Snaffle bits....Hey Stella and other bit experts

[Lynn L.]

Hi Stella and the other bit experts,

You recently mentioned that you didn't like snaffles on most pasos because their mouths and bodies weren't right for it. (?) I was wondering when you had time if you could elaborate on that. I would love to know more!

My trainer was thinking that maybe the leverage bits were easier for the horse to balance on? I would appreciate it if you could explain this for me. My trainer has classical training, like you, but she doesn't have a lot of experience with pasos. So she is eager to hear what you have to say.

Thanks!

[Pasogirlz]

Great thread Lynn! I too cannot wait to hear what they have to say. :D

[appyday]

I am not a paso person but I would assume you do not get the head set or the engaging of the hindquarters using a snaffle..not enough pick up for the head or flex at the pole..You want pasos to move off their hind end round and use themselves..this is not the bit for that...IMO again..I am not a paso person...

[Pasogirlz]

I am not a paso person but I would assume you do not get the head set or the engaging of the hindquarters using a snaffle..not enough pick up for the head or flex at the pole..You want pasos to move off their hind end round and use themselves..this is not the bit for that...IMO again..I am not a paso person...

Yeah, you're practically paso-less :lol:

[appyday]

Naw I have them I am just dumb....never had a paso lesson..never nothing..got on them and went...just figured out stuff on my own..sent Bubba to a trainer...never went..had him hauled

[CarolU]

I am not the expert Stella is, but do have quite a bit (little pun there) of experience with snaffles and Paso Fions. The jointed snaffle has a 'nutcracker' affect when you pull the reins. The broken joint puts pressure on the roof of the mouth and the horse moves their head out and down to relieve the pressure. This is the headset you typically see on QH's and Paints, Appys, etc. Lowering their head puts their weight forward on the front end and can ruin your gait, since what you want is what Shelley described, the weight on the back end with the front end light.

The action of a leverage bit puts the pressure behind the chin (as does a properly adjusted jaquima). The horse will move their head in and up to releave the pressure. This shifts the weight back and helps to collect the horse.

That said, you CAN train collection the 'dressage way' on the snaffle bit, but it takes a lot more time then a leverage bit does. I have seen many horses here who "don't gait" and it's almost always the western training methods with the snaffle bit that lengthens the horse that is the problem.

You can aleviate this somewhat by usuing a comfort snaffle or multiple jointed snaffle instead of the traditional single joint snaffle. Then the pressure is on the tongue rather then the soft pallet.

I hope this helps.

BTW - I believe (I'm not sure of this part because I don't use spoon bits) that the Colombian spoon bit is designed so that the horse moves their head to hold the bit so the spoon rests on the toungue, rather then against the soft pallet This brings the head in and up on a no-contact rein.

[halfmoonfino]

I am not the expert Stella is, but do have quite a bit (little pun there) of experience with snaffles and Paso Fions.

Paso Fions...sorry, had to laugh! :lol: Sounds like something out of a Chemistry text....

Ok, about the bits, I have used snaffles on Pitty before with mixed results. On the one hand, it's good for suppling and lateral work. On the other, Pitty hated it :-? . Yeah, he really, really hated it. He preferred the no-port Weymouth curb I had him in for two years (and he wasn't a fan of that either, hence why we don't use bits anymore). The main problem was the shape of the bit in his mouth. Now Pitty has a very narrow jaw, low palate, and thick tongue. Therefore any bit going to be hard pressed to find room in there. Btu the problem withthe snaffle was, because of his narrow jaw, the "nutcracker" effect pressure was not displaced properly, causing him a great deal of discomfort. Not only that, the joint stuck him in the palate even when the reins were totally slack. As soon as any bit pressure was applied, he started tossing his head and trying to run through the bit. Even a french-link was not comfortable for him. So to some extent, mouth size and conformation have a LOT to do with how a bit fits. Now Pitty will happily open his mouth, accept a bit, and carry it for me. I just can't engage the reins. That begs the question, "so why use a bit on him anyway?". I don't.

Snaffles also encourage a lower headset. So if you're looking or your horse to get low and round up, then a snaffle is a great choice. My mom's Walker was in a curb and did terrible, so I popped a plain old eggbutt in there and he did fine. He's a running walk horse, so his head has to be super low to gait. He's currently bitless right now as well, but a snaffle is the bit of choice for him if you use one.

