Resorte III

[Cindy]

Camped out? Does DJ know what he is talking about or not? Judge for yourselves.....


http://www.pasopedigree.com/video/Resorte-III.wmv

[motorgypsy]

I don't see him camped out. When you stop frame when he's in action he's a little bit strung out at times but when he's stopped at the end of the video with a rider on board and moving around he looks correct - not camped out or sickle hocked.

How did he hold up with age? How old was he when he died and where did he die?

[Linda Y]

I am certainly no expert, but I definitely don't see camped out or sickle hock either.
I bet what they mean by that is he isn't all collected up and squatty in the rear like so many of the fino horses are these days. He has good forward motion. He is moving square.
And he was a gorgeous horse.

[Cindy]

Yes, Linda. I agree. Especially for his time he was WAY ahead of the rest. But Dave Jones is a horseman. When he says camped out, he means camped out. A conformation fault. And in the article presented he went on to say that this fault caused the horse to move in a certain way so he was not talking about the horse's movement. His observation and reporting of this particular horse was apparently incorrect from what we can see here. So if we take it for fact without seeing for ourselves, we have done a great disservice to the legacy of this particular horse. The point is, Dave Jones is just a man. A man who likes to tell stories. And he is indeed a great story teller. I love to read his stories about his trips to Colombia to see horses. They are very entertaining. But they are stories. Stories created by a great story teller and a horseman of the past. They are far from biblical interpretations of the history of the breed and I have no doubt that he would tell you that.

[Soltera]

As though a newbie opinion counts, but I agree with Linda Y that he is not "squatty" at all. AND, he's covering much more ground, and more quickly, than I've seen so far in fino, so wouldn't that allow for a "longer linger" of the rear hooves on the ground?

The section just before we see him dancing around while being petted has a sequence of him moving right to left, and it appears to be uphill, and I think he looked a bit surprised-strung-out for a few strides, but not conformationally camped out.

I was a bit surprised how low his pasterns dipped, though, so MGs request for further detail ("How did he hold up with age? How old was he when he died and where did he die?") would be helpful.

Thanks for posting such an interesting video clip!!!

[motorgypsy]

I don't see today's fino horses as squatting in the rear at all. They move pretty level front to back. Of course TW's do squat noticeably.

But what worries me about many of today's fino horses is that they never seem to reach a position directly under themselves. Admittedly I haven't done a frame by frame on them but the entire action in the rear of far too many of today's fino horses is done in a sickle hock position. I'm not saying they are sickle hocked but it just seems that moving the feet that fast and never reaching the "rest position" where the leg is directly lined up with the butt is the "new way of going". They stop the backward motion of the rear leg before it reaches the lined up position. Now Resorte III goes just a little beyond the vertical but this mode of going is probably a lot easier on the legs than never reaching the vertical. If I remember correctly Maraquita does reach the vertical position. It's only been recently that I've noticed this trend.

The older fino horses do seem to reach the vertical and when they have demos using them the difference is quite noticeable. I'll see if I can find a video of one of the older ones or maybe someone else has a video??? It could just be an optical illusion but I don't think so.

[Cindy]

Remember, this was pre-Capuchino. Short stride was not all the rage until the Americans went gaga over Capuchino. The horses were shown and ridden in a less collected manner in Colombia at that time. The short strided, quick horses were the Puerto Rican horses as this is what they liked on the island. Of course here in the states we combined the likes of both places and developed our own showing style with the different divisions. We also combined the different types. We took the short, quick Puerto Rican horses and combined them with the beauty and power of the Colombian horses.

[Cindy]

For another example, check out this video of two of the best Paso Finos of all time. Resorte IV and Bochica in competition. This was in 1984 which was the year that Capuchino started showing here. Notice that Bochica is the more "fino" of the two but Resorte wins the competition. In fact, even in that time, Resorte would not have been shown in Fino classes in this country. He would have been better suited for the Performance classes.

http://www.pasopedigree.com/video/BochicaResorteIV.wmv

[motorgypsy]

Both of them reach the vertical position with the back legs while they are in gait. It is interesting how we have gone to the extreme of the fast action in our fino horses. Do you happen to have any videos of today's fino champions??

Our stallion moves more like Bochica than REsorte IV or III and he is Bochica and REsorte IV. Our old mare from Resorte III has the performance gait with higher action. It's so neat to see the older horses.

