que tal horses

[Cindy]

Some written history for those who are interested in facts. I have copied some pages from the 1977 and 1979 National Show programs that pertain to que tal horses of the time. All facts and figures pertain only to show horses as that is all that people cared to keep track of. LOL

The first is a breeding horse production list compiled in 1977. As you can see, Hilachas was by far the best producer of show horses in his time as follows.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431977_standings_2-med.jpg

The next page is the list of all horses who had won their TOP at that time. As you can see, que tall horses did pretty well.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431977_TOPs_2.jpg

And then from 1979, in the middle of this page you will see the Performance Mares class. Notice who the sponsor is and how many que tal horses are listed as past winners.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431979_Performance_2.jpg

And in case you think they were not Fino horses as well, here is the listing for Fino Mares.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431979_Fino_2.jpg

And last but not least, my Mom's favorite que tal horse of all time. Please note the classes in which he was Champion. Ladies and gentlemen, Garbo que tal.....

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/43843Garbo_2-med.jpg

Sorry I had to do links. For some reason it would not let me post as pics.:mecry: And I hope you can read the text well enough. If not, you are welcome to come over and peruse my old stuff. Lots of memories in there. And lots of facts too. :duh:

[motorgypsy]

Thanks so much for sharing all the great info. We didn't start following paso finos until 1984 so this is GREAT stuff for us.

Here are your pictures.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431977_standings_2-med.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431977_TOPs_2.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431979_Performance_2.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/438431979_Fino_2.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/43843Garbo_2-med.jpg

By the way - if you want to enlarge any of these just save them to your desktop and open them with a photoshop type program. Then you can zoom them.

[Cindy]

I could not read Performance mares and Fino mares from the last post so here are new links. Hopefully these will be bigger.

Performance mares.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/43843performance_mares_1979-med.jpg

And Fino Mares.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/43843Fino_Mares_1979-med.jpg

[Cindy]

Thanks MGs. :v:

[motorgypsy]

:biggrin:a la orden:rolleyes:

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/43843performance_mares_1979-med.jpg

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/43843Fino_Mares_1979-med.jpg

Oh - Kyle wants to know who the babe is on the horse in the top picture:biggrin:

[SandyMM]

Most likely Nikki DiPietro.

[Cindy]

Now that's being constructive. :rolleyes:

[jodiTowne]

Thanks for the info. I am a fan of que jal horse as my 30 yo gelding is an Ejemplo que tal (did I botch that?) son. He is my love.

What is the history behind que tal. Is it a family name?? I was researching another que tal horse and it didn't seem related to others.

[Mellifluous]

From the way I understand it, "que tal" is just the suffix that the farm used to id horses from their farm. The que tal horses are not all related, they just came from the same farm. Does that make sense?

My Phoebe is a Ejemplo que tal granddaughter. Her pedigree is not up on pasoregistry but this is her full sister's

http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=117063

[Cindy]

Ejemplo was an outstanding horse. I tried to get a foal from him when he was in California but could not get my mare settled. He was known for producing great mares. Most of his sons were gelded. Who is the son that you have?

Que tal was the farm suffix for Meridian Meadows owned by the Phipps in Florida. All horses with the que tal name were either bred there of they owned them at one time. All the stories that people post about Dave Jones were about when he worked for the Phipps and went to Colombia to look at horses for the farm.

[jodiTowne]

My horses name is Valedor Bojo. Can't remember his dams name offhand. Bred by Wendy Spring. Not sure of his history other than he was at a farm in southern NY for many years doing not much of anything. My friend bought the whole barn full and Val's son was not broke at the age of 14! I acquired Val when he was 17. Don't think he knew much about being ridden either. We had a fun time. :biggrin: Here he is age 29. He has been a great trail partner.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e286/joditowne/Zoojune07038.jpg

[motorgypsy]

For those who missed the point of this thread it is to show that in the paso fino breed there is no line separating successful working and show horses. The rightfully called working lines have been quite successful in the show ring and the reverse is also true.

Both our endurance mares are successful show horses. Both are a mix of fino and non fino lines. One is naturally fino, the other is not. Both are dynamite in anything they try.

Why this would bother anyone I don't know. It's just one more selling point. Our breed can do it all and has so much more to offer than breeds that are more specialized. We have a huge number of colors, body types, sizes and temperaments.

EVERY barn needs at least ONE PASO FINO!

What would I like to see all of us use our energy on? Stamping out REAL training abuses like tying the head to one side for hours, holding back food and water, beating a horse unmercifully, and so on. I'd also like to see a push to eliminate 3 year olds ridden in the show ring.

While we're sniping at one another the REAL BAD GUYS are out there. They're not being dealt with. And the horses they turn out hurt our sales and give our breed a bad name.

[CarolU]

Actually Nancy, I don't read it that way at all. As I read it, the original horses brought to the USA were (mostly) not show lines, but their working "transportation" Paso Finos. Of course these horses won the shows in the 70's, they were the only horses here, being bred, and marketed at the time! This doesn't change that these horses were originally "working line" horses.

Then in the 80's along came Cappuchino, and with his popularity, a big influx of Colombian show-line horses. This is still the trend and why we see a predominance of Colombian show horses in PFHA shows.