But Pasos are supposed to raise the root of their necks in order to gait. If not, most of them will end up in some sort of pacey variation or a trot. Pitty trotted in a snaffle at first. I teach self carriage with any type of headgear, though, so now I could put a snaffle on him and he'd carry his own head for gait. That's a whole 'nother discussion, though. So, unless you teach your Paso to self-carry without the aid of the reins to set his head, you might end up with a choppy/incorrect gait. Just depends on the horse. Now some Pasos might need to lower their heads a bit, in which case a snaffle might work wonders. Again, it all depends on your horse!

I think snaffles are lighter bits that encouage good bend and flexion, and believe me, there is nothing wrong with training your Paso to go calmly and comfortably in a snaffle. Just be sure he likes it and it fits his mouth well. Some horses will just never like a snaffle. As Carol said, training in a snaffle to self-carry will take time. But I believe that with our horses, we have all the time in the world. With any horse I own, ride, or train, I am very slow and make sure I do all that is necessary for excellent performance, behavior, and comfort.

I think the mouth size might have something to do with it. But I'd have to go around and look at Pasos other than Pitty to be sure on that! His jaw is...well, it's uncommonly narrow. When I put my fist in his mouth (and I have small, child-sized hands) I touch molars on either side.

If your horse doesn't like curbs, you might consider riding in a bosal or Jaquima if a snaffle doesn't work out.

[movo]

Hi, I'm new. I just bought my first Paso Fino. Actually my first gaited horse of any breed. I am a dressage rider and have been for years and years. Actually, the Paso I bought (who will not be home with me for a couple more weeks) rode beautifully in a Dr. Marshall bitless bridle. It was also my first experience with a bitless bridle.

Collection comes from behind, not from a head set. Through the action of hind legs, and the rounding/lifting of the back, then the poll will relax, head hang like a pendulum and front end will be lightened. I believe leverage should only be used as a refinement of aids and not to set the head and I will follow through with this on my paso. My seat and calves brought her into a nice contact in the bitless bridle and she did a lovely corto and a nice largo. Hope I spelled those right. She was sooo easy, I just could hardly believe it.

Snaffle are jointed so they can work each side of the jaw independently. Not so they can poke the top of the horse's mouth. Certainly, in the wrong hands, a snaffle can be very hard on a horse and be poking the roof of the mouth constantly. I actually use french link snaffles so that this cannot happen.

[movo]

Sorry, I meant a Dr. Cook's bitless bridle. How do you edit these posts. I'll have to figure it out.

[Pasogirlz]

Welcome movo
http://bestsmileys.com/welcome/7.gif

Glad you could join us. There are a few converted dressage riders around the forum. So you are in good company here. ;-) You did a fine job of spelling corto and largo. Feel free to ask any questions you like. We have a very helpful group here. 8-)

btw-the edit button is on the top right corner of your post. ;-)

WELCOME MOVO! :D

[movo]

Well, I won't be converted, but I'll enjoy both. Can't give up my dressage horse or my driving minis or my hackney, but I'm sure my paso will open up a whole new slice of life for me.

Thanks for the welcome and the help.

[Pasogirlz]

Well, I won't be converted, but I'll enjoy both. Can't give up my dressage horse or my driving minis or my hackney, but I'm sure my paso will open up a whole new slice of life for me.

Thanks for the welcome and the help.

That's what I used to say about my beloved Arab horses. ;-) My poor Princess hardly ever gets any action these day.

[stella]

Well, this is great, I wont have to write so much!
(and its so nice to see so many educated people willing to contribute!)

Carol's description is right, of how the snaffle acts. This is appropriate for most trotting breeds, because due to the conformational differences, you lower the head to round the back to properly get the back legs under the horse, begin the proper "bascule."
Only after you have strengthened the back/topline of the horse to perform this, and have the horse driving primarily off the hindend, which is what collection is about, THEN you start to lighten the forehand by raising the head.

Also remember that at a certain point however, EVERY DISCIPLINE, english and western, to "finish" a horse(its training)....means you switch to some sort of curb bit, because the curb "speaks" to the horse with "adjectives" and adverbs, working on three places of the horse's head, the poll and chin too(and with a loose shank, those places WELL BEFORE the mouth at all), which the snaffle never addresses. THe snaffle is, and always has been, considered a simple BEGINNING bit in training.

