running games question

[pasoglide]

When you teach them to run the barrels and stuff do you just let them run as they want or make them stay in gait ? I had an Appy mare that was gaited but when I started doing barrels on her she wouldn't gait anymore , so I am scared to run my paso's . Plus my Paso has never been ridden faster than the canter and he has no largo . I'm hoping my pinto paso's will have a better range of gait and I want to have fun on them .

[PattiB]

You can run and canter them but you will need to make them gait when you ask and canter when you ask not just let them choose what they want to do.

[motorgypsy]

Speed events are always done at a gallop unless they are set up for largo which is fun too of course. Chinook actually improved her largo after doing the speed circuit for a year as well as LD endurance. There is no reason for a horse to stop gaiting just because they are asked to gallop. I'd be willing to bet that a good paso fino trainer would have the app gaiting again in five minutes. But you don't do speed events on a horse that doesn't listen to you. It's just plain dangerous. Chinook bucked and didn't like to go the speed I asked for but she steered like a dream and stopped on a dime and that's what you have to have for speed events. A mount that can turn, start and stop instantaneously and when YOU ask for it.

I don't recommend that you do what we did which was to enter the speed events with NO preparation and go in there after a one minute explanation of how the pattern for the particular event worked and run all the events at a full gallop when neither I nor the horses had ever run at a full gallop with me aboard. We just went our out there and did it. DUMB? YUP. FUN OH YES!!

Be SURE you ride in a VERY SECURE WESTERN saddle WITH a SNUG flank set (don't ever ride that fast without that flank set to prevent the saddle from tipping forward) - the barrel saddles fit paso finos a lot better. Be sure you have a grippy fabric on the saddle, I used cage stirrups, good boots, a grab strap and you'd better believe I used that saddle horn on those hairpin turns to keep myself in a position to balance the horse. The hardest part of all was slowing down because all our guys do these giant hops and stop all at once and I have to lean way back and brace myself with the heel of my hand on the saddle horn to keep from being thrown forward the stop is so quick. Brandy is the worst to ride in speed events because she BOUNDS with these giant leaps. We always used sports medicine boots on them so they didn't clip themselves during the run and with those boots she could really turn on the speed. She took 1st in the arena race which is just "run as fast as you can all the way around" and the whole time I was praying - "Oh LORD just let me stay on the horse"!!! We did see one guy hit the ground when his saddle came loose and the worst part was - his wife fastened his cinch. OOOOOOOH. Not good!!

Speed events at a largo on a REAL largo horse would be fun but the real high speed largo horses I've see for the most part aren't the really agile, turn on a dime types. Brandy's our largo horse and as tiny as she is she still can't turn like Chinook can even with the support boots. She needs a straight course to really get up that largo speed. So if I were going to do speed events at a largo I wouldn't do any that required very tight turns and I'd use a big arena so the largo horses could really show off that speed.

We did have a couple who rode paso finos do speed events at a largo but quite frankly they looked kind of silly even though their horses had nice gait. It just wasn't close to a gallop.

[SandyMM]

pinto paso's will have a better range of gait and I want to have fun on them
I have to say that color alone won't give you range of gait, but bloodlines - and individuals with an aptitude for it - are far more likely to...
but the real high speed largo horses I've see for the most part aren't the really agile, turn on a dime types
You are joking....... n'est-ce pas?

[motorgypsy]

Range of gait is something I wish all the breeders including the fino breeders would make sure they have. If your offspring doesn't have any range of gait and just isn't really show quality regardless of that wonderful pedigree there's not a lot of market for a horse that finos and pronks in the general horse buying population.

Sandy if Chinook is over her maternity leave you'll have to take a ride on her at nationals. She's a HOOT to ride.

