History made this weekend [Archive] - American Paso Finos.com Forums

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

03-30-2009, 11:31 PM

Sorry, I was working the booth all weekend alone, so it was hard to leave. But I got a chance to watch. I thought it was a very good/competitive class. Stallions and mares competed together, and much like Paso Finos, each horse had a different but beautiful way of executing the gait. It was interesting to see the placements. The top two horses were both very nice, but very different. One was kind of Performance style while the other was almost fino style (but in a trote). The Performance style won for having slightly better consistency in the back end during the work off.

Several people came up to the booth commenting that they had never seen the Trote's before and really liked their look. Said they looked really fun to ride, which they are.

And yes, I did see that mare in the sales ad. I also thought she was very pretty. She also looked like she had a smooth gait.

SandyMM

03-31-2009, 12:27 AM

No comment....

motorgypsy

03-31-2009, 12:39 AM

You may have heard that ATTA has requested that it's members not register with PFHA (I can quote the email if you wish) so there is disagreement from both sides that this is the best way to go.

Serendipity

03-31-2009, 01:37 AM

when was there class? was it at the very end or very beginning like a totally seprate show? like the Clemson Show in SC one day PFHA the next PPR 2 totally differant shows

if we are going to combine shows w/ Other breeds why not combine w/ a breed that we might actully sell horses to. like QH many QH folks got in to Pasos why waste time with a breed we stay in clonflict about? no good P.R. for either group

just thoughts and questions, i'll hide under my rock now

Lori Perez

03-31-2009, 04:48 AM

You may have heard that ATTA has requested that it's members not register with PFHA (I can quote the email if you wish) so there is disagreement from both sides that this is the best way to go.

The ATTA has and will continue to work with PFHA. We had advised our members against sending in their registrations (People couldn't get an answer from PFHA on procedure when they called the PFHA office, so we wanted to protect the ATTA membership & their horse's registration papers! ) We wanted clarification due to the way the "policy" had been written. WE have been working with PFHA and want to continue to do so. We have just asked PFHA to please publish information to all, eliminating any confusion. I was told today that the class in Miami which was offered as an "exhibition" up until minutes prior to the exhibitors entering in the ring, that yes the class was now going to be pointed. (I am not sure if it will be retroactive as PFHA has not done any certifications to date - as far as I know we are still working on things).

(Maybe some people within PFHA and some members felt that ATTA was against them, but that was never the case - we have been attempting for years to work with PFHA)

I am sure it will all work out - my main interest is the protection and promotion of our horses!

PS - The Trote y Galope mare "Pandora" is own by our farm and yes she is a lot of fun to ride. We have gotten several inquiries about her. If you didn't get the email you can view Cheri Prill's beautiful photos at her website: http://cheriprill.smugmug.com/Paso%20Fino%20Horses/743413

And she also has an ad posted for her under "For Sale" on the home page.

Take care ALL!

Lori Perez

03-31-2009, 05:07 AM

Thank you Terry, I am glad you liked her.

twopaso

03-31-2009, 12:44 PM

I took a lesson a year or so ago on a Trote y Galope mare. I enjoyed it so much that my dream is to own a Trote y Galope one day. I thought there would never be a chance that I could afford one. Then when that email went out about the mare mentioned in the above post and the price was reasonable. I figured there will be others for sale in the future that I can afford.

Lori Perez, Pandora is a beautiful mare.

Terry Wallace

03-31-2009, 02:35 PM

Thank you Terry, I am glad you liked her.

Lori..there is not much to NOT like about that mare! Were I in the market for a trote horse...I'd want one like her.

At the risk of being "battered about" here.... I have to say I have been very impressed by the T&G horses in general.
I see very GOOD confo on most of them, I see excellent movement and cadence.
I have never seen one in person though...only seen them on video and ShowTime video and in ads....if any were closer to me...I'd sure go look at them. They remind me somewhat of a Marchador...and I like those too.

I think it is time that all Paso modalities were recognized,
I think its time to correctly identify modality of all Paso registered horses. IF working with ATTA will help make that happen....then I'm FOR it...
I'm not even going to duck and run....I can't be Paso Fino "purist" when I already know there is much trocha blood in the PF breed...I see this ATTA/PFHA working together is a good start ...I just hope it will help with proper identification of modality of the horses.

I guess my bottom line question is this.... Is it the intent of these associations to, sometime in the future....make it possible to change modality on a horse that needs the change, and to then also change the registration of that horse to more correclty identify modality?

AND...if that is so...what modality will be assigned a horse who can do all? (Like Don Danillo for example) if you have a horse who can do Paso Fino and Trocha....will there be a different designation for that horse? What will that designation be?