What's nice about the Paso is, its conformation is such that we can USUALLY skip this step of lowering the head in that way, because its neck is set higher into the body, its wither lower and spine staighter, and back end is already more under the body, as well as legs. We kinda have the first part of collection already "built in!" (and in breeding, I for one am careful to insure it STAYS in!) That's what makes other types of beginning training gear more appropriate, namely the bitless headgears of various types. I tend to avoid a standard western hackamore, too, as it tends to lower the head, appropriate for QHs but not our guys- sidepulls often do OK).
Yes, there are SOME Pasos - namely ones with a VERY strong underneck, often just close to ewe neck, and/or extremely high set, that may tend to hollow behind the neck at the wither, that often look what I call"pseudocollected" - the back end may get under, but because the horse cant round thru the shoulder/wither/neck area properly, the forehand weight is kept from being displaced rearward by this hollowing, so the horse stays heavy in the forehand(and often trocha) -on that horse it might help to use a broken snaffle to lower the forehand to STRENGTHEN the musculature of this area first..to collect properly - BOTH trotters and pasos must "lift" and round throughout this part and entire spine and topline.
When I do go to bit, I often do use a rubber-covered jetera- just a piece of cord covered with surgical tubing, that is in essence a very soft snaflle, but not a broken one....just to get the horse used to something in its mouth, and very light, giving pressure. I find they learn to relax with their mouths shut easily on this....then, I decide which curb to use, but the Colombian bosal (and even the old PR rope one, working off knots) already has the root of the neck set, the horse has the fundamentals of collection already "down" in its reportoire quite well.
I think its a good idea to bit a Paso at some point, even if you choose not to usually-or ever-ride in it yourself. If something happened to you, or for whatever reason someone else rode your horse, they'd likely put a bit in its mouth......this would be traumatizing for the animal, and possibly dangerous for the rider(and may be your liability, depending on circumstances)...so just "make it a point" to properly bit the horse, just for its own well-being.

[Brigitte]

Welcome Movo!!

[GeorgeGuns]

Now, here is where I rebel.
I had to put Lucero in a snaffle to deal with her poll issues. She abxolutely hates a curb. Hates a jaquima (well ignores is largely, lol), loves a ring snaffle with slobber straps. Why? Because after I enlightened her that this owner will actually release pressure when she does a thing, she took that concept and ran with it. Am I worried about headset with a snaffle on her or any paso? Heck no! Why? Because pressure and release - you can teach a horse anything with this including how to set their head. Just put the pressure on til they find your spot, then release. Of course, using a curb is faster... it does depend on having the right balance between the mouthpiece/spoon, cheek and shank, and angles and all that. Too much of a vertical curb can really get some horses upset if they aren't ready to carry at that angle. Too horizontal and you'll find yourself on the reins all the time to get that nose in. Too heavy and you might get a lot of rooting or bad behavior. Snaffles are, to me, less complicated and I feel like I can teach more.
There are some things I do like about Paso bits. Most have loose shanks, so you can actually give a one rein cue and if the horse is trained to lightness, it will get it. I like all the roller combos, the incredible choices of mouthpieces. Put me in a shop full of paso bits and I look as zoned as a man in a hardware shop! I'll spend half the day feeling the bits! hehehe.

That said, I do agree that the usual manner of snaffle use is not always the best thing for most folks to use on a Paso. One also needs to consider the horse's exact difficulty. If its lateral flexion, a snaffle is better choice than a curb. If they are breaking at the poll and not using the whole neck, it may be a variety of problems and a snaffle may be appropriate. If the horse is rooting a snaffle will be hard to get results with.

One of the things that I enjoy about "typical" paso training is that its done bitless at first. All the best trainers/riders (IMO) use their seat more than, or before, the reins, and that is how it should be. So in my mind, when there is a "bit" problem, its really a riding problem, not the face but way at the other end!

[hast]

I just had a "DUH" moment and will change the full cheek snaffle my mare absolutely hates.
I am just too stupid :roll: I know my gelding hates them, his mouth is smaller and his tongue is thicker than the mare's... I really should have tried something different than the snaffle, but I guess I was so into the "English" mind set... :roll:

What do you think about a paso straight bar, covered by a hose? (I even have two of those...)

