Cribbing

[baileyholc]

How do you break the habit of a horses cribbing? Was just thinking of all the damage one horse can do when they crib.

[Terry Wallace]

You don't. Even surgery has very limited success.
You can put a cribbing collar on them...and it may help...
But (as my vet described this to me) "Even a smoker will find a way to smoke if they want to..and cribbing is an endorphin rush to the brain of a horse...when they crib and windsuck, they release endorphines and that is like a pleasurable drug to them."

When surgery is done... (my vet says) that it works while the surgery site is still sore, but many times after it heals...the horse will go right back to cribbing. He does not reccommend the surgery.

[baileyholc]

Thanks Terry. I didn't think their would be an absolute cure for it. Someone was talking about surgery for this horse that cribs and how it worked on their horse. I didn't believe their was a cure for it. All thou I was told one time that a horse will stop as fast as they picked it up. I wonder if that is true? :confused:

[Blameitonbrio]

Terry, do you know if any researchers have looked into using antidepressants on horses? I ask because Wellbutrin is used for some people to quit smoking and for ADD and depression. Since cribbing is an endorphin thing, I wonder if anyone is working on some kind of horsey prozac to make cribbing less appealing.

Adding: sorry if this is the world's stupidest cribbing question, but I am working on a paper and it's getting old. The ADD is kicking in now, and horses on prozac is seeming more interesting than my paper.

[pnalley]

Terry
Can you give more info on cribbing surgery? I have seen a lot of AQHA's, APHA's & ApHC's that had what appeared to be a scar running almost from ear to ear under the throat & I always wondered what surgery had been done. I considered cribbing OR liposuction of the throat latch area

Like Blameiton brio I'm working and liposuction for a horse seems more interesting then my actual job:biggrin:

[Blair]

It might also depend on one's definition of cribbing. I know true wind-sucking is a tough problem but wood chewing is a bit different. I have heard the term "cribbing" used for both. My mare started to chew wood a few years ago when being boarded at my trainers (field board) and the trainer quickly reassessed her nutrition and added in some conditioning chaf. It worked so obviously it was a good thing!! Last year I noticed my two starting to chew on the trees and added in EquiMin as a feed supplement (they get so little feed they weren't getting enough nutrients) and they quit that habit too. I have read a good bit about how some of these "habits" are symptoms of an underlying deficiency and speaking with your extension agent may help in figuring out what your areas forage may be missing. Just a thought... I am curious about the cribbing surgery too - more interesting than cleaning the house tonight!!!
Blair

[Mo.D]

And while we are on this subject I would like to ask some questions.One of the first two pasos I bought did crib.He also turned out to have an ulser and had to be put on large doses of tagament (sp).
In humans they say ulsers are caused by a fungus I believe it is,not by stress BUT I believe that the stress is what triggers it.Would it be stress or the cribbing that triggers it to cause the ulser in the horse? Your friend,Mo

[pnalley]

I believe studies have been done that say something to the effect of, cribbing (windsucking) can be cause by the horse being out of his natural environment, as in stalled with no turnout. Stress causes many vices.

I have also heard that the studies said horses do not learn the habit of cribbing (windsucking) from other horses. I'm not sure I believe this. I have a friend that has a barn full of cribbers, and I have none. I had one here for a time and Favio started grabbing his feed bucket with his teeth but never actually sucked wind. I banished the cribber to the far pasture, and Favio stopped grabbing his feed bucket with in a few weeks. He is now an adult and does not crib. I do believe in his case it was a case of monkey see, monkey do.

[Brigitte]

After a nasty bout with colic I bought a muzzle for Mar and used for it for some months. He stopped for a while, but has taken it up again lately. I blame it on being bored, because I haven't been riding him as much as I used to. I don't believe that it is a habit that is learned from other horses because there are 3 horses out of 20 who are all pastured togethere and only those 3 do it.

[Boyd R]

I have one here that was terribly lowd. Does not eat the boards or do much damage at all. just wheres off the paint. We started him on mineral supplements and he has next to stopped it all together. A vet here recommends giving a drug to stop it. Not an antideprestent but similiar. possibly for anxieties.

[Pasogirlz]

Hey guys! The latestest issue of Showtime (being released now at Spectrum) has an article about "Cribbing Rings" which are sorta like braces that are afixed to the horses teeth. It makes it uncomfortable for them to crib. It only costs around $400 to have it done here in Miami.
I plan to put some on Tequila. *sigh* So I will let you know how they work. It is said to be more effective than the surgery.

[Mo.D]

Now that is interesting! It'll be neat to follow the thread and see how it works out and what withdraw if any he goes through.Your friend,Mo

[motorgypsy]

Chewing and eating wood is NOT cribbing. Some cribbers can do it just by raising the head. I don't think typically it's a learned from other horses behavior because we boarded with the absolute worst cribber I've ever seen. She was in a pasture with probably 35 horses and no other horses in the group cribbed. She just stood outside and raised her head and swallowed air. She was very thin because she almost never ate. It was terrible.

In SC a lot of pastures have no trees at all and use metal T posts with electric fence. With this setup some cribbers will stop. Don't know if they'll start again if they have the opportunity.

My personal opinion on horses eating trees is that a feral horse eats a huge variety of things like goats and deer. IF you give them lot of yummy hay, good grass, minerals and so on they're less likely to eat trees and wood but will sample it on occasion. I don't think it hurts the horse but it sure hurts the fences and the trees. We've had to wrap hardware cloth around a couple of trees. Ours prefer trulip tree (called tulip poplar) and small pines and don't much like oaks or hickory. The older the tree the less likely they are to eat it.