Serendipity

03-31-2009, 04:53 PM

yes good question, will ATTA take PFHA trocha horses and register them as they are trocha, that would sure boost there membership but will they also take the trocha horses that are not pure Columbian

if the groups are to work together there so be it Atta needs to take the PFHA horses that do not meet our breed standards but do thiers and those that don't meet either what is to become of them??????

are we going to beable to find another breed to dump these horses into?

Terry Wallace

03-31-2009, 05:32 PM

Whoa! Dump them into another breed? WHAT? WHY?

I just want to clarify I'm not thinking about it in that way at all....they are PASO horses..they will alsways BE Paso horses..they don't need to be designated to "another breed"....they just need correct modality identified so they can be bred accordingly...no need to reinvent the wheel here...

If you get some with both T&G and PF modality TOGETHER..I would hope that horse might be recognized as possibly being able to produce either type...because that type of horse would be one I'd be very cautious about breeding to. I would ADMIRE it a lot, but I'd be real careful about how I'd breed it.

Being better and above all HONESTLY informed on just what is in the bloodline (modality wise) would be real helpful to serious breeders trying to maintain a breed standard, for whatever modality they choose.

I understand its a big task...and some feelings will be hurt and some people may feel they didn't get what they paid for....but like I always say..you have to START somewhere...I'd still love to see some kind of grading board so people new to this breed could be more assured they DID get what they paid for...instead of finding out later the horse doesn't really gait..that it trochas, even though it may be smooth, but they were too new to the breed to be able to see and feel the difference, and NOBODY told them "otherwise" because its treated like a "secret"...to just get it SOLD.....

Turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to this won't help anything...JMO

Lori Perez

03-31-2009, 05:32 PM

At the risk of being "battered about" here.... I have to say I have been very impressed by the T&G horses in general.

Terry it is ashame that you are made to feel like you should be concerned about saying you like the horse when it is a part of the Paso heritage.

I guess my bottom line question is this.... Is it the intent of these associations to, sometime in the future....make it possible to change modality on a horse that needs the change, and to then also change the registration of that horse to more correclty identify modality?

As far as I know as of today, PFHA won't certify any horses that are currently registered with PFHA even if they can't perform the Paso Fino gait. (Not sure how this helps the association or breed). It is possible to certify (the horse has to prove it is able to perform the gait before ATTA will register them - we don't just do paperwork) the horse for registration with another Confepaso registry as Trocha, and then they should be able to get certification (for competition purposes only) with PFHA. As it is today there are many Paso Fino horses registered today with PFHA that have NEVER been able to perform the 4 beat lateral gait, and unfortuneately there are so many that are winning in the ring and being bred to a lot of mares.

AND...if that is so...what modality will be assigned a horse who can do all? (Like Don Danillo for example) if you have a horse who can do Paso Fino and Trocha....will there be a different designation for that horse? What will that designation be?

How it works with associations recoginzed with Confepaso (other than PFHA): A horse has up to 60 months to define the gait of final registry. Let's say for example a horse is born with Trote y Galope bloodlines and the owner registers the horse at 1 year of age, but they realize that at the age of 3 it is more comfortable and able to maintain the Trocha y Galope gait. They can request that the registration be changed in the records. After the age of 60 months, the records can't be changed and the horse must compete in the show ring according to the modality records on its papers. As far as Don Danilo is concerned, the same would apply to him. He was able to perform all gaits at exhibitions, but for competition he was able to compete in one division only.

I hope this helps.

Lori Perez

03-31-2009, 05:41 PM

I totally agree. By the way, the registration papers issued through Fedequinas do show the modality for each horse! So you know what gait is really is the bloodlines; if it is a mix of Trote & Trocha or Pure Trocha or Pure Paso Fino......Of course it is going to give the breeder better insight on how to select their stock! They are graded as:

P1 Trote y Galope
P2 Trocha y Galope
P3 Trocha (Pura)
P4 Paso Fino

Further grading is done for DNA to confirm is there is DNA on file for both parents, only the sire, only the dam.

I wish the registration proces was universal for all members (registries) of Confepaso.

Terry Wallace

03-31-2009, 05:42 PM

Thanks for your explanantion and yes it helps a lot....so what is to FEAR here people?

Lori...I personally won't ever feel ashamed for liking a different modality horse...a good horse IS a good horse!

I'm one of those who does NOT think the sun rises & sets only on the Paso Fino breed... there are good horses of all breeds....I grew up on Quarter Horses, I worked for an Arab and an Andalusian farm back in the day..I still love them...just don't care to ride them any more. I'd just as soon NOT bounce...

