

http://www.lacaballerizapasofinos.com/corallace-readmore.html

motorgypsy

02-12-2008, 04:40 AM

Thanks Sandy.

I keep thinking registered cat names instead of horse. If the cattery name came first before the cat name they bred the cat. If it came after the name, they bought the cat. Moon Shadow Meteora - Moon Shadow cattery bred the cat. Meteora of MoonShadow, Moon Shadow cattery bought the cat. Ben Mar Morning Star of Moon Shadow was bred by Ben Mar and bought and shown by Moon Shadow.

I wish the paso fino registry would do this. It would make it so much easier to figure out where a horse came from. Didn't they make a change recently that you can't use a farm name on a registration unless you own the farm and bred the paso fino??

SandyMM

02-12-2008, 03:20 PM

Didn't they make a change recently that you can't use a farm name on a registration unless you own the farm and bred the paso fino??
On the surface that seems like a good idea. But what happens if you are paying off a mare bred to a stallion owned by the 'owner of record' of the mare? It is technically their breeding...

Unfortunately, at one point, people thought they could just add a famous farm name to their horses' names....

motorgypsy

02-12-2008, 05:19 PM

I would assume that the mare would have the farm name of the person who owned her mother and bred her. And I would guess this would still apply to a belly lease since the owner of the mare would still have the final word on whether or not this mare could be bred to this stallion as desired by the person leasing her belly. So she would have the mare owner's farm name rather than the farm name of the one who did the lease. But that could be changed I'm sure to let the person who leased the belly use their farm name for the foal??? Good question.

CarolU

02-12-2008, 05:46 PM

I believe you can add a farm name, but it is not a protected name (anyone else can use it) unless you register it as a farm name.

StephB

02-20-2008, 12:22 PM

Not to start anything and I will not respond any more to this thread but the Coral AND the Favorito that I knew were both show horses.

Coral maybe. I never saw him enough to comment. Favorito was a horse that was shown occasionally. He wasn't a show horse.

Kerry W

02-20-2008, 01:18 PM

Coral maybe. I never saw him enough to comment. Favorito was a horse that was shown occasionally. He wasn't a show horse.

What was Favorito then? I know he produced show horses, he was on the Top Ten Sire's list four years in a row...and I know he was shown more than a few times (including Nationals), in pointed classes.

StephB

02-20-2008, 01:37 PM

Kerry W

02-20-2008, 02:05 PM

Love to hear your definition of a show horse...so we're all on the same page. At what point does a horse that is shown, become a "show horse"?

StephB

02-20-2008, 02:36 PM

Love to hear your definition of a show horse...so we're all on the same page. At what point does a horse that is shown, become a "show horse"?

LOL, ok. A horse that's actively campaigned? Why would a horse that's shown only a few times a year be a show horse when some of these guys are out at every show? I futzed around with the whole show scene for awhile, showing a few times a year, but I never considered myself show people. It was something I did for fun.
Now, if you want to want to talk about Favorito kids, that's another story. Many of them were show horses and were campaigned. Especia MeLa was shown a lot. Favorito's son Clasico went to more shows than I remember Favorito going to. I considered him a show horse since he wasn't used much for anything else.
So why the hostility? I met Favorito in '84 and saw him nearly everyday for many years. I cleaned his stall, I fed him his grain, and I even got to ride him - rides I will never forget. I can count on one hand the number of times I saw him shown. If Stella didn't have dial-up, she would say the same thing.

StephB

02-20-2008, 02:49 PM

BTW, maybe you still consider that a show horse so I won't argue semantics anymore. I’m just telling you my experiences with him. His owner never considered him a show horse and neither did I.

SandyMM

02-20-2008, 02:53 PM

Coral maybe. I never saw him enough to comment. Favorito was a horse that was shown occasionally. He wasn't a show horse.
"Show horse" now and "show horse" then don't have precisely the same meaning.... There were _far_ more owner/trainer/riders then than now and far _fewer_ professionally trained and shown Pasos... in this country. Those owner/trainer/riders often did a lot more with their horses than 'just' show them. I would say a lot of Pasos 'back then' were 'horses who were shown'.... not 'just' show horses....

As to Coral LaCE himself - from an unabashed fan.... ;):

1972 Grand National Champion Performance Horse
(At this time the Grand National Champion in each division was a _true_ Grand National Champion - and had to be in the the top 2 or 3 to be allowed to compete in the championship class and had to compete against the top winners of all classes in his/her fino, performance, or pleasure (including mares, stallions, schooling, etc.) to win the title)

Paso Fino Hall of Fame - first inductee into the Hall of Fame

13 times Top Ten Sires - including #1 in 1980
*#2 Stallion in the U.S.A in general ranking of the best stallions according to information produced by the Statistics Study of the Stallions by Mario Gomez Caballero and based on research information from the official PFHA Stud Book.
*10th in the nation in stallions with the most grand-offspring - indicating the number of his sons and daughters who went on to reproduce

His offspring have won national titles in:
Performance
Pleasure
Driving
Versatility
Largo Race
as well as many state/regional championships.

Coral LaCEe was an extremely agile and versatile stallion with an unusually wide range of accurate gait who responded instantly to every cue given him per a description by his last owner - Barb Preiss....

Probably Coral's greatest contribution was in the breeding shed as a prepotent sire where he consistently passed on range of accurate gait, disposition, size, and agility/versatility. Although many of his offspring went on to win in the show ring, the really amazing thing is that so many of them did so with amateur owner/rider/trainers even as the professional trainers became more common ... a testament to the willingness and natural gait of these horses.

Now many of his grand-offspring are also making their mark - both in and out of the show ring as successful pleasure competitors, largo racers, endurance and competitive trail horses... as well as highly prized personal mounts for owners who use them for a wide range of activities - in and out of the show ring.

As to 'working lines' - the Coral-breds 'work' for a living - in or out of the ring....

More about Coral LaCE:
http://www.lacaballerizapasofinos.com/corallace.html

*Studies done around the time of his induction into the Hall of Fame - not sure of the exact dates

CarolU

02-20-2008, 02:55 PM

I don't consider a horse that is ridden in an arena occasionally a "show horse" anymore then I consider a horse that is ridden down a trail a "trail horse." In our breed a "show horse" has a very quick step and tight frame, their head is up and they carry themselves in a very showy way. Where a trail horse has a lower step and relaxed frame. I've been on some pretty nasty trails with both types and as pretty as a horse might be, it is not good to see any horse with their head up, gaiting over sharp rocks and logs along steep ledges.

I think the definition of a "show horse" changed in our breed in the 80's, so even though the early imports to our country were shown and won all the Championships, they were the only horses in the arena at time. I doubt many would do well in today's arena with most judges.

It's OK to have different 'types' of horses. Even when a lot of it is training vs. breeding, most of it is breeding. There is a reason people who want a show horse pay $3K to breed to a Champion show horse instead of $500 to someone's backyard stallion.

Cindy

02-20-2008, 02:58 PM

Coral maybe. I never saw him enough to comment. Favorito was a horse that was shown occasionally. He wasn't a show horse.

That's very odd because I saw him a bunch of times and they were all at shows. In fact, I just recently watched a video of a Performance class at the 1983 National show and he was in it. As was Coral. But, my mistake. Sorry. :rolleyes:

paintedhorizon

02-20-2008, 03:05 PM

Here's what Stella said on the "que tal" post about Favorito
including "my heart," Favorito que tal, who btw was not primarily a showhorse

Cindy

02-20-2008, 03:05 PM

Sure. He produced a lot of babies that were shown including two that I owned. I showed them a few times a year. I qualified for Nationals. Were they show horses? Nope. They were my trail horses that I occasionally showed - mostly bella forma, trail and versatility. I won with them too, but that still doesn't make them show horses.
Favorito was the same thing. I saw him shown maybe 3-4 times a year and he was used in exhibitions sometimes. Mostly he just hung around the farm.

Steph, yes, they were show horses. As was my mare that I did the same thing with every year. If we went to three regional shows that was a lot and then we went to the National show. And won there I might add. So does that mean that my mare who was ridden 300 days a year bareback on trails, in the river, to the McDonalds because I was too young to drive was not a show horse? I guess those multi-National Championships did not mean anything then.

paintedhorizon

02-20-2008, 03:10 PM

Cindy, is there anyway possible I could get a copy of this video? I'd love ot have one! I'll pay for it!
That's very odd because I saw him a bunch of times and they were all at shows. In fact, I just recently watched a video of a Performance class at the 1983 National show and he was in it. As was Coral. But, my mistake. Sorry. :rolleyes:

I think what we are all missing here is what some people consider a show horse and what some people consider a working horse.

Just because a horse is shown in a lot of shows, and wins, does not necessarily mean it is a show horse. To me, from all that I have learned from Stella, Favorito was a working horse that also showed, and showed very well! A horse that was like an all around paso fino! He could largo his butt off, he loved trail riding, he loved working or doing anything for Stella. And in the shows, he loved to show off for the crowd and beat out the other stallions. To show he WAS the best. And he was. But no, he was not a show horse, he was a working horse that also showed and was awesome at it.

StephB

02-20-2008, 03:11 PM

"Show horse" now and "show horse" then don't have precisely the same meaning.... There were _far_ more owner/trainer/riders then than now and far _fewer_ professionally trained and shown Pasos... in this country. Those owner/trainer/riders often did a lot more with their horses than 'just' show them. I would say a lot of Pasos 'back then' were 'horses who were shown'.... not 'just' show horses....

