Are You Having Breeding Problems? Or Have You?

[Tina Calhoun]

"My mare was clean when I took her to FL. A culture was done. (told clean) They bred her again now she comes back positive for 2+ Beta strep. She was treated, re-bred, no foal. The bills keep adding up."

or

"My mare has been in Ocala for over 18 months - no success yet. I'm told the stallion is the problem - poor semen quality and semen is dirty. Thousands of dollars keep adding up and I have nothing to show for it."

or

"My stallion had a great success rate in the past and now he doesn't. What's going on?"

Things to consider:

- The stallion is the problem.
- The mare is the problem.
- The vet is the problem.

If the stallion is getting mares pregnant elsewhere but not your mare - this could point to your vet's management. It could also be a red flag that your mare is dirty. And if your mare has had infections ongoing - NOT A GOOD SIGN! This is not acceptable.

A culture taken "properly" will tell you if she is dirty. To ensure bacteria has enough time to grow, have them do a 48 hour culture. Always obtain the lab report to ensure it was indeed done and confirm with the lab that the culture is on record. Explain to your vet that you want a complete record on file of what was done to your mare. This is just good business and helps you maintain necessary information on the mare or stallion care.

And if all else fails and the bills keep adding up, get a second opinion from a reputable vet.

Protect yourself!

Tina Calhoun
Rassy Ltd.
www.RassyLtd.com

p.s. I am writing a paper regarding reproduction experiences and would appreciate any information on your breeding experience.

[Tina Calhoun]

Since I posted this I have received 6 phone calls from Paso Fino breeders who are at wits end. Their mares have been in Ocala for months on end with no success. Each averaging about $1,000 - $1,200 per month on vet bills and some not authorized. But here's the clincher ... either the mare is or was infected during treatment or they keep hearing "the stallion's semen is no good." And when asked who they were breeding to, it wasn't the same stallion!???

First, I don't like a vet bad mouthing a stallion if it isn't true.
Second, I don't like mares subjected to ramped infections.
Third, I don't like hearing I can't afford to buy a horse or to breed this year because I am in a financial nightmare because of this vet.

I hope everyone starts comparing notes to realize they aren't the exception but the norm when it comes to being raped by this vet.

If the State doesn't stop this, I certainly hope the loss of business with stop it.

What Vet or Farm are you specializing on writing about in Ocala?

[SandyMM]

This would not be a good thing to discuss publicly until it is resolved... however private messages and emails would be appropriate.

[Tina Calhoun]

I am writing about the do's and the don'ts for breeding experiences in general. How to have a good experience by understanding it more. Each experience has a different twist to it. Does that answer your question?

[Abejita]

Tina..if you didnt keep mentioning FL..and specifically Ocala..One might believe you are writing a research article..but it sure come across as trying to gather evidence . You made no effort to hide the fact that you felt you had been mishandled by a previous vet (on another board last year) and I am not saying you have or have not. What Sandy - as a board administrator- is trying to gracefully ask you to do is cease and desist before you get Lori drug into the midst of a legal entanglement. I am not an admin on here just a poster..so I will say it..I am not saying you didnt have problems..not saying you dont have a right to persue it..but you SUCK at trying to hide your motives...

[Terry Wallace]

WHY oh why... must Tina try to hide her "motives"? C'mon people... if I had a mare undergoing this type of BS, I'd step right up to the plate and say so. This is a great place to ask if anybody else is having these same problems and in the same area. Where else can you ask and have as many viewers?

I'm sick to death of this "don't ask , don't tell" attitude. If you want to see good things happen in this breed, instead of sweeping it under the rug, or looking the other way...then you best act upon it.

If I had a vet/stallion station/or owner... keeping a mare of mine for months at prices like that, (especially UNAUTHORIZED) charges, for results like that...you can bet your hiney I'd raise the roof.

I would NOT want anybody else going through what I did....and I'd make darn sure I got the word out. Until the day comes where this type of practice is brought to a halt.... I'd do everything in my power to expose it.

Once I bought a mare at an auction.... a "registered Paso Fino"..... well, thats a whole nuther story.... most of you know it.

We NEED people with BACKBONES, to help get this breed "on track"....
otherwise, you can expect the same old, same old..... JMO

[Abejita]

Well than why does she keep insisting on disguising her real intent behind a 'research article?" She did that from the first post. I agree If there is a problem it needs to come to light. But if the people that run this board are requesting it stays PM ..thats also their right.