Thanks for coming here and explaining....

I have to say..I have a real problem with this:
As far as I know as of today, PFHA won't certify any horses that are currently registered with PFHA even if they can't perform the Paso Fino gait. (Not sure how this helps the association or breed).

Because it doesn't HELP anything and continues to perpetuate the "secret".....or hide the truth...and I wonder if it will ever be changed....

SandyMM

03-31-2009, 05:50 PM

the class in Miami which was offered as an "exhibition" up until minutes prior to the exhibitors entering in the ring, that yes the class was now going to be pointed.Pointed by whom?

My other concern is that I have heard repeatedly that ATTA will only accept Colombian-bred Pasos for registry... Is this true or not? Would a PR-bred horse who could perform the appropriate gait(s) be registered?

Terry Wallace

03-31-2009, 06:16 PM

Since Sandy has brought up this very good question:My other concern is that I have heard repeatedly that ATTA will only accept Colombian-bred Pasos for registry... Is this true or not? Would a PR-bred horse who could perform the appropriate gait(s) be registered?

Can I add...what about mixed Col/PPR blooded horses..where do they stand in all this? There are Many mixed heritage horses so I assume they would be accepted...but assumtions...well....we all know what assuming can mean????

motorgypsy

03-31-2009, 07:03 PM

Being redundant here I have NOT seen anyone who has any criticism of the diagonals. They are spectacular to say the least and we love them. If we had lots of money and a huge farm we would have a couple just for fun.

The problem lies with the public perception of what a paso fino is, not with the diagonals. I've said many times that I have no problem with a combined ATTA, PFHA show with ATTA awarding the points. I have no problem with the two associations even combining forces in advertising and other areas BUT to register the diagonals under the PFHA trademark name is adding a modality that is totally different from what is advertised and what is expected from the PFHA paso fino.

There are really very few diagonals and to muddy an existing trademark by including the diagonals is not good for either group any more than registering paso finos under the ATTA logo. Now IF the two groups wish to merge under a NEW name such as PFTTHA paso fino trot trocha horse association keeping PFHA and ATTA as separate registries under one overall name at least the general public would understand that these groups do not mix breeding although thee is common ancestry. They have diverged so they not only move quite differently, they LOOK different.

This does NOT make either group superior. It just makes them unique - which they are. The diagonals are NOT paso finos. PFHA IS the Paso FINO Horse Association. We may as well register Andalusians in PFHA because we have common ancestry, they are spectacular and diagonal also. So if PFHA wants to expand to include the diagonals then at least do it right and rename the association and keep the PFHA part separate and add ATTA under a single umbrella.

Siggy

03-31-2009, 07:30 PM

Paso Fino is not a trademark name. That is why the original association put "American" in front of the two Spanish words.

It was a breed long before PFHA used them. This is still the argument in countries of origin, is it not? What was the original breed and what was the ORIGINAL genetic make up of the breed.

It is only here with PFHA that the description is so rigid and does not include the other abilities. Trote, Trocha, Andadura etc etc please do not further confuse people by insinuating that the PFHA has a trademark or the entire description of the "breed" when in fact they are mostly responsible for the ignorance about the breed because in fact they did not know to include the other aspects of the breed

DSDECKERT

03-31-2009, 08:13 PM

Whoa - she's awesome - HUBBA HUBBA! If I had a spare stall (and $7,500!) she'd definitely be welcome at my place. Look at Cheri's face in those pictures - she's having a blast on her!

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

03-31-2009, 08:52 PM

Thanks for the clarification Lori.
They made it sound like a done deal at the show in ref. to the points. :rolleyes:

The classes were in the middle of the day on Saturday.

Hacienda Radiante

03-31-2009, 09:04 PM

It is only here with PFHA that the description is so rigid and does not include the other abilities. Trote, Trocha, Andadura etc etc please do not further confuse people by insinuating that the PFHA has a trademark or the entire description of the "breed" when in fact they are mostly responsible for the ignorance about the breed because in fact they did not know to include the other aspects of the breed

True. However we now have 50 years of marketing gait, gait, gait to have achieved what little awareness this breed has in the American public's mind.

