Paso Fino bits and their functions.

[Heidi]

Could someone please give me a general explanation of what some of these bits do and are for?
Specifically, I would like to know about the shanks.
I understand the shorter the shank, has a milder action and less leverage while the longer the shank, the more action (movement) and leverage which increases the severity. I prefer the smaller spoons or no spoons, for less severity. Mild. I like all things 'mild'.

What I would like to know, is what role the 'chair', 'C' and 'S' shanks play and how they affect the horse.
Heidi

[Heidi]

Bump.

Doesn't anyone know? Or know of a website that explains it?
h

[appyday]

Heidi do a search here...we have discussed it before..I just try bits till I find one that works..

I think the basics are

S shank more severe then a C shank and length more severe then shorter shank..

But bottom line your "hands" dictate the severity of any bit..

[Heidi]

*slaps hand to forhead!*

I only saw about 5-6 topics in the Training Forum and stupidly thought that was "it" for topics.
Thanks, I'll do a search...
:o
h

[appyday]

*slaps hand to forhead!*

I only saw about 5-6 topics in the Training Forum and stupidly thought that was "it" for topics.
Thanks, I'll do a search...
:o
h

If you cant find it let me know...

[Heidi]

Thank you Shelley,
I did search through several pages of search result topics, but it brought up everything that "bit" was in. I looked at all the Training/Tack forum topics, but very few looked like they would discuss 'bits' specifically. The information might be there on a tanget the topic took, but I can't recognize it from the topic title and I really don't want to open every topic to see, with this slow computer. I'll be here forever.

I'm looking for a solid mouthpiece shanked bit.l I would like a traditional Paso Fino bit, but I want it to be mild. She is okay with either a plain bar or a small spoon. She does NOT like a jointed bit at all.
I just don't want to buy, not knowing what I'm buying. :o
h

[CarolU]

Heidi, I saw this this morning, but have been gone all day (State Fair!!)

Any way...don't think that small is always the most humane. If you apply the same pressure over a larger area as over a smaller area, then you apply LESS PSI with the larger bit. This is really true when you look at the diameter of the port. Larger ports are more humane then thinner ports. You are right about leverage, longer shanks and/OR longer purchase make the bit more sever.

What makes Paso Fino bits different, is that you can have light contact, with chin and poll contact (giving you a headset) without engaging the port in the mouth. I know of no other bit design that does this.

However, that doesn't mean you can't achieve a nice headset and collection without mechanical means with other gear.

I've often wished a good PF trainer would write an article on different bits and what they do and accomplish.

A bridle applies pressure in five places...the poll, the chin, the bars, the pallet, the tongue. Adding a bosal can add in the nose and higher on the chin too. I think it is a real science understanding equipment to know WHERE you need to apply pressure to get the results you want.

I'm not that critical of my horses. I'm not after a performance where the difference counts on a footfall in perfect sequence. For me, what is important is that my horse is happy and responsive. In that light, I like the recommendation of Tom Dorrance, "The best bit for your horse is the bit he's happiest in."

[motorgypsy]

ABsolutely true CArol - the larger spoons and wider ports are more mild. With the shank it's not only the shank length but also the relative length between the shank, the part below the bit, and the purchase which is the metal part above the bit that the bit hanger attaches to. If you look at a shank bit, when you pull on the reins the shank moves toward you and the purchase moves away from you in an arc which pulls the top of the bit hanger down to put pressure on the poll. At the same time the curb chain which is attached to the top of the purchase tightens on the chin and the longer the purchase, the more quickly it will tighten if I'm remembering correctly. I'm sure you guys will correct me if I'm brain dead right now. If the chain is relatively tight to begin with there will be very little actual rotation of the bit itself in the mouth so the mouthpiece doesn't do a whole lot if it's comfortable to start with and the spoon just keeps the tongue inplace under the bit and the rollars on the spoon give the horse something to play with. So the spoon is not designed to hit the roof of the mouth.