Thanks Sandy, that was actually what I was trying to get at. Oh, and “Hi!” again. Shows were few and far between up North where I was. I still remember taking my little mare to hunter/jumper shows and doing pony hunter over fences because there were so few Paso shows. (I wish I had a dime for every time I heard, “What’s a Passer Feener?” )
I used to do team-penning on my Hilaches granddaughter who really was the more showy of the horses I owned. I did show her performance when the occasion arose. I qualified for Nationals and never went.
My horses spent the rest of the time on the trails.
There were quite a few Paso shows if you had the inclination to drive to them. I didn’t. Others did. The people who campaigned a lot and drove all those distances had (to me) “show horses.”

paintedhorizon

02-20-2008, 03:12 PM

Now see, in my OPINION, this mare you talk about here is a working horse that also shows and does very well, just like Favorito.

A show horse, to me, again, my opinion, is a horse that shows all the time, or the majority of the time.

Steph, yes, they were show horses. As was my mare that I did the same thing with every year. If we went to three regional shows that was a lot and then we went to the National show. And won there I might add. So does that mean that my mare who was ridden 300 days a year bareback on trails, in the river, to the McDonalds because I was too young to drive was not a show horse? I guess those multi-National Championships did not mean anything then.

Cindy

02-20-2008, 03:23 PM

PH, that's what Paso Finos do. Then and now. They are riding horses. Even the ones that show. But there is one thing that I am a bit confused about. Please someone define the term "working" horse. Do you mean that they pull a plow? Drive cattle? Pull a carriage to town? Please define for me the term "working" horse because to me a "working" horse is a horse who makes it living being productive at something. It has a job that it performs every day in order to earn income for it's owner. I don't think, however, that this is what you people are refering to as I am pretty darn sure that Stella did not earn her living by working Fav every day. And I am not refering to selling breedings. The definition of a show horse is fairly simple. It is a horse that shows. If you want to elaborate, a horse that shows successfully. But apparently you all are using some other definition for a show horse and I am not exactly sure what that definition is either I guess.

So here is how I see it. A horse that shows is not a show horse. A working horse does no work but one can call it that anyway but one must be very sure to NOT call it a show horse even though it shows successfully several times a year. What I am NOT sure of is who we can call a show horse? I see that we can call any horse who does not reside at a show a working horse so I think I am clear on that one now though I still do not understand exactly how the title came to be. And my conclusion is that there are no show horses as horses that show cannot be called this but must be called working horses if they have ever been ridden outside the show ring so all Paso Finos that I personally have ver known and/or ridden are working horses. Unless someone can please definie for me differently. Thanks.

paintedhorizon

02-20-2008, 03:28 PM

I see your point and source of confusion! LOL I am the same! I explained my definition of a show horse.

To me, again, my opinion, a working horse is a horse that can be ridden easily on trails, without freaking out at every living thing, doesn't live it's life only riding in the ring. Some show horses would freak out if taken outside their "comfort" zone.

But you are entirely correct Cindy! In the "old" days, yes, a working horse is a horse that had to DO something to "make a living". But these days, horses are not needed because of automobiles and tractors. So the definition of a "working" horse has to be modified. I'm curious as to what others think of this definition too.

I have emailed Stella so she can come post as well. I talked to her about this and she says Favorito was not a show horse.

StephB

02-20-2008, 03:29 PM

That's very odd because I saw him a bunch of times and they were all at shows. In fact, I just recently watched a video of a Performance class at the 1983 National show and he was in it. As was Coral. But, my mistake. Sorry. :rolleyes:

Oh come on, now you are just being argumentative. I NEVER said he wasn't shown. I said he was shown very little compared to other horses that were being campaigned back then. But I actually knew the horse and saw him more than 3 times, so what do I know. :rolleyes: yourself.

SandyMM

02-20-2008, 03:32 PM

There was a definite change in the early 80s - and I, for one, can't say it was all for the better - in spite of many opinions to the contrary. Also - there were many _excellent_ Pasos in the rings pre_1980. The fact that many might not place in today's show ring is the result of many influences and changes intended to favor a different style of Paso in the ring.

While I may admire individual current horses for their particular qualities, I personally prefer the attitude and gait of my favorite Pasos in the pre-80s...

SandyMM

02-20-2008, 03:41 PM

Please someone define the term "working" horse.
Exactly.... what they heck is a 'working horse' or 'working bloodlines'??? I think some of these horses are so far removed from their origins at this point that people need to start looking at _recent_ uses in the past few generations....

The problem is that today's 'show horse' is so different from 20-30 years ago that people assume incorrectly that if it isn't a current show type - it must be from 'working type'....

I daresay _all_ Pasos 2-3 hundred years ago worked - or got eaten... ! ;)

Kerry W

02-20-2008, 03:45 PM

Well...3-4 times a year back then, seems like quite a few. Also what PH said about his demeanor in the show ring (I've heard Stella describe it too). When he was in there, he was "ON!"....very competitive, and wanted to win! Isn't that a quality that one would look for in a show horse? I mean, he wasn't campaigned (and I get what you mean Steph...really not trying to be hostile), but he had many qualities that one would seek in a show horse. The things that kept him from being a show horse were??????????

I don't know...willingness, strong work ethic, great looks, the desire to win, that "LOOK AT ME" attitude...sounds to me, like that would make a great show horse, OR trail horse...aren't many of the qualities we look for in both/either interchangeable? My mare has both kinds of lines...I guess she's just confused. :confused:

StephB

02-20-2008, 04:04 PM

When he was in there, he was "ON!"....very competitive, and wanted to win! Isn't that a quality that one would look for in a show horse?

Yes, and I had a mare just like that too. She was all hopped up when we went to a show and wanted to win. She was also a trail horse that I did team penning with.
So, yes, that’s a great quality for a show horse. I guess I’m not getting my point across clearly, but if I had to draw a pie chart of time spent showing for Favorito, it would be a very small sliver compared to everything else he did – just like if I did one for my performance mare. My mare could have been a great show horse, but it wasn’t possible for me to drive all over the East Coast so she was really a horse that could have been a show horse, but wasn’t. I see Favorito kind of the same way. He wasn’t shown that often so he was a horse that could be a great show horse when asked. There were people back then that really campaigned and went all over to all the shows and those were the people I thought of as show people with show horses.
This is actually kind of a silly argument since the poor guy has been dead for so long now. I didn’t consider him a “working” horse either unless you count breeding mares. His father, Baron, supposedly worked cows on a ranch, but I never saw Favorito anywhere near a cow.

CarolU

02-20-2008, 04:36 PM

I have a Favorito daughter and she is definitely a Trail horse. Hates shows, ears always back, very 'disgusted' with the whole mess, stresses and hates them. But, point her out on the trail and her ears are up, she's eager, never quits and has taken me to some awesome places on trails that taught me to pray again (Please God don't let this horse trip!) She is amazing, even went down a hill so steep she had dirt on her butt from sliding down it. No hesitation and no winging out about doing it either.

Judi has two arenas and miles of trails out her gate. I get on Zar and give her her head. She ALWAYS heads out the gate and down the trail.

She's a trail horse.

Carol Nelson

02-20-2008, 04:40 PM

And a downright purdi-full one too!! ;)

SandyMM

02-20-2008, 05:12 PM

Cindy

02-20-2008, 05:46 PM

So - Antares was ridden/trained on the trails 95% of the time and shown 5% of the time - in his career he placed in his first show, qualified for Nationals by his second show (these were all 1 day, 1 judge shows), won Fl State championship in Performance Stallions in his 3rd show and won National Performance Stallion in his 4th show.... Again, he spent 95% of his time under saddle on the trails.... Show horse or 'working' horse?

Silly question....

LOL. That's kind of what I have been thinking. I train a lot of what I guess most people would term show horses as they are shown and some very successfully. The horses that I show are here anywhere from 6 months to a year at a time. Every day I warm them up in the round pen and then go out on the trail. About once a month or so I will ride them in the arena one day. I will take them to 3 or 4 shows at the most and then to Nationals. So if horse is here for one year that is 365 days. They will spend about 30 days at a show. Will be worked in the arena about 12 days. That leaves 323 days of the year. Take off for weekends that are left after showing at 92 days and then let's say a month of rain days when they are not ridden at 30. Add a couple days off after every show we'll say 10 and that leaves 274. So these horses spend 30 days a year at shows and 274 days a year they are ridden on the trail. So that comes out to about 10 percent of days that they are ridden that they are at a show. And that is the high end of the horses that I show. So I guess they are not show horses after all. Oh and when they are NOT here with me, their owners are riding them on the trails.

paintedhorizon

02-20-2008, 07:14 PM

Okay, was Antares ridden on the trails and such to be trained for the show?

Favorito was not. Showing was secondary.

If you are riding them all the time in order to train for a show, and they succeed, then yes, they are show horses.

Again, let's remember, these are all opinions. It's not a big deal!

sporthorse

02-20-2008, 07:56 PM

we should remember if the show horses can be well enough trained starting with a good disposition and just as importantly be commanding of presence like our best show horses and well enough gaited then they will make an great trail horse. It takes a lot more than the mind and fitness ,add miles and experience then you have a representative suited for our breed. Working lines are out there doing what a great show horse can graduate to with our super intensive demands our show folks start them with.Training and conditioning in our rings are unparalleled by any other breed.I salute our versatile horse of which the best trainers prepare the showring horses with trail miles when possible.
Thanks for our top ten horses that produce enough champs that we have numbers of trail worthy reps out there.And KUDOs of courseto the breeders that have built a program sought after beyond the other breeds for our trail horses and show horses may thy be represented correctly and pride in each type or in both as the greats can do generations after.

Kerry W

02-20-2008, 07:57 PM

Not an argument, Steph...a discussion! http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif

SandyMM

02-20-2008, 08:11 PM

Okay, was Antares ridden on the trails and such to be trained for the show?
Nope - trail ridden alone or with my friends in Davie (on their Pasos) for fun.... :v:

And I'm still waiting to hear what 'working lines' did or do that would qualify them as 'working lines'... what 'work' did they do? Antares was a Kofresi son and I'm pretty sure they didn't use him for working cattle or pulling carts...