I'm entirely neutral about the inclusion of the TG horses, however I'd like to hear how we, as Paso owners, plan to describe the attibutes of this breed to outsiders. We already have breed-specific gaits (fino, corto, largo) to discuss, as well as lineage (CCC, PPR). Now we are adding modality into the discussion. All of this on a registry base that still numbers in the 10's of thousands. Howzabout we simply rename the breed the 'OmniGait' or the 'Spanish Welsh Pony' and simply remove all reference to the gaiting? *inserts tongue in cheek*

Here's the Wiki link, if anyone wants to take a crack at an updated description. Note the reference to anything other than four-beat gaiting being a flaw for the breed standard.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paso_Fino

Siggy

03-31-2009, 09:08 PM

We have 50 years of willfully not disclosing information pertaining to the modalities that the association did not write about but were in the gene pool. How have breeders been describing those gaits so far?? ducking now!

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

03-31-2009, 09:19 PM

True. However we now have 50 years of marketing gait, gait, gait to have achieved what little awareness this breed has in the American public's mind.

I'm entirely neutral about the inclusion of the TG horses, however I'd like to hear how we, as Paso owners, plan to describe the attibutes of this breed to outsiders. We already have breed-specific gaits (fino, corto, largo) to discuss, as well as lineage (CCC, PPR). Now we are adding modality into the discussion. All of this on a registry base that still numbers in the 10's of thousands. Howzabout we simply rename the breed the 'OmniGait' or the 'Spanish Welsh Pony' and simply remove all reference to the gaiting? *inserts tongue in cheek*

Here's the Wiki link, if anyone wants to take a crack at an updated description. Note the reference to anything other than four-beat gaiting being a flaw for the breed standard.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paso_Fino

Just speaking from personal experience and being new to the breed, I understood soooo much better AFTER I learned/become educated about trocha and trote. I find it hard to describe the Paso Fino without including the other modalities for comparison. I realize it's confusing and it takes some time to learn, but so did everything about the Paso Fino when I entered the breed.

Hacienda Radiante

03-31-2009, 09:44 PM

Siggy

03-31-2009, 09:53 PM

but how did they describe gait? And which ones are the bad ones now? is it the trot Y Gallope (translated to trot & gallop which is basically not a 4 beat gait by description) trocha a 4 beat gait and paso fino an even 4 beat gait also andadura an uneven 4 beat gait.

These gaits are all used in countries of origin in different venues, shows etc. Why are some bad and some not?
So when someone comes to buy a horse has anyone ever been told this one is gaited badly by the seller? :biggrin:

Terry Wallace

03-31-2009, 10:02 PM

has anyone ever been told
Quote:
this one is gaited badly

by the seller?

(Raises hand)....I have, I have!! it happened to me once...it was at Flying M disperal auction. I asked Alberto Sierra about a palomino standing in a pen that caught my eye, and he told me..."You won't like" .."He is trocha".

Its VERY RARE though...

Its usually me telling the seller..."the horse shows no gait", it is trocha, or it is pacing..or it is trotting...whatever the case may be. In fairness..it is usually people NEW TO THIS BREED that don't know the horse they are selling..is NOT gaiting....

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

03-31-2009, 10:03 PM

I know, Lori, and I agree it's important to understand these things as you get deeper into the breed. But that's rather 'wine-snobbish' of us to require it of newbies, don't you think? What about the people who just want something nice to go with their chicken marsala (yes, I AM thinking about tonights dinner menu LOL) and don't want to have to do a deep dive on the topics of vintage, nose, bouquet etc. to make a decision? Maybe I'm worrying about it too much, who the heck reads owners manuals nowadays anyway, but I somehow feel that we're going to frighten people away with all the specialized knowledge needed!

Sig, the way I heard it described when I first came to the breed was that there were 'good' Pasos that gaited naturally and there were 'bad' Pasos that didn't. But 'gaiting' was how the Paso set itself apart from other breeds.

(got room in the foxhole??)

I also agree, the need to know sooo much in this breed is a turn off to some. For others like myself, it just made me want to know and experience more. I think being "aware" and "knowledgeable" of the other modalties gives one a fuller picture. And lets face it, this breed is not for the passionless. lol

I just don't think it's enough to say there are "good" Pasos and "bad" ones. I think that is all in the eye of the beholder.
For example, I have recently been in the market to buy a new Paso.
There was one that will be a monster performance horse but she was cheaply priced due to the fact that she was still in trocha. After some discussion, the owners decided to keep the mare because when she does come into gait, she will be worth good money as a Professional level Performance show horse. She had an awesome hind end on her and moves like a train. But for me personally, I would not want her even at the reduced price b/c you don't know how long, or how much money you will spend bringing her into gait. But that is just me. They obviously felt the investment of time/money was going to over shadow that in the long run. But had I not known anything about trocha or been able to identify it, I might have been sorely disappointed the first time I took the horse in the ring. If I believed that every Paso Fino was naturally gaited like it states all over the internet....I would not have known any better.