Now how about Dulce Sueno or even Kofresi??? I have a video of Frio Viento and the comparison between the PPR's and the Colombian horses' way of going is also very interesting.

[Finogirl]

One thing I'd like to add as a Newbie is that each breed of horse has it's types of confirmational differences, for instance, the Clydesdales have to be slightly cowhocked to pull drays, Arabians have short and high croups. Paso Finos always look a little camped under to me as someone new to the breed, but this is the way they are put together and also the mechanics of why they move the way they do. If they were post legged for instance, something you see a lot in QHs (IMHO), they would never be able to give the smooth gait that they do and they would not be able to step under themselves so well. For instance 95% of miniatuve horses are also cowhocked like the Clydes, to some degree because they orignated from cart pulling pit ponies. As long as they are not deemed to be too long in the pastern, or weak hocked in any way, then I just see the uniquiness of the Paso Fino.

[motorgypsy]

Amanda sickle hocks and cow hocks are functional flaws. There are many many fantastic paso finos that are not sickle hocked or cow hocked. This is an undesirable flaw, not a breed characteristic and is not necessary to produce good gait. I personally don't want this in my horses. It is instrumental in early breakdown.

And I won't buy a mini that is cow hocked either.

With all the great choices for breeding out there - there is NO EXCUSE for breeding to perpetuate a conformation flaw. It's bad for the horse and bad for the breed.

[Carol Nelson]

Here's the Frio Viento video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zfX5jEUQl4&feature=related

Beautiful animal!!

[CarolU]

Carol, that is an awesome video. I've always liked him, but didn't know a video of him moving was out there. He's really beautiful.

[karenf]

No doubt there are more sickle hocks. This puts a lot more stress on the leg when turning, and makes farrier work essential.

It is a more modern problem and the horse in gait is fast, looks collected and is short strided. It is only when you compare this to a stronger hocked horse that it becomes apparent there is much less strength in a sickle hock.

[pnalley]

I remember watching Frio Viento in the 70's. He was a phenomona n his day. I remember he would fino his heart out, but if he got distracted he would blow and never get back to business, but he was very young.

I guess I'm stuck in a 70's time warp. I still prefer the lower softer action with less quickness, over what appears to win in the show pen today.

Frio could live in my barn anytime

[CarolU]

He does seem very soft and very natural. No forced collection/speed at all there. What a beautiful picture!!! And with that color and hair, what a dream horse. You can certainly see what the U.S. servicemen who went to PR fell in love with that started the importation of the breed. What's not to love?

[SandyMM]

I watched many work offs between Frio Viento and Jorge LaCE. It was always a treat to see the precision and power as they worked their magic. And many of these were no five minute wonders either. These were not the current jack hammer style, often impossible to tell if gait was accurate finos - these horses were elegant, accurate, refined, yet powerful. These competitions were usually outside in the hot South Florida sun in sand-based rings and could last upwards of an hour at local shows - depending on the judge...

[Linda Y]

I guess I'm stuck in a 70's time warp. I still prefer the lower softer action with less quickness, over what appears to win in the show pen today.

Frio could live in my barn anytime


I guess I am too. I very much prefer the soft, low action to the high stepping pounding.
I don't know how true it is, but back in the '60's when I first got a Paso, I was told that in PR they would have 'races' to see who could go around the ring slowest!

[SandyMM]

I guess I'm stuck in a 70's time warp. I still prefer the lower softer action with less quickness, over what appears to win in the show pen today.
I am 100% in agreement with you on that. Tight and quick is too often a cover up for inaccuracies and just doesn't show the precision, elegance, and control I like best.

[Carol Nelson]

Deb Sandusky's Frost (Cale's Helado Oro) is a Frio son. I have a foal by him due April 8 out of my PPR Palomino mare, Conejo Rosado. You can imagine how excited I am.
I believe that Frost is one of the last remaining breeding sons of Frio Viento, if not THE last.
Not to take away from the Resorte thread...most of my horses in my barn are Colombian lines and I love them! But there is a place to preserve them all...

[motorgypsy]

I always heard that Fabio Ochoa thought Resorte III was the best of the two.(Resorte IV)

Not all the Colombian paso finos are foot slammers. Our stallion is pure Colombian and while he has the very crisp gait he doesn't slam the feet to the ground like Chinook does and she's not pure Colombian.

