What are resorteras?

[CarolU]

This was on ebay, and I've never seen these before. Could someone tell me what are they used for and how do they work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-HAND-MADE-PASO-FINO-RESORTERAS_W0QQitemZ220253686649QQihZ012QQcategory Z3177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Are they hobbles?

[CarolU]

While you're at it, what is a "Higher up face"

http://cgi.ebay.com/PASO-FINO-HAND-MADE-HIGHER-UP-FACE_W0QQitemZ220253489586QQihZ012QQcategoryZ16253 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[lalecl]

Looks like something that would go around the fetlock and make a jingle sound so the horse would pick it feetup higher. LOL Well!?!? LOL I am no expert.

Jingly stirrups?

I tried researching but found nothing.

[JennLM]

They look like weights to me Carol. I saw them last week along with all the other barbaric crap that person is selling. :mad2:

[CarolU]

I asked him my questions. We'll see what he says back.

I'm not asking him about the "Face up"....it seems pretty obvious what it is used for...and yes Jenn, barbaric.

Makes you wish the USDA would come to our shows and inspect for training scars. Heartbreaking to think that these most sensitive horses in the world have to forced to do anything - when they are so willing to do anything you ask!!

[GregM]

From what I have seen, Leila, it is indeed the jingle they make that gets a horse that's lazy with it's back feet to pick them up. Probably something that would be used briefly just to get them to think about the back feet.

[SandyMM]

They look like weights to me Carol. I saw them last week along with all the other barbaric crap that person is selling.They are hardly barbaric... They have wide, thick felt lining and the 'weights' are nothing more than rectangle loops similar to those used on bridles or other harness and can - at best - make a jingling sound. Based on the harness hardware I keep in stock, I doubt all the loops together weigh more than a few ounces.... _far, far_ less than a single 'average' horseshoe.

Some horses have 'lazy legs'... a minute or two with something similar to these 'resorteras' on one leg - or two - will make the horse be more 'aware' of that leg and/or can also help identify which leg(s) are causing a horse to be out of synch/gait. Or - you could spend months and several hundred dollars having your farrier experiment with angles and lengths of all 4 hooves guessing what's causing the problem...

Since 'resorteras' are easily found on YouTube and translated as 'slingshots', I'm mildly surprised that that wasn't already brought up. I suppose the 'resorteras' that were listed could be used by trainers who wanted 'leg lift' or other 'snappy' action by adding surgical tubing like Saddlebreds, but that doesn't fit the Paso way of going as much. I'm sure someone could adapt it to be used for training the fino horses to short step if they couldn't do it naturally on their own.

Try to save 'barbaric' for something truly vicious. Just because a piece of equipment is unknown does not automatically make it 'barbaric'...

The headlifter was badly translated as 'higher face' item. I wouldn't use it myself. In knowledgeable hands it could be used to 'bump up' a horse who works with his nose exceptionally low. It wouldn't have much - if any effect - on a horse who moved with his head up and tucked already due to the narrow range it could effectively be used at. It could be very rough in the hands of an unknowledgeable person who thought it was a be-all, end-all solution for a low headed horse.

[CarolU]

Thank you Sandy. I was wondering if maybe these are hobbles used to make the horse shuffle instead of break-over. The picture does appear to have different shaped rings on the two hobbles and they indeed could make a different sound that helps identify which foot is off...although it seems to me most trainers I've talked to and watched 'feel' that in their seat, or at least say they do. ;)

I'm reminded of that post where Sarah asked if hobbles with bungees were used on Paso Finos. Apparently some do?? I don't know.

As for the head-lifter, it looks pretty barbaric to me. This seller also has a very nasty hackamore listed, so I can see where Jenn is coming from. I certainly wouldn't use such a device since it goes against softness and natural collection and gait, and all that leads to a natural headset - the carriage that is natural for the horse.

I'm not sure how far we should let all this go before we remove the word "natural" from our rule book...or wait for the USDA to inspect us.

[SandyMM]

A trainer or clinician isn't always the one riding the horse. So if popping one of these items on a leg or two helps identify what the horse is doing wrong while the owner is riding it - that seems pretty efficient to me. Anything that helps identify a problem quickly so that it can be addressed and corrected seems like a good thing to me.

I have never seen surgical tubing used on Pasos - doesn't mean it isn't or is. The meaning of resortera as 'slingshot' seems to imply the straps could be used with tubing. I don't see a separate ring for attachment.

