Horse gorges on grain

[CarolP]

Neighbors horse broke into grain room and ate about 30 lbs of grain. Found laying down and didn't want to get up, now being walked, doesn't appear to be in to much pain. Trying to ward off colic and founder, what should we be doing now????

[appyday]

I think there is a shot the vet can give..not sure what it is but prevents founder in this case....I would call a vet fore sure...good luck...keep us posted..


I think if it were me I would hit him with banamine too before the vet even got there..

[Carol Nelson]

Yup...hit with Banamine...start hosing down the feet....keep in soft, soft footing...yuck, been there...it's horrible...mine was grass founder. Get a good vet's advice and follow it! 18 months later after lots of TLC and hard work, the horse was sound again. Good luck!

[CarolU]

I think they also give epinephrine...call the vet, get walking.

[appyday]

Tie in the middle of a cold runnnig stream???

[Linda Y]

Probably need to get a levage (sp) done, too, and get all that grain out of the belly before it stagnates.

[Jasfino]

That happened to my first horse. The vet came out twice to treat her and advised us to keep her up and walking. I walked her all night long even through a terrible thunderstorm. She made it through. Prayers going up for your friends horse.

[CarolP]

OK vet is on the way. So far we gave the horse 2 pints of oil and 2 grams of Bute. We don't have any banamine. He is still up and walking, we'll see what the vet does. I had a horse founder (grass) and don't wish it on anyone. I've never seen colic but I hear it's awful.

[appyday]

I dont know if the bute is appropriate..I keep banamine on hand at all times...I can tell you where to get it..non script 100cc $37

[CarolU]

My vet told me about the epinephrine for these cases...treat like an acute allergic reaction, since that what it is systemically. It's the only colic epinephrine works on.

I hope your vet gets there soon. Oil should move it through without too much damage.

Good luck.

[SandyMM]

Banamine or the generic - always on hand here along with appropriate needles/syringes...

Glad to hear vet is on the way... this needs professional oversight...

[CarolP]

Vet came, says we did good, gave additional mineral oil through nasogastric tube, shot of ACE, banamine, and penicillin, withhold water, it's very cold tonight, 15 with 0 at windchill, horse is now stalled and under observation. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Thanks, I'll keep you updated. Carol

[Pam M]

My horse did this once. We gave him more than a gallon of oil and kept him walking for about 24 hours. He was fine. By the way...he did this when he was 7 or 8. He's 25 or 26 now so he turned out ok!

[GeorgeGuns]

Ugly truth - he's gonna founder, so its damage control right now. I wish I'd seen this earlier...

If he is shod the shoes need to come off and his heels taken down as far as possible without invading sole and the farrier might as well go ahead and get all the toe wall out of the way now. Shoes give no sole support and can speed dropping and perforation - with the sole on the ground and the wall out of the way, the horse may get by with simply blowing his walls out instead of really rotating badly. ICE ICE ICE. Stand that boy in ice, this is more important than walking. Natures way of doing damage control is to actually shut down circulation (Dr Chris Pollit). Walking will increase circulation so its not at the top of the priority list unless he is colicky, then resort to ice packs (frozen peas work great) and wrap him iced up over his fetlocks. If he does go sore, tape on 2 inch insulation styrofoam to his hooves, this is an amazing comfort measure.

Banamine somehow cuts some of the toxic reaction, or so its believed.

The antibiotic that actually prevents colic actually does little after the gorge event, best results (in lab study) are when a horse is already recieveing it. Penecillin may stop any strep that might cross the intestinal barrier, which is one thought about how founder happens, but the real culrit is enzymes that a huge sugar load causes - this does cross the intestinal barrier and it does reek havoc on hooves.

30 pounds? I'm prayin for this horse, thats a lot of grain.

[Tami Pinell]

Clinically when they found the horse laying down, the body has done the worse damage - grain overload causes the sysemtic blood supply to close and the length of time that the feet have poor to no blood supply depends on the extent of the founder. Don't wait until the horse has sore feet - get a GREAT farrier out and get some Xrays of that horses feet. Or you can do what most do, just wait and live with what will come later.

PS: Can anyone tell me why the "old timers" would walk a horse that this has happened too? Give you a hint - they would run a colic case to get the gas moving!