I would think that the feather touch paso fino would hold up longer.

Chinook is a half and half and got the foot slammer probably from her Colombian Plebeyo ancestry. I have to be very careful when riding her on hard clay. She will actually get windpuffs from it.

Chinook's mom is Frio daughter and also a palomino (small in size). I'd love to talk to her current owner. Fiddleleaf farms owned the mom for a while and bred her a couple of times to their Plebeyo son, Tomba Alegre (a big boy by the way). Chinook AKA Fiddleleaf's Vanilla is one of those offspring.

After we got her I found Frost, her uncle, by searching Pasoregistry and long ago got a video of him. He is a very big boy. Frio was not that large so I'd love to see a picture of Frost's mom???

There is the perception even among some native Puerto Ricans that all PPR's are small. This is not true at all. Our PPR mare is HUGE and her half and half daughters are also HUGE and they gait gait gait no matter. The smallest paso finos I've ever seen are PPR but so are the largest so again like the Colombian paso fino,there is a great variety in size and conformation even though the population is fairly small.

But we do have to remember what Candice said about her personal experience with the early importers fabricating pedigrees for the early imports when the ancestry of the import wasn't known. And I suspect that it wasn't just the importers of the PPR's that did this. At least now we have DNA:D

[GeorgeGuns]

I noticed something that I hadn't noticed before and reflected on the horses (not just pasos) that truly are sickle hocked and those that aren't or may be yes/no. Looking at R3 I see that he has LONG GASKINS and shorter cannons, and even with correct angulation of the rear leg, he would need a bit shorter (aka normal) gaskin and correspondingly lengthened rear cannon to lose any illusory sickle hockedness. I think its this gaskin of his that as a fairly dominant trait that leads some to see this Resorte infused breed to think/see sicklehoscks that may or may not really qualify as such. I think about Mouse, a truly sickle hocked horse, and realize that she had very normal and non-breedspecific lengths of leg areas and a poor hip/croup, closed hock angle - HOWEVER this is the most sound horse I have ever owned to date based on age and freedom from injury (the pasos just aren't old enough to qualify yet but they will, LOL!!!) She also wasn't so sickled that one looked at her and went EW. Methinks that its terribly important for an owner to be honest about the horse they have and be considerate to training and use so that even minor flaws (I've only see one PERFECT horse and that was Holstiener mare, LOVELY creature) don't cause big problems...

just my $0.02

One of my videos somewhere has a short clip of Resprte III that I just love because even frame by frame his legs are a blur. That speed totally endeared him to me.

[Soltera]

1) Do long gaskins and short cannons combine to create a sickle hock, or to create the illusion of one? Does the Resorte line, in your opinion, tend to produce sickle hocks? (Not trying to be confrontational - just looking for information.)

2) Please elaborate on "training and use" that protects sickle hocked horses?

3) Do you have a picture, or name, of that Holstiener mare?

Thank you!

[motorgypsy]

I would think that just like our hyperflexy mare that we have to avoid tight turns with and increase her work level very slowly, that you would need to avoid hard use and in particular hard surfaces for any time at all. You just can't work a sickle hocked horse like one who is correct. I certainly wouldn't ride one in endurance for example.

[reuben T]

i know cowhocked is a fault in most horses but I used to get the draft horse journal and i remember an article on pulling horses where it was said a certain amount was a desirable trait for good pulling horses, they go strait under strain. (major strain, a good many tons on those sleds.)

[motorgypsy]

That brings up a good point. Is it a flaw when the horse stands in a conformationally incorrect position when relaxed but is correct when in action? We have one mare who will stand "slew footed" or toes out. But when she moves she's very straight and she wears her hooves straight.

What do you guys think about this??

[GeorgeGuns]

[QUOTE=Soltera;178588]1) Do long gaskins and short cannons combine to create a sickle hock, or to create the illusion of one? Does the Resorte line, in your opinion, tend to produce sickle hocks? (Not trying to be confrontational - just looking for information.)

2) Please elaborate on "training and use" that protects sickle hocked horses?

3) Do you have a picture, or name, of that Holstiener mare?