[Pasogirlz]

I think asking if ppl are having a problem w/breedings is one thing. Many ppl have problems in this area and need to have a venue to learn and share w/others. However naming names or making acusations or insinuations can should be handled privately.

I do think I will move this post to the Health Forum, so let's keep things on track w/discussing possible problems we are having in the reproduction areas.

[Terry Wallace]

No names or farms have been mentioned.

It is definitely a problem that I'll bet many people don't know about, and its useful information for those headed into the breeding season.

Knowledge is power, and if you know what you should expect, and it isn't happening for you, then these are questions you can ask.... as well as things to be aware of.

I see this thread as helpful. JMO

[Edurne]

This is an excellent thread.... especially for any novice planning breeding, in whatever locale...
Horses don't necessarily get pregnant and have babies just as easily as cats and rabbits. There is a lot of knowledge within this board that can be shared.

[Tina Calhoun]

Please go to our website and see "Do You Have The Shipping Blues" article. Or others on nutrition....or I could send you many others I've written, had published. Terry is right. Knowledge is power.

The fact remains that evidence has already been submitted, affidavits have already been signed by others, witnesses have been identified and the State is doing their own investigation. That's been ongoing for a while now. It is being exposed because it is happening all too often. Until we spoke up, folks just thought it was an isolated incident. But if you don't care what happens to your mare while paying thousands of dollars monthly, go for it. Your mare suffers and so does your pocketbook. And we keep saying "the market is soft" etc., well maybe it's because too many funds are going down the drain due to poor breeding services. Ever think about that?

If I can gather up additional evidence against anyone causing harm to our breed or horses, whatever the harm or injustice is, I will try to correct it. Sorry guys - that's me. Have done it all of my life and will continue to do so. Abusers have been stopped and no longer are in the breed due to the Breeders' Club efforts. Horses have found good homes and are now being fed. This is no different. Trusting a professional to take good care of your prized mare or stallion should not be taken lightly.

So move this thread and sweep it under the rug and allow it to continue. The horse continues to suffer.

[Kerry W]

I do appreciate things like this being topics of discussion. I've often wondered though...how deep is your well of strength, when it comes to veterinarians? You've been quite outspoken about some of the issues you've personally faced, with vet after vet, and to be honest...I think I'd just go to vet school myself and not have to DEAL with yet ANOTHER one! :shock:

[Carol Nelson]

Got to agree with Tina and Terry...can't keep sweeping things under the rug...but when one is going to make accusations, one better have one's ducks in a row nowadays. Documents to prove, phone calls, dates, names, etc., as one could find oneself in a whole heap of trouble.
However, if it is one particular vet, this vet needs to be stopped, or at least governed. The best way to do that is to make what he or she is doing known to the general public. Frankly, I'm all for publishing names and addresses IF one has the proof that this vet is negligent. How else is the general public to know. But one had best be prepared for the reprocussions that such an action is going to bring.

As far as mares and stallions and infections, one or two of our mares have come up showing to have a low grade infection upon culturing, and these always seemed to be brought under control with an in and out flush with an antibiotic, or homeopathically with a grapefruit seed extract flush, and the mare would conceive on the next breeding. These always seemed to be of reasonable cost. Of course, I am very fortunate to have an excellent and upstanding equine repro vet. And these were not infections "given" to the mare by a stallion, they were just typical uterine imbalances in bacteria.

I remember back when we bred our first client's mare, and we always asked for a uterine culture when breeding live cover, the client requested a penal culture on our stallion. I didn't see any problem with that so we had him cultured and he was clean. Since then he has not bred live cover so it has been unnecessary to culture him again.

I guess that's why I prefer AI breeding as if all is kept sterile as it should be, you rarely have infections as a result of the breeding. But in the world of horsedom...you can have anything happen anytime.