Does coming from a cattle ranch in a country of origin mean a horse is automatically a 'work' horse - any more than simply being the son/daughter of two show horses automatically makes a horse a show horse?

Pasos have been in this country for enough generations that I think it's time to start defining them - if you must - by what has been done here... and what a can of worms that could be! LOL! ;)

paintedhorizon

02-20-2008, 08:18 PM

Okay, I'm going to do it.

I'm saying working, but don't MEAN that. It's because the word I'm actually thinking of is so d@mned in this forum. But here goes.

Pleasure. Yes, you heard me! Pleasure horses! As in, they are bred and trained to have fun with them, ride on trails, ride around the farm, take to little open shows and group trail rides.

So there. I said it. Flame me away. But I do NOT see anything wrong with the word pleasure used as I am using it. These horses are bred and trained for people to ENJOY, RIDE, etc. If they decide to show, that's great!

This has NOTHING to do with show culls, pleasure being a bad word in ads, etc. Just MY definition of pleasure.

Stella's horses are a PLEASURE to me. She does not show them. They are not show horses in my definition, but all of them could blow the socks off of most horses in the show ring today.

CarolU

02-20-2008, 08:54 PM

And a downright purdi-full one too!! ;)

Thank you Carol. And "Trail Queen" says "Thanks" too. :)

:grayhorse::grayhorse::grayhorse::grayhorse::grayh orse::grayhorse::grayhorse::grayhorse:

(now, if it would just STOP snowing so I could get Missy Big Butt out riding!)

motorgypsy

02-21-2008, 05:23 AM

Michelle I somehow think you never finished reading the thread about the term pleasure horse being used in advertising - and that is the entire context in which my comments on the TERM pleasure horse were placed - in the context of using the term in an ad for selling a horse. Oh well - it's out there somewhere. If telling you the truth about the perception of this term in an ad is flaming - well so be it.

A horse that can "do it all" is a Renaissance horse. A breed in which a great many of its members can "do it all" is a Renaissance breed. The paso fino is a Renaissance breed. Just because a particular paso fino doesn't actually "do it all" has no bearing on its ability to perform. It's just limited by its owner's capabilities and desires. A great many of our horses are held back because we as owners/riders just don't have the ability and/or the desire to use them in all the ways they are capable of being used.

A couple of things to think about. A working horse is a horse with a paying job. Descendants of cowboy's horses for example would be considered from "working lines" since a cowboys horse is an essential part of his ability to earn his pay. Would a show horse that earns megabucks through its performance in the show ring then be considered a working horse also??? Would a horse who carries its owner around the woods for three or four hours a week and pigs out on hay, grain and pasture, never earning a cent in its entire life be considered a liability?

Edurne

02-21-2008, 11:50 AM

Coming in late in the discussion; and from an "uninformed" point of view", I would say:

Show Horse - a horse who's conditioning and schooling is primarily focused towards doing well in shows.

Working Horse - Horse who has job; such as trail riding, cow chasing etc. Job might be as lowly as herd leader, uncle to horses-in-training.

Pasture Pet - just there to be loved on.

Kerry W

02-21-2008, 12:24 PM

That's a good definition, Edurne...I've heard several who are from the same school of thought in this thread. The topic was "Working Lines", which suggests that the working lines are different than show lines. Hilachas, I believe, is considered a "working line" horse, yet he produced many show horses, and was himself Top Ten Sire (producer of show horses) something like 8 times, although he was never shown himself. Coral, considered "working lines"...same deal...10 times Top Ten Sire, Favorito, same deal...so how are these "working line" bred horses, different than say...Contrapunto, Bochica, or the Resortes?

Eblis, was from Cometa (Resorte I), which is considered a "show line"...several of his get were imported by the Phipps...who by the looks of this thread, imported "working lines". Guala...dam of Resorte III, was also among the horses that they imported...show line or working line?

To me, they all came from a small gene pool, not that far removed from one another, so what is that fork in the road for the working line, vs. the show line? If I buy a horse that has "que tal" in the pedigree, do I have a working horse or a show horse, since many of the "que tals" did excel in the show ring, as did their get/grandget?

Edurne

02-21-2008, 12:31 PM

well then.... to me, it would be dependent on subtleties such as conformation, way of being etc. There surely would be a difference in a show stopping passo as compared to my diagonally challenged ground thumping trail pony (who did spend the first part of his life as a working show pony).

CarolU

02-21-2008, 02:22 PM

Kerry, I think that conception comes from the Dave Jones articles, that they didn't want show horses, and bought instead the "transportation Pasos" used to carry people in the mountains. The exception to that was Mahoma, according to his articles. He did this for several reasons, one was conformation, one was 'natural gait' since he couldn't be sure with the show horses how much was natural gait (he said they were trotty) and how much was training, and another was sure-footededness.

His vision was to have the "World's Smoothest Pleasure Horse", not show horses. The Paso Fino breed already had show horses and still has plenty of show horses. It was a "Pleasure Horse" that they wanted to import and breed here in the U.S. I just think there are many of us who still believe in his vision of the breed in America.

StephB

02-21-2008, 02:34 PM

If I buy a horse that has "que tal" in the pedigree, do I have a working horse or a show horse, since many of the "que tals" did excel in the show ring, as did their get/grandget?

I'd say it's whatever you want it to be. The que tal descendants I have owned over the years would do anything I asked of them. Well... one just wasn't a "Paso" show horse - she had no flash at all and would rather canter than gait around a circle. She would, however, jump anything. She was my very small Puissance horse. LOL

SandyMM

02-21-2008, 03:32 PM

If I buy a horse that has "que tal" in the pedigree
I had a friend who had an Appaloosa who she had traced back to Man O' War.... I can assure you she did not own a race horse!:v:

motorgypsy

02-21-2008, 03:40 PM

As I said - a good paso fino can do it all - show and work and just hacking around.

So when you call a paso fino a "show horse" you are talking about its use or intended use, not its identity. If you call a paso fino a "sport horse" - again you are talking about its current or intended use, not its identity. There are a few breeders who really specialize in their use of the paso fino. But if you look at the offspring of what they breed, you will find them in all sorts of "jobs" - many far from the original use the breeder wanted them to do well in when breeding them.

If you breed paso finos for a particular use, you don't breed out what makes the horse a paso fino. When you breed a sport horse or a working horse or a show horse you just add a little something to the particular paso finos you are breeding. Perhaps you add size. Perhaps you add color. Perhaps you add larger bone. Perhaps you add a more refined body type. But you don't and shouldn't taking away from its "pasofinoness" when doing this.

And this is why some people become so angry at the discussion of the breeding practices to specialize in a particular use for the paso fino breed. They are fearful that in the process of breeding the ultimate - let's say jumping paso fino - that we will lose the "pasofinoness" which is the critical attribute of our breed. This we must retain at all costs. If we lose it, we no long have a paso fino.

You can change colors, size, bone, even disposition without losing this but you have to be very careful not to lose the essence of this very special breed. If you lose this, you lose the breed itself. You all know this has happened in may other American breeds. Let's not let it happen to the paso fino.

SandyMM

02-21-2008, 04:04 PM

Thank goodness... I was worried I couldn't enter Emi in the fino stallions next year! :rolleyes:

CarolU

02-21-2008, 04:16 PM

And this is why some people become so angry at the discussion of the breeding practices to specialize in a particular use for the paso fino breed. They are fearful that in the process of breeding the ultimate - let's say jumping paso fino - that we will lose the "pasofinoness" which is the critical attribute of our breed. This we must retain at all costs. If we lose it, we no long have a paso fino.

Isn't this exactly what Fino-breeders do too? I don't see anyone getting angry at them....just largo, pleasure, trail, pinto, and size breeding. Just my observation from reading this and Charlie's board for the past 9 years. I have never seen anyone attack a Fino breeder.

stella

02-22-2008, 05:23 AM

Ok, so since my horse is being discussed, and this is an interesting topic I'd like to put my 2cents in on...gosh, I'm still behind on email! I'll do one on Fav first....and then some on "work/show" issue...

I bought Favorito as an unbroken 6 1/2 year old from a classified ad in the Washington Post, although I was primarily going to look at the mares...and they were boarded in SC, so most people werent interested travelling that distance. The owner was at Andrews AFB, and had purchased him as a weanling to go with the PR mares he'd brought back, but had stayed in service, so he hadnt seen the horses in 3 years. (and the guy boarding them also had pasos, and years later I traded training 11 year old Frijol que tal(Hilachas x Malvaloca)for some breedings to him) Not exactly the place or age to buy a showhorse....

I didnt have a riding ring on my first farm...I trained Fav in the front yard, doing circles and figure 8s around 2 forsythia bushes, on the wooded trails behind the little farm,and the largo on the straight stretch of backroad I lived on....
The first time he was in a riding ring was, the 2 days before the first horse show I took him to, Easter Monday in North Carolina (my bro lived down there then, Chapel Hill). I had 2 days(in rain) to teach him to work the rail clockwise, he wanted to sidepass it.....I got him to work parallel only about 5' off the rail, and just prayed he'd get closer when in company. That horse show was the first time I ever rode him in the company of another horse. (would I dare do that now with a stud? No. But I was young and daring then! Heck, I'd just fully bitted him only 4 days before, he was too old to show w/a bosal)

My viewpoint of showing was basically as a "gauge" to see how far along I'd gotten in training(a more realistic "handle" of where I stood, working towards "the standards"), what was good and what still needed work, and to be able to see others' pasos and learn, there were so few and far between, and it was the best place to see alot of PFs of all different kinds. Only when I started Mason-Dixon regional was there finally a horse show less than 7 hours drive away(Fonda and Piedmont).
Of course, in the old days, the three divisions pretty much covered the entire gamut of the different kinds of Paso Finos, you could tell a fino from a corto from a largo, and also a performance horse was distinctly different from a pleasure horse, you didnt have to look at the rider's outfit, and the pleasure division was about having a stylish yet truly trail pleasure horse, a big deal was made about having a distinctly loose rein, and the horse showing "self-carriage" in gait...and the manners you'd expect of a trail pleasure horse. Many of people participated just to support their regionals and have fun doing it.