There are many people working to preserve these "Legacy" Paso Fino lines. There are many of us, who prefer these Paso Finos.

[SandyMM]

I don't understand why people continue to think that horses are related just because they have the same farm name added to their name - it's a _farm name_ - it isn't a 'family' name..

Some farm names I knew early on were de Vez, Mako, and LaCE. Some of the horses were related, many were not. That's also like _assuming_ LaCE horses were all Puerto Rican (or Colombian). LaHood brought in PPRs, but he also had pure Colombians (Mar de Plata and Coral LaCE).

Names that do indicate a common bloodline would be those like Coral's Viajero de Vez, Corals John Henry de Vez, and Coral's Don Dorado de Vez - which indicate not only a common farm name, but also a direct offspring of Coral LaCE.

[motorgypsy]

The point is Carol that the so called Colombian show lines all came from work lines. Colombians used their horses. There were no cars. Colombia is mountainous, has jungles and flat lands. Several strains were developed for use in certain areas. The lowlands horses had a lower gait. The mountain horses had a slightly higher gait that was more piston like. People seem to like the gait of the mountain horses the best. These horses had to hold up. People's lives depended on their agility, tractability, sturdiness and endurance. Colombian Paso finos ARE working horses.

The Puerto Rican paso finos developed somewhat independently but I suspect they and the Colombian horses are closer genetically than we think. Again Puerto Rico has mountains and flatlands so their horses developed a particular gait suited for their use. These horses were also all working horses.

Do you really think 50 years is going to make that much difference in the genetics of the breed back before ET? Some of the horses were working horses in the early 1900's, some in the middle and some in the late 1900's but all come from working stock.

The que tal horses were bought, not because of their pedigree but because they had traits that the farm owner wanted. Their pedigree was diverse. This does not mean that they cannot be shown or are not show quality. Working horses don't have to have to be ugly, have bad conformation and bad gait. In fact a badly conformed working horse won't hold up and bad gait is uncomfortable so the working is more likely to be conformationally correct, sound and smooth gaited. If working horses have good conformation and good gait they can be shown and shown successfully if they have that "something special" that says LOOK AT ME!

But maybe your correctly conformed, well gaited paso fino doesn't do the "gait of choice" for fino, performance or pleasure classes in today's show ring or have that special something that makes for a show winner. Today's gait of choice happens to be tight and piston like. Does this mean you can't show your correctly gaited well conformed paso fino? No it doesn't. There are plenty of classes you can show them in and do well.

Does this mean that because your correctly conformed well gaited paso fino shouldn't be bred because it doesn't do the "gait of choice" for today or have that something special that draws attention? No it doesn't. Variety is one of the strengths of our breed and I've always said that the small but discriminating breeder will be the salvation of our breed in years to come because they hold the key to genetic diversity. But they all come from the same stock. They all come from working stock. Some just worked more recently than others.

But if I were advertising a paso fino for sale that I bred from my own horses I would certainly list all possibilities for things they could do including show bloodlines, working horse bloodlines, parents ridden in endurance, hunter pace, shown, ridden in parades, speed event winners and so on. Because they're all true.

Yes there are some people who think that any paso fino that doesn't win in the show ring is inferior. But I personally could not care less what this type of person thinks because they obviously are very ignorant. Some of the very best paso finos never see the inside of the show ring. But this doesn't mean they couldn't win IF the owner chose to go this route. And this doesn't mean that the show winners cannot be retired and sent off to work on cattle ranches. Some of them have done this very thing and been very successful.

It's a great breed and the use the owner chooses for their horses has no bearing whatsoever on the value of the horse or it's ability in the show ring or as a working horse or as a performance horse in the true sense of the word.

So for those of you just starting out in paso finos - if you are interested in doing a particular event with your horse - shop for that capability. If you want a paso fino that can do them all - shop for that capability. But do not expect to walk into the show ring and win with a $2000 horse unless you just got lucky and someone died or went broke. A PFHA show horse takes long months of training to do well even if they match the flavor of the month because they must be perfect in the ring. And do not expect to take your new horse into an endurance ride without doing some conditioning. And do not expect your horse to behave perfectly when you first move them to a new farm. They are frightened, lonely and annoyed at having their life upturned without their having any control.

So Carol I applaud those who breed correctly conformed, well gaited, tractable, intelligent paso finos even if they don't happen to match the show flavor of the month. These paso finos are in NO way inferior. What I don't applaud is the idea that those who do happen to match the "flavor of the month" are inferior. They are not. They are just one more flavor in this banquet offered by the paso fino breed.

Some successful show horses are great working horse prospects, some, great speed show prospects, some,great endurance prospects. Some are not. But the fact that they are good show horses should not prejudice anyone against them or for them unless they are in particular looking for a show horse. They are first and foremost paso finos, not show paso finos.

[CarolU]

Really? Wow. When did they get cars in Colombia? Only recently? I always thought it was a modern country.

Nancy, I'm not arguing with you. I'm just re-reading all of Dave Jone's articles and have to take his word for it that he knew what he was looking at and for, and knew the difference between the transportation horses and the show horses at that time. I think his eye and my eye were trained the same way, because I certainly like the horses he selected and their decendents.

Don't shoot ME! I wasn't the one who asked the original question about where the idea of "Working lines" came from. It is from these writings.