[motorgypsy]

supposedly mustangs don't founder and mustangs run a lot so I'm totally specualting that this is why keeping the horse moving was the rule.

What is the grain formulation? because it would seem to me that the newer formulas with the lower glycemic index would cause less problems. But then our guys don't seem to overeat on these either. They will eat perhaps three pounds (1 scoop) and leave it and go graze if there is any left. Maybe it's like hot dogs. After a certain point you can't eat another bit of one!!

[Beth Worden]

Coreen - the horse may NOT founder. If they tubed him and got the appropriate shots, etc soon enough then the horse indeed has laminitis but FOUNDER is when the coffin bone rotates and if treated soon enough so that the allergic reaction (swelling and iflamation of the lamini) has been halted before permanent damage. I know, I've been there with grass laminitis. And my neighbor with grain. Both horse have/had clean radiographs. Quick response is vital!

[appyday]

Over the years I have had horses get into grain and the pigs usually dont even get sick no less founder..though as a teen my friends POA got into the cow feed and http://forums.somd.com/images/smilies/dead.gif

[CarolU]

supposedly mustangs don't founder



I wonder where that line of BS came from. There are so many misconceptions about wild horses, they don't founder, they don't colic, they don't die from not being wormed. They most certainly DO!!! They are horses JUST LIKE any other. Most are nothing more then free roaming Quater horses. Yes, there are some pure Spanish lines that have been found in isolated pockets in the US (the Keigers, the Sulfur herd, etc.) but most wild horses are crossbreds with TB and QH stallions turned loose to improve the wild stock.

We have over 200 head of horses on our installation now. Sometimes the herd is over 500 and the BLM takes some off. The vet for the installation is a good friend and has done many necropsies on horses that die. Believe me, they die from all the crap other horses die from.

They may not founder as frequently as horses in captivity, but this is because of lower quality forage, not because the horses are any different. Horses that find themselves in an area with lush spring grass are just as likely as captive horses to founder on it.

[Beth Worden]

Yeah - what Carol said!

[Heidi]

Probably the reason the "mustangs don't founder" myth has come about is because these horses usually don't survive to SHOW they've foundered. Some predator along the way has caught and eliminated them from the gene pool because founder prevented them from escaping...
Heidi

[GeorgeGuns]

Beth, no offense, but I am quite aware of the difference between laminits and founder, I'd better be I rehab them! I'm also very aware of all the causes of laminitis and what can turn laminitis into founder, and how to prevent the sole problems with rotation. A shod horse that is suffering laminitis can have it turn very ugly very fast because there is no sole support, all the leverage is on the walls.

My own two arab mares did the grass thing last year, varied 7-10 degrees rotation. BUT not shod and already had a good mustang roll, so all they did was blow some absolutely awesome flare. Never went lame either. This was a one time event, hours on lush grass that they are just not used to. Has they been shod I'd have had some good vet bills.

Mustangs aren't the only wild horses in this country or others. KC LaPierre describes in his book about a herd he and his wife studied that were found in a very lush wooded tract that was cut off from what would have been much more appropriate stomping grounds. All the horses had hooves that looked nasty, looked "foundered" with all the usual flare, whiteline destruction, general tattiness. All were butcher fat too. If I remember right, they were moved, after trimming and some finagling with authorities, and did fine. Mustangs do indeed have every problem that domestics do, however, they are already set up to deal with it better, and if its a bad case (wild horses can retain placenta too, get infections, etc) well then their bodies serve another purpose.

The point is that we set up our domestics for failure. No this horse isn't necessarily going to all out founder, but if he was found down already, as mentioned above its not so great. If he has had intestinal weakening and is dumping MMP enzymes, he's in trouble. Why wait for it to get bad though if there are measures that will lessen the severity?

Not all old timers were able to save their horses either, and current research has a lot of better answers.

[Beth Worden]

Well Coreen, I did not mean to offend you, allthough you seem to be thin skinned anytime the "s" word is mentioned - SHOES!!!!

I just feel it is important to let these folks know that the horse may not founder - just as YOU wanted to warn them of the risk. I did not make the blanket statement the the horse WOULD NOT FOUNDER. I said MAY not. I think it is important to know all sides of the situation.

[Jasfino]

My horse that got into the grain room foundered badly. She eventually became sound again but it was a long haul. We didnt know to do any of the theraputic remedies with shoeing etc. We left her barefoot.