Anyway, the second farm I rented was 20 acres of about 140, and besides corn and hay my landlady also raised cattle, and it was on a regular basis(like every other week, at least!)that I had to go find the loose cows for her, who where usually pigging out in the corn or hay fields.There was also a neighbor with sheep, and Fav really LOVED herding those little suckers back under the fence! We'd be riding along the back fenceline, and if they were out around the corner, Fav'd know it, even if I couldnt see them......he'd just stop, brace...I'd give him his head, and he'd race around the fence corner with his neck snaked and ears pinned, darting around and scaring the daylights out of those sheep...and I was just along for the ride!

There was also a foxhunt from this farm twice a year....I turned down many outcross breedings at the breakfasts afterwards from people hoping their 16h TB mares could inherit Fav's gait and temperament...they could hardly believe a stallion could behave so well around mares, ride so smoothly, and even keep up at 14.2h with full gallops....

I also taught him to drive a cart at that farm...I started several pasos there, plenty of room. Yes, I eventually showed him in that, and its true: Favorito knew when he was at a show, its wasnt just that I worked him differently there, but he had a competitive nature, especially when off his "home ground" amongst other stallions...thats why, at the Nationals in driving, where the audience went nuts with his largo(the noise of which made him more of a handful, he was one big ham in the showring)Judge Rosalie McWilliam told me, "Outstanding performance, but Stella, this is PLEASURE driving, not Roadster!" we got 3rd because of it)
On trails, I could "ride him on the buckle" and he'd plop along in a flat walk as long as I wanted (ok, I admit,as long as he was lead horse), and he shyed at nothing. He was very adaptable in his nature, a totally different horse than in the ring, but always confident.

So, the 3rd farm (near Wash DC)which is where Steph B eventually boarded with me, and yes there were no cows, but 3600 acres of great trails, streams, woods, hills, rocks to ride in right across the street.I also used Fav to dragride on a number of competitive and endurance rides, and to clear trails, on the other farms as well as this one. (It was my first Paso, Cupidito, that I drag rode the Old Dominion 100 for a third of it) We also rode with 2 clubs, did all weekend rides, riding with many other breeds.
Anyway, I finally moved to SC to now own my own 50 acre farm (totally, no mortgage!)in SC, where I could afford it! Favorito is buried behind his paddock, which is now occupied by one of his sons...

I think up until the early '90s and for a period of about 12 years or so, especially the period when there was no Country Pleasure class, the performance and pleasure divisions werent a "means to an end" but the end, and related in no way to anything other than gait styles from a conceptual viewpoint(show pleasure is a stylistic concept, a show pleasure horse would be rated poorly on a judged pleasure or competitive trailride), so that the shows became exclusionary to part of what naturally occurs in the breed,(technically in breeding called "variation," as related to way of going), instead, all the classes started looking the same, what I called classic fino, finocorto, and finolargo, and you could sometimes tell the difference between perf and pleasure because of higher action, but it was more reliable to do so by looking at the riders' outfits to be sure. Sure, this has happened in many other breeds, where the showring isnt a means to an end, but "the end," and they're often called "hothouse horses." And the ones that meet the standards of whatever other equestrian activity one enjoys, but for which one has to rely on a generic standard of excellence, because one's breed no longer includes such at their shows, "working." Thats my take, and what its been in the other breeds this has happened to (such as Arab, Morgan, Saddlebred, Walker, etc)

As I said before, I think the pendulum is swinging back to greater balance, and I laud those trainers such as Cindy that have hung in there and strive to retain all that the breed is about, a horse that can work "up," or "down"...that takes alot of confidence, and the right training from the getgo -and a real love of the breed first and foremost, that hasnt been overtaken by the lure of winning first and foremost instead-but....I just had a call very recently, where the lady said this:
"My husband and I have a number of Paso Finos as showhorses for the past 10 years, but I'm tired of riding horses that cant relax, that I cant ride relaxed, and have to keep a tight rein on.....do you have a nice laid back one I can ride on a loose rein safely?" I was literally shocked when I asked -their trainer was one of the best in the country, especially in Show Pleasure.
And, I guess it depends on what you expect from your trailhorse. I went on the "National Trailride" a couple years ago(for PF), and I was glad I wasnt the one riding about 3/4 of the other horses. They just didnt meet even the general expection of what the average trailriding(not necessarily yet Paso) person expects as a nice leisurely, social, safe trailride for a few hours-oh, and not to forget, smooth (nor does a good trail paso need to move at all like a QH(. Alot didnt have any groundcovering ability.
Its one thing for horses to be excited the first few minutes amongst other horses new to them, and quite another to have so many white knuckled persons need to be so very intent on controlling their horses almost every minute for hours on end, it was almost exhausting just to watch what they had to put up with.

Furthermore, I think its easier to see and talk about how things are changing for the better in the showring (and even larger breeding farms)when you live in the Southeast, because that's where you can really see the changes, thats where the highest concentration, the hub, of the show world is. Having lived for a long time in a remoter part of the PF world, the perspective is different.

Oh, and BTW, the original association, APF(American Paso Fino Horse Assn), was originally called "American Paso Fino Pleasure Horse Association," and what caused the breakoff of PFOBA(now PFHA)had to do with showing.......

Red Ryder

02-22-2008, 06:07 AM

Very good insight!!!

Do I read you to say that many of today's show horses, in your opinion, Don't necessarily
meet the needs and wants of today's average pleasure /trail rider that wants a relaxed ride??

CarolU

02-22-2008, 02:02 PM

Thank you Stella, for the history of Fav and for the insights about the breed and the changes in the show ring over time. I hope you're right about it coming back to center plumb and there is again room for Pleasure horses in our winner's circles. We'll see.

As for horses with the ability to relax, all horses have this ability. It is up to the trainer to make sure the horse can do both, come up and and relax back down. Too many trainers focus only on the 'up' side and that is all the horse knows under saddle.

BTW - I don't think you can ever make a Paso Fino like a Quarter Horse on the trails. I ride with them all the time, along with several Pasos and many other breeds, and the gaited horses consistently, even at a walk in rough terrain, leave the QH's behind. Actually, it's a rare QH or Paint who can keep up.

I took a QH rider with me on a trail ride. Her first comment was, "Do we have to go so fast?" I looked at the horses, then at her, and pointed out "We're only walking." There are people who prefer plodding. Hard to imagine, but true. LOL

StephB

02-22-2008, 02:11 PM

BTW - I don't think you can ever make a Paso Fino like a Quarter Horse on the trails. I ride with them all the time, along with several Pasos and many other breeds, and the gaited horses consistently, even at a walk in rough terrain, leave the QH's behind.

Truth, and it's not just QH's that can't keep up. Darn near anyone I've ridden with had to trot to keep up with my horse's walk. (Except for my "little jumper" who would slowly increase the space between her and the last horse so she could get in a canter to catch up.)
Zar could certainly pick 'em up and put 'em down.
Looks like I was wrong about Favorito and the cows. Now I wish we'd had some sheep or cows at the Maryland farm. :biggrin:

paintedhorizon

02-22-2008, 02:12 PM

Oh wow. Oh wow oh wow oh wow. I’m in awe. Man, I would have KILLED to have just met Favorito! I really want to see some video of him!

Stella, I'm saying this again, I am so positively THRILLED to have you as a friend and to have your knowledge at my fingertips! I hope to know at least half of what you do some day!

I think Stella said it all!

Hey Stella! I think we need to get some cows!

motorgypsy

02-22-2008, 03:57 PM

Sandy you will notice that I said even though we have people who specialize and in particular the fino breeders, the offspring of the famous fino stallions and mares are out there doing everything from endurance to parades to driving to hacking around. If certain fino horses have no range of gait I do not think this characteristic should be perpetuated.

Regarding paso finos who cannot ride with QH's - we ride all our paso finos (small and large) with QH's all the time. They have no problem going that slowly. I would consider this to be a training and owner preference issue, not a breed issue. Many times we choose the QH group rather than the gaited, fast group because we want to enjoy the scenery and just poke along. So please, readers, do not this is a general breed thing. It isn't. We ride with a lot of paso finos also and they all can "go very slowly" when asked. If your paso fino won't go as slow as a QH - it's back to training until they will. Our breed needs to be able to match speed with QH's since they and paints are the most common breed on the trail and it's very likely we will have friends who own them that we would enjoy riding with.

When you think about it the fino gait is a protective gait during battle. It's much harder for a foot soldier to attack a rider when the horse is moving its feet a hundred miles an hour. My 13 2 mare is very intimidating to people on the ground when she gets those feet moving. But you can believe that these war horses had a huge range of gait or they wouldn't have been selected for this dangerous occupation. This kind of specializing is like like breeding a horse who can only stop and gallop. I owned one of those. They aren't fun. I think the majority of paso fino owners and breeders object to breeding solely for fino without considering conformation or range of gait. I know - there are some who prefer it. But there are some who want all paso fino to be 16 hands. I object to that also.

You know you see criticism of the fino breeders all the time. When they breed a reject that is crazy and try to sell it as a "trail horse" the rest of us have to deal with the fallout of a dissatisfied owner who then tells everyone else about how crazy paso finos are. It took me two years to settle Chinook to the point where she has an on/off switch and she is still pretty feisty and hot but now manageable. Brandy also and she was never show trained so this is inherited. I LOVE a hot horse. I hate and will not ride a CRAZY horse.