[Cindy]

Yes, Carol, the Phipps did bring some great horses over from Colombia. That is why they were such good show horses. George LaHood also brought some great Colombian and Puerto Rican horses over. Rosalie MacWilliams, the Ratliffs, Jacobsens and Zielgers were all of great influence in the early years. They all helped to forge the way of the Paso Fino in this country. They loved and hated one another alternately. They were fierce competitors always. But they all had one thing in common, they chose the Paso Fino horse to care for, promote, ride, breed and show. If one were to talk to each of them seperately, one would get as many different stories as the number of people that they spoke with. And one would find that each had different tales to tell about the different horses that they all knew. Some would be good and some would be bad. One person might tell you that a particular horse was fantastic while another told you that that same horse was horrendous. You see, what seems to have gotten lost over the years is the fact that the early Paso Fino people were very competitive with one another and would often spread stories about the other peoples horses that were not entirely true. So it all depends on who one chooses to listen to or believe and it is best if one wants to find the whole truth, or at least as close to the whole truth as is possible 30 or 40 years later, that one research the memories of as many people as one can. That is, of course, only if one wants to know the truth. Not, however, if one is happy believing story. I will tell you this though, if you go talking to any of the old Paso Fino people, you had better have a lot of time on your hands. I have not yet met one who was not a great story teller. And they all love to talk about horses. :v:

[Centauress]

Both our endurance mares are successful show horses. Both are a mix of fino and non fino lines. One is naturally fino, the other is not. Both are dynamite in anything they try.

Why this would bother anyone I don't know. It's just one more selling point. Our breed can do it all and has so much more to offer than breeds that are more specialized. We have a huge number of colors, body types, sizes and temperaments.

EVERY barn needs at least ONE PASO FINO!



Amen sista!

[Cindy]

And, just for the record, the question was not where the idea of "working lines" came from. That was a different thread so please address that question over there if you would not mind too terribly much. The question here was about que tal horses being known as "working horses" as opposed to "show horses". I understand the confusion but, please, two different questions. Candice asked one in her thread. And then Terry asked the other in Candice's thread to which I replied over there but apparently Terry did not in fact desire an answer to her question. I really think that Candice did though so go over there and answer it if that is what you were wanting to discuss. This thread is for discussing que tal horses. Thanks.

[Centauress]

Yes, Carol, the Phipps did bring some great horses over from Colombia. That is why they were such good show horses. George LaHood also brought some great Colombian and Puerto Rican horses over. Rosalie MacWilliams, the Ratliffs, Jacobsens and Zielgers were all of great influence in the early years. They all helped to forge the way of the Paso Fino in this country. They loved and hated one another alternately. They were fierce competitors always. But they all had one thing in common, they chose the Paso Fino horse to care for, promote, ride, breed and show. If one were to talk to each of them seperately, one would get as many different stories as the number of people that they spoke with. And one would find that each had different tales to tell about the different horses that they all knew. Some would be good and some would be bad. One person might tell you that a particular horse was fantastic while another told you that that same horse was horrendous. You see, what seems to have gotten lost over the years is the fact that the early Paso Fino people were very competitive with one another and would often spread stories about the other peoples horses that were not entirely true. So it all depends on who one chooses to listen to or believe and it is best if one wants to find the whole truth, or at least as close to the whole truth as is possible 30 or 40 years later, that one research the memories of as many people as one can. That is, of course, only if one wants to know the truth. Not, however, if one is happy believing story. I will tell you this though, if you go talking to any of the old Paso Fino people, you had better have a lot of time on your hands. I have not yet met one who was not a great story teller. And they all love to talk about horses. :v:


Well said. And that is why history is "his story"...how someone remembers it.

[Cindy]

Jodi, this is for you. From the 1977 Nationals program. Ejemplo que tal. Your boy would have been in utero at this time. :D

[stella]

I am one of the lucky ones, an "old timer," that not only owned a que tal horses(including "my heart," Favorito que tal, who btw was not primarily a showhorse), remember seeing many of the top que tal horses work, a number of the imported mares(owned one too),got to ride a number of them(including Ejemplo) but also of the 39 horses I now own, 37 have que tal blood, including a number of horses with at least or more than 50% such lines.

The way in which the Meridian Meadows program was structured is the epitome of what a really quality breeding program is about. Despite having alot of horses and numerous bloodlines, including a number of active breeding stallions, not just one......there was no mistaking a "que tal" bred horse amongst others, they all had a special "signature," a incredible consistency of quality including a particular "look" -conformation and movement,because its based on specific detailed goals-a clear vision-which is what the art of good breeding is about.

What makes these horses "timeless" is that number one, these horses were very balanced in conformation in every way- proportion of the parts, functionally good conformation, and between degree substance and refinement as well. Both the "typey" conformation that is specific to the breed's movement, plus the more "universal" elements of structure that make a horse strong and durable were addressed. This made for "strong machines" to be able to have outstanding natural gait, the inherent balanced structure to be able to have good range of this gait, and have utmost potential to develop it to excellence thru training, for whatever purpose. Of course, intelligence, correct brio and a willing disposition were also important elements....
ALL of these things are basic fundamentals that are crucial to quality breeding, and NEVER go out of fashion. They were and are important yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and are elements that helpful to the welfare of the breed, as well as the individual animal's well-being and longevity. They are elements recognized timelessly as quality anywhere in the world.