Like I said, save barbabric for the vicious stuff that can't be used in any manner except intentional cruelty, but don't assume all things are used cruelly just because the use is unknown or because some uses could be cruel.

As to Paso Finos being natural, I can only speak to my horses which are as natural as possible. PFHA is member-run and a majority of its members have voted repeatedly to strip away natural characteristics and allow insidious artificiality to creep in.

There's nothing natural about riding horses... even 'natural horsemanship' uses all kinds of artificial aids and 'toys'... What horse encounters 'carrot sticks', halters, longe lines, riders, saddles, wagons, etc. in the wild?

[Serendipity]

What horse encounters 'carrot sticks', halters, longe lines, riders, saddles, wagons, etc. in the wild?

And doesn't run like heck in the other direction ;)

remenber anytime we teach a horse to give to pressure any that is unnatural a horses way is to push back or any time ask them to back more than a step or 2 thats not natural either. theres tons of things when you look at it

I'm all for safe aids that when used briefly make fast safe adjustments or for training aids that are explained so i understand that looks can be deciving I will seldom let another rided try something new on my horses but i will let them try something new w/ me riding there has only been one item tried that i said "get it off" the moment we stepped off and most peole know i'm pretty darn picky about all my guys

I like training simple,fast and effective I've seen people correct a problem i have been trying to for months in 5 min and i could not have been happier and the lesson stuck no pain no abuse just a learning curve and life is good.

[CarolU]

Perhaps we should substitute "humane" for "natural?"

That would get rid of ALL the barbaric torture devices (even those used with "light hands" bull).

The point is our breed purposes to be "natural"....and NONE of what you see in the show ring or these videos is really natural gait, is it?

A person listed the inhumane things done to TWH's on another forum:

chemical irritants on fetlocks and in the anus
atropine in the eyes to cause dilation
cutting tails and the horse has to wear a tail set
4" padded shoes
chains on fetlocks
rubber bands on front feet during training
very very long shanked bits with curb chains
padded horses generally live in stalls 24/7 and in the dark
ball bearings or other painful things inserted in the hoof (I have heard they are now using little balls of leather so it cannot be detected on x-ray)
nails driven in to quick the hoof
trimming hooves with long toes to make them more painful
blinders so the horse will reach further
many TWHs begin riding training at 18 mos

To be honest, I can't say that our breed is much better...the chains are around the nose instead of the legs, the nails are in the curb instead of around the legs, the toes are trimmed long so the horse shuffles...I didn't know it was painful too. Our champions lived hobbled so they forget they knew how to step once.

I guess we shouldn't point fingers...

I hope your riding lessons are progressing Sandy.

[JennLM]

Sorry Sandy, the other devices the person listed are barbaric to *me*. Chains across the nose to me would certainly be such a device. Light hands or not. May as well agree to disagree on this subject.

Carol, any word back from him to explain what they were?

[Pasomom]

There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and as long as it doens't induce pain and agony for the horse, some of these devices, or techniques can work quite well. Not saying that there aren't bad things out there, but there are other ways to do things, as Serendipity says, that are fast and easy, and we just never thought of them before. ;)

[JennLM]

Carol, they are indeed weights.

"THE WEIGHT OF THE RESORTERAS ARE DESING TO IMPROVE

THE BACK HIGHER AND VELOCITY ON THE BACK LEGS.

USUALLY YOU PUT THEM ON THE HORSE AND LIVE HIM WITH THIS BOOTS

ALL THE TIME, AND WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO TRAIN HIM,

THEN YOU TAKE'M OFF. AFTER THAT PUT THEM BACK AGAIN

AND KEEP DOING THIS FOR APPROX. 3 WEEKS AND

YOU SHOULD SEE THE DIFFERENCE. ONCE YOU GET YOUR IDEAL

PERFORMANCE JUST STOP USING THEM. THE RESULTS SHOULD BE THAT

YOUR HORSE PUSH UP HIS BACK LEGS."

[Cindy]

Interesting thread. It is very interesting how horse owners can justify the methods used to train their horses. It is also interesting how others jump straight to "barbaric" whenever anything is presented that is not "how they do things". These devices are far from brabaric. What they are is "artificial devices". Artificial devices are prohibited from use on any horse at a PFHA show. But the PFHA cannot prohibit them from use at the farm. Only the horse owners can accomplish that.