BTW - I believe (I'm not sure of this part because I don't use spoon bits) that the Colombian spoon bit is designed so that the horse moves their head to hold the bit so the spoon rests on the tongue, rather then against the soft pallet This brings the head in and up on a no-contact rein.

I have a columbian spoon bit for my gelding. I rarely use it, but when I do that's exactly what's going on. It's easy to see what the bit does if you take it in your hand, like the horse would carry it, and play with the rains. It's a great bit when I need immediate and subtle communication with my horse, I use it for parades and some posse events (traffic control mostly.) I usually trail ride, then I use a medium port Kimberwick. I felt it was gentler on both of us when we're out for hours, jumping logs and just playing in the forest. ;-)

[PattiB]

If you want to see how your bit affects your horse, do this.
Get someone to help you, they will be your "rider"
Put your bridle on your head like it would on your horse
Wrap your hands around the bit, that's the "mouth", curb chain (if that is what you are using) fastened under your hands
Have your helper get behind you, take the reins and turn you, stop, back upetc.
Feel with your hands what the bit is doing, how much pressure on the reins before you feel the cue. Let the rider yank or pull hard on the reins a couple of times.

[motorgypsy]

Let's be a bit more precise here. A curb is a mouthpiece. I think Coreen is referring to a shank bit that applies pressure to the poll and chin rather than to the cheeks and mouth of the horse. The ones with the independent shanks are the ones we like because they cue a lot better for turns. A Kimberwick is a nice compromise because it cues both ways depending on how you use it. And the bit whose name does not come to me immediately that has a ring at the bit and shanks for two sets of reins is also very good. Our guys hate snaffles but really like the spoon and the myler short shank with the three pieces either curb or comfort snaffle mouthpiece (this is not a snaffle bit - dont' know why they use the term).

So basically use the bit the horse likes and that tells the horse what you want it to be told. We have a bunch of spare bits by the way if anyone is near us and needs to borrow one but we strongly recommend the independent shank bits with rollars and a mouthpiece that has enough room for the tongue and that doesn't pinch. Oh - we use bit guards because it's hard to find a 4 7/8 or 4 3/4 in the bits we like.

[Primroseddp]

Patti you are right i was doing a clinic in Ill and the snaffle queston came up so i got a 2x4 put an apple on one side put the bit over the apple and gave the reins to the people who ere interested . I then asked them to close there eyes thinks of riding there horse and use the reins normal .Everyone of them cut the apple in half even though they thought they had soft hands. There next question is what is this doing to my horse.

[Minouri]

I read all the posts with great interest.

For someone like me, a backyard rider with some but not extensive dressage and western lessons......bits are often a mystery. I'll say it. I'm not ashamed. I read about bits and ask a lot of questions but the answers often surpass my level of horse knowledge.

I ride him bitless 75 percent of the time....and then I use the rubber bit I have the rest of the time. He definately gaits better in his rubber bit. I've tried various bits but he either did not gait well in them or he seemed more uptight in them...which made me think that I might be hurting his mouth in some way.

I believe I have soft/responsive hands. It's something I had to learn because Scooter has no patience for a rider who does not practice well timed pressure/release....even in his halter. If he does what I ask and he gets his quick release he responds even better to the next suggestion. Then soon I'm working mostly off my seat. If a rider gets on him and doesn't release......he digs into his bag of tricks and can be quite a little bugger. I've seen him buck like a bronco with an experienced dressage rider who couldn't seem to relax the reins.

The spoon bit was suggested to me when I first got Scooter but I was afraid that in my inexperienced hands it might be too harsh.

Could you tell me about the bit I'm using? What is the benefit and what is the negative?

Which bits would do the same as the rubber bit I have.....but without the rubber? He responds well to it....but I do have to get a new one every couple of years because out of nowhere he'll start to chew it. http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e48/RuthieBetta/rubberbar.jpg

Thank you for any advice you could give me.

I know. I know. I could continue to take lessons and then I might know the answers to my questions that way. However, life is full of choices. I chose having a second horse and having them at home over continuing my lessons. And for what I want to do....trail ride and backyard games.....I don't have any problem with the level of knowledge I have.