I'll have to post more later, but one thing that's not mentioned in this thread or the other is, the way in which the fads and fashions of the showring has changed-the pendulum swings! This isnt anything new, or particular to this breed, but can affect both improvements and setbacks.

BTW Cindy, Garbo was out of the same mare as Favorito, as was Bandito...Sombra-three Top Ten Sires. Its too bad he wasnt bred more, but actually, Nikki told me he was usually boarded, and he was more a family project(I last spoke to her about 2-3 years ago). My favorite all-time mare was Dierdre que tal, who won in almost everything(BF, Fino, Perf), and was absolutely heaven to watch move. I first saw her as a schooling horse that Cese brought to a big all breed show that I'd gotten 5 Paso Classes into(yeah, I volunteered to chair it, thats how!), they were the first PF classes in MD. I also remember, more so than her spectacular Nationals performances, Cese demo'ing her and then putting his dad Don Cunda(a famous PR trainer that remained in PR with PR horses)on Dierdre in a demo in Moosup, Connecticut, and she became absolutely electric, I'd never seen anything like it, I'll never forget it the rest of my life. (she did all three gaits too, it was just the precision and locomotion of her movements, unbelievably exciting!)

And, I remember Bo. His mom was the mount of Wendy's husband Skip, who was a paraplegic, and she was especially trained for him(she was PPR)....he was a tall sturdily built man, needed a big horse. Bo was supposed to eventually be trained for her replacement, and I think he may have been.

[lisa l aka marci]

And, I remember Bo. His mom was the mount of Wendy's husband Skip, who was a paraplegic, and she was especially trained for him(she was PPR)....he was a tall sturdily built man, needed a big horse. Bo was supposed to eventually be trained for her replacement, and I think he may have been.
I worked at Wendy's when she had Bo......who was the dam you are thinking about?

The first Paso I ever rode was Jovial......used to put a cut-back saddle on her and take her out trail riding from Wendy's house.......

[Laura S]

This is a great thread. I love hearing the history of our pasos! Especially from the people that were in the thick of it in the 70's, 80's.

What ever happened with Meridian Meadows? Where was is located?

[paintedhorizon]

Me too!

This is a great thread. I love hearing the history of our pasos! Especially from the people that were in the thick of it in the 70's, 80's.

[LynnG]

Since I know you like photos........ I can contribute some color to this thread (enjoy)

Here are a few Paso Finos I have ridden, trained, and/or owned with "Meridian meadows" or "que tal" line Paso Finos. I'll highlight the MM lines.

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/scrapbook/images/pasifloraLG.jpg
Pasiflora Sin Par DOB 1973
El Pastor x Gacela Sin Par Gacela was imported by MM
Photo: 1980 PFOBA Natls

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/scrapbook/images/cortesiaLG.jpg
Cortesia que tal DOB 1968
Mahoma x Rosada
Photo: 1980 NC State Fair Show, Raleigh, NC

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/gallery/enviadoraRide1982.jpg
Enviadora que tal DOB 1970
Mahoma x Mora Azul
Photo: Gracewood Farm - 1982

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/scrapbook/images/aragonesaLG.jpg
Aragonesa de Belmonte DOB 1980
Belmonte x Llama Viva
Photo: 1980 NC State Fair Show, Raleigh

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/novia/buglynGait.jpg
Novia Dulce de Gracia DOB 1991
Imponente La Estrella (Cortes que tal) x Dorada del Rosa (Ejemplo que tal)
Photo: 2005

and my current senior stallion Emperador La Estrella is 100% MM lines...
DOB 1981 (Emperador's 27th birthday is in a few weeks March 6th)

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/emperador/EmpRide2_openHouse11_05web.jpg
Photo: 2005 Gracewood Farm Open House

Here are a few more Paso Finos I have bred with "Meridian meadows" or "que tal" line Paso Finos.... (farm name way back then was "Lorien"). We bred several foals by Ejemplo que tal, Belmonte, Hidalgo Soltero que tal (full bro to Ejemplo) and Ganador del Rosa. I don't have photos online of all of them (yet)...but are listed here: http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/scrapbook/scrapbook2.html

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/gallery/IdoloLorien_TryonNC1982.jpg
Idolo Lorien DOB 1981
Faldero que tal x Pasiflora Sin Par
Photo: Tryon NC Piedmont Show 1982

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/scrapbook/images/ellesarLG.jpg
Ellesar Lorien
Ganador del Rosa (Hilachas x Cucuracha) x Cortesia que tal
Photo: 1986 PFHA Natls, Asheville, NC

and guess this one needs updating too ...... 5 more "newer" MM Emperador foals:
http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/scrapbook/scrapbook.html.

http://www.geocities.com/lynngallup/gracewoodfarm/images/gallery/Parade_ArwenPasiflora.jpg
and lastly an Ejemplo que tal daughter we bred Arwen Lorien (bay on left)
and Pasiflora Sin Par
Photo: Durham NC Christmas Parade on the campus of Duke University in 1980.