Ignorance isn't always bliss....or is it?:p

SandyMM

03-31-2009, 10:09 PM

I would like to know if there are any non-pure Colombian bloodlines registered in ATTA.

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

03-31-2009, 10:11 PM

I would like to know if there are any non-pure Colombian bloodlines registered in ATTA.

I thought you had no comment? :p I feel one coming on. ;)
ya know I luv ya Sandy.

Siggy

03-31-2009, 10:33 PM

He said it was trocha, not that it was badly gaited though:v:

It is interesting to see the different ideas of what "not gaited" is.

I personally think of the 3 gait horses (walk, trot, canter) as equines that are not gaited and to me that includes the trot Y galope horses.

I do think that trocha and andadura as being gaited because of the legs moving independantly rather than diagonals moving together.

I consider a hard pace, which is an absolute two beat, to be a bad gait.

Cindy

03-31-2009, 11:07 PM

Not for a pacer.

Siggy

03-31-2009, 11:24 PM

Since we are discussing the gaits of Paso Finos and not Standardbreds it seemed silly to add more confusion. Unless of course one of the Paso Fino associations are now accepting Standardbreds.

pnalley

03-31-2009, 11:48 PM

What about Sandy's question?

Are horses of pure Colombian lineage the only ones registrable by ATTA?

Inquiring minds want to know

Lori Perez

04-01-2009, 04:27 AM

Pointed by whom?

My other concern is that I have heard repeatedly that ATTA will only accept Colombian-bred Pasos for registry... Is this true or not? Would a PR-bred horse who could perform the appropriate gait(s) be registered?

1 - Pointed by PFHA
2 - No where is it written that PR blood is excluded. Just must meet all other requirements.

Lori Perez

04-01-2009, 04:43 AM

True. However we now have 50 years of marketing gait, gait, gait to have achieved what little awareness this breed has in the American public's mind.

I truly appreciate what you are saying, but it has really only been just over 30+ years since the PF associations held shows and were really organized. In South America they have been breeding Pasos for MUCH LONGER! The Paso Fino is not an American bred horse. I don't understand why people want to re-invent the wheel here in the USA with everything including horses:)

There is nothing wrong with not be as knowledgeable about a particluar modality within the breed, but it has been ingored by many. I truly believe if you are a Paso enthusiast, you love all Paso horses and welcome the heritage of the breed. There have been breeders who have been at this for over 100 years -refining our horses, it would be ashame that the USA continues to be the ONLY Country that does not recognize all of the Paso horses. PS - PFHA IS NOT REGISTERING THE DIAGONALS - SO LET'S NOT PANIC.

Let's not feel like there is not enough of a market out there to support all Pasos, there is and Americans just love them!

Serendipity

04-01-2009, 05:18 AM

No where is it written that PR blood is excluded. Just must meet all other requirements.
__________________

which are?

I also do not have a huge problem w/ them at the shows but i need to be 2 separate shows, either show before PFHA or after not during its your show again as in clemson one day pfha the next ppr.

and it is confusing to the public when you still have people pronouncing the name as paser ferners. it is hard to go indepth with them about breed/origin/mode of travel they get this glazed look and have not heard a work for many minutes

people want to know what they are getting but name, I have a huge trotty horse here a Holsteiner she is trained western pleasure but it is assumed by what she is that she is dressage or a jumper.

when people here Paso Fino they want GAIT as in smooth now some of the trocha horses can pull off smooth but not all.I've never had someone ride one of mine and comment wow that ride was rough as heck or wow i'd rather bounce, no when you ride a Paso you expect smooth gait---

many of us did not get into this breed because because of the brio, or colors, or size, or look there are 100's of breeds and i would be willing to bet most of us got into Paso Finos of the gait first---i would probley not own one today if i had known all the trouble it was about gait and finding well gaited horses,i bought into the breed because of smooth natual gait

now to Lori P it is great that you guys are starting to show and promote your horses in this area but, it is reasonable for many to not like it or be thrilled when it is a conflicting market gait vs trot and to complain that pfha is rigid in its standards has said by Siggy perhaps atta needs to loosen up a but and allow more horses in then it may even out the numbers because there are so few of these horses and if they share the same blood it seems more practical to increase the #'s so you increase reconision

also anyone buying a horse if the sell says "has not came into gait" Run far far away, that would be one of those huge red flags unless the horse is litterally just being started under saddle.

no really i want Lori to know that i have nothing against a trotting horse(have one) but do not feel they belong at a pfha show no more than a TWH or a QH or Andlusians,and ATTA should point there own horses

Hacienda Radiante

04-01-2009, 05:08 PM

Unless of course one of the Paso Fino associations are now accepting Standardbreds.