[cowboy ed]

true, you should be able to trust professionals to get the job done for you.
some farms that manage stallions have a really good batting average when it comes to breeding, others are a bit less successful. the barn managers' knowledge of heat detection and stallion handling is one of the key ingredients in getting mares bred. of course, reproductive health of the mare and stallion is essential, but given that, if mares are bred too early or too late, then it is a waste of time.
i know of some instances where mares were bred live cover before they were really receptive. if the stallion is being heavily campaigned or used, the handler is not often willing to do multiple breedings on the same mare.
now, take a situation like i have at my farm. i own the stallion and the mares. i can observe the mares and know when they are in standing heat. i can let the stallion breed the mare every day that she is in standing heat, whether it is two days or seven days. we have a very good conception rate here on my farm. if i breed someone else's mare to my stallion, i follow the same procedure. i also keep the mare here long enough to get her vet checked in foal.
i would think that the incentive at any stallion farm would be to get the mares bred. the stud fee usually includes a live foal guarantee, so it would be in the stallion owners' interest to get mares bred with the least time and effort. good practices improve conception rates. i could see no advantage for the stallion owner to drive up costs by keeping mares longer than necessary.

[Pasogirlz]

I don't have loads of breeding experience. But the last time I tried to breed my Arab mare it was a nightmare. Very emotional for me and expensive too. That is just one reason I feel we need topics like this to be discussed and are important. I'm sure Pasos are not the only breed having issues and heartbreaks in this area. So you guys know what to do and how to keep this thread from getting out of hand. ;-) I don't feel I'm sweeping this under the rug....otherwise you wouldn't be reading this now. I like to keep the most informative threads in their appropriate forum for others to be able to find info quickly, or refer back to. There is a shadow of the topic in the GCC so it is still visible.

I do not think this is being put under the rug... Not every mare or stallion is going to be correct for you. They're many problems that can contribute to your problems in the breeding shack for example the mare stops her cycle when the winter comes and is hard to get pregnant with artificial stuff, some of these mares having embryos done are sometimes old and their reproductive system shuts down and is hard to get it back to work, while shipping semen a temperture change can effect the sperm from the stallion , the mare is not served within the 24 hour period or simply the stallion you are breeding to does not have the best quality semen.

As far as breeding at my farm we have had no problems I have 3 mares at Dr. Davila's place in Ocala. Out of all of the embryo transfer vets we have met with Davila surely stands out. The cleanest facility and the most friendliest staff out there. Out of 3 embryos done 2 have foaled already and we are waiting for our third one in March. I am hoping to intern with Jose after I finish my studies.

[Wendy]

Tina, I went to web site and found it very informative. Thanks for the great info. I will be AI this year for the first time and any information would be greatly appreciated.

[Tina Calhoun]

I do not think this is being put under the rug... Not every mare or stallion is going to be correct for you. They're many problems that can contribute to your problems in the breeding shack for example the mare stops her cycle when the winter comes and is hard to get pregnant with artificial stuff, some of these mares having embryos done are sometimes old and their reproductive system shuts down and is hard to get it back to work, while shipping semen a temperture change can effect the sperm from the stallion , the mare is not served within the 24 hour period or simply the stallion you are breeding to does not have the best quality semen.

PasoNito,

You make very valid points.

1. We don't breed during the winter months because mares are less likely to get pregnant that time of year. Our new vet just started back to breeding this month. Your vet breeds during winter months and based on what I have been told, has not told clients of this challenge.

2. Old mares or mares that have horrifically foundered do not do well in the embryo process. Yet it continues to be done at your vet's facility. Why? Especially when mares are in pain and cannot produce embryos because of their health status?

3. Timing is very important and needs to be monitored closely. When servicing volume, this can easily become a problem.

4. Semen quality can be poor but in our particular case, the semen was deteriorating and the good vet said it was not a problem. We strongly disagreed and got a second opinion. Sometimes being too busy to address problems perpetuates the problem - resulting in less successful mares bred.

5. Equitainers are sealed and if properly packed should not negatively impact semen temperatures. Now if it is opened on the way by airport security then that is a different story but that has never happened to us. We always hold back a sample of semen to compare what the receiving vet sees is what our sending vet sees. And if the semen quality is bad, our client should not endure the expense - we do.

PasoNito, I am glad you have had successful results - maybe this is making a difference after all.

[GeorgeGuns]

Hmmm. This is interesting.

- Now I don't find any rpoblem with how this is being presented. Tina has in past posts said that she has had probelms with a certain vet but has tactfully not used the name of that vet. So, now she is gathering info, and Ihave no doubt that an article is in the works, and if hte info gathered carries weight eslewhere, well so be it. No names are mentioned so what's the big deal? These are issues anyone breeding a horse, esp with A.I., needs to be concerned about.