[GeorgeGuns]

Its got nuthin to do with my skin thickness, and everything to do with fact.
Fact: a shod horse with acute laminitis (weakened lamina, what holds the insides of the hoof TO the wall) has nothing supporting the sole but air! Without firm support on the ground, the coffin bone can rotate freely, its not like healthy lamina are going to stop it cuz there aren't enough of them. The enzymes from the toxic reaction are busy destroying lamina at an alrming rate. That is just not an opinion, its fact.
Fact: heels too high mean the coffin bone is already pointing south a little too far and add that to laminar destruction, and the risk for rotation and perforation skyrocket.
Fact: 30 pounds of grain = toxicity. (with luck, the amount is greatly overestimated... ) It sounds like the vet is doing everything he/she knows to do, and hopefully that grain will pass without impacting the horse to a great degree, but if he was found down, yes, its damage control time.
Fact (I think): an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, or 1000 pounds of horseflesh. If my thin skinned self can give some advice that saves even one horse from worsened pain and whatever outcome might have happened, then my skin just gets a whole lot thicker.

What I'm thin skinned about is being called thin skinned!

Now, lets put this behind, and how is that horse doing anyway????

[SQUEAKS]

Our vet resupplies us at every visit. We keep at least 6 needles of banimine and 6 tubes of bute on hand for emergencies. We also keep other meds that vet suggests we keep for such things. We keep at least 4 gallons of mineral oil on hand at all times.

If your vet is a good one they will tell you what to keep stocked up on.

Good Luck :D with your horse.

Bob

[Pam M]

Hmmm...interesting...the horse I mentioned in an earlier post that did this same thing and didn't founder is half mustang. However, whatever mustangs do or don't do - and I'm no expert - I do know that my half mustang colics frequently (stress colics), has chronic diarrhea, and has more "issues" than my other horses - mainly related to the amount of attention he's getting/thinks he should be getting. I'm sure a lot of this is age related (he's at least 25) but he's always been "peculiar" in his ways. I had a full mustang that was incredibly healthy but a little psychotic. Next to pasos, I think mustangs are the best breed!

[ErinC]

anyone hear how the horse is today??? :-?

[Linda Y]

Clinically when they found the horse laying down, the body has done the worse damage - grain overload causes the sysemtic blood supply to close and the length of time that the feet have poor to no blood supply depends on the extent of the founder.

Hence the reason I said the horse should have had a gastric lavage. That is quite the grain overload to expect oil to shove through. Too late now...

[SQUEAKS]

I realize there will be some that post adverse comments to this message but here is what we do to be prepared


1. All sweet feed is stored in barrels with screw on lids. There is absolutely no chance for a horse to get into them
2. All stalls are equipped with hot and cold water in case a vet has to do on the spot emergency surgery
3. All foods of any kind that is for horses is in sealed containers in the tack room.
4. All water is changed every day we have 4 ---100 gallon tanks
5. We have the barn built in an area where we can see the barn from anywhere in the front of the house so we can see our horses.
6. We try to prepare for just about any emergency but there are those that happen that can amaze you, but generally speaking you can be prepared by taking proper precautions.

Just My Opinion but there is no good reason for a horse to gorge on feed if the proper preventive measures have been taken to separate feed from horse access.

Bob :D .

[Moniece Dickerson]

I'm waiting to hear too.I sure hope he or she is not in too much pain.Moniece

[motorgypsy]

Well we boarded with a mustang and own a Cracker horse. If it weren't for the fabulous paso fino gait we'd have a herd of crackers and mustangs. They are totally amazing. Smart, resourceful, tough, funny, thinking horses - but both were adopted quite young so we have no experience with any adopted older.

Now back to founder - Arwen grain foundered herself when we were at nationals two years ago. She ran everyone away from their food and ate it all and our horse sitter didn't watch them. We always supervise feeding. She was lame only one week on each front foot and that was several months after she did this when she blew out an abscess on each foot and we had the vet Xray her and he told us she had foundered some time ago and was finally getting rid of some infection. He said they would blow out in a couple of days and they did and she was no longer lame. She blew one out at the coronary band and the other about an inch below it. We taped gauze soaked in dilute clorox solution onto the spot and it has now grown out totally. She has wonderful feet and never needs trimming because she runs so much she self trims at great angles. Some horses are just born tougher and luckier.

