Noticed this on DreamHorse

[PasoVicki]

Since I'm home trying not to hover over Miss Mila, I've been playing around on DreamHorse -- and I noticed this ad.

http://dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1209492


The ad says the price is so low due to the owner's financial problems. Could be a real good deal for someone.

[PattiB]

Just a little inbreed!

[motorgypsy]

If the grand sire is really great that's the best way to get an almost clone of him.

We have a full brother sister bred mare and she is awesome. If you breed this close and don't get anything bad you know you have good lines because if there is something bad in those recessive genes they will show up with this kind of breeding. Yes you have to know what you are doing before you even consider it but I would much prefer to use a stallion that had been closely inbred a few times to be sure there is nothing nasty hiding in there that will come out later.

So don't reject line breeding or inbreeding just because you think it's bad. It's by far the best way to set traits that are very unusual and desirable. And also the best way to find out if there are any bad traits in an individual. It was done with guide dogs because there was one who was just amazing at this task - so much better than anything else - and he was bred and inbred to numerous times to set this trait. And so now we have dogs that are truly amazing guide dogs just because the owners had the good sense to breed to set this amazing trait. Obviously any responsible breeder will eliminate any individual who throws something bad like hip dysplasia, aggressive behavior, fear biter, and other undesirable characteristics. This is the problem with puppy mills. They don't weed out the bad ones and the whole breed suffers later.

Inbreeding is also what creates a prepotent animal - one that produces its best traits in its offspring. You breed the best to the best until the individual had two sets of genes for these same good traits and they are dominant traits. So you breed to eliminate weakness and to set strengths. You out cross when needed and breed closely when you have something really special you wish to preserve.

[nellie99]

Hey everybody, I know this colt, I got him as a yearling, and I have his sire. This colt has a solid build, good gait, and will be very much like his sire. He is homozygous for black, creme and agouti- I had him tested. He has only one testicle down, all his other brothers are fine, I wondered if he would drop late, he was almost 2 before that one showed up. I've heard some rare colts only have one. If it's not hereditary, which I can't say it is or isn't, he'd be a fine one to use for color! His sire is a drop dead gorgeous dunskin. Here is a picture I took of him late day in mid January. The next picture is of the sire when we bought him and this colt.

[PattiB]

Well if he only has one testicle dropped he can't be used for breeding, if you want to register with PFHA. Chapter 8 IVB pg 109.

[motorgypsy]

I'm still looking for some good research on this problem. I know some stallions have been retired from use because they threw a colt with this problem. In that case though the mare could very well be the source, not the stallion. It does seem to be more common in a couple of breeds - not paso finos though. There actually are a few cases of having only one but this is very rare.

[pasorider]

The last Mo,. Foxtrotter that we raised didn't drop either one, a true Cryptiod. When he was 2 1/2 we took him to the Equine Center in Columbia, Mo. to be gelded. They said that they were so far up inside him that they would have never dropped. Turned out to be a difficult surgury, as they had trouble finding them.

[nellie99]

The sire to the perlino colt has had plenty of colts out of several different mares for several years, and full colt siblings to the perlino, and all the colts have had both testicles intact. I've personally handled 4 of these colts not including the perlino and have felt both gonads down on them all. The mare has close lines to the stallion; I personally wouldn't cross them myself, and chalked up the practice of the breeder who did to ignorance maybe? He was an older man with a rare degenerative muscle disease, not that this is an excuse for his breeding ideas. I feel confident the stallion is not the source.

[Terry Wallace]

Yep..see the PFHA rule book page 109.....no offspring will be registered from a cryptorchid stallion. Personally I would not gamble with it... if the other testicle never descended and you already bred mares, those offspring would have their papers pulled....and I would think the stallion owner would be reprimanded by PFHA.

According to AAEP...if a colt does not have both testicles descended by age 12 MONTHS..its not normal and should be regarded as a cryptorchid.

Regardless if they descend at a later date....

Just FYI

[PattiB]

We had a colt that had one dropped but the other was not dropped at 2. The vet said that if they aren't dropped by 1 yr. the testicle was more than likely defective even if it dropped. Also if left in could turn cancerous. We had him gelded and it wasn't very far up but very small.

[SandyMM]

I have heard there are at least two Paso Fino stallions who are breeding with only one testicle... I was not told who they were.... probably for obvious reasons... Wonder what would happen to registered grandoffspring and down the line if a horse's papers were pulled.... As they should be to remove this problem from the breed...

[PasoVicki]

When I first posted the link, the owner was advertising him as a stallion/breeding prospect -- no mention of the testicle problem. The ad's been edited now, to include information about the undescended testicle and to advertise him as a gelding prospect. I'm glad to see the owner being honest about the situation.