Guess I need to make a new goal this year to scan old horse photos and update my Scrapbook pages. ;)

Got some pics of me riding Garbo que tal somewhere, and also Huevo que tal (at MM Ranch in FL) who was Criol que tal x Endora. We had considered buying him...he ended up being sold to CO. Lots of my old pics are color slides, so not so easy to scan. :confused: and color faded.

Lynn :D :grayhorse:
http://www.classiclegacypasofino.com

[Abejita]

Lynn
I have a visioneer One Touch 9420 scanner and it does great with slides and the basic Picture It program is great for adjusting color on even the faded ones.
I just did a mess of Family Christmas slides from the late 60's up to the 80s for Mom's Christmas present ( I made her a DVD slide show Thats actually the reason I bought the scanner) I used to have an HP that did slides but I like this one better ( had to get used to it at first) I think it cost right around 100.00 plus tax

[pnalley]

Back in the early 70's the que tal horses were extremely popular. I actually show Bandito several times. He was a very gentle, kind animal. He was heavier bodied then the more typical "que tal". We showed in APF back then and Betty Cease had a horse Espejo que tal that won quite a bit and her personal ride was Fiogon que tal. I also got to ride several others (none as famous as most mentioned). Famula, Fenda, gosh I can't remember all the names. I always like the way they named successive foal crops with the same first letter.

I remember them to be very nice horses.

[CarolU]

Paula, Stella, Lynn, you all make me jealous! It must have been very exciting to be able to ride these great horses.

I know these lines were very popular out here. Most horses go back to these foundation horses and the PR mares brought over to start the breed in America. I spent some time with Dave Hyatt and he quickly lost me in all the horses and lines, but it is quite the history.

Considering the predominance of Paso Finos in the East now, I was surprised at how quickly they became popular in the West also. This is all SO interesting!

Keep up with the pictures!

[LynnG]

HI Sheri
I have a slide scanner. The main thing is they need to be "professionally cleaned" as there was alot of dust "particles" when I scanned at a high resolution to get a bigger print than slide size. And then whether which side has any "dust" slide emulsion side or the other...

I have probably 200 slides from the mid-70's to early 1980's from farms visited, including LaHood's, Meridan Meadows, Jacobsen's in Homestead, Greener Pastures, Mary Wadsworth in CO....:o

[pnalley]

I just wish I knew then what I know now about the breed. I was exposed to and rode many of the "greats". Of course back then they were just another good horse:o. Possibly if I had known what I was riding I wouldn't have enjoyed it so much.

[paintedhorizon]

I'm jealous too Carol. Though I have ridden Angelica, she's the last daughter of Favorito! She is awesome!

[Candice Burger]

This is a great thread. I love hearing the history of our pasos! Especially from the people that were in the thick of it in the 70's, 80's.

What ever happened with Meridian Meadows? Where was is located?

Meridian Meadows still exists. Tallahassee, Florida. The Phipps family is still active in horses of all types. However, when Colin remarried, Joyce was more interested in hunter/jumper horses, so the pasos were sold off. Criol que tal and a few favorites remained. Criol could occasionally be seen from the road as you drove by in one of the front pastures. I recall the year when the MM paso sign was taken down. :frown:

MM also imported a Resorte III horse, Belmonte; a Desvelo grandson; Relicario de Arango; a Dan Danilo grandget; and so many more. When I see Sin Verguenza mares, I'm always impressed.

A few that I remember well:

Ami que tal
Banana que tal
Bandito que tal
Choco que tal
Cimaron que tal
Cohete que tal
Cortes que tal
Decius que tal
Deidre que tal
Disipulo que tal
Ejemplo que tal
Erectora que tal
Espectro que tal
Estaben que tal
Faldero que tal
Favorito que tal
Gallopa que tal
Guapa que tal
Hidalgo Soltero que tal
Jota que tal
Kera que tal
Noticia que tal
Quido que tal
Susie que tal
Criol que tal
Dahae que tal
Encantadora que tal

...and so many more

[LynnG]

Candace, I don't beleive "Relicario de Arango" was ever imported to here. Guala was imported in foal to him though and that result was Cortes que tal. Cortes is his only offspring I believe that was here.That horse belonged to Dr. Arango there, and my mare that has Cortes as grandsire shows "Relicario de Arango"'s sire to be "Fakir" and dam is "Marsellesa". There was a photo of this Relicario in one of Dave Jones' articles

There was another "Relicario" you are speaking of...one that was ridden across America.

I got a pic of that Meridan Meadows sign. Wonder where the original sign is today? In a back corner of a barn or shed? hmm...

When I was there at MM (1980).... Criol was there, a Criol x Mora gray filly, Zaraza (Erectora's dam), Balonada, Cauca, Enamorada que tal (Mahoma daughter), Huevo que tal, and a few others. Saw also a Sin Verquenza son in a nearby pasture, probably the last one...he was a hunkering boy.

memories.......... of the horses, can't remember who showed them to us though.

[Candice Burger]

That's right about Relicario the sire of Cortes que tal. Guala was pregnant when she was imported by him. There's another...but I'm not sure it's the same one you mentioned. This is the one I'm thinking of http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=102447

I've moved to Tallahassee in 1985 and I don't think there were many pasos left by then. Criol, maybe one or two more. There were several Sin Verguenza mares in the area at the time. No one could tell me about this horse at all. I asked locally and a few Colombian trainers and breeders about this horse. Those mares....I wish there were more.