Stella - thanks so much for the history. We didn't get involved in it until 1982 so have much to learn from people who have been in it for years and years like Candice's parents, you, Barb, and so many others. I, like you , do hope that we are seeing the pendulum swing in the direction of keeping all the wonderful characteristics of this fantastic breed and getting rid of the extremes like crazy and unmanageable. I have been extremely pleased to see at recent shows a greater percentage of really well behaved horses and much more differentiation between the corto and the largo.

I do have great concerns about the homogeneity of winning show horses. I don't think we can stop embryo transfer but I do think that as responsible small breeders we can make sure the diversity of the GOOD paso fino is maintained. I know that Maraquita La Rosa has a good largo and actually seems to enjoy herself in the show ring. But I really don't want all 11 of my paso finos to be her identical twins. Now I wouldn't mind one of them to be.:biggrin:

So the more we can learn about breeding, the more we can eliminate flaws like sickle hocks and cow hocks and other functional flaws, the more we can eliminate nasty tempered, spookhead and crazy horses from the breed gene pool, the more likely we are to be able to keep our Renaissance horses and their pasofinoness intact.

The more variety we can offer in size, color, temperament (really laid back to really goey), and even body build (massive to more delicate and refined) the better we will be able to market our horses to good owners who really appreciate the breed.

Carol Nelson

02-22-2008, 04:52 PM

This is a pretty amusing thread here...I decided to throw in my two cents. As you know, my main breeding stallion is Rojo Tejas, and I breed pleasure horses...essentially trying to produce a nicely gaited Paso Fino that's calm and levelheaded enough for the trails. Now if you look at Rojo's pedigree, which is chiefly Resorte, Rojo's sire being El Picaflor de Casta, who is a son of Capuchino. Red also has Ladrillo, and very heavy on the Castellano, on his mother's side. She is a double Castellano g.daughter. Some of these are some pretty hot so called "show horse" lines....but Rojo is anything but hot, and he's producing some pretty nice "trail horse" babies. They're still pretty...and could go in the show ring...but I doubt they'd have the heat that's expected in that venue today.
So to look at Red's pedigree, some might say...how can she be producing trail horses out of those bloodlines?? My point in jumping into this thread is that I'm not sure you can immediately classify a horse as being show or trail quality by looking at the pedigrees. You've got to look at the specific horse. I also have a mare that is Retorno del Ocho lines (a Capuchino half-brother)...and she's probably my most laid back mare...I bred her to Red and got a baby that is almost asleep...but that's the one all my clients want. But she's priced high...because she's got the temperament that can make her a horse anyone can ride. So there you have a horse that is out of some of the highest brio lines in the breed...and she's the perfect trail horse.
Can you have trail horses that come out of show bloodlines...of course! But one thing I don't accept on my farm is the crazy ones. I consider each one's temperament first before I buy a mare...then comes conformation and gait. But they've got to have a good mind to make a good trail horse.

And by the way, out here in east central Texas, there's very little demand for the show horse. You got to produce a horse for the average rider that is probably just coming off a QH. They don't want to get on a goofy, little side-stepping, snorting firecracker...oh no, they want "a Paso Fino with the QH temperament"....I hear it all the time...

LynnG

02-22-2008, 09:10 PM

What was Favorito then? I know he produced show horses, he was on the Top Ten Sire's list four years in a row...and I know he was shown more than a few times (including Nationals), in pointed classes.

Bill Minter rode/showed Favorito in the early '80's (1983?) in the Piedmont region and Natls, and when he stood at stud in NC... that is where those "...MeLa" foals came from that competed and helped put Favorito on the Top Ten Sire list. Bill's Farm at the time was MeadowLark Paso Finos. There is a pic floating around I have seen of Bill riding Favorito in a show.

pnalley

02-22-2008, 09:24 PM

I have to disagree that QH or other stock horses can't keep up. That is horse feathers! The horses can keep up, it is the riders that can't handle it.
For years we rode Apps & QH's, we were NEVER left behind. Matter of fact, I most likely rode faster then.

StephB

02-22-2008, 09:28 PM

I have an old picture of Especia MeLa

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj98/Nougatnator/Pasos/mela.jpg

SandyMM

02-22-2008, 09:38 PM

I have to disagree that QH or other stock horses can't keep up. That is horse feathers! The horses can keep up, it is the riders that can't handle it.
LOLOL - isn't _that_ the truth.... On our local trail rides, Emi can lead out a group and anybody who keeps up with his _walk_ is either on another gaited horse or somebody whose rider doesn't mind a lot of trotting.... ;)

JimHannah

02-22-2008, 10:39 PM

Last year on a Trail Ride, I swapped a guy his Paint for my Paso for the first part of the ride. It took a little work, but I got his Paint to collect a bit to smooth him out some, and got his walk up to 7-8 miles an hour. I had to skip the breaks and keep riding to catch up to him and get my horse back. He was very disappointed to see me. I'll bet he thought he'd just keep riding that Paso cuz I wouldn't ever catch up. The point is that you can get the life up in at leat some of those horses. You've got to work to do it, though.

Jim

LynnG

02-22-2008, 11:04 PM

Steph, Especia was shown quite abit by Bill and her A/O owner Cliff Jones...her dam "Estrella Vespertina MoVe" was a Mar de Plata daughter and their were numerous maternal siblings to Especia who competed and did well in the show ring in the Piedmont region shows. They all had a fast flowing largo. One of her other trademarks she passed along were the four white stockings. That is a nice photo of Especia...she could boogie along.

StephB

02-22-2008, 11:33 PM

I met Cliff (not that he would remember me, just a kid) and Especia several times. She was the spitting image of Favorito except for all the extra chrome. Very nice mare. I always liked her.

Kerry W

02-22-2008, 11:49 PM

Thanks Lynn...I remembered that he stood down here, and may have seen a photo of him on Favorito...either he, or Raven Briggs (did I get that name right?).

Stella, thanks for the info, and your definition of "working lines" makes a little more sense to me than the Dave Jones connection (no offense Carol U), simply by virtue of the fact that Coral LaCe and other horses that Dave Jones had no involvement with, also seem to have that label attached to them. In fact, several of the horses that seem to carry this distinction, were show horses...some of them fino.

When I think of "working lines", I guess I think more of "cow horse"...and it seems to me, that if people are coming from other breeds they might draw that same conclusion. I don't know if any of the que tal horses, held titles in any sort of cow horse competitions, barrels, reining, cutting, etc...but I do know several were fino champions. I just think we should let them have that. That, after all, is part of the reason people bought horses, and breedings from them...for what they saw in the show ring. It may not have been Dave Jones' intention to produce show horses, but someone at that farm didn't have the same vision...or their vision changed at some point, obviously. ;)

Carol Nelson...maybe those people just want a QH with extra hair...have them buy extensions...I'd rather see that, than see people (not implying you, of course) produce Paso horses that are unrecognizable, to target a market that doesn't like what a Paso is.

Interesting topic...and nice to explore the terminology further, in a non combative atmosphere...thanks to all! :)

Carol Nelson

02-23-2008, 12:42 AM

Carol Nelson...maybe those people just want a QH with extra hair...have them buy extensions...I'd rather see that, than see people (not implying you, of course) produce Paso horses that are unrecognizable, to target a market that doesn't like what a Paso is.

No ma'am, it has nothing to do with hair...it has to do with temperament. It has to do with being calm, being tractible, being fun and being smooth...but not scary.
I don't think I'm changing the Paso Fino...I'm using lines that have been tried and true in the show ring. All Red's ribbons were won in Bella Forma and he has a box full to prove it. From many judges. So I think he's all Paso Fino...but he's not scary. My babies are all recognizable Paso Fino. I can send you a video if you want...;). They all gait...marvelously.
But now that Red's back under saddle, he's my demo horse...yeah, just like all of you told me. A couple of weeks ago, we had seven different people on him...including myself. You know me, I won't get on anything but the calmest of horses. And including the woman who bred Ms. T to him this week.
I want to produce the type of Paso Fino that I want to ride....and I am. We are a small breed. We can't afford to tell people, "Well, if you don't like it, go somewhere else." We have a bad rep in a lot of places..."Paso Finos are crazy horses!" "They're pretty but they don't go anywhere." I hear it all...all the time. When people come to my farm and I tell them what I am breeding for, they tell me they have a Paso Fino at home that someone sold them, and they confess, sadly but honestly, "It is too much horse for me." They tell me, "Stick to your guns, and don't ever stop what you're doing." That's good enough for me.

Carol Nelson

02-23-2008, 12:48 AM

And just a postscript to the above...I had someone get in touch with me last week. They had an incredibly well-bred mare from top of the top lines and they paid a lot of money for her. They wanted to trade her for a trail-safe gelding that I have on my website. She is fino, and she is high-brio. I told them sorry, I love your mare...but I have little use for her. Regrettably, I told them no.

motorgypsy

02-23-2008, 01:20 AM

Paula funny you should mention the riders. I see more and more people at the barns where we board some of our horses who ride their horse for ten minutes or so in an arena, go to a local show and again ride around and around in an arena, worry constantly about their horse getting too much protein and being too hot (not true, it's carbs that can produce heat) and then after five years of this turn around and give lessons. What they call a canter is slower than a corto. They couldn't ride a gallop or a buck or a sharp turn if their lives depended on it. If their horse even moves at a speed faster than molasses moves in January they are terrified.

We no longer have kids like Paula, Shelley, CindyG and the rest of you guys who grew up riding around like maniacs, jumping picnic tables, galloping all over creation, and just plain having good horse sense as well as the ability to ride anything on four legs. The only place I remotely see this is at our local mostly western shows from kids who still live on farms and ranches. For the rest of them there is no place for them to get that experience. It's very sad.