So if these artificial devices are not "barbaric", why are they prohibited? They are prohibited because they artificially alter the way a horse performs. Just like all those devices that are used on the other gaited breeds that we so frown upon. So what's the difference? Why is it OK to use this seemingly innocuous devices on our horses. They don't hurt the horses. They do not cause the horses to be sore or to have scars. You just put them on their legs and they wear them like bracelets and (supposedly) they perform better because of wearing them. What's wrong with that? Open your eyes people. That's the same thinking that got the Walking horses where they are today. And that's the reason that these things were prohibited for use on our horses at shows. And only you as owners can prohibit them from use on your horses everywhere. And don't try and tell me that you have to do it because so and so trainer says so or that is just how they train so I have no say in it. FIND A DIFFERENT TRAINER!!!! And if you need that blue ribbon so badly, if you care so little for not only your breed but horses in general that you would let this kind of artificial manipulation of horses in and support it JUST FOR THAT RIBBON......FIND ANOTHER BREED!

I for one am sick and tired of the complacency amoung owners of this great breed about how their horses are treated. It makes me sick. This is the greatest breed of horse on the planet. They do not need to be artificially altered and turned into something that merely resembles what they once were like the other gaited breeds have. So some of you say that it is up to the PFHA to stop it. An Association can't stop what owners choose to do with their horses when not at a PFHA event. Only the owners can stop it. So, please, owners, take a look at your horses. And then think about how they are trained. If you have a doubt about whether or not the methods used are the best for the horse or for the breed, change. It is your responsibility. The horses are trusting you to keep them safe. Are you doing so?

[pnalley]

What she said!!!

http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/1.gif
http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif
http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/6.gif

The bad thing is ALL breeds suffer some sort of abuse for the almighty ribbon or point.

[Hacienda Radiante]

OK ladies, put your humor hats on. I agree with Cindy to a point. I mean, there can't really be any argument when it comes to things like drugging horses in the ring or trying to sneak in a metal noseband. I have never and WILL never understand the bicycle-chain nosebands I see for sale at some vendors tables. But you can take the logic too far. My horses find clippers barbaric and I have one that HATES the metallic sound of the farrier working (even hearing someone elses feet being trimmed sends him pacing and throwing his head). I have a Dirty Girl that doesn't like water unless it's passing her lips from a bucket. In order to get my horses to 'perform' for the bella forma classes I have to resort to barbaric techniques like bathing, clipping and trimming feet! Ask them, I'm positive they would rather be hairy, dirty and out in a field somewhere, preferably with a large, unattended bin of grain. :)

Seriously, though, if the item in question is used as a short-term training device, not a permanent part of the horses gear, and is not harmful to the horse (anything that causes sores would definitely be out), why not use it? I looked at the original post and the 'bracelets' seemed pretty innocuous to me. I've seen blingy stuff like that on the horses ankles in the Costume class.

Or is everyone suggesting that I give up whapping Dirty Girl on the butt with a branch when she refuses to cross creeks as we trail ride? A branch is, after all, an artificial aid, and I'm pretty sure it's prohibited in the show ring. :)

[Cindy]

No, actually crops are allowed in the show ring. They are an aid when used properly. The difference is that they do not artificial enhance and/or change a horse's movement. Artificial devices do. They alter the way a horse moves. And, yes, shoes do as well. But shoes are for proptection and we also have rules limiting what we can do with the shoes that we do use. These rules were put into place in order to keep our breed from becoming like the other gaited horse breeds in this country. And, yes, this device seems very innocuous. I said that myself. But it is the first step toward altering the breed. Do you really think that the Walking Horses started out with chains and soring? No, they started out with "bracelets". Just like these. And when the horses who were trained with the bracelets could not be beaten by the ones who were not trained with the bracelets, everyone started using the bracelets. And then someone figured out that if they used chains instead of the bracelets that this not-so-good backyard pony could actually BEAT that other well bred horse who was only trained in the bracelets. And then they shared this info with another trainer who had a top show horse that he was training with the bracelets and found that he was unbeatable if he used the chains instead of the bracelets. Well, then the chains were not enough advantage for the backyard pony to beat the good horse so the trainer experimented with soring the horse and what do you know, he was back in the game.

It doesn't happen over night, people. It happens so slowly that many don't even notice until that one day when they realize that the movement of the winning horses cannot be obtained without the artificial devices. It is no longer a natural movement that is enhanced through the normal training process. Do you really think that that first guy who used the "bracelets" to enhance the movements of his Walking Horse thought that, decades later, the breed that he loved would no longer resemble the breed that he loved? And that using those bracelets would be the begining of so much pain for so many horses to come? I highly doubt it. I am sure that he too thought that the "bracelets" were pretty innocuous.