Pat Gieger created her farm around Mariachi, Hilachas X Maria Bonita; Maria Bonita, and Kera que tal. She also had Del Caribe's Amigo que tal--obviously since back then you weren't allow to take a farm suffix off, so a few farms would attach it as a prefix instead. She incorporated her core PPR mares she had imported, but if you search "del Caribe" on pasoregistry.com, there's allot of horses going back to those three horses.

Everyone knew an Ejemplo horse because of the head he would always stamp his offspring with it. One of the prettiest heads in the breed.

[moonrize]

MM is now a high class boarding barn. Part of the property was donated to be Elinor Klapp Phipps Horse park - home to the Red Hills Horse Trials (a trial used on the trail to the Olympics).

A few pasos remain out at a boarding farm and a few at their plantation. These few are oldie-goldies and are well cared for. I was sad when they quit breeding and promoting the pasos. :mecry:

[LynnG]

Candace, that is the Relicario I'm thinking of... that was in this country. The IPFS magazine featured him now and then in ads.

Rancho del Rosa in Tryon NC, Dr. Ted and Marie Rozema, started out with many of the "que tal" line horses in the mid-1970's, and did alot of showing then. They had both Ejemplo que tal and Ganador del Rosa... Ejemplo was the main stud. Ganador was a 3x Natl Champion in Conformation and Performance and full brother to GNC Performance Escusha que tal... (Hilachas x Cucuracha). Ejemplo had numerous Natl & Res. Champion titles also. Their other stallions included the PPR stallion Toledo. They had the que tal imported mares Endora (dam of Bandolero Royal), Salpicada (dam of Belmonte), Yoconda (dam of Marichalo, Don Cunda, Illuminares) and Morita (dam of NC Fantasia del Rosa by Cortes que tal and Maja del Rosa). Cese Figuroa was the trainer there then. We bought Cortesia que tal from Rancho del Rosa, as well as a blue roan colt Gandalf del Rosa (Ejemplo x Morita).

Another que tal line horse in NC were Disipulo que tal (Belmonte x Rosada) at Fred and Edna Moretti, Startown Stables also had a Belmonte son, and stood Faldero que tal and Cortes que tal (both Guala sons) for a year or so. There were others, but these come to my mind at this time.

[Candice Burger]

MM is now a high class boarding barn. Part of the property was donated to be Elinor Klapp Phipps Horse park - home to the Red Hills Horse Trials (a trial used on the trail to the Olympics).

A few pasos remain out at a boarding farm and a few at their plantation. These few are oldie-goldies and are well cared for. I was sad when they quit breeding and promoting the pasos. :mecry:

Sally, maybe we should team up and go see what's left; talk to Phipps and visit Dave again, before it's too late.

I remember Ejemplo at Rancho del Rosa before he was sold. De Tomaria farms had Faldero que tal, Decius que tal and Venus, the Eblis mare. At the time I visited, Velada, Hermana, and Sombra Tomaria were young mares and beginning their production. I have the mares mixed in my mind, but I recall two, I think Velada and Sombra, were shown as well as Decius que tal. Faldero was essentially retired from showing and Decius was used allot for costume classes; he was basically retired from any serious competition by then because he was used for breeding quite a bit. Maybe I can't rememeber who was called what, but I still remember those young mares. Their phenotype, brio, gait, stature--very paso.

I had a colt up there being worked by a friend of mine and we traveled together to a few shows while I was in Missouri. Alvaro Iriate was still using Faldero que tal on occasion and he helped with the importation of Juan Juan to De Tomaria. Juan Juan hadn't been long at the farm. I probably witnessed his first mare cover in the USA. Juan Juan eventually dominated the breeding shed at the farm. ....but....I found this just this morning....http://www.pasoregistry.com/db/Tree.asp?ID=83923


I just wish I knew then what I know now about the breed. I was exposed to and rode many of the "greats". Of course back then they were just another good horse:o. Possibly if I had known what I was riding I wouldn't have enjoyed it so much.


..., which has been my point all along in a nutshell. They were great because we enjoyed them so much. We all start from the beginning, as we learn, as we evolve, mature in the breed, we come to appreciate each type, each flavor of the paso fino. No one treated a particular horse as "great"--perhaps a good ride, a good sire, a good producer. He was ridden, exercised, shown, bred and enjoyed; he was talked about, critiqued, scrutinized and appreciated. Horsemen appreciate good horses. It is the sharing of our experiences that makes it "great".

We can't bring back the horses, what we can do is share our experiences to begin a collective awareness of what they were, what they meant to us, how they contributed, so as we move forward, we remember not to try to mimic them but respect them for what they stood for. It is what they represent that we should respect and protect NOT the horse itself, because try as we may, we will never be able to duplicate these horses again. However, what we can do is duplicate what those horses stood for. What makes them "great" is that they shared themselves with us.