ACK! ACK!

:)

Hacienda Radiante

04-01-2009, 05:42 PM

I truly appreciate what you are saying, but it has really only been just over 30+ years since the PF associations held shows and were really organized.

So am I mis-remembering reading that the mid-60's were the time that the first paso exhibitions (NOT shows) were put on? Well before my time with the breed, but I think from what I've read they promoted the horses as gaited. *grin*

I'm not panicking in the slightest about this -- I don't have any immediate interest in breeding trote or trocha horses, so I'm not worried about registration or showing. I can simply admire them in other, more knowledgable hands. What I *AM* wondering is how I describe paso horses who do not 4-beat gait to new people. What do I tell them to look for in a quality Paso Fino -- the brio? The quickness of footfall, regardless of modality? I ask this because when you look at other breeds they have different classes for different competencies within the breed (e.g. the Park Arabian isn't going to move the same as the WP Arabian) so clearly there IS a way to reconcile different modalities within a breed, *however* the Arabian Association breed standard matches that spectrum of movement found within that breed. I don't think we have clarity at the moment.

SandyMM

04-01-2009, 06:06 PM

What no one is saying is that the registration and acceptance of diagonal modalities is a Colombian thing as opposed to a PPR thing. It's a culturally-based preference that can be respected for both types.

However, since the Americans originally based their breed description on the PPR-influenced description of gait - with no description, show classes, or intention of promoting diagonally gaited horses - why is it a surprise that the focus of APF/PFOBA/PFHA has always been on the Paso Fino gait as originally intended and promoted?

The big draw of Paso Finos in this country has always been based on a smooth/non-trotting breed with its unique characteristics.

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-01-2009, 06:23 PM

What I *AM* wondering is how I describe paso horses who do not 4-beat gait to new people.

...how do we describe them now? (serious question for everyone)

Hacienda Radiante

04-01-2009, 10:12 PM

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-01-2009, 10:26 PM

Honestly? As not meeting breed standard. I bought one registered-by-gosh Paso who doesn't gait consistantly -- let me rephrase that, he really ONLY trots -- he's my kids horse and people adore him because of his looks and attitude, but I will tell people he is not a good representation of the breed because he doesn't gait (and he's shrimpy, but that's another story).

Now, to Lori's point, people (including me) like him anyway (he looks like a naughty Welsh pony), and he's a great kids horse even if he isn't 'breed standard'. But I seriously doubt that I would get anyone to believe that because he didn't 4-beat, he would make a great trote or trocha horse. He's just a crappy example of a PF. So I would hate to have people point to him and say, 'Oh, so is THAT a T/G paso?' I'm pretty sure the T/G people would be horrified too. LOL!

I'm not sure, but I think your horse at my farm. lol I have one just like that. Beautiful, lovely tempement, sweet as all get out, but trotty as can be. Great for the kids and non-riders but not for me. And I think you are right, the Trote ppl WOULD be horrified. lol Although I did roach his mane, but only b/c he keeps sticking his head thru the fence and ruining it.

So let me ask you (all) this...why do you think our horses don't gait consistently or prefer to trot?
if not for some diagonal in the pedigree somewhere...

Sure conditioning has some to do with it, as well as consistent riding. But...I was expecting him to be doing a little better than this by now.

Siggy

04-01-2009, 10:48 PM

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-01-2009, 10:55 PM

SandyMM

04-01-2009, 11:37 PM

Some otherwise imperfectly gaited Pasos still make nice riding mounts... many a 'rough' Paso is still smoother than a hard trot! (Unless they're 'tight and quick' rough-gaited! :rolleyes:)

Cindy

04-02-2009, 01:36 AM

How should these type of animals be marketed or advertised if and when someone needs to sell them?

Geldings, pretty easy - non-gaited Paso Fino for sale
Mare??
Colt??
What obligation does the owner have to make sure they are not perpetuated or to make sure that they do not fall in to the hands of newcomers who expect gait from a registered paso fino?