I hope this one is as lucky as she was. Arwen is a pig!

[Moniece Dickerson]

I ADORE Arwen!!!I can't get enough of her when you post her pictures.I just always have loved her from way back the first time that you all posted her picture.Some you see you think to your self THAT is a BEAUTIFUL horse and go on but then once in a great long while you see one and can't get enough,they just have something special that makes you fall in love with them.Arwen is one of those for me.Your friend,Moniece

Ok sorry,back to waiting on an update.

[motorgypsy]

Moniece that is very sweet and sooo funny because Arwen definitely THINKS everyone loves her. When she was born, five mares fell in love with her. She would lie up on the main pile of hay in the pasture like the little princess she was and all five mares would stand in different direction watching for danger, guarding her. She was their little treasure - the only foal and she has continued to be very sweet but very willful and self confident. She is number two boss mare out of 10 mares. Her little sister is also very pretty but none of the mares liked her but her own sister. Very interesting.

[Privatetreaty]

I'm so sorry to hear what happened. Good luck with your horse CarolP.
I found an interesting article a while back, that may be of interest:

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/illnesses_injuries/laminitis48hours_032305/index.html

[motorgypsy]

Really interesting article. So how does one take the hoof temperature? Are they talking about exernal or internal. We have one of those laser type temp takers and wonder if a daily check of the hoof with this device would be useful???

[Privatetreaty]

I'm glad you enjoyed the article, Motorgypsy/KyleS.
Here's a link with more articles for your review-

http://www.equisearch.com/searchresults/?terms=laminitis&x=9&y=8


I was taught years ago, during my jumping days, how important it is to teach a horse to stand with its foot in a bucket. If you your horse is not bucket trained and you ever NEED to soak a leg or reduce heat in the foot with a bucket full of ice, you're going to remember my writing these words.
.

[CarolP]

Haven't actually seen my neighbors, but the horse is up and eating hay. He didn't colic and if he got laminitis it isn't a severe case. His hooves weren't warm the first night but don't know now. It's verycold here, 2 degrees yesterday am and top of 18, and 10 degrees today, so noone is moving very fast. Hopefully the quick care averted a disaster. I am going to start a new thread on what we should have in our emergency kits so we can learn from this. THanks for everyone's concern :D

[motorgypsy]

Thanks! We've used oversized easyboots and ziplocs but that ia a good idea. The other thing you can do is stand the horse on a tarp after making a small depression to put the tarp on and then pouring ice onto the tarp. Of course it helps if the horse has something allowable to eat while being iced.

[Carol Nelson]

Ok, IF you have a horse that won't stand in a bucket, or stand on a tarp, or let you hose it down or anything, here is another way to soak a hoof. Take a good tight tube sock...most everyone has tube socks, huh?...and slip it over the horse's hoof (hopefully, you CAN pick up its feet) and if you need to soak it in Epsom salts or some such treatment, slip the medicine or salts down into the sock where you need the medication and then wet the sock with a hose or a cup if they don't accept the hose. You can keep it wet for some time, reapply the medicine without losing it, and keep the hoof cold if the weather is moderately cold.
Just stand back when you first put the sock on because some might try to kick the sock off, but they soon learn to accept it.

[Beth Worden]

Wonderful news! I do hope this has a good out come. They sometimes do. They sometimes don't. But rest assured you did the best you could this time.

[Privatetreaty]

You're absolutely right CarolP, it's imperative that we all have everything handy just in case. A thread was started in this forum and folks have contributed some fabulous ideas.

I have a large commercial steel cabinet full of stuff in the tack room, but I can't remember half the stuff that's in it. There's so much in there that I had to label and organized everything, otherwise I'd never find anything fast in case of an emergency.

I haven't been to the barn much lately (a trainer works the horses), but I will go this week, make detailed notes and post them.

Just in case you missed it, the thread is:

http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4983

.

[motorgypsy]

I made it a sticky on the health forum so it would stay at the beginning.

[Edurne]

I was used to seeing thoroughbreds standing with their feet in buckets and being hosed.... and when Primero had his first abscess, I tried to soak his foot. No success. Like the idea of the sock..... that would work fine for him. 8-)