As anyone can see, the "que tal" horses are great not because of Meridian Meadows alone but because they were shared with so many others. Meridian Meadows introduced a group of horses, but it was the "del Caribe", the "de Tomaria", the "del Rosa", "sin par", "del Cardo", "del Campo", "Ltd.", "por cima" ... that used the horses besides "que tal". Lest we forget, if it were not for the generosity of others, there would be no "que tal". Que tal would not have become "great" if the horses had remained in Tallahassee, Florida only, bred by Phipps only, used for only their purpose. What makes "que tal" still great today, is horsemen saw the horses, used the horses for their own purposes.

If these horses had been marketed as anything other than a paso fino what would have happened? Would a certain breeder be univited because his use was different? Would a horse never see every opportunity because he was to be bred only for a specific type or performance? Would breeders have "mixed" the que tal horses for fear of incrimination? Any time we succumb to the tendency to categorize our horses, split them into groups, try to keep them separated, we essentially cut off the very life's blood of the breed. If Phipps had tried to be exclusive to the plantation market only, how many would have known a que tal horse? How many of us are plantation owners or work on a southern plantation? How many live close enough to a plantation to have knowledge of the horses? How many would have even been invited onto private lands of a plantation to see the horses?


It is not a sin to see the horses "mix" with the "new" blood. It's where they came from to begin with. Instead of treating them like a separate group, they deserve to continue to contribute as they can. In any way by any one for any purpose. We only need to look at the "que tal" horses to see this. It was not only Eblis mares and Hilachas stallions. Another time, another place, it could have been Hilachas sold and gelded not Sin Verguenza. If Dave had visited Colombia years earlier, it could have been Mahoma was much younger and Hilachas never born, never seen, and never imported. Time, place, people creates our "known" history of the horses. I am trying to encourage all of us to begin seeking the "unknown"--the experience that Pnalley speaks of---the kind we can't read or put into words but only live. Don't shut out parts of the breed because it's not your "thing". That ain't paso--it's not a "thing"--it is PASO FINO.

[Hacienda Radiante]

At least one of the Velada daughters is still productive... Here is my mare, La Gacela de Casta. Castellano on the top, Velada on the bottom. I believe she is the youngest Velada baby out there (young being a relative term, -grin-)and is due to foal in March. She is still a stunning mare with a sweet temperament. If I had the money and believed in doing such things this would be my candidate for cloning. If anyone has any old photos out there of Velada I would love to see them. This mare does not look like the other Castellano mares I've seen, so I suspect she might look like the old bloodlines.

[moonrize]

I just talked with Dave about a month or so ago. He's really starting to age and pretty much has someone with him all the time. I think we may be too late to really have any story "straight" now, though he has wonderful memories of the pasos and some great old home movies. He showed me one where he rode Mahoma (? I think) with his teeth and was doing some cutting. Also, quite a bit of a younger Joyce riding some pasos hunt seat over jumps. I really wish our association had someone on staff whose permanent job is to act as historian for us. Not just keeping track of registrations or what is reported in PFHW, but that keeps our history past and present to preserve for the future. It's just way too hodge-podge now.

[britzlove]

I have some cents to put in.

Firstly, how happy I am to find some threads with some appeal, I've been missing discussion so much.

Secondly, Moonrise, "I really wish our association had someone on staff whose permanent job is to act as historian for us"
I'd love to see a push to begin gathering a library of first hand accounts, letters, advertisements, personal breeding diaries etc. I'd even volunteer to help in any way possible, to try to tell the story of the paso fino. Fact checking, compliling, whatever was necessary. Good dream I suppose. I'm hopefully headed out to Deb's where I can read a bunch more old old paso magazines. Good thing she keeps a library for me.

Lastly, I have to say on a lighter note, that I'd like to ask whoever named a poor horse Banana, why? It's like standardbred names, and makes me giggle.

Britz

[Carol Nelson]

Hacienda Radiante (beautiful name, by the way)...here's my stallion's mama, La Castellana de Casta...she's a double Castellano granddaughter. She's a sweet, sweet mare owned by Beverly Frick of Conroe, TX. The second photo is my stallion, Rojo Tejas, her son. He's a Capuchino grandson, on the paternal side, but I think he resembles Castellano much more than Capuchino. He has the sweet temperament of his mother and passes it on to his offspring. Beverly says she can't keep a foal out of this mare, they're gone almost before they hit the ground.
I see the resemblance to her and your Castellano daughter in the head.

[Abejita]

hey Carol...Hacienda Radiente ( Hi Karen!!) is the farm that bought Juan Miguel from Fieldstone..and they LOVE that horse to death ..I get emails all the time about all the goofy stuff old studly boy does down there in VA..

Now here are the 2 pics I found in the 'archives'..aka boxes of junk
Esencia que tal -She lived until she was 26 I think -She coliced on me when everyone was away at a show one yr.She was one tough little beeotch of a mare (herd heirarchy-wise) I never saw her ridden but old Chia Pet was a neat little mare
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/Bruja1/esenciaquetal42870.jpg

Entrana que tal -gone long beofre i came here
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/Bruja1/entranaquetal17570.jpg

and if you go to www.fieldstonemeadows.com (http://www.fieldstonemeadows.com) Corveta que tal is on the front page..She dies just shy of 37 yrs old ..Great babysitter..Steve and I both cried all day when she went..(and I have not updated that site in a few yrs ..I need to finish it or delete it. )

[Linda Y]

In case anyone wants to see...this is, if memory serves correctly, Mariachi del Caribe...
And somewhere I have the cutest photo of Banana. Will have to see if I can find it.