They are culls and should be sold as such. Non-registered culls. A Paso Fino that does not perform the Paso Fino gait is no more a Trote Galope horse than is a Trote Galope horse an Andalusian. If a horse was bred to a breed standard, any breed standard, and it does not meet that breed standard, it is a cull. Not some other faction of a similarly bred breed. The problem that arises if this concept is defered from comes when said horse is asked to reproduce. A horse that was bred to have the Paso Fino gait who cannot perform the Paso Fino gait but can instead perform a perfect trocha gait can never be expected to produce true to either Paso Fino or Paso Trocha. And the same said the other way around. So, while the Paso breeds do indeed have simlilar history and lineage, at some point in any breed the books must be closed. This point has come and gone for the Paso breeds and they have distiguished themselves as truely seperate breeds and MOSTLY breed true to their particular inclination. To continue to keep the books open will only perpetuate the cloudy, murky nowhere land that some people seem to find themselves in at this time. It is my understanding that to consientious breeders of all different Paso modalities, the books are in effect closed. In other words, a true breeder of the diagonal modalities will not breed to the lateral modalities and vice versa. And this is how it should be at this time in the history of the breed because each modality needs to strengthen the gait of their particular breed at this time. And, as in any other breed, if they don't meet breed standard, they should not be bred. Jsut like the example of the Standardbred that paces. He was bred to pace. A Paso Fino who paces is NOT a Standardbred just because of the gait it performs. It is a Paso Fino who does not meet breed standard.

motorgypsy

04-02-2009, 02:31 AM

Totally agree Cindy and this is my understanding also - that we are dealing with closed registries at least as far as the diagonal breeders are concerned. Horses who don't perform the gait required by the registry are indeed culls as far as breeding is concerned even though they may be very sweet and great pets and rides.

I can't speak for paso fino breeders who may want the size, conformation and speed of the trocha horses in their paso finos but we all know that doing this results in a much great probability of a very diagonal offspring that may be registerable but certainly won't be wanted for breeding by paso fino or diagonal breeders.

At least change the name of the association to reflect the combination of different modalites because PFHA is just what it says - THE PASO FINO Horse association, NOT the PASO FINO, TROCHA and TROTE y gallope association.

And the question has not been answered as to whether mixed PPR and Colombian paso finos with correct giat will still be allowed to be registered at all if there is a merger since I understand only Colombian bred can be registered with ATTA?

Blair

04-02-2009, 02:34 AM

I am certainly not as experienced as others in this breed but do want to bring up a point. Gaited to non-gaiting is more of a continuum or spectrum in many cases rather than all or none. I think training, conditioning and rider make a huge impact. If a horse has a weakness in any (or in my case probably all of the areas) then gait may not be exhibited but still be a capability hidden. I have a wonderful 7/8 PPR mare that I purchased barely under saddle. With no paso trainers to assist we may did our best but she is just all out lazy. I got to the point where I would swear that I was sold a QH with PF papers until I finally got into some work with a PF trainer. It took a lot of work and him training me to sit her differently and many other adjustments but darn it all if she can't gait when she wants and it is nice. She just seems to know that the collection for gait is a lot of work and she would rather conserve her energy!! Does that make her a cull, a trotter or just a lazy horse??? Her 2 yr old filly (by a PPR stallion) hit the ground in tight gait and still gaits consistently in the pasture.

This is just an example of where things may just not be as black and white as they seem (funny....she is grey!!!) and it make it very hard to define all of this as a breed standard since it is a dynamic function of the breed rather than something objective/measurable such as height, color, etc. I, too, was sold on the whole concept of "naturally gaited" and have learned that just because nature gives the horse the ability doesn't mean they will demonstrate it - especially with a novice PF rider and a different approach to training. I will give my girl this though - she is a darn good competitive trail/judged pleasure horse and still smooth! I do also have to educate buyers that in many cases, experience riding other breeds does not always translate to some of our pasos (again maybe a function of the type and level of training). Many of these horses are just not easy to ride or get to do what the marketing material says they can do and we end up with disillusioned buyers.

Cindy

04-02-2009, 02:53 AM

If I were to breed a race horse of impecable blood, train it and ride it in races myself, it most likely would not perform to it's capability as a race horse. If that same horse was in the hands of professionals in that industry and he raced successfully, he was a race horse. Regardless of whether I was a jockey or not. It is black and white. If your horse can perform up to breed standard when trained/ridden in the proper manner, it is not a cull. If we are refering to the breeding of horses, one must assume in discussion that those who are breeding said horses are qualified in the other areas of horsemanship particular to the breed to handle the horse properly. If they are not, they should not be breeding horses. I understand that this is not always the case, but that particular issue is not relevent in this discussion.

Siggy

04-02-2009, 03:05 AM

That is just BS - sorry
A race horse will still run - it may just run better with a good trainer and jockey (because they have specifically focused on that ability)
Many breeders of race horses make tremendous breeding decisions and they are not trainers or jockeys - they are also skilled enough to hire those same professionals.