[Terry Wallace]

I'm glad to see the owner being honest about the situation.


Yes..me too....that would fall under "ethical disclosure".


SandyM.... How do you feel about competing against other stallions (for breedings I mean) that are not supposed to be used as breeding stallions (because they are cryptorchids) and the rule book clearly states so? I know I don't like it one bit.
Its a dis-service to the breed and unethical IMO....

[SandyMM]

It is extremely unethical and detrimental to the breed. By hiding the fact that a stallion is crypt- or monorchid - which is _definitely_ a genetic flaw - and using that horse to sell breedings and telling people the offspring can be registered, a stallion owner is intentionally selling a flawed product - a legally unregisterable (by PFHA rules) horse. Maybe every stallion should have a vet's confirmation of dropped testicles by 'X' age required to get permanent registration papers.

Of course, there are also the neuticals (sp?) which some people have had 'installed'.... Perhaps every mare owner should require that the stallion owner guarantee that the stallion has two 'original' testicles.

Sheesh - Emi would be shocked to know that that's even a problem... ;) (Certainly isn't a problem he's ever had to deal with! ;) He's 'fully functional!)

[cristy]

[QUOTE=SandyMM;185340]

Of course, there are also the neuticals (sp?) which some people have had 'installed'.... Perhaps every mare owner should require that the stallion owner guarantee that the stallion has two 'original' testicles.

QUOTE]

???What is that?

[SandyMM]

Just couldn't bring myself to post the link to the TV report, but I PM''d it to you... :)

[appyday]

Both of Vences colts he produced for me were dropped at birth..

I should have gotten Vence a set of falsies..

[motorgypsy]

I have heard that this is hereditary but where is the study that proves this? No we don't have any stallions with this problem but when I don't see any studies I wonder about the source of the evidence that it is hereditary???

[Terry Wallace]

I don't know if there is a study. This has been a topic at a few veterinary seminars I've attended. The concensus amoung vets is its highly likely to be heritable, just like parrot or sow mouth. Likely to be a recessive gene, like parrot or sow mouth where it takes both sire and dam to carry such a gene for it to be expressed.

Its definitely thought to be abnormal for a horse not to be fully descended by age 12 months.

The real point here is that it is against PFHA rules.
Just as it is in other horse registries..like AQHA.

WHY would anyone want to perpetuate an abnormality anyway?

[SandyMM]

If a horse is to be used as a breeding animal, _all_ of the requisite 'equipment' should be in prime condition, fully functional, and appear within an acceptable time range. I don't know of any breed association that approves or allows cryptorchids/monorchids/'ridglings'/etc....

Mares who are reproductively 'incorrect' generally don't get pregnant (easily) or don't carry to term. Unfortunately, some 'incorrect' stallions can still produce viable - if flawed - sperm.

[motorgypsy]

True it's against registry rules but then a lot of white used to be thought to be a flaw as was cremelo, perlino, blue eyes, white hooves etc. and none of these are correct.

I have personal experience with the fact that parrot mouth is inherited as I have a friend who bred a mini mare with this flaw a number of times and EVERY foal had parrot mouth. That's very definitive to me even though it's anecdotal. But I've never heard of a stallion with only one testicle throwing that defect and I've see posts from a number of people who say it's not inherited. There are a lot of flaws that occur that are not passed on. This doesn't mean you should breed a stallion with this problem even if it were not passed on but IF the stallion were really really amazing and nothing compared to him it would be a shame not to breed him a couple of times anyway to retain his best traits IF the condition is not transmitted.

When I was talking earlier about the value of inbreeding, this defect is one in which inbreeding should certainly prove once and for all if the defect can be inherited and whether the female line can transmit it. It is a costly problem at the least so if the female line can transmit it, it would certainly be beneficial to know this and avoid breeding to female carriers.

So if any of you info junkies are surfing the web please keep an eye out for any study that definitively proves that having one or two undescended testicles is a trait that can be inherited.

[LynnG]

Some stallions may have one removed by surgery for medical reasons, so just because you only see one, doesn't mean he is a cryptorchid.

If a colt is a cryptorchid, it should be gelded period, and doesn't mean it is coming from the stallion. Yes, as someone said it can transfer genetically thru a mare. Gelding a crytorchid can be major surgery and much more costly. Someone I know had a colt like that...and the vet (vet school) couldn't really find the other one and afterwards the "gelding" still had elevated testosterone levels some time later.

[SandyMM]

Some stallions may have one removed by surgery for medical reasons, so just because you only see one, doesn't mean he is a cryptorchid.
Absolutely true and I know of a case where that happened, but the horse was originally intact and the surgery happened as a much older stallion.