QUOTE]

I would hazard that other factors influence whether the "sickle" is illusion or fact, such as actual angulation of the hocks, hips stifle, slope of the croup etc

IMO if one is honest about one's horse's faults, one can be prudent in work and training methods so soundness is maintained. Having a darned good vet and farrier helps too.

I can probably get a pic of that mare, her owner is one of my clients and he just loooooves to brag on her, LOL

[stella]

I admit- I wanted to review that video of Resorte III that I havent seen in ages, to double check and refresh my memory, but it shut my Explorer down...BUT...
I dont think its so much that Dave Jones was totally wrong, because in "the old days,"(like, 60s)alot of people politely called sicklehockedness "camped out." It seemed more prevalent in Western books and mags.
This was because, back then it was more stressed as to WHERE the horse was able to have a vertical line of the cannon....if it was indeed behind the point of buttock, in a more camped position...then of course, lined with the p of b, the cannon would be sickle.
Like all things, terminology changed as attention to details evolved...nowdays, a horse can be camped out, camped under, or neither, and still also be sicklehocked!

Let us not forget that a horse can not only pass characteristics in its phenotype, but also from its genotype, even if it doesnt "seem" to inherit the trait(its either a recessive, or the other parent's is more dominant). Yes, I do think that, not only sicklehockedness, but tied in at the knees and hocks seems to be prevalent among lot of Resorte III blooded horses, although thru some Resorte III I see more camped under.....however, that hasnt stopped me from using the bloodline.

There's none that are perfect, so in the end, one must weigh the positives that consistently pass over negatives, and then try to cross with other lines that will overcome the weak characteristics you dont want, even trying to double up on strong lines to help "stamp out" the weak trait...thats the point of breeding, not to make more, but to improve the breed, identify and get rid of weaknesses that are also "typey". A breeder does no service to his/her breed, if they wont identify weaknesses that plague its well-being, and make an effort to rid the breed of them.

One thing the Resorte IIIs had- and initially, it was mostly thru son Belmonte, was a very deep heartgirth and diaphragm area, super well-sprung ribcage,bigger lung capacity that most other Col lines,especially back in the old days. I recall the workoff between Belmonte and Jorge La Ce, an EXCELLENT(and absolutely beautiful)PR horse in Classic Fino Stallions, it went on forever, test after test after test(and 2 HUGE boxes of popcorn for me)....and finally when Jorge got tired- both were dripping....Belmonte got his "second wind," as Resortes tend to do, and then got that much better than before! And that was why I chose it back then (and still use it....)

Yup, the Resortes I've worked with since about '77 mostly seem to "futz around," require alot of warmup time to focus, warm up, etc etc. and then...when other horses would be spent...finally "get it together" and really work, and that not only good for those "final workoffs" in shows, but a horse with that kind of set of lungs is also good for those long long and/or arduous trailrides, competitive or not.

Yes, i get upset when I see an otherwise beautiful ad in the PFHW for an R stallion with gigantic caps on his severe sickle and tied in hocks at age 6,and wonder, "what is the owner thinking? that the public doesnt care, or is too ignorant to notice?"
Because in breeding, there is a process called "selection," and one way is, to try to use examples of a line that show(and/or, have been already proven to produce)the LEAST degree of what is that line's negative characteristics(and they all have something, big or small)...prioritize that over the number of championships that horse has won, etc....remember, horses are NOT born with that trainer attached.

I think what often happens in developing these ideas that a conformational weakness actually has a positive "raison d'etre" is, that it isnt identified properly.
For instance, in the case of cowhockedness.....sorry ,a truly cowhocked draft horse is just not going to be as strong a puller as one that isnt....but "toed out" doesnt necessarily come just from cowhockedness...and I think one sees a good bit of toed out, even close behind stances in Drafts.
A horse somewhat "pointed out" in their stifles will toe out, even may stand "close behind"(that is also not necessarily cowhockedness) to varying degrees, and that horse will have "more clearance" to drive more strongly from the rear. If I recall, Deb Bennett once wrote an article about this way back when, where she felt that horses somewhat(preceding operative word hee) turned out in the stifle, actually preformed better, in speed and strength performances.