[PattiB]

The rubber maybe too thick for his mouth. If you have one without the rubber you can buy the latex wrap and customize one for him. Also when he chews through it the latex can be used to rewrap it so you don't have to buy another bit.

[stella]

Sorry Motorgypsy, but you are ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT in saying the curb is a mouthpiece...its EXACTLY OPPOSITE.
The mouthpiece on a curb can be broken, too....as the mouthpiece of a snaffle can be solid!
Its the SIDES, the shanks/Ds/Os etc. that are what determines a snaffle from a curb.
On a snaffle, BOTH the BRIDLE and the REINS are attached to the same portion of metal,WITHOUT SEPARATION, regardless of shape, and its usually a ring - be it O, D, eggbutt in shape, with or without "cheeks"(little pieces of metal that add weight, leverage)..so that when you pull back the rein, all the pressure is in the mouth, and the bridle LOOSENS and has no effect. There is also no curb chain or strap, nor real need for one.

A curb has an upper and lower shank, and BOTH these portions can vary in both length and shape. The upper portion, called the purchase, is what the bridle is attached to...not only will a longer purchase exert more poll pressure, but also the SHAPE of the end, where the bridle attaches is significant- a square attachment makes for a more rigid and definite movement of the bridle forward to put pressure on the poll, whereas, a big round attachment - such as on most western bits...allows for the bit to move forward with little, even NO poll pressure, if the bridle isnt moved at all- depends on how tight the bridle attaches to the bit!
YES, YOU HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS!

The lower portion of the shank also plays a part in increasing leverage- not just the longer, the more....but also, the straighter the lower shank is, and more in line to the purchase, the more leverage the bit will have(exertion on the poll, curb, and mouthpiece-ESPECIALLY if fixed shank)

If the apple trick does anything, its to demo the IMPORTANCE OF the CURB chain or strap(since, I'd think you'd need a second apple to replicate TRUE curb action, to have a place for the curb-THATS WHY ITS CALLED A CURB- that affects/limits ALL the actions of the rest of the bit!). The MOST important job is NOT to bump the chin, thats just a "bonus," but to LIMIT both the pressure to the poll, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, LIMIT the AMOUNT the mouthpiece may roll forward, such as, whether or not a spoon or port can hit the roof of the mouth! A loose curb strap/chain, or none, is NOT A nice thing, its VERY SEVERE then!

What I use in demos to show how a bit works....and the importance of the curb strap, purchase shape, etc....is a real horse's SKULL, so you can see into the mouth......if it'll hit the roof without the added thickness provided by flesh and tongue, you can be sure to respect the importance of choosing humane mouthpieces, informing yourself as much as possible on how to understand how bits work, and NOT making your horse a "guinea pig" trying 6 trillion different bits, and also LEARNING HOW to USE them, how to use your hands.

[Primroseddp]

Your right Stella , the apple showed people who thought they had soff had jsut how soft they were , and then yes we did use a second apple for the curb it was quiet good even Riley Kester couldn't believe it but it worked

[Primroseddp]

i use a mullen bit a lot it gives a lot of relief to the horses , they seem to like them and work real well with them i get some of mine from jeffers , as we all know it doesn't have to be made just for a paso.

[hast]

Minouri, I used to have the same bit as you for my horse. Actually, he came with that bit, and he hates it almost as bad as a broken mouth piece. Look in your horse's mouth, does he have a thick tongue? Does he have a low palate? My horse finally started to put his tongue over the bit and someone suggested I use a spoonbit for my horse. She put it on and to my amazement I realized that he liked it better than the bit I had used. After just a short time using the much thinner (which I perceived as more severe) spoon bit he accepted the bit so much more readily. I believe that is still his favorite bit. (It is a very well balanced bit with short s-shank) Even so, I usually ride him in a Myler medium port kimberwick since we often jump logs and other obstacles when we're out. And Stella, it didn't take me too long to figure out that my "kindness" to leave a fairly loose curb chain wasn't kind at all.

It's just so much to learn about bits, but I think if you really listen to your horse you can figure out what they like the best. Now I need to try the rubber coated twine (whatever they're called) for my mare, I have a feeling she would like that...

[Minouri]

Stella,

Thanks for the very precise description of where the bit applies pressure. I've read about bits about a hundred times, but you wrote it simple enough for me that it was all very clear.