But those who wrote our rules over thirty years ago DID know as they saw it first hand. Many came from other gaited breeds and their hope was that our breed would not end up like those other breeds. They hoped that through the rules that they made, our breed would continue to be a breed that one did not need to torture in order to win in the ring. THAT is why the rules are in place and THAT is why it is up to the owners to NOT ALLOW their horses to be trained with artificial devices just to get that blue ribbon. THAT is the responsibility of everyone who owns and loves this breed. To NOT let our breed slowly fall into the same trap that the other breeds did.

[CarolU]

I didn't realize they were weights and thought at first that they were similar to cadence beads, based on what Sandy said. Not bad. But, since they are weights, I have to agree with Cindy, for all the reasons she stated. You start with weights, then use hobbles and bungees, then sore with nails...that whole list of things the TWH people do to "improve" gait. You get farther and farther from what is natural for the horse OR important to the breed. Pretty soon you no longer recognize what is presented as a horse's gait.

I'll use hobbles as an example. The Classic Fino gait is supposed to be a soft break-over gait that is executed NATURALLY with no evidence of force or enhancement. Yet in the interest of shorter and shorter steps, horses are hobbled so they shuffle instead of step. And of course, it takes less time to move the foot and the horse moves faster. So this is winning when it SHOULD BE disqualified. It certainly no longer is the beautiful Classic Fino gait the horse is known for.

And the same for the weights. If they artificially cause the horse to raise his feet higher, they alter the natural gait.

Once all this starts....and it has started...where will it stop?

[Cindy]

I'll use hobbles as an example. The Classic Fino gait is supposed to be a soft break-over gait that is executed NATURALLY with no evidence of force or enhancement. Yet in the interest of shorter and shorter steps, horses are hobbled so they shuffle instead of step. And of course, it takes less time to move the foot and the horse moves faster. So this is winning when it SHOULD BE disqualified. It certainly no longer is the beautiful Classic Fino gait the horse is known for.


OK. I am not sure from whence you garnered this particular information. But I can tell you that I know an awful lot of trainers in this breed who train in all different kinds of ways. Many that I find disgusting. But I have never, ever heard of any of them riding a horse with hobbles on. Do some train with hobbles? Yes, absolutely. But the training that is done with the hobbles has absolutely nothing to do with making the horse fino and the horses are NOT ridden with the hobbles. It is more of a domination/control thing.

[Hacienda Radiante]

ROFLMAO -- OK, Cindy, I'm going to show up dragging a mondo, leafy branch at the next show you judge! That way you'll definitely know I'm on Dirty Girl! Wonder if Freddie will let me in the gate?

I guess what it all comes down to is that showing IS an artificial environment, it's a matter of how much we want to mold the horses to the ideal and how much we are willing to let them actually be horses. I'm of the opinion that distinction is the the judges hands since in the end neither the trainers, nor the PFHA, nor the owner/rider actually decide who wins a class. The judges are interpreting the standards set before them and everyone else tries to second guess their opinion. So if the goal is a very natural horse, with a relaxed and happy way of going, why are we seeing powder-kegs pinned in Pleasure classes? That just encourages people to 're-tool' their performance horses with harsh techniques to bring them down to the new perceived Pleasure standard. Perhaps rather than solely pinning based on execution of gait, look at the overall 'package', e.g. penalize Pleasure horses that don't appear to have any connection to the rider.

You can ban every scrap of equipment from the ring and farm and there are still ways for a trainer to hurt a horse with their bare hands, as anyone who owns a horse that has been 'eared down' will attest. Again, to take it to the extreme: I have never thought of 'twine' as an artificial aid, but if I tie my horses tail to the side during training to get them out of the habit of swishing, I am affecting the way they go -- I am artificially eliminating tail-swishing (assuming that twine isn't legal in the show ring either -- lol). Ditto using rear-end collectors. Now I am asking the horse to collect himself underneath. These things are artificial aids that affect the way that a horse goes. And I see all of these things done in the PFHA show warm-up areas, in full view of stewards and PFHA staff, not just secretly somewhere at a farm. Properly used they are tools, not weapons, in the training process. Animal abuse is a human mindset, not necessarily the fault of equipment (although those bicycle chain nosepieces really trouble me...).