Same way alot of people have a misconception of what collected really means...not a horse just folded in like an accordian, but the horse's ability to displace forehand weight to the rear to more so become more "balanced," by rounding the spine(you cant have a true extension in an intermediate gait without collection, either). Yes, a sicklehocked horse may appear more "under itself," and seem easier to collect, and perhaps its not of as great consequence in ACHIEVING a very good fino, which doesnt require anywhere near the degree of impulsion of corto and largo(too much impulsion in the rear would make them hitch,etc, because too much forehand weight would have been displaced to the rear), but they're still much more likely to get arthritis, hock problems sooner than a well-hocked horse, unless great care and more time is taken to develop them and in keeping them fit. A (training/working)sicklehocked horse is best kept shod to try to help him keep his bodyweight more centered over his hoof, although it can often not be as perfect as a correctly hocked horse. Unshod, the weight is more to the back, and consequently pressure in the above joints too, is uneven, and the horse will sheer its heels and lower its angles, causing more uneven strain to all the joints above as well. (if its a retired horse, an unshod horse can just trimmed more often than usual to avoid problems)

One wonderful characteristic about our breed that also has its negative side is the true brio, the devotion of the PF horse to want to work 101% for its owner, no matter what. Well, as I'm sure we all know, even with vet problems, that they will work their hearts out for us, no matter what- even when they're hurting, they wont let us know until its REALLY bad, and they just cant go on....so its OUR job to look out for them!

What we can do is, recognize whatever faults they may have, and design our training plans and time spent riding them accordingly, to help them.....and when breeding, try to create ones as healthy and strong as possible - we cant control what happens to them thru their life once they go to other hands, but we can give them the attributes necessary to increase the potential of better performance, but also a longer and more happy, healthy, painfree life.

[Red Ryder]

Stella said

"One wonderful characteristic about our breed that also has its negative side is the true brio, the devotion of the PF horse to want to work 101% for its owner, no matter what. Well, as I'm sure we all know, even with vet problems, that they will work their hearts out for us, no matter what- even when they're hurting, they wont let us know until its REALLY bad, and they just cant go on....so its OUR job to look out for them! "

******Oh, how true!!! *********

Pooh started trying to tell me in the last parade that he was hurting too much to continue the
"showing off" I was doing with Fino in place, side passing facing the crowd on the left, then flipping and side passing facing the crowd on the right, then flipping and going backwards {usually with fino steps}.

He started dropping his head and pushing his nose our really quick and hard. So hard he was
almost taking the reins out of my hands. He'd never done that before. I couldn't understand what was going on. I scolded him and he kept doing his best.

We finished the parade and I took him home and he was lame in his RR for 4/5 days.

Really hurt me that I didn't read what he was telling me and I wound up hurting him.

Never again !!!!!

There not enough ooohh's and aaawww's in the world for me to see him hurting like that.

He never gave up, just told me more often that he was hurting.

Dumb me [kicking myself everytime I think about it]

[Cindy]

I dont think its so much that Dave Jones was totally wrong, because in "the old days,"(like, 60s)alot of people politely called sicklehockedness "camped out." It seemed more prevalent in Western books and mags.


Stella, too bad you could not watch the video. Hopefully you will be able to at some point. It really is a good one. Had you been able to watch the video you would have seen that it shows Resorte III to be neither camped out NOR sickle hocked. In fact, he is very correct all around. The only thing that I would fault him for from that video and still photos is that he was a bit thick in the neck for my taste. So perhap Mr. Jones his own reasons for not liking the horse. We must remember that he was doing a job when he saw these horses and put his comments in perspective with the situation and the time that they were made.

[motorgypsy]

Interesting about the heart girth of Resorte III. Our 25 year old resorte III great grandaughter (perfume, perfume II) is very slender barreled even after five foals but has a wide deep chest and can go all day just out of the pasture. She's a tough as nails mentally and physically. Another one you have to work a bit before she settles and one you have to prove "worthy" of her before she settles down. I totally love this mare.

I would love to see photos of Perfume or Perfume II if anyone has them. I'm assuming our mare got her dun markings from her mother, Lindalaja.

[CarolU]

That's a great story to share Hollis. It's why I think 'listening' is so much more important then "whispering." They do 'talk.'

I'm sorry Pooh was sore. I know how guilty you can feel about that stuff.

[motorgypsy]

Hollis you are so right about them going above and beyond.