- beta 2 strep? IF I remember correctly, this is the form of strep carried by CATS! Normally its a harmless bactieria, but introduced to traumatized or vulnerable tissue it becomes an infection. (I may be wrong, I am drawing on little used nursing memory) And no I am not referring to the [can't spell it] bacteria that makes gyn's tell preggy women to not have contact with cats. I've seen this strep cause problems with cat owners that have open wounds, its nasty.

- If this is a problem involving a large area and more than one vet, then I would HOPE that the state's infectious control officer would be involved and investigating not just procedures, but culturing surfaces and people involved. This could be a hidden culprit that passes too easily despite good protocol.

- I'm sure there are vets that don't know what they are doing, and yes they need to be brought to task about it, but this does sound like a more widespread and multi faceted problem.

[Tina Calhoun]

Coreen, the State is concerned about contagious diseases, infections, gouging, forging documents and abusing horses for a fee.

We met with some of the veterinarians in our community this week and they are very upset about the bad press this Ocala breeding facility is bringing to our community.

Here is one example that I was personally involved with regarding this vet:

A dear friend of mine owned a fabulous fino mare that was a fino filly national champion. She foundered but was back to health. Our friends decided that they wanted embryos - they didn't want her to carry a foal for fear of her health. So they delivered her to the vet's facility here in Ocala.

Early last year, we were visiting this facility conducting our own breeding business. At that time, I saw this poor mare in sever pain fighting to stay alive. She could hardly stand, was a complete skeleton and had sores on her body.

When I saw the name plate on her stall, I was shocked. It was my dear friend's mare! I immediately addressed the vet and asked if he had recommended putting the mare down to get her out of her agony. He said yes but the owner refused to do so. He also told me that he could never get an embryo from her because she was in so much pain and in such poor health.

Not realizing that I knew the owner, I called my friend and said "I saw your mare at the vet's facility, what has he told you about her health?" She said he was still trying to harvest embryos and these things take time. I then told her what I saw and asked her to please travel to Ocala.

My friend trusted this vet and she dearly loved her mare. The mare was put down shortly thereafter. Yet for 8 months or more, this vet collected thousands of dollars while the mare suffered.

The community is starting to hear about these injustices to horses from many dissatisfied and bewildered clients - from various breeds. It is a shame what greed can do to a once carrying person.

[Kerry W]

How long did they leave her there without going to see her?

It is the owner's fault in this case. How are you going to blame the vet if he/she is just doing thier job, they reported that the mare isn't at the best health possible but the owner insisted that it be kept alive. Who do you think is to blame the ignorant owner who is more into the money it is going to produce by selling these offsprings or the vet that recommended the best procedure possible in this case? You be the judge.

That isn't a valuable argument there Tina.

[Tina Calhoun]

OK. Then let's evaluate this.

Veterinarians are supposed to know more than you and I.

We trust their judgement and level of care.

We expect them to tell us the odds of the mare successfully getting bred or an embryo being harvested.

We expect the vet to be honest enough to tell us when this will not take place due to the mare's health.

False hope is what I keep hearing from many past clients of this vet. They ask the vet for guidance and yet the vet tells them false information. He continues to collect the funds and avoid the medical truth. And that is wrong according to the ethics of the Association of American Equine Practicioners. The horse's well being is of the utmost importance regardless of what the owner wants.

A vet that cared about the horse would have suggested for the owner to put the mare down and forget about harvesting embryos because that was unrealistic.

But if you disagree, I know of a vet that will promise what you want to hear....

[Tina Calhoun]

I also find it interesting that you do not identify yourself as I have.

So who is challenging this - are you willing to say?

ok.

My name is Genaro Blanco JR better known as Nito, I am 16 years old and not your average one ethier. Umm what else I am owner to 17 paso finos and counting and been in the breed for more than 10 years and have owned actual horses for 4 years now. I plan to study Animal Sciences at UF or Texas A&U and major in equine reproduction and health.

Do you need to know anything else?

I didnt not mean to say valuable but valid instead. If the owner says it wants to keep on doing embryo's on thier horse it is thier problem not the vets. If the owner of the mares chose to keep her alive and at the facility it insinuates that the vet keeps on trying to do his or her stuff.

PS - and what does a mare with laminitis have to do with a vet doing unsucessful embryo transfers? thats why I said your post was not valid in this topic.

[Tina Calhoun]

Go to UF or Texas A & M vet school and find out. Both schools teach the responsibilities of the veterinarian and how to protect the interests of their animal patients above the wishes of an owner.

Thanks for identifying yourself.

Good luck in school.

Tina