Carol - to me a good paso fino is both calm and "hot" in the sense that when I ask for movement - it's there. When I ask for a gallop - it's there. When I ask for a QH flat head down drag the feet walk - it's there. What I mean by hot is a love of moving, gaiting, going fast, lots of energy but only when it's asked for. And I bet your boy has exactly that. That is a REAL paso fino - not these spookheads with their heads in the sky looking for trolls at every corner, refusing to walk, jumping all over the place and scaring any sane person to death. So I have the highest regard for all those who breed TRUE BRIO - courage, good sense, intelligence, willingness to do what is asked, a true partner you trust to carry you through fire if necessary. All good paso finos have these traits regardless of use.

But preserve me from a "deadhead". I spent too many years riding rental horses with my friends who owned their own horses. You spent your life kicking the poor thing to get a walk let alone something faster. the crazies are dangerous. The deadheads - well - I'd rather ride a bike.

Kerry W

02-23-2008, 02:56 AM

Carol, I put in my post (not implying you, of course) so you would be aware I was not implying that you were trying to change the breed with your program...and I meant that sincerely. I also don't think that all people "really" want a Paso. They may like the look (they are pretty!) like to watch them, and say they want one, but a lot of people freak out over the brio. That's okay...not everyone will love this breed...that's why there are others. ;)

SandyMM

02-23-2008, 03:26 AM

The deadheads - well - I'd rather ride a bike.It's the only thing I ever left Pasos for...
Oh to be young, skinny, and healthy again....:rolleyes:

StephB

02-23-2008, 02:20 PM

It's the only thing I ever left Pasos for...
Oh to be young, skinny, and healthy again....:rolleyes:

I tried to use a mountain bike to distract myself from having horses. It worked for about 2 years. Well, one day I'm out on a trail up here in MD, when this pretty grey mare and rider come down the trail. I stop and I say, "That's a Paso!" She had trailered her over to ride those new trails and we talked for awhile. That was the only horse I ever saw on those trails and the fact that it was a Paso was pretty weird - we just don't have many of them around. I never could get that nice horse out of my mind after that. I guess I'm not made just to be a biker.

Lois York

02-23-2008, 03:09 PM

I agree with Terry, I had and HAVE those bloodlines and have no doubt in my mind that these are working lines Cordoba de Juan Jose would get bored out in the pasture and round up the other horses and cut out whomever he choose ON HIS OWN without anyone there. And he could do it under saddle just as quick ,too. I almost landed on the ground a few times when he would jump and turn to go after one. I didn't dare put him out after the cows........I would have never been able to "turn him off".
I will tell you that is what Laura York aka Mom breed him to be "an all round horse" a working horse just like Dave Jones proclaimed. I showed him in the states as did Meghan. He would jump( not in the showring tho), walk on plastic, put a parade outfit on and still look like a million bucks! I actually miss Doba very much for his versitility. But I have more here with the same characteristics, just need to put that kind of time in on them! He was not a fast largo horse though and was an average speed Paso in my books. He had a nice medium speed corto that he would take you all day long, "an honest horse" in my books!
If you are going to put down people for having "working lines" and using this I think it's nuts! Terry has been into the quarter horses and KNOWS "working lines"...does she not?? What makes it any different in the Paso Fino other than BREED?

CarolU

02-23-2008, 03:34 PM

LOL Lois. I kind of have to agree. You trail ride with me to the top of the mountains and try to tell Missy Big Butt it isn't WORK hauling me up to 8,000 feet! That big butt, she's definitely a working horse.

When I go to Sandy Young's clinic in Idaho, and I see the quality of "working line" horses bred out here (maybe you have to live out of the Southeast to see and appreciate them ;) ), I see Dave Jone's vision as a reality. There are some NICE pleasure horses here. A visit to Dave Hyatt's or Sandy's and you'll learn to appreciate these old foundation lines and the beautiful horses that have descended from them.

motorgypsy

02-23-2008, 03:41 PM

I haven't seen anyone disagree that many que tal horses were indeed real working horses and that their descendants certainly could be and some are real working horses.

Our point was that the paso fino breed has always been a working breed and hopefully will continue to be a working breed regardless of how we use them as an individual owner. It is this "working" mindset that makes them so great at everything from endurance to shows. Working horses can be great show horses. Show horses can be great working horses. Let's continue to breed this versatility into our paso finos.

If you purchase a paso fino from the "que tal" lines and wish to show it as well as "work" it, if it is a good paso fino you should be able to show with pride as many que tal horse owners have done.

If you wish to ride in an LD endurance ride or speed events with your properly conditioned, properly trained Coral or Que Tal or Capuchino son - you should have no problem doing so successfully. (Our friend was a speed show high point champion riding a Cappy son. He was doing 15 second barrels on that horse. Another Cappy son was one of the best trail horses I've ever ridden. One of ours is Coral plus fino, the other is PPR plus Plebeyo)

If you wish to do gaming on your paso fino you can do so with a que tal offspring or with a son of Monarca de Besilu. We did just that. The Monarca son was fantastic.

Again I beg all breeders to get rid of the crazies and the badly conformed and breed and train sound, sane, willing, well gaited horses - horses for all seasons.

And I might add - STOP selling your "show 101 rejects" as trail horses unless they really are sane and sound trail horses. It gives all of us and our horses a bad name. And STOP breeding spookheads. They are dangerous!

I owned a beagle that flunked "beagle school". At least the owner was very up front about her limitations. And she was "limited" to say the least. A gun shy beagle is not a very good hunting dog.:biggrin: And spookhead paso finos are NOT good trail horses until they are totally despooked and trail trained.

Kerry W

02-23-2008, 04:12 PM

Who says we don't appreciate them, Carol? We simply choose to recognize the fact that they were shown.

CarolU

02-23-2008, 04:18 PM

Who says we don't appreciate them, Carol? We simply choose to recognize the fact that they were shown.

How interesting! I've been misunderstanding all these posts through this whole thread. I've read it since the beginning that ya'll are saying there is no such thing as "working lines" as adverse to "show lines." :rolleyes:

Maybe we should say "original" lines...or "Foundation" lines or "Legacy" lines?

Whatever rocks your boat.

Kerry W

02-23-2008, 04:42 PM

Call them what you want, Carol...you always do.

britzlove

02-23-2008, 06:27 PM

I think if you go to buy a paso fino, and you buy a foal, you can make that foal whatever you want to.
I think if you go to buy a paso fino foal from a breeder who has show horses mainly, you can still buy a foal bred for the ring, but can still work with cows, or trail rides.
I think if you go to a pleasure horse enthusiast, a person in pleasure for use, ie: Carol Nelson, and you buy a horse from her, I think you can still show that foal.
All breeders produce offspring with limitations, it's the nature of imperfect science. From show horses to pleasure use horses, a few are always going to be exceptions.
I don't think you can buy a horse from any lines and know with any certainty that the baby will grow into exactly the use your human expectations require.
If you understand this breeds history truly, it's actually very easy to understand how these horses can do so much. Limiting them via personal bias, human opinion. I just don't understand at all. To really research the history you have to observe that they came in long before it seems to be accepted on this list, and they came in from various avenues, but with similar roots.

So, if you go to a breeder and they tell you that a horse is better for one thing or another, you can accept that, or you can know that if you like what you see, and you want to do something, you can make that happen.

And, I have never met a horse that was crazy because of breeding, btw. I have seen a few that haven't been given the right tools to succeed, human influence has not helped them adapt to certain situations, but I have never certainly met a paso that was so crazed at the base natural level. They have different brains to be sure, I can't put my finger on exactly why or how they get the way they do, but I know that something in them makes them not like other horses, and completely agree that they aren't for every handler, because they require a person with a certain amount of understanding. For the most part. Not fair at all to compare them to QHs, or anything else.

Lois York

02-24-2008, 12:42 PM

I would have to say I DON'T agree with that last statement...Whomever you are britzlove! I have a mare here that isn't afraid to try anything, she's foundation bloodlines. Yet I have another mare here, and I tell you what, she's a "I don't think so" type of horse. She has never had any different treatment than the other mare except BLOOD. She's amazing to watch and I have been asked what she's doing etc, but not the same kind of trustworthiness as the other mare is. And my third mare more timid than the other two, point her wherever you want her to go and your there. She will not fail to get you there. All these horses are old blood, big tanks and gait freely. They all were bred and born by Laura York aka Mom. I've ridden others and looked at quite a few, the hotter I've seen them the more unpredictable they have been. Brains are everything in this breed, if they don't have them, what good is hot/brio without control? And I've found for myself that foundation lines "working lines" have it!

SandyMM

02-24-2008, 01:26 PM

So, if you go to a breeder and they tell you that a horse is better for one thing or another, you can accept that, or you can know that if you like what you see, and you want to do something, you can make that happen.
I guess it depends on the breeder...
And, I have never met a horse that was crazy because of breeding, btw.
Wish I could say the same.

StephB

02-24-2008, 05:26 PM

Wish I could say the same.

Unfortunately, me too.

CarolU

02-24-2008, 05:34 PM

According to twin studies, 80% of personality is inherited. We know almost ALL of physical ability is inherited. If every horse was genetically and mentally the same as every other horse there would be no breeds, no races, no shows, and no Champions.

britzlove

02-24-2008, 07:09 PM

Isn't that just a little bit nasty even for this list? Who I am shouldn't have anything to do with whether I can have an opinion or not. I have 5 here, Ms. York, and two sets of half sisters, they are all different, so I am actually thinking you somewhat misinterpreted what I was saying. They all hand the same upbringing, no human influence.

I didn't say anything about some personality not being inherited. I certainly didn't say physical attributes weren't inherited. I'm saying that human influence has as much, but really more than these, when it comes to intended use.