I rode Chinook in a LD endurance ride at the Kentucky horse park. We were still the park when she fell in a huge hole went up to her shoulders and then up to her stifles into the hard ground. The hole was obscured by long grass that lay down when they mowed the area. I immediately got off her and walked her around and she seemed fine so we went on. We got lost and did one loop twice. We overtimed but she was fine when we got in. In two hours I took her back to the vet because I was worried about her. She was dead lame. We think she hit one stifle. I gave her a two month layoff. You really have to pay attention because they really aren't "whiners" and will keep going with the most horrible problems.

[StephB]

I watched the video and he is strung out and traveling like a trotting horse in the back. His back is hollow and he's not working off his butt.

[paintedhorizon]

Okay, I watched the video. To me he does look strung out. His hind feet are landing behind his or right at his stifle area. And his hocks are behind his buttock. I'd like to see more collection. Maybe I'm just used to Stella's horses, but shouldn't the feet land further forward?

[Cindy]

Yes, he is, as Steph said, traveling hollow backed and strung out behind. So if he were indeed camped out this would exacerbate that fault. But he is not camped out and his only fault is improper balance and collection.

[paintedhorizon]

Yay! I'm learning! hahaha

Yes, he is, as Steph said, traveling hollow backed and strung out behind. So if he were indeed camped out this would exacerbate that fault. But he is not camped out and his only fault is improper balance and collection.

[stella]

Well, it took me 2 days in the little time I had(being I'm a VERY slow typist, too), to write the following......
in the meantime, a few others have already made my main point (much more clearly and directly than me), and I am very happy and relieved that Cindy agrees!

Anyway, for what its worth:

Well, instead of catching up on my email, I played hooky the other night and found a way to download the video of Resorte III and review it a zillion times….I couldn’t find a way to do slow motion, but only stop action to study, especially the part at the end standing where he momentarily puts one leg with the cannon fairly straight, to raise the other way high up(as if stretching), and still be able to balance his bodyweight(and that of the rider’s) with only one leg on the ground behind. It wouldn’t “go on”, but repeated from the beginning, so I did review it from the beginning many dozens of times. (especially trying to see the flexion of the hoof/pastern as well of the supporting leg).

Its only normal for a horse(or other 4 being,esp 4 legged)to have to get its leg into as optimal position as possible to retain balance when going to only one leg on the ground in back, not only compensating for the other leg as support for bodyweight(and rider), but also “brace,”in order to be able to raise the other leg so exceptionally high simultaneously. That ideal position is as perpendicular to the ground as possible. I don’t find this very brief moment proof he actually has straight rear cannons at all.(especially after watching the whole tape, and the introductory pic)

Anyway, I still see a horse that is sicklehocked(not badly, but nonetheless, not straight) but more so, camped UNDER. That is, given a vertical line from the point of the buttock perpendicular to the ground, the hocks in a normal stance do not fall directly under this point, as they ideally should. (stop at the position where his cannon looks straight while standing, and you can see EVEN THEN, hyperflexed, the hock is still not quite as far out as the point of buttock…despite the fact there is some foreshortening of perspective, given the horse is not perfectly perpendicular to the video camera)

Why I’m really glad I got to review this video again (and much more intently) is, that now I can see what Dave Jones was actually talking about.
Its not that Resorte III is conformationally camped out in his rear legs, but he is working with the rear legs as what may be described as such(as horses built that way often do); what is more correctly called “dropped out” or “strung out” in the rear….his legs do not track forward under his body as they should if he were correctly collected, but instead of his sacrum being “hinged under” as his back rounds, his back end is tipped out and he is working “behind himself.” (Considering that he has, and passes, one of the deepest hips,especially for a stallion, as well as extraordinarily good underpinning and full gaskins, he has “the goods,” but not using it correctly).

That’s because he’s working in a frame known as “false collection.”
The head is pulled in, but that’s not what collection is.
Notice that the neck is also pulled in by inverted manner(ewe-necked, and yes, he lacks poll) so that the back hollows out greatly, precluding the ability to “hinge” correct under from the sacrum. (Luckily, particularly as a stallion, he has a strong topline too, which many ewenecked horses do not, and it’s the use of the topline more strongly thats needed to collect properly—help create “the bascule.”)
It doesn’t matter if you’re into dressage, reining, cutting, etc., what breed of horse or discipline it is, the basic principles of collection…having horses be able to balance themselves optimally, for their own well-being-the science, the physics of equine balance and movement, relative to gravity– are the same…
…and so, Dave Jones, with the keen trained eye of an long experienced horseman, can readily see the horse wasn’t working correctly in the rear….its my opinion he wasn’t “telling stories” at all.
I kinda have to wonder if he didn’t choose to not quite accurately describe the fault deliberately so that it was taken to be 100% a problem with the horse, and thus be polite and not at all allude to even the slightest possibility of any human shortcoming in any way –after all, if he didn’t want Resorte III blood, why did they choose to import Salpicada bred to him, producing Belmonte? Not only that, but MM used Belmonte to sire about a dozen horses…and B had a more correct topline/neck, thanks to mama.