Hast, thanks for the bit advice. I'm going to read up more on the spoon bit. I know he's not thrilled with the bit I have, but my attempts to change bits haven't been very successful. That's why generally you'll him in just his jaquima ....we use the bit only only in a while when I feel like his gait is getting bumpy. I use it like a tune up...and then he gaits fine again.

[stella]

Great advice, hast! I think when people see behavior they dont like in their horses, too often their first thought is to extinguish that behavior- THINK IT THROUGH MORE THOROUGHLY....the horse is trying to tell you something, best he/she knows how, try to figure out what the CAUSE is, not just extinguishing the symptom! Its a DIALOGUE thats going on, just non-verbal, of course! Try to figure out whats causing the problem the horse is trying to tell you about!

[motorgypsy]

Thanks for the correction Stella. I was quoting my riding instructor who obviously didn't know what she was talking about.

I was told that a curb was a solid metal bit with a raised place (port) in the center. That it did indeed come with a curb chain but in the Kimberwick with this mouthpiece you have the slot with basically no leverage and the slot with some leverage although very small. So with it you can apply some poll and chin pressure but also direct pressure to the side of the mouth for really good lateral cues.

A shank bit on the other hand was described to me as any bit that uses leverage and indirect cues from the poll and the chin rather than a snaffle which was generally a broken bit but which applied pressure directly to the sides of the horse's mouth rather than to the poll and the chin and the snaffle also had no shanks. So I was under the mistaken impression that a curb was a mouthpiece that was solid and ported and that could be used in both a shank and a snaffle and a kimberwick. This is obviously incorrect.

So it appears that a curb bit and a shank bit are synonymous. A good thing to know.

Here is a description from one webiste with pictures

Parts & Types of Basic Bits

While there are a myriad of bit designs, from the simple to the complex, from basic all-purpose bits to bits designed for specific horses, you must select your bit based on your individual horse's preferance, training level, and your riding skill and style.

The Basic Snaffle Bit

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/images_info/partsofbitsnaffle.gif

Snaffle bits are used in a wide variety of events both English and Western. They are simple, consisting of a mouthpiece and bit rings. Designs of the mouthpiece and rings vary widely. They use direct pressure on the corners of a horse's mouth. Most horses are started in snaffle bits because they are simple. Snaffle bit rings may be loose (allowing the mouthpiece to slide) or may be fixed. The simple O-ring snaffle has rings shaped like an O; A D-ring is like it sounds, with D-shaped rings. Full-cheek snaffles feature a spike above and below the ring, to prevent it from slipping through a horse's mouth; Eggbutt snaffle rings are between an O and a D shape.

The Basic Curb Bit

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/images_info/partsofcurbbit.gif
The mouth is the how wide the mouthpiece is. The cheek is the full length of the bit from the top to the bottom. The purchase is the part of the bit that is above the mouthpiece, while the shank is the part that extends below. The bars and between the port and the cheeks. The port is the rise in the middle of the bit. A small port is also called 'tongue relief' because it takes pressure off of the tongue. A high port, on the other hand, can touch the roof of the mouth and must be used with care.
The design, shape, and size of curb bits vary widely. Some mouth pieces are solid, while others are broken (snaffle, chain mouth, 3-piece, etc.). Curb bits without swiveling cheeks are often used to neckrein horses, versus direct pressure that is used with snaffle bits. Curb bits with swiveling cheeks are like a combination of snaffle and curb, and can be used to direct or neck rein. Such a bit will probably need a bit hobble to keep the cheeks together. Curb bits give more leverage, meaning that less pressure is applied to the reins to give the same cue. This type of bit is used with a chin strap and applies pressure to the poll, chin, and mouth.



Hackamores

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/images_info/partsofhackamore.gif

Hackamores are not really 'bits' as they do not use a mouthpiece, and instead work on the horse's nose, chin, and poll. Some horses prefer hackamores to bits (and some dislike them). The hackamore's nose piece may be a leather strap, leather-covered chain, or rope. There are may different types and styles of hackamores. The cheek length and style may vary. The bit hobble keeps the cheeks together, preventing them from bending too far outwards.

Also described are Pelhams which have rings for direct and indirect pressure and gag bits which slide.