I'm not saying they don't exist But I just haven't ridden a superlargo that can turn and stope like Chinook or even BeeGee who is quite big but really quick. But one thing that gives Brandy a lot of her speed according to the vet is her hyperflexy long pasterns and they don't make for a quick turning horse. Seems like John Henry was a pretty big largo horse and Corito too and I enjoyed riding both of them.. I'm just used to the "beagles" of the paso world I guess and the bigger ones seem less quick with the exception of BeeGee who is a powerhouse. Brilliant has a HUGE stride and is pretty quick. I can't wait to get him trained but until I get the go ahead from the vet I won't be doing speed events on him because of the pelvic fracture. Sultan is quick but doesn't have the longer stride. Bonnie pretty much had it all but her arthritis is too severe to ride her anymore. She's probably not much over 650 pounds either although she has great bone. Silken has the longer stride but isn't quick. Adriel might be the best of the group. She has the stride and is quick and loves to run and grew up on the side of a mountain. Can't wait to ride her.:v::v:

Have you guys had any rain yet in GA? Upstate SC is dried up and brown. WE haven't had to mow the lawn for five weeks. Gonna have to change Greenville to Brownville if this keeps up much longer.

[SandyMM]

I'm not saying they don't exist But I just haven't ridden a superlargo that can turn and stope like Chinook or even BeeGee who is quite big but really quick.I would think that _most_ Paso owners have not ridden Pasos in a 'super largo' and would not be able to judge whether agility or lack of agility was a factor of top end speed. Besides, few people know how to ask for and ride a largo to the raggedy edge between brilliant speed and a total disaster.... Few people want to... ;) For those who say they've ridden true 'super largo', I say - maybe...

Now being agile at top speed in a largo - I'd say that you aren't going to get a 180° turn on a dime - physics, not agility, work against you there. It isn't that the horse who can gait super fast isn't agile, it's just that I think you can't have the two _extremes_ concurrently.
Seems like John Henry was a pretty big largo horse and Corito tooThey were both 15 hands in their prime... not _that_ big compared to many other breeds who are considered exceptionally agile.
I'm just used to the "beagles" of the paso world I guess and the bigger ones seem less quickMaybe like riding a bike down a steep hill and having to make a hard right hand turn as opposed to riding down the same hill in a sportscar with the windows up. Same speed, different sensation.

[Mystic Fire]

I will have to say that my largo gelding does not turn as well as my fino bred stallion. Sure, he can roll back to a pretty good degree, but he just doesn't get down in the rear the way I'd prefer. He can get his haunches under him very well on the straight shots, but will need to work slowly to get him to collect better in the turns.
But back to the initial question... when schooling my horses on the pattern I keep them in gait. If they break I don't get onto them much, I just don't want them to mix gaits (corto on the front and canter behind and such). Once the horse knows the pattern, I'll let them canter on the straight aways and bring them back into gait for the turns. When they have it all mastered I'll let them run full out, but always making sure that they drop back into gait when asked. Make sure you do plenty of slow work on circles to help maintain that true four beat gait when you're not practicing the pattern. Thay way you won't sacrifice gait for speed.
And a big peeve of mine is watching people practice on the barrels and cutting too close to the barrel when they are teaching the horse the pattern. Just remember when you add speed the horse will naturally come in closer to the barrel. So, when practicing at home or at the arena make sure you start out wide at first. You'll want to come into the "pocket" no closer than eight feet out from the barrel, then gradually tighten your turn to six feet, then coming out of the pocket at four feet away from the barrel. So, basically you are spiraling down as you go around the barrel. When you start adding speed the horse will lean into the turn and shorten that distance away from the barrel. If you teach your horse to come in too close during it's initial training, the horse's shoulder, or your knee, will hit the barrel when you start adding speed.
D.