So, to paraphrase Carol, where does it end? Can't speak for Fino or Performance, since I'm not showing at that level yet, but I like the recent trend of judges asking Pleasure classes to do the unexpected, such as dismount and remount in the ring. I think it goes a long way towards ferreting out the people who are actually spending time with their horses (and horses that might actually be what a Pleasure horse was intended to be -- pleasant) and those that either have the trainer set the horse up and hop on, or resort to 'quick fix' aids to get the horses under control. Perhaps there are more simple tests like this that the judges could use to determine the REAL relationship between the horse and rider and which is really the superior animal for the standards of that class.

PS Didn't realize the 'bracelets' were weighted either -- I thought they had all the jingle-bobs on them just to make noise, and I was actually thinking the padding was a good idea because the horses ankle skin wouldn't get pinched. So much for my Mary Sunshine moment. :)

[lalecl]

Dear ipfyh55,

HI! THE WEIGHT OF THE RESORTERAS (BOOTS) ARE DESING TO IMPROVE THE BACK HIGHER AND VELOCITY ON THE BACK LEGS. USUALY YOU PUT THEM ON THE HORSE AND LIVE HIM WITH THIS RESORTERAS ALL THE TIME, AND WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO TRAIN HIM THEM YOU TAKE'M OFF. AFTER THAT YOU PUT THEM BACK AGAIN AND KEEP DOING THIS IN APROX. 3 WEEKS AND YOU SHOULD SEE THE DIFFERENCE. ONCES YOU GET YOUR IDEAL PERFORMANCE JUST STOP USING THEM. THANKS

- manolo-6883

[Cindy]

ROFLMAO -- OK, Cindy, I'm going to show up dragging a mondo, leafy branch at the next show you judge! That way you'll definitely know I'm on Dirty Girl! Wonder if Freddie will let me in the gate?

I guess what it all comes down to is that showing IS an artificial environment, it's a matter of how much we want to mold the horses to the ideal and how much we are willing to let them actually be horses. I'm of the opinion that distinction is the the judges hands since in the end neither the trainers, nor the PFHA, nor the owner/rider actually decide who wins a class. The judges are interpreting the standards set before them and everyone else tries to second guess their opinion. So if the goal is a very natural horse, with a relaxed and happy way of going, why are we seeing powder-kegs pinned in Pleasure classes? That just encourages people to 're-tool' their performance horses with harsh techniques to bring them down to the new perceived Pleasure standard. Perhaps rather than solely pinning based on execution of gait, look at the overall 'package', e.g. penalize Pleasure horses that don't appear to have any connection to the rider.

You can ban every scrap of equipment from the ring and farm and there are still ways for a trainer to hurt a horse with their bare hands, as anyone who owns a horse that has been 'eared down' will attest. Again, to take it to the extreme: I have never thought of 'twine' as an artificial aid, but if I tie my horses tail to the side during training to get them out of the habit of swishing, I am affecting the way they go -- I am artificially eliminating tail-swishing (assuming that twine isn't legal in the show ring either -- lol). Ditto using rear-end collectors. Now I am asking the horse to collect himself underneath. These things are artificial aids that affect the way that a horse goes. And I see all of these things done in the PFHA show warm-up areas, in full view of stewards and PFHA staff, not just secretly somewhere at a farm. Properly used they are tools, not weapons, in the training process. Animal abuse is a human mindset, not necessarily the fault of equipment (although those bicycle chain nosepieces really trouble me...).

So, to paraphrase Carol, where does it end? Can't speak for Fino or Performance, since I'm not showing at that level yet, but I like the recent trend of judges asking Pleasure classes to do the unexpected, such as dismount and remount in the ring. I think it goes a long way towards ferreting out the people who are actually spending time with their horses (and horses that might actually be what a Pleasure horse was intended to be -- pleasant) and those that either have the trainer set the horse up and hop on, or resort to 'quick fix' aids to get the horses under control. Perhaps there are more simple tests like this that the judges could use to determine the REAL relationship between the horse and rider and which is really the superior animal for the standards of that class.

