Balance versus collection

[Lynn L.]

What is the difference between balance and collection? If the horse is balanced how much weight is on the forehand versus hindend with a rider? Is it 50/50 or what?

I think that there is a difference between the words balance and collection being used in the posts. I am just trying to make sure that I understand the difference. How do you get a horse "balanced"?

Thanks....These and other questions from an inquiring mind when I am stuck at work. :D

[Pasogirlz]

Another GREAT question Lynn. I love your line of thinking. ;-)

[CarolU]

I cannot answer for the two terms when other people use them, I can only say when I would use them and give examples and see if it helps explain the difference.

To me collection is when a horse's back is rounded, head is up, and there is animation in the gait, weather it is an animated walk, fino, corto or canter. There is greater rise and shortening of the topline - as opposed to lengthening and lowering.

To me balance is when the horse cannot maintain its current track without a correction of some type. A good example would be a horse like my Diablo that needs to take a few 'catch-up' strides with the hind quarters while maintaining an even gait on the front end. Other examples of out of balance would be a horse cross-firing or counter cantering. I have seen several Pasos who don't seem capable of balance at the canter, like they don't know what to do with their legs at that speed. They may go 2-3 strides in canter, and then break gait. Some horses have the same problem at a largo but break into a canter.

Balance and collection are different. A flat walk has no collection but is totally in balance. An extended trot or pace or largo will have no collection, but be in balance.

Another term it probably is important to clairify is cadence. The Paso gait has totally even cadence - 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4, while troche is the same 4-pattern gait, it is an uneven cadence 1-2--3-4-1-2--3-4, but can be balanced and collected throughout.

[stella]

Well, in essence and in general I agree with Carol, she has explained the basics well, except I divurge on a few points:

There isnt essentially any difference between a horse working balanced, and being collected.
I think people get confused into thinking a collected horse is only one doing only the shorter-strided gaits, when the only shortening you are really doing IS the shortening of the TOPLINE that Carol has already mentioned in her post.

A horse really cant do a truly extended trot or largo and maintain cadence or balance for consistency, unless it is working in collected manner- its lightened its forehand thru the bascule, and is driving with the hindquarters.
The horse really has to be driving with the hindquarters getting THE MOST under him, in order to get that stride increase- but the front end MUST be very light and also be able to extend the foreleg out, otherwise the back feet will "run into" the front ones- which does happen, the horse gets discoordinated, and may break gait, hitch, change rear gaits, etc. if the back stride overstrides a front, from not being properly lightened and balanced that is called "collection"..of the spine.

The forehand of the horse is HEAVIER than the hind end, and so to be BALANCED, needs to displace the excess forehand weight...so that the horse can move forward(impulsion) without being impeded by this extra weight-in a sense, "run into it"-does that make sense?.....it must redistribute its own weight, and then=there's the weight of the rider on top(also more to the front)to consider!
As far as a flat walk is concerned....true, a horse MUST be able to lower its head to walk, relative to any intermediate gait. However, anyone who'se ever started a horse under saddle knows how uncoordinated they CAN be, even in this gait, due to the addition of weight that they're not used to.......a proper a smooth, balanced flat walk will still have a rounded back, a firm stride FORWARD under itself with the rear legs, and the topline of the neck will still at least remain somewhat convex(or neutral, but NEVER hollow), maintaining all of the essential elements of collection, but in a most minimalist form, in order to relax-ALMOST "neutral," but not quite. You are able to allow some forehand weight back on, to "relieve" the burden of the hind end/back to a certain extent, because in the walk, you dont need the impulsion.
A "strung out" horse will hollow their back, and therefore neck, and that tips the pelvis and back legs out behind them, if the neck is hollowed too, the front legs are more in front, so they cannot really balance properly...in other words, not enough of the legs are under the body to give optimal support in movement( vs. the effects of gravity).This can be in a flat walk, and its VERY rough if it is strung out walk!
Hope this helps, for now!

[Lynn L.]

You guys are great! The explanations make a lot of sense.

So, would you say that in order to carry a rider with the best use of the horse's frame and muscles, there must be some collection so that the body is in balance? If that is the case, does riding like the western pleasure guys (peanut rollers) hurt the horse or his back? Even though the back is rounded when the head is low, it would seem that all the weight has to be on the forehand.

Is there a way to teach balance and coordination? My filly is about the most uncoordinated girl I have seen! Stella sounds like she has seen her when she was talking about young ones who have problems walking with a rider. :oops: I have been working alot with straightness from the ground and the short riding sessions we have. But I have to say that she makes me look coordinated! (That is pretty hard to do.)

Thanks!

[Terry Wallace]

Lynn... a book (actually three volumes) that may be very helpful to you, would be the Priciples of Conformation Analysis by Dr. Deb. Bennett.

It does matter how your horse is "conformed" in relationship of how much balance and true collection you can expect to get. Collection comes from the lumbar-sacral joint (the back...at the hip -spine connection) The books go into great detail on all aspects of conformation, but one volume really explains how to get collection.

Be aware that many Paso Finos in the show ring are not truly collected...i.e., they are not engaged in their backs, and are actually travelling "hollow"...the Fino mare Maraquita is a great example of this.
I have found that the word "collection" sometimes has a different meaning to some riders of Paso Finos.... as they think having a horse "in frame" on the front end constitutes "collection"... any dressage rider would disagree of course, as collection is building muscle in the back, so the horse can "round" its back, work off its hind end, and gives the look of "effortless" movement...when in reality it took lots of work...to get that look of "effortlessness"... I'd be happy to scan a couple pages for you...but you will miss out on other aspects of confo that contribute....

maybe your library might have the three volumes...or..you can get them on-line...mine cost about $9.95 each...so for $30.00-ish bucks...you get all three, and they are worth every penny....

[AliceG]

Another good way to teach balance and coordination - find a GOOD dressage instructor who can ignore the fact that your horse doesn't trot. The basic training exercises will greatly benefit your horse.

It can be hard to find one who is willing to take on a paso, but the really knowledgeable ones know that a horse is a horse (except of course for the famous Mr. Ed).

[stella]

Lynn, how old is your filly? Sometimes, they're at a level of maturation where the rear is higher than the wither, and that makes it difficult...sometimes you just have to wait til they "level out"...
ALSO, check to make sure the saddle fits properly, as on youngsters, often the saddle is too wide, and may be inhibiting her shoulder/forehand...and throwing you more foreward in the saddle. If its "pinching" or putting pressure somewhere, the horse will hollow its back to get away from that. Only when they get very sore over time, might they act up, often (and especially if they love you! pasos are more stoic than other breeds, too) they will just work hollow or offgait, any way necessary to avoid pain from the pressure, so do check that! (or get someone else that really knows to, if you dont feel qualified)