[motorgypsy]

Interesting. Absolutely the horse must do the gait the rider asks for, not the gait it chooses - although I have to confess that on a 25 or 30 miler I pretty much let the horse choose the gait to rest a bit. But once Chinook did something that shook my bones so bad I had to lift her back up into gait immediately. Whatever it was - I sure don't want to ride it.:rolleyes:

Speaking of hitting barrels, Brandy was so bad about hitting trees and barrels for that matter that Kyle used to wear his roller blade knee pads to ride her in the woods. She did learn that her rider needed more clearance but it took some time. Chinook has never caused me to hit anything that I can recall because she's almost phobic about hitting something herself so no matter how fast she goes she won't clip the barrel. I fell off her at a dead stop trying to pick a carrot out of a bucket on top of a barrel because she wouldn't get close enough. It was pretty funny actually.

I guess to me, comparing many largo and tighter gaited paso finos is a bit like comparing a greyhound and beagle. But I'm sure some are a bit of both.

[pnalley]

When you are schooling your horse at home school him on the pattern at the walk. Keep your turns wide, once you add speed your turns will tighten up. If you start out practicing slow with tight turns, by the time you ad speed your horse will wind up shouldering the barrels.

Your horse needs to know the difference between his gait cues and your canter cues. He should have the strenght to carry his body in a slow canter on an approx 20 meter circle. He also needs to ba able to move away from leg pressure.

Once he knows the pattern ad a little speed, try a corto. Concentrate on proper turns, when you turn the last barrel for home, WALK him out. You need to keep him with a cool head. If you make a habit of running him out, you'll develope problems later on.

Sharan Camarillo has a really good book out on traing for games.

Get out there & have fun!

[motorgypsy]

That reminded me - many speed shows do NOT allow you to run your horse out of the arena through the gate so you do have to be sure you can get that horse stopped in the arena after crossing that finish line at a full gallop. For the best time you cannot slow at all until you pass through the laser so you don't have much distance to stop. You turn them and the best way is to do a slow to a canter and make a tight enough turn so you don't hit the timer again and then slow to gait and walk. Chinook would always fino out the gate which was OK - she's naturally a bit hyper - but it's a lot better if you can train them to go right down from gallop to canter to corto to flat walk and walk out the gait very slowly in a relaxed manner. I should have worked on this because all our guys would stop really quickly before I could even make a turn back into a circle and that was the hardest time of all for me to stay on.

Of course you can teach a sliding stop and put on skid boots but I'm not big on sliding stops so I didn't even try to teach that. We have several world class reining trainers nearby and we boarded at a barn where the owner had her horse in training for reining. She said they use a long shank bit to lift the head up and run the horse straight at the side the barn at high speed to get them to do a sliding stop. I've used this technique on a mare that had no whoa but certainly not at a full gallop.

[pnalley]

We used to run with Apps, talk about a blast! They run head to head, so it adds another element of difficulty. Stopping in the arena is not that big a deal, as long as your horse can turn you can turn him up the side of the arena.

Just do a lot of slow work and gradually add speed. Once they know the pattern you rarely actually work on the barrels.

[motorgypsy]

Excuse the "ignernt" question but please explain "running head to head"????:confused:

We only did speed events at our local horsemen association speed shows but they gave nice prizes and had a lot of participation. We never did 3D barrels for example although we knew a couple of people who did. I'd like to to try it a couple times anyway just for fun.

[Siggy]

We have several world class reining trainers nearby and we boarded at a barn where the owner had her horse in training for reining. She said they use a long shank bit to lift the head up and run the horse straight at the side the barn at high speed to get them to do a sliding stop.

Sorry but then she was just stupid to leave a horse in training with that type of trainer. That is NOT how you train a sliding stop, no more than special devices and rough training of Paso Finos is how you make a fino horse. The sliding stop is generally started and perfected long before the horse carries a reining bit. Comments like this hurt good reining trainers.

[pnalley]

With Apps they set up two pole patterns side by side and you race each other in elimination heats.

For poles you are set up back to back, you actually run past each other at the start & finish. It is big fun and the crowd really gets in to it.

But still tha majority of scholoing is done slow, with more concern on correct turns and placement of the horse body. Speed comes way later

[motorgypsy]

That sounds like great fun. I'll suggest doing that at our local horsemen's assoc. Do you have any videos?