PS Didn't realize the 'bracelets' were weighted either -- I thought they had all the jingle-bobs on them just to make noise, and I was actually thinking the padding was a good idea because the horses ankle skin wouldn't get pinched. So much for my Mary Sunshine moment. :)

Radiante, first of all, I seem to have set you off so to speak. Not sure why as this is just a website where we are "discussing" but I can go with that. Whatever floats your boat. Apparently first up on topic is that if indeed you ever show under me as a Judge you are going to carry something that I can only assume is similar to a crop. If so, please direct yourself to the current rule book of the PFHA in order to determine whether or not your crop is within the limits set by said rule book. If it is, I, and whoever the steward is, will have no problem with the admittance of said crop. If it is not within the guidelines, as it would be with anything else in question, it will not be admitted into the arena.

So, in reading your next paragraph, apparently you are weighing on MY shoulders the entire burden of the broad scope of judges who are allowed to judge in PFHA shows. Not sure why you are laying this on MY particluar shoulders as I am just one person who has absolutely no control over who the 20 plus regions choose to judge their shows. But you are apparently also weighting me with the entire burden of what is a Pleasure horse as compared to what is a Performance horse. And I expect that you do not expect me to have an answer to this. Unfortunately for you, I do. But not as a judge. As I judge my job is to judge fairly and correctly each class that is presented before me. That is all. I am not, as a Judge, the one and only person who will decide the fate of this breed. I am just a judge. But I am going to answer this first question not as a Judge but as a trainer. And as a trainer it is my job to determine which class is appropriate for each horse and which class I think said horse can win. Each individual horse is different. I may be able to show one horse in both the Pleasure and the Performance division. Another may only be suited for either Pleasure or Performance. But as a trainer it is my job to decide in which class to show each horse. The judges job is merely to judge the class that is presented before him in accordance with the rule book.

So on to your next paragraph. Tieing a horses tail does not change the way that the horse moves. It only teaches the horse to keep his tail still. The same with what you term the "rear end collector" it does not in fact do that. Any knowledgable trainer will tell you this. What it does is to teach the horse to keep his tail still. Thus it does not affect the movement of the horse and therefore is not an "artificial device". It simply keeps the tail still. If the membership so desires, they can propose a rule that will ban these devices from the show grounds just as the "artificial devices" are banned. However, at this time, they are legal.

Glad you you like for the horses to be tested in the class. I agree with you. I would like to see the classes that should be tested more to be tested more. But that does not really pertain to the discussion at hand so I will refrain from discussing here. And, other than that, I think I am finished. So, see ya.

[CarolU]

Cindy, on the shuffle step, if it is not done by hobbles (which I was told on this board), how is it done? I was also told it was done by letting the toes grow long so the horse can't break over and has to shuffle to move forward.

Regardless of how it is done, it is a shuffle and not a step and should not IMO be acceptable. "Paso Fino" means fine step, not fastest shuffle. It looks very stressed and artificial.

[Cindy]

Carol, you would have to give me an example of what you are refering to and then if I know who trained the horse I could ask that person how the horse was trained. All I am telling you is what I know from my experience. I cannot speak on that of which I have no idea. What I can tell you is that I know of no Paso Fino horse trainers who would ride a horse hobbled. It is not, to my knowledge, done. Perhaps it is done, just not by those to which I have spoken about training Paso Fino horses. And I have spoken to a great number of very well respected trainers in this breed. And do so on a regular basis. And they speak to me freely. And still I know of none who do this.

[Cindy]

By the way, where on this board were you told of this?

[StephB]

I like the recent trend of judges asking Pleasure classes to do the unexpected, such as dismount and remount in the ring.

I'm curious, when did they stop doing this? I always remember having to dismount/remount back in the 80's and I thought it was a requirement then, but I can't remember now.

[StephB]

I've never heard of riding in hobbles either. Now the long toes and no heel... well, some people believe that they make a pacey horse gait better by breaking up the timing of the undesirable gait.

[CarolU]

Carol, you would have to give me an example of what you are refering to and then if I know who trained the horse I could ask that person how the horse was trained. All I am telling you is what I know from my experience. I cannot speak on that of which I have no idea. What I can tell you is that I know of no Paso Fino horse trainers who would ride a horse hobbled. It is not, to my knowledge, done. Perhaps it is done, just not by those to which I have spoken about training Paso Fino horses. And I have spoken to a great number of very well respected trainers in this breed. And do so on a regular basis. And they speak to me freely. And still I know of none who do this.

Cindy, this off the Running W thread in this Forum.

I am concerned about the 'shuffling' fino horses many (most/all?) of whom are hobbled in their stalls 24/7. Kind of reminds me of the 'logic' behind foot-binding... (outlawed, of course)...