Many people mistakenly think that using a loose curb chain is more humane. It's not because if the curb chain is too loose, the bit can impact the roof of the mouth which you don't want to happen. You want the horse to respond to the cues from the poll and chin and if the shanks swivel independently you have direct force to cue for turning which is why we use bit guards - we don't want side of the bit pinching.

[Heidi]

I understand the mechanics of the bit.
What I wanted to know was the difference between the chair, C and S shanks. Do they do nothing at all, or rather...
...do they all do the exact same thing and shape has NO impact?

I thought I had read a blurb (not in depth) somewhere about how one or the other has faster action or is more severe or applies even more leverage than the other shapes AND that these different shanks cause a different reaction in a horse, like raising or lowering its' head position.

I have a C and an S here. I have compared them to each other and the overall size/design is the same. The three points are in the exact same spots (bridle attachment, bit, rein attachment) and the only difference is the shape of their shanks. I have held both in my hands and rotated them and they appear to move exactly the same. The only difference is how loose/tight the bit is attached to the shank allowing for bit rotation in my hand before actually moving when rotating the shanks.
I like this feature of these bits as it allows for a gentler request signal before the signal becomes insistant.

If it isn't the bit's shank shape at all, and is actually the hands/cues, then I'm going to shop for the nicest mouthpiece I can find (that would suit her) and shanks that I think are 'pleasing' to look at with a nice shape to them;
Low purchase, forgiving mouthpiece, curved shanks of a medium length.
h

[CarolU]

I understand the mechanics of the bit.
What I wanted to know was the difference between the chair, C and S shanks. Do they do nothing at all, or rather...
...do they all do the exact same thing and shape has NO impact?

I thought I had read a blurb (not in depth) somewhere about how one or the other has faster action or is more severe or applies even more leverage than the other shapes AND that these different shanks cause a different reaction in a horse, like raising or lowering its' head position.

I have a C and an S here. I have compared them to each other and the overall size/design is the same. The three points are in the exact same spots (bridle attachment, bit, rein attachment) and the only difference is the shape of their shanks. I have held both in my hands and rotated them and they appear to move exactly the same. The only difference is how loose/tight the bit is attached to the shank allowing for bit rotation in my hand before actually moving when rotating the shanks.
I like this feature of these bits as it allows for a gentler request signal before the signal becomes insistant.

If it isn't the bit's shank shape at all, and is actually the hands/cues, then I'm going to shop for the nicest mouthpiece I can find (that would suit her) and shanks that I think are 'pleasing' to look at with a nice shape to them;
Low purchase, forgiving mouthpiece, curved shanks of a medium length.
h

I will try to find it. I remember seeing a diagram on S-shanks vs. straight shanks, and a discussion on them. It was always thought the S or C were less severe, but (if I recall correctly) it makes no difference. It is the Lengths of the shank and/or purchase that makes the bit severe. In fact I think Candice posted the link to this article some time ago here.

[CarolU]

I found it:

http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10714&highlight=shank

[Heidi]

Thank you! That is exactly the kind of information I was looking for about the bit and shanks.
Heidi

[motorgypsy]

That was a great thread on aspects of a bit. There is another really good one Stella wrote. I'll have to try to find that one also.

I'm with CArol though on using the bit the horse likes and understands as well as one that communicates what you want the horse to do and the horse then does it happily and comfortably.

The reason I posted the information about the length of the purchase or the metal part above the mouthpiece was because despite extensive study of leverage and mechanical advantage I never even thought to look at that aspect of a bit when I bought it. I really think the reason our girls hate the Pelham bit I have despite the mouthpiece being identical to the ones they like is because the purchase is proportionally longer so the rotation of the bit and tightening of the curb chain is larger with equal movement of the shank and the angles are different also. This obviously causes them discomfort which of course they are quick to tell me about.

This is so interesting to think about.