[Linda Y]

This is a horse mentioned the other day, El Viento Ido Con...

And this is Incendio Que Bien, by Disipulo que tal...

And finally Roseta del Rosa, by Ejemplo Que Tal...

[stella]

It'll take me awhile to unearth some from the many hundreds of old pics I have, mostly piled in boxes, but I do have pics of a number of Tomaria horses, including Venus, and I think Velada as a youngster too, as I used to write/call and ask people with "relatives" of my horses for them. (also, some old videos and left with a friend in Md, a 16mm film of MM horses including Sin Verquenza being ridden-well, my friend had a 16mm projector, she says I have to come visit to get it!)

Anyway, I have seen Escencia que tal under saddle, she was a GNC in Performance....very quick, very high action, powerful movement - tight corto and a VERY fast largo with beautiful extension....poetry in motion! She wasnt very big, but when she entered the ring, her presence told you she was nothing less than a lead mare - including that she'd be that in every class she entered!

[Hacienda Radiante]

Stella, I would be MOST grateful if you ever unearth that Velada/Venus photos and post them. I'm a relative newcomer to the Pasos (10 years or so) and I'm finding it so difficult to locate any information about the pre-Internet-era Pasos. I'd like to be an informed breeder, and there is so much to learn!

Carol, I see the resemblance too! And I know Beverly F. -- we just acquired La Replica de Casta from her. Another Castellano daughter, this one out of Tomaria lines. Still has the Venus/Eblis in there, just a little farther back. I told Beverly we need to propose a 'geriatrics' class for the 20+ year old 'classics'. Even if it was just for fun, imagine seeing all the old horses that you never physically see in person any more because they aren't ring-competitive -- Nevado, Capuchino, Gracioso, etc. Naturally there would need to be a mares class, too... :) You could learn a ton just by watching the oldsters and SEEING how the various lines have shaped the breed.

(P.S. Hi, Little Bee! if you thought Juan was a closet JollyBall freak, you should see him in a pasture with a 42" horse soccer ball. Incriminating video footage to follow...)

[Hacienda Radiante]

Regarding someone's previous comment about preserving the old information, would our esteemed Moderator consider creating a 'Historical' forum on this site for that purpose? If nothing else, cross-posting gems like the pictures from this forum so they are easy to find would make it simpler to research. just a thought...

[Kerry W]

PFHA has a Historical Committee, the chair is Phyllis Gaudreau. If you'd like to ask questions, share your ideas, and/or volunteer a little time, I'm sure she'd be glad for the help! Her contact info is at this link (Historical Committee):

http://pfha.org/includes/html/pfha.contact.committee.chairs.asp (http://pfha.org/includes/html/pfha.contact.committee.chairs.asp)

There are other committees that you might be interested in helping with, if not the Historical Committee. If you see something you're interested in, contact the Chair and let them know you'd like to help.:D

[jan k]

Stella, do you have a picture of Mario's Delight de Tomaria? It's the dam of my mare, La Nanne de Tomaria. Of course, Venus would be great.

Thanks!

[Bonnie M]

I know the PFHA has old items such as mags....a friend of mine had a lot of items like the PFOBA magazines and gave them to PFHA years ago.

It would be so neat to be able to pull up a site from PFHA to see all of these oldies. I know there are several in my guys' pedigrees that I would love to know what they looked like.

[stella]

Well Jan, I'd like to see a pic of that one too, having looked up the pedigree...but she could be one of the babies in this pic with Venus with a bunch of 'em(guess she was the "babysitter!")or maybe not even born yet....but I do have Sombra and Hermana(both de Tomaria)and also Faldero que tal...some with the real Mario(Aristizabal, who was Colombian and was going to college here and worked Uelsman's horses whenever up here, and I think maybe who brought Juan Juan to them?)

Now, the chair of the historical committee, Phyllis Guadrau, is also an old timer, not only owning a few que tal horses, but also old PR lines (used to have a home in PR too, lives in Fla), and she could really tell some stories, guess I'll need to 'pick on her" to start writing it down(but I bet she's doing that as we speak!)being she owned pasos pre-PFHA.

[paintedhorizon]

Stella, do I have any of the pictures from the ones you had me scan with the Favorito bunch?

[jan k]

Thanks, Stella. I met Mario last year while at Tomaria and I was showing him pictures of La Nanne. He said that her dam (Mario's Delight) was by his favorite horses at the farm, Faldero and Sombra. His family did give Juan Juan to the Uelsman's.

Beth and I were going through a bunch of the old photos, but didn't run across one of Mario's Delight. She thought they must have been in another bunch.

Thanks for checking for me. If Beth finds a picture, I'll send a copy to you.

Otherwise, I look forward to seeing the ones you do have.

Jan

[Hacienda Radiante]

Stella, you're killing me! Your post references a picture of Venus with a bunch of babies. I'm not seeing a photo (and clearly I'm dying to take a peek at Venus) - can you repost?

All this makes me feel like I should never go to a show or farm visit without a camera in hand. Who knows, maybe my lousy, cell-phone, candid shot of a yearling might be the only photo reference of the next great stallion or mare!