Sure, in the details of the process of collection, there are tweaks that need to be tailored to not only the breed, gait, and way of going, but also for the individual’s conformation strengths and weaknesses. But, as long as horses share the same basic structure, and we cant change the power and principles of gravity upon which the principles of collection are based (science!), the basic principles are universally the same.

I’d be the first to say, that I don’t agree with the PF dressage book out there, that simply imposes “straight dressage” onto the breed, irrespective of the differences of our breed’s conformation,gait and breed identity- I DO NOT want our horses looking(or moving) like “generic dressage horses,” they still should retain their identity in frame- but a “correct” frame” as Paso Finos.

But on the other hand, I fight an urge to tear my hair out(and then strangle the people responsible with it) whenever I see “rhinestones passed off as diamonds” when it comes to false collection, very faulty conformation and very inconsistent and/or limited gait.

I’m happy to say it seems like the “pendulum is swinging”away from this in about the past 2 years or so, as people become more knowledgeable….and not that we are the only breed that has gone thru these trials and tribulations where competitiveness in and of itself got prioritized over the well-being of the breed’s future.

I'll make a second post as to a few comments directly about Resorte III...

[stella]

I dont mean to come across as being extremely negative about Resorte III at all, even though it may seem so by pointing out all his faults...its just "the breeder in me"....its not done judgmentally at all...because I use Resorte III blood quite a bit in my breeding program! And even linebred it!(with great thought and careful selection, as with all lines I do that with).
There is no such thing as a perfect horse, nor a perfect bloodline. Breeding isnt just about making more, but making better horses;you protect the breed by "point blank" lovingly acknowledging the faults, so you can find the correct mates to breed those traits out.
Not to do so only serves to perpetuate, even magnify and/or make pervasive those problems; take the risk that the line eventually will get better known for its negatives than its positives, and if you really love that line, you dont want that....let it be known for its outstanding characteristics, first and foremost, well into the future...so the most loving thing you can do is acknowledge the faults...thats what real love is all about anyway, acceptance of "the whole package, "warts and all,"" isnt it?

The faulty confo traits of Resorte III (let me say I've been dealing with and studying others'examples of this line for 30 years)- lack of poll, camped under(not as serious as camped out), some sicklehockedness, tied at the knees, narrow back hooves prone to much toe...are fairly common weaknesses in our breed(except maybe the back feet, thats more singular to the line), which breeders can breed out, if they recognize those traits and choose mates with lines more dominant for the correct feature.

However, his positive traits are quite singular, and difficult to get from any other lines in the breed, and thereby improve other lines. As mentioned, the deepest heartgirth, diaphragm and correct shape/breadth of the ribcage of all Col lines(and most PR); the deepest hip of the PF lines, and equal to others in the underpinning of the hindquarters. Powerful solidly firm, well-developed musculature; certainly also the very long, laid back shoulder, with a clean insertion of the neck- which i feel he gets from Guala, as her sons had it too, that I saw(such as Faldero, Cortes and Eximio), and all seem to pass it.
Luckily, these positive, outstanding traits are very dominant genetically, which is what makes him so very important to our breed....yesterday, today and tomorrow. They are traits that are important not only for the showring, but to many other equestrian activities, such as distance riding, any activities where endurance, power and performance over long periods of time are important, foaling(deep hip), and wherever tractibility is important.(like, conquering the americas!)

[paintedhorizon]

Stella, you are such a wealth of knowledge!

[Soltera]

Stella, and others:

1) What is "lack of poll"?

2) Seems to me the frame for a GP level, fully finished dressage horse is just that of a classic Paso Fino frame. What's the difference?

Inquiring minds want to know....:D