I would send you video of a shuffler but haven't found one on-line. It was one of your clients (you can probably guess who) who told me they made them shuffle by elongating the toes so they can't break over.

[Cindy]

Cindy, this off the Running W thread in this Forum.




Carol, I just read through that entire thread and did not find where anyone said that any horses were ridden in hobbles. If it does indeed say that, could you please reference exactly WHERE it says that? Thanks.

Also, was this directed to me?

I would send you video of a shuffler but haven't found one on-line. It was one of your clients (you can probably guess who) who told me they made them shuffle by elongating the toes so they can't break over.

If so, I have no idea who or what you are talking about. Perhaps you could PM me to explain the statement.

[SandyMM]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyMM http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/images/solido/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/showthread.php?p=183753#post183753)
I am concerned about the 'shuffling' fino horses many (most/all?) of whom are hobbled in their stalls 24/7. Kind of reminds me of the 'logic' behind foot-binding... (outlawed, of course)...
OK, I double-checked on this and I was only partly right. There were some trainers who used to hobble horses to force a short step. There were some trainers who used to ride horses hobbled... obviously not a good idea... might have been a number of skinned knees and noses... The shuffling gait is another result of another kind of 'training'...

BTW - just because someone posts under a latin name and has Paso Fino tack for sale doesn't necessarily mean they know the best or intended use for everything they list to sell...

[CarolU]

Carol, I just read through that entire thread and did not find where anyone said that any horses were ridden in hobbles. If it does indeed say that, could you please reference exactly WHERE it says that? Thanks.

Also, was this directed to me?



If so, I have no idea who or what you are talking about. Perhaps you could PM me to explain the statement.

I didn't say the horses were ridden hobbled, just hobbled to shorten their stride. If a horse is hobbled 24/7 long enough, it would no longer step. Kind of the same idea as weights....if the horse is used to weights it would continue to adjust it's step for the weight until it learned it didn't' have to.

Yes, that second part was directed to you. I'll PM you.

[Cindy]

I didn't say the horses were ridden hobbled, just hobbled to shorten their stride. If a horse is hobbled 24/7 long enough, it would no longer step. Kind of the same idea as weights....if the horse is used to weights it would continue to adjust it's step for the weight until it learned it didn't' have to.

Yes, that second part was directed to you. I'll PM you.


My mistake. Thought you said ridden. I guess I thought that as being hobbled when not ridden would not, in my thinking, make a horse do anything other than stand still. I don't think it would affect their gait under saddle. If it did, it would most likely make the gait bigger. You know like when you have been carrying something and when you put it down your arms go up involuntarily. Or if you have been wearing heavy boots and then take them off. You would step higher when not wearing them. Hobbles were invented to keep horses from running away where there were no fences. I doubt that those who hobbled their horses originally for this purpose would have been too keen on the horses moving with tiny little "shuffling" steps so I doubt that hobbles would cause them to do so.

[motorgypsy]

Of course I have a serious problem with devices that are used in an abusive manner, although just looking at one really is not a good way of evaluating its severity. Consider the Tom Thumb bit for example. I would venture to say that most horse people think it's a very kind and gentle bit. I would also say that most people on here know that it is very very severe and painful. A well made and well selected spoon bit however is quite comfortable and out horses all like them yet it certainly looks like a torture device. I think one has to see the device used as it was designed to be used before making a judgment. Regardless of how gentle a device is, if it bloodies the horse's nose or mouth - it's been used in too severe a manner or there was an accident involving it which I would hope could be avoided although I've seen the entire side and face of a horse bloodied by a flat halter.

But back to the ankle devices that actually change the way of going - this makes me FURIOUS! I see paso finos every now and then who are actually pinned who are walking what looks like a Spanish Walk - very exaggeratedly slow and large steps. It is totally unnatural and I really don't understand why they aren't disqualified. At nationals one was not pinned at all but I saw one win at a Piedmont show. Our horses do NOT walk like that naturally. I can see the use of something like this after an injury to build strength in one leg and I can even see the used of a velcro type light weight to help a horse strengthen a weak leg after an injury - but NOT to change the way the horse moves. If the horse is low in the rear and high in the front - that's the way the horse moves - and IF one changes this by using weights and things and this horse is bred and it's offspring sold at high dollar because the horse won AFTER being trained in weights the as far as I'm concerned the buyer was cheated. They did not see the parent animal more the way it would have without artificial stimulation so they had no idea what actual genetics for movement that horse had.