I'm also saying that there are no guarantees that because you buy a horse with "foundation", "legacy", what ever lines you want to call specific horses does not mean you have a using horse, or show horse. Thank goodness, this breed has so much to offer. Who decides who is foundation?

All these horses come from "working lines". All these horses come from horses that can do what they are asked. None of these horses will out cut a QH, out jump a Trakehnor. But each of them have within them that will to please their human friends. Each of them is a thinker. Each of them is hardy and easy to care for. If you are willing to invest in them, they will invest in you. So to say that you can only get that with one breeding ideology or another, that is what I was saying was the problem. That is what these horses offer. A partner, also blessed with smooth gaits. A horse of a different color in their heart.

SandyMM

02-24-2008, 07:43 PM

I think if you go to buy a paso fino, and you buy a foal, you can make that foal whatever you want to.
......
I don't think you can buy a horse from any lines and know with any certainty that the baby will grow into exactly the use your human expectations require.

britz, I think this may be confusing people.... You seem to contradict yourself in the same paragraph...

I think the problem is how _well_ you expect to do some things with your Paso.... I could take _any_ quarterhorse and try to cut cattle, but the professionals stick with bloodlines that are more likely to be successful at a particular task. Does that mean that no other quarterhorses should try... not necessarily.

Since 'tight and quick' are the bywords for many Paso show classes today, bloodlines that do not tend to produce 'tight and quick' might not be the best place to start when looking for horses that could be successful in those particular classes/divisions....

CarolU

02-24-2008, 10:54 PM

I didn't say anything about some personality not being inherited. I certainly didn't say physical attributes weren't inherited. I'm saying that human influence has as much, but really more than these, when it comes to intended use.

You really think so Britz?

Look at the thread here on Lori West's new filly. A Maraquero daughter out of a Jaranero daughter. Do you think Lori could have bred any two 'average' Paso Finos and have the same chance of getting a horse that Finos like Maraquita? She has invested a lot of money to get those lines and increase her chances of a Fino champion. Why? If as you imply, she could take any Paso Fino from any lines and send it to the same trainer she will use, and get a Champion Fino horse? Because the truth is, she can't.

Not all Paso Finos are born with the same gait, size, speed, brio, body type, etc. If they were, then your statement would probably be correct.

Of course all Pasos originated from 'working lines.' As Sandy has said, before cars, either a horse worked or it was eaten. And yes, it's a small gene pool...but look at it. It is the same gene pool that created the Spanish Mustang (and later the Quarter Horse), the Peruvian Paso, the Marchador, and dozens of other breeds. 500 years is a lot of time for both diversity and specialization. Even the last 50 years have defined many, many new horse breeds.

motorgypsy

02-25-2008, 12:23 AM

Mental illness and even personality can be inherited. Will the offspring always be the same personality and have the "mental illness" the parents has? Nope. But they sure can. You have recessive traits that can come out in the off spring so they are different. You can also have the offspring be nearly clones of the parents.

Speaking of Lori Wests new baby - who I'm sure will be wonderful - IF she is fino fino this does not mean that she has no range of gait,no largo, is crazy, could not be used for cutting cattle (remember paso finos have been historically for cattle work), endurance or trail riding once she is finished with her show career and her breeding career. I have ridden many times on the trails with show champions who are fantastic trail horses also.

We have a mare that is the result of brother/sister breeding. The parents are granddaughter bred to grandfather. About as inbred as you can get. 62.5% Kofresi. Did she inherit the gait?? Oh yes. A gaiting machine. Her babies too. Did she get Kofresi's body build? Nope. Went back to Guamani and maybe even Dulce Sueno. Kofresi was narrow and slender. She's a tank. QH people love her looks. She's also really really wired. So she got some things and not others. Neither of her daughters are wired at all by the way.

All I've tried to say is to ride and study the horse and if possible, its parents FIRST. Then look at the pedigree. You can't ride the pedigree. Arwen is the product of two fino fino lines, hot show horses. She's as laid back as you can get. Adriel's father is very defensive of his food. Guess who else is. YUP Adriel bit me at age 3 months when I didn't get her food to her and get out of her way fast enough. Heredity does matter.

But just because a horse is good at one thing does not mean it is not good at many others also. In all our paso fino shopping in the southeast we've ridden hundreds of paso finos including some of the very best. We didn't like some of the very best. Others we LOVED. They were all so different.

But if you want a working horse in the sense of using one for endurance, jumping, long hard fast trail rides you set criteria and then look for horses that match that criteria. You don't go for the pedigree first. One of our endurance mares has a full sister and a nearly full sister - same father, mother is the sister of her mother. I would not use either of them for endurance. They don't have the conformation and one doesn't have the disposition. Individuals also matter.

Oh - and I have dealt with horses I thought were mentally ill. Horses can have brain tumors, and I sincerely believe some are psychopathic from birth. And some just have a "screw loose". 80% nature 20% nurture. But horses never forget abuse or bad experiences either.

SandyMM

02-25-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by britzlove http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/images/solido/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/showthread.php?p=179241#post179241)
I'm saying that human influence has as much, but really more than these, when it comes to intended use.

Human 'intent' only dictates _what_ a horse is asked to do... not how successful or suitable s/he is. If 'jack of all trades, master of none' is acceptable, then by all means pick anything with registration papers...

When it comes to the 'nature vs. nurture' argument - which is what you are presenting, I put my money on 'nature' (predisposed bloodlines) to choose a horse and 'nurture' (training) to fine tune.

Linda Y

02-25-2008, 02:04 AM

I absolutely believe a horse can be born 'bad'.
Three different foals out of the same very sweet beautifully gaited mare.
Foal one, filly by a PPR stallion who was REALLY hot. Filly had wonderful temperment, beautiful gait. Went on to be a youth reserve world champ in pleasure.
Foal two, sired by a world champion Performance stallion. Nasty nasty filly. Kicked my husband in her first hour of life, and stayed totally unpredictable her whole life. She was hot, hot. Fino to die for, but would blow at the slightest wrong move.
Foal 3, sired by a relatively unknown PPR stallion. Grew up big, tough and exceptionally smart. But a perfectly lousy, pacy gait.

I also knew a PPR mare that had the nastiest disposition I ever saw on a horse. She would take joy in attacking. If you tried to shoo her away, she would charge instead. And every one of her foals inherited her unpredictable nature, even by different stallions. It is possible that the mare 'nurtured' the bad disposition in her foals, who knows?

CarolU

02-25-2008, 02:20 AM

Isn't it interesting how people are quick to attribute good characteristics to a sire or dam, but it's all 'hush, hush' when it is a bad attribute?

Kerry W

02-25-2008, 03:04 AM

So in short...if you want to show your horse...stay AWAY from "working line" horses?

motorgypsy

02-25-2008, 04:27 AM

:biggrin:It depends on whether you idea of showing is fino fino doesn't it:biggrin:

A true story. A friend married this guy. Her kids really did hate him. She discovered that he was a con man and had a dozen identities and all sorts of law enforcement looking for him. She actually worked with I think the FBI but he managed to get away. Some time a couple of years later when she went to get married again she shared her story about the con artist with a woman who worked at the magistrates office where she was getting her marriage license. The woman said "You're really lucky you didn't get pregnant. I was married to a guy just like the one you described and did get pregnant. And you know what?? His son is just like him and my ex disappeared before he was born". Heredity does matter.

But the individual matters more because the phenotype - what you actually see and how well it works - can be very different from the parents when you have a diverse gene pool as we do with our paso finos.

It's very possible that within less than 15 years our fino show horses and many of the performance and pleasure show horses will be almost identical in appearance, gait and temperament because of embryo transfer and artificial insemination. A scary thought for me who loves the diversity of this breed.

What can we do? Continue to breed paso finos that are both GOOD paso finos and DIVERSE. Keep that gene pool as varied as we can without losing the identity of the breed.

Kerry W

02-25-2008, 04:37 AM

What about the fino fino horses produced by Meridian Meadows? Do they count, or do we sweep them under the rug, because they don't fit the "working lines" stereotype?

motorgypsy

02-25-2008, 04:45 AM

You're preaching to the choir here. If it's fino fino, it's fino fino regardless of pedigree. Do I think you can teach fino fino? Only if the mindset and talent are there already. An Olympic athlete needs a great coach but a great coach needs great raw talent to produce an Olympic athlete. No different for our horses. And talent shows up sometimes totally unexpectedly and unpredictably. Of course I think you should breed for the best possible paso fino but the true greats are generally better than both parents. And that goes for cow horses or show horses.

Kerry W

02-25-2008, 04:58 AM

Not preaching to you MG's...just trying to find the logic here.

CarolU

02-25-2008, 01:23 PM

When is the last time a Meridian Meadows horse won the Fino Championship?

Do you not believe that when Cappuchino came here, he took the USA and the show world 'by storm' and changed dramatically what was popular in the show ring? And then Maraquita came and has raised the bar again. This is not just true in the USA but throughout the Mundial competition countries. The breed has evolved.

I think it's been said several times on this thread that the original horses were shown and won Championships. I'm not sure why you don't understand that no one is disputing that. But the USA PF show ring is nothing like it was in the 70's or early 80's. Those were the Foundation line horses and their offspring. The breed has changed, and so has the show ring. This has been stated by many people in this thread and others. What is so hard to understand?

So you also believe I can take Missy Big Butt and turn her into a Champion Fino Mare like Maraquita?