Regarding ulcers, human ulcers can be caused by the bacteria, H. Pylori - but not all ulcers are caused by this and not all people with this bacteria get ulcers. Today they won't usually treat for H. Pylori even if the blood test shows the person has it unless the person had documentation that they have ulcers or at least erosion or some other irritation.

I don't know if horses have a specific bacteria linked to ulcers. It wouldn't surprise me. One of the best preventatives for horse ulcers is pasture with buddies and/or hay 24/7. This means you may have to feed lower quality as far as calories hay to keep them from getting too fat.

We used to stall for 12 hours a day until our vet and all the literature that we read said pasture 24/7 was by far more healthy even with no shelter but with no shelter in the southeast you have to use a least a sheet during cold rains. Even in Florida they'll start shivering in a cold rain.

We've boarded with probably six cribbers and one weaver. And we know a number of other cribbers owned by friends. It's a really bad habit and really hard to break. The weaver was really weird to watch. He only did it in a stall so his owner never stalled him. Stalls and isolation from other horses really cause a lot of problems in horses.

[ASB.Immortality]

We had two that cribbed and just used necksweats. We just always put them on nice and tight and taadaa! No cribbing. But if you leave it off... they will crib.

[Mrs. E.]

I had not had a horse in 27 years that cribbed until I got my problem boy. He ate the barn and then started on the fence posts.Put electric up so now he wind sucks on the metal water tank. He is at his worse when he gets hisfood,takes a bite then goes over and pulls on the tank. I have to keep it full or he will have it all over the place. And, he was a bad influence on the other horses and I had to move all the others to a different pasture because they started. They are now back to normal . lol

Lori, keep us posted about the ring on the teeth. Never heard of it before. Hope it works. My one son works for a vet in Miami, so will see what he has to say about it.

[Soltera]

The teeth ring sounds interesting!

[pnalley]

I have a mare that exhibits signs or self mutilation (tourettes). She used to be really bad about it if she was just standing in her stall. Now she stays out unless the weather is really bad, but she does have a 12 by 48 paddock she can access even if locked up.

She will reach around to bite at her flank, squeal and kick out at the same time.

Supposedly this is much worse in male horses and they will actually mutilate themselves. Some even have to be euthanized due to the damage they cause to themselves. She has never actually bitten herself.

One of the teaching hospitals did a study on it years ago, and we sent all kinds of info on her and her pedigree, as well as information as to whether her parents had this same weird habit. I couldn't find the paper work on it.

Have any of you seen this behavior before?

[Abejita]

yes one was a stallion who started after he was no longer the 'only stallion' and another horse was found to have ulcers and pretty good case of gastritis..and yes both of them ( males) would actually bite themselves

Oh and Abejita used to ..she did it when coming into heat ..have not seen it for about a year now though so I think it was something she grew out of..

[Soltera]

I knew a QH gelding who would bite at himself in the stall, but only when another horse (any) was getting any sort of attention. If you were in there cleaning stalls or hauling hay, no sweat, but get one out to groom and he'd go into his routine: walk a few small steps very angrily from side to side in the front of the stall (not weaving - a different sort of movement) then stop and "bite at" his point of shoulder, then back up a step to the center of the stall, and put up one short buck.

If you weren't watching him, it would sound like: stamping feet/swishing tail, snap snap, SWISH. The last is the tail going way up with the buck. You never saw the heels over the stall wall, but the tail was a giveaway to the fact that he was bucking. Stand in front of the stall, and all was quiet and he'd get this innocent look on his face. A sweet horse on the ground, but firery under saddle.

Once in a while you'd see little places on his shoulder where he actually made contact. Needless to say, he was almost always on pasture.

Edited to add: he NEVER bucked under saddle.

[pnalley]

Abejita
The horse with the ulcers, did he stop this bahovior once the ulcers were sucessfully treated?

What happened to the other stallion? Did he get worse,stay the same or what.

My mare rarely acts that way anymore. She was two when it started and is 17 now

[Abejita]

I dont know..The stallion was on a STB farm that went out of business and I dont keep up with those circles much anymore..and the other I have not spoken to the owner in awhile

[Pam M]

My mare self-mutilates but she doesn't bite, she slams her head and her face into the wall. She's also a horrendous weaver and I can't keep her stalled for any length of time. She's even jumped the stall door a few times. She won't start hurting herself unless she's been in for a few days. She's had stitches several times from it. She started this when she had to stay stalled at the vets for 2 weeks so maybe that was a trigger of some kind. Needless to say, she rarely stays stalled!

[Brigitte]

Interesting. I know two mares who do this. They'd just start squeeling, kicking turning around biting. They are half sisters, now that you mention the study I wonder if there's a connection.

I have a mare that exhibits signs or self mutilation (tourettes). She used to be really bad about it if she was just standing in her stall. Now she stays out unless the weather is really bad, but she does have a 12 by 48 paddock she can access even if locked up.

She will reach around to bite at her flank, squeal and kick out at the same time.

Supposedly this is much worse in male horses and they will actually mutilate themselves. Some even have to be euthanized due to the damage they cause to themselves. She has never actually bitten herself.

One of the teaching hospitals did a study on it years ago, and we sent all kinds of info on her and her pedigree, as well as information as to whether her parents had this same weird habit. I couldn't find the paper work on it.

Have any of you seen this behavior before?