Speaking of TW's, my best friend in high school boarded at a barn that showed saddlebreds and TW's and the shows were right across the street from the boarding barn and we went to all of them and we watched the trainer at the barn on a daily basis. Chains were used, hooves were allowed to grow hugely long and high and the horses were indeed sored to get that high step. I was horrified at the time and have never forgotten it. Also, it's one thing when the horse is doing trained movements which are know to be taught as with the Lippizans. It's another thing when taught movements are represented as being the natural way the horse moves or when the movement of the horse has been altered so drastically that there is no way to see the natural way the horse moves. This kind of thing is disgusting.

I now live next door to a barn where a Puerto Rican trainer used to train paso finos on a daily basis. I've also visited and talked to a number of other paso fino trainers, two of which live quite close to me. I've never seen them keep a horse in hobbles to shorten the stride. The really sought after trainers watch a paso fino pretty much from birth and advise their clients about the abilities of the paso fino as it develops. And I've seen youngsters in a large paddock fino including our own mare who has a nice largo and who will fino at liberty. They are indeed chasing the "ultimate fino horse" but many will also will train and promote any paso fino that show promise in any of the major divisions and you will see them riding in pleasure, performance and fino on horses they have trained. The good ones will not take on a paso fino if the owner insists on training it for a division they know it will not be successful in because it hasn't the natural talent already.

I agree that we as owners must insist on the integrity of our breed regarding both the way it moves and the way it looks for that matter. The silliest thing about the tail quieter is that a Colombian whose family has owned and trained paso finos for generations told me that the rule against tail swishing was put into the rule book because the registry and owners wanted a horse in the show ring that was relaxed and happy and a quiet tail is a good indication that a horse is relaxed and happy. So what do the owners of the swishy tailed paso finos do??? Get it more relaxed and happy by giving it lots of love and carrots? In our dreams maybe. No - they put the tailer quieters on them to TEACH them not to swish their tail. Kind of defeats the purpose. This is one rules I wish we could dump. A horse that is really swatting its tail around could be penalized but a few swats at flies should not count off. A good judge can tell if a horse is relaxed and happy. They don't have to count tail swishes.

Oh well - enough ranting for tonight. We're in a swamp right now from so much rain.

[Serendipity]

actually pinned who are walking what looks like a Spanish Walk - very exaggeratedly slow and large steps. It is totally unnatural and I really don't understand why they aren't disqualified.

Prueba did this at the first show i took her to in AL several yrs ago now as a 4yr. she was wearing a soft leather bosel the trainer at the time yelled at us to make her walk right it was pretty and felt neat what ever it was but she does not do it anymore she has been trained not to

the items that started this though the bracelets doing not look cruel i would never use unless i ajusted them to have bells and road in an x-mas parade but thats me i do not understand the second item so would carry no opinion on it till i knew how and what its uses were

course both seem much less sever than the metal nose band and chains i have seen at show. but again who am i really to judge other than to decide what it or is not used on what i own.

when i go to a show i am but an exhibitor i fallow that rule book to my best inturmitaion and though i agree a judge should judge what is presented in front of them i also feel it is their responsiblity as a whole to tell the exhibitors that there horse is in the wrong class if that is the case. i've showen against fino horses in pleasure classes and it is so disheartening to have that horse place above the rest of the pleasure horses and it was as odvious as can be that it was fino (ei no extention,very tight and quick,no change in speed at the largo(i know this because i was behind it a ways back in the class and passed it and it never did change speed) and it finoed across the board and the horse was in full collection) as a suggestion to all some of us may have trouble decideing what class our horse is best in exspeacilly newbies and instead of being thrown to the wolves to guess a little help would be nice.

but that is enough on that. this thread is about devices and what is or is not cruel,i feel a device that helps you learn/teach a horse in a humane way is a benifit in the long run.if i'm useing a bit that just does not work for the horse its sometimes great to beable to "try out" some to see the differnt effect how the horse likes and responds

and again every thing is based on each persons views I do not like to see a tied tail or one that is tied to the saddle in some way or the other hand. I do own and have used a retrunka or buttbasket of some form to tie the tail from swishing as some horses this becomes a habit like chewing your finger nails would be. now how offenten do i use it well less see i think it might be in the tack room or was it in the trunk,wait i know the trailer,oh heck i'd have to look its one of those places

i think?