Cindy

02-25-2008, 03:16 PM

When was the last time a MM horse won in fino? Are you freakin' serious. Do you have any idea how long it has been since there WAS a MM? For God's sake, of course it has been a long time. But if you look at the papers of many, many show horses of today you will find, way back there right where they belong, the horses that won 30 years ago. Got that number, that was 30 YEARS AGO. Most of them are dead. Of course they are not winning any more.

motorgypsy

02-25-2008, 03:57 PM

True Carol - but if by some freak of nature, Missy Big Butt's daughter IS fino fino, then I certainly wouldn't say - OH NO we can't show her - her pedigree is wrong. Judge the horse first. That's all I'm saying.

People have been breeding fino to fino for years and years and gotten nothing like Cappy or Maraquita. And then suddenly there they are. And many times the full brother and sister are no where near as good. Go figure!

CarolU

02-25-2008, 04:11 PM

:crazy: What is this, tag team arguing? So let me rephrase and type slower: When is the last time a horse with MM lines won the Fino Championship?

You know Ochoa lines are just as old and still winning in the show ring.

motorgypsy

02-25-2008, 04:19 PM

Sure but they're mixed with other stuff and it's the mix that is great. Resorte III or IV wouldn't win in fino today. As you said - the breed has evolved. I just hope we don't evolve it out of being "paso fino".

There are a ton of Ochoa horses that aren't winning in the show ring don't forget. You kind of have to look at the numbers bred too. You would hope if you breed your stallion to every paso fino mare in Colombia that you would get a few decent offspring???

SandyMM

02-25-2008, 04:27 PM

CarolU

02-25-2008, 04:38 PM

Carol Nelson

02-25-2008, 05:04 PM

I don't think Beverly Frick would mind me posting these...this is La Castellana de Casta, a double Castellano granddaughter, and mother of my stallion, Rojo Tejas. This is a show mare and she produces show offspring...
These show her participating in team penning, pulling a "calf", and even mounted shooting.

Lois York

02-25-2008, 05:45 PM

I'm not saying that these aren't great show horses as well as "working horses". Mine have grand parents that are winners in the ring. I'm just saying that the parents of MY horses aren't winners in the ring. And having the backgound they have, they make wonderful working horses, Meghan is going to be working with them too. I remember yrs ago in the magazines they showed a man in a wheelchair with a pinto paso fino. I can't even remember if it was a mare or a gelding come to think of it.

CarolU

02-25-2008, 07:11 PM

Apparently, there is a long and outstanding tradition of diversifying and specializing of Paso Finos in the United States -- even from the very beginning.

Again, there is a history in the USA of how the horses migrated from the Gulf Coastal areas, the Atlantic seaboard and Florida. Allot of these breeders have passed away or retired from pasos. "de Verde", "donde es", "que tal", "del Caribe", "de vez", "de omega", "LaCE", "EZ", "Vivo-Yo", "Cabildo", "WW", "SL", "CJ, "sin par", "LTD", "del Cardo" "del Rosa", "Royal", "Forest Cabin"...then there was the next era "Cabal", "Bravo", "Flint Oak", "Calidad". Of course we had other breeders such as "del Juncal", "el Batey", "Continental", "Lakehart", "del Mistico", "Estrella" "Estaban", "de Santa Cruz", "de Besilu", "Springtime", "Tijodee", "Elan", "International", "de Don Francisco" ....now more modern farm names I don't even try to remember. There were many more individuals that didn't use a farm suffix on their horses particularly the Puerto Rican breeders.

Everyone of them has produced for whatever market you think you are in. Many of them were the original importers. I don't believe they were counseled by Dave Jones before their purchases or imported only from cattle ranches or plantation farms. None of these importers discussed their purchases among each other to outline a breeding program or marketing program for the USA. Some focused on color, some on showing, some on all around horses, some on keeping pure strains, some didn't have any particular design. When plane loads of horses from Ramey AFB landed, the people grabbed their stock and head their separate ways.

The second wave of importation created a perceived need to niche a market and this is when we started to hear phrases such as "American paso fino", "American pleasure horse", and other little catchy phrases. It may come as a surprise to a few, but some of the most aggressive marketers for this phrase weren't Americans. I often wonder why that is because some of the breeders are now concentrating on the puros again and don't utter these phrases anymore. Now there's been some suggesting to call pintos the "American paso fino" because it's still not accepted by most Hispanic breeders but we Americans love them. The whole idea kinda exudes a disrespect I don't care for. But hey, I'm not a pinto breeder so maybe it's time for another little catchy phrase. You won't find the suggestion here but it's been a discussion in other forums.

In this second wave of importations there were also bloodlines with limited access and they weren't necessarily marketed as horses for "American" tastes or ideals. Breeding fees went from $500 to $1500 and some up to $5000. Capuchino, Cancionero, Plebeyo were high dollar breeding fees. Bochica, Contrapunto, Resorte IV were king and the bloodlines were available but for a price.

Suddenly the paso fino breed experienced a huge flux in trends and fashion because of refreshment. Of course with this, came a huge advertising campaign to buy certain horses for their bloodlines. Everyone knows the addage: "new and improved".

Through all of this were some underhanded exchanges, FBI raids on farms, bad deals, hoodwinked buyers, which built up a resentment and negativity in this breed that every new person gets a good dose of it whether they want it or not. There was a push not to allow imported horses to be registered but their offspring could be. There was a push to allow registration but not allow them to show. There was a push not to allow any horse with 3 generations of pasos in the pedigree to be registered, no blanks. Also a push not to allow any horse with any other ancestor of a different modality to be registered.

Problem though, as I have repeatedly said, there were no big plans by the original importers about all of this. The association kinda winged it. Dave Jones didn't stay long with Meridian Meadows. Him and Colin parted ways pretty early on. I believe Dave said he lasted about a handful of years, left, while the farm went on. He told me he got tired of being a sales person; it was too stressful and he didn't like the pressure to get horses ready for sale. There are trainers all over my area that worked for Dave as a trainer at one time or another. Colin remarried, dispersed his herd and that ended the paso fino era at Meridian Meadows. I don't know if anyone replaced Dave's position because the farm went on for some time after Dave left. Dave left under good terms, he said he'd just rather work horses and not worry about the sales part.

Funny, because I heard many comments about Dave Jones at shows. It was said he could get even the best gaited paso to trot and a few more comments insinuating Dave didn't know pasos or gait. When I met him for the first time, it didn't take me long to realize not only does he know horses, he knows gait, and he knows pasos. He's also a great story teller and has a bit of a local reputation as such.

Thanks to Dave's authorship, however, he and the horses have become legendary. More so than other breeders and other farms who were before his time and still active long after the "que tal" program died. You won't read about the importation stories of George and Cece or about Pat Gieger and her adventures. None of the military have sat down and wrote their experiences of horses breaking loose in the plane, the horses being shot and then bodies dumped over the water. I remember when loaded ours up on the plane, it was made clear that if a horse got rank, broke loose, it was a dead horse. We weren't flying in planes designed for equine passangers. There were no special boxes to lift and load or fancy ramps. I only heard second hand stories of what it was like for the NE to ship horses from PR by boat.

Maybe if they had written their memoirs, we'd have more people remembering that the paso fino breed didn't rely on a couple of paso fino farms and not everyone who imported their horses at that time were breeding for an American pleasure horse market from cow horses. My family didn't and most of the importers I personally knew didn't. Yet inspite of our ignorance and just plain dumbness about our market, the breed prospered. Unfortuantely due to our ignorance and just plain dumbness, we've also made some grevious mistakes that we need to rectify if we are to remain in the market place. We can't assume that our market is limited to the USA or that USA bred horses do not sell outside the country or that our demographics are concerned only with American riders.

Well you can, but I'm not. I'm following the lead of our business schools and industries. There's a reason why Chinese is the main language taught now in classes. ;) I betcha if the instructors tell all those gringos not to make a certain gesture or speak a certain phrase to prevent hard feelings, those students are bright enough to understand if they do, they'll probably blow the deal. At the same time I betcha our Chinese counterparts are giving the same lecture to their students too. Novel.

Apparently none of this started with Dave Jones or anyone on this board. It's been going on all along.

You guys are so funny, arguing 11 pages about the term "Working Lines."

britzlove

02-25-2008, 08:11 PM

Sorry Sandy, now that you put it up that way I see the confusion.

Lemme try, like MG, I think individuals should be evaluated, and that all paso finos can "work" pretty much, maybe not the best, but if your goal is to beat the QHs in team penning or cutting, you should probably take a long hard look at why you want pasos. If you want to team pen with your friends and have a good time, maybe even win a little, especially if you were at a function with other pasos, then just about any paso could do that. You want to trail ride, just about any paso could do that (Resorte IV was trail ridden). You want to jump, well, I actually have some hot opinions about jumping them, but lets say if you are of a very slight build and you want to jump a paso like an Oldenburg, ok, but don't expect to out do the Oldenburg
in many aspects. Just about any paso will hop a fence.

And seriously, the real endurance competitor is a rarity, and something in my opinion would have to be the hardest thing to breed for, and the least successful breed to create thing. Just like breeding for fino, it really isn't like you can just pay your money and get one. But just about any paso can go on long tough rides. The top level competitor, probably not.

And, yes Carol I guess if you were willing to put the time in, you could show your horse, but you are unable to comprehend much of that. Put in some show training, some polish on her, and tell me you couldn't take her to a show. Now, you can't make her a fino champion, unless she's really the top level.

I'm 100% sick and tired of having to read that the showring is all about quick and tight, and Capuchino and Maraquita. I saw some REALLY nice horses in pleasure classes last year, none of them quick and tight like Capuchino or Maraquita. None of them nut jobs with loose wires. Nor though, did I see many sloppy horses doing well though. So that's a good thing.

So for this thread, all lines are working lines. But, if you're looking for a horse, you should probably get help from a knowledgable experienced professional of high regard, or spend plenty of time evaulating their (the horses) potential for your desire. If you want a top level competitor, you gamble, or you go find the most likely to succeed.