A poorly or non-gaited Paso Fino will not just "run better" in the hands of a trainer, when it looses the actual gait it is no longer by breed standards and definition Paso Fino, it has the heritage and the names in a pedigree but that is where it ends.

Since we know that recessive genetics can be transmitted undetected for generations, it is still very possible to have the trocha and trote genes coming through even though the serious breeders have taken the path of breeding within each modality only.

Comparing a gaited horse who does not gait to a race horse who just runs slow in not a fair comparison.

Saying that everyone who breeds Paso Finos should be able to attain the same level from a horse as a professional trainer is also not a good comparison. But that is just my 2 cents

Cindy

04-02-2009, 03:18 AM

Siggy

04-02-2009, 03:25 AM

Thank you - I thought it was on par with your comment about breeders.

If we are refering to the breeding of horses, one must assume in discussion that those who are breeding said horses are qualified in the other areas of horsemanship particular to the breed to handle the horse properly. If they are not, they should not be breeding horses

Cindy

04-02-2009, 03:45 AM

That was far from a negative comment about breeders. It was in fact quite the opposite. I am the one assuming that those who breed horses are qualified to do so. You are the one who seems to think that they can't even ride their own horses. Look, Siggy, I don't know why you have this particular bone in your throat towards me but it is quite tiresome. If you don't want to have a discussion, don't. I don't have time for this childish crap.

Siggy

04-02-2009, 04:09 AM

I dont care about you one way or the other, dont know you.
I believe a number of us were having a discussion on this thread, but apparently we are not allowed to express our own opinions now.

I did not say any where, any time that any owner was not capable of riding their horse. I simply stated that race horses and Paso Finos are not comparable.

SandyMM

04-02-2009, 04:34 AM

:anpony::anpony::anpony::anpony::anpony::anpony:;)

Lori Perez

04-02-2009, 04:54 AM

And the question has not been answered as to whether mixed PPR and Colombian paso finos with correct giat will still be allowed to be registered at all if there is a merger since I understand only Colombian bred can be registered with ATTA?

I answered this question already...see prior page - 4. No where does it state in our rules that the horse has be to pure Colombian bloodlines. However, it must meet all other requirements which fall under Confepaso rules. Why are you so concerned with this questions anyway? Do you have a PPR horse that has diagonal bloodlines that can perform a true smooth Trote y Galope or pure Trocha that you want to register? I am confused. :)

I agree so much with what Cindy said about the breed standard (which would apply with any breed of horse, dog, cat, etc.), it is up to the breeder to advise clients or prospects about the qualities you want in a Paso Fino. Any horse that is unable to gait, should be gelded, not bred and the papers pulled if it is sold by the breeder and the seller should explain that the horse doesn't fit in with your breeding program. Blair I understand your point also, yes there are horses out there that have the underlying qualities which may never be realized if they are not brought out. Oh and yes, there are some lazy ones too!! HA. I had one like that, but he ended up being purchased by a guy that wanted a big Paso Fino that could be ridden with one hand and a beer in the other, the man joked just like an ole quarter horse:), but smooth.

Not all the horses that are born are going to be stars or even be considered a "quality" animal, but they all have a place in life to fill. Like Lori F. and other person mentioned about a gelding that was great for the kids to have fun with.

I am not going to go into the debate again about the name of the association, the origins of the breed, what a true well bred highly valuable Trocha horse is vs a well trained Paso Fino that still falls on the diagonal no matter what and the folks here think he is in gait just because he is so fast and the judges place him/her first.

I just think it is time for us to be open to new ideas, keep up with the International market - Gods knows we are doing something wrong if after so many years people don't know how to explain their OWN BREED OF HORSE.

motorgypsy

04-02-2009, 05:00 AM

I'll give you an example using strictly paso finos.

We were considering buying a PPR mare. When we rode her she paced - hard paced. She did not gait. We asked our boarding barn resident paso fino trainer to ride her. She gaited in about five seconds. The PPR mare was not a cull. We did not know how to cue her to gait.

BUT this same trainer worked for a couple years with a very nice paso fino colt, son of a very famous stallion and the colt himself was extremely expensive. After two years and by age five this colt still did not gait correctly. I would have given him one more year and after that if he was still as trotty as he had been, I would categorize him as a cull. A very good trainer who could get a half arabian to gait with ease was not able to get this colt to gait correctly. He should not be used to breed unless he has some other amazing characteristic.

Assuming the trainer knows how to train any particular breed to perform it's particular task, the task it was bred to perform, IF the horse is not able to perform that task, it is a cull. I agree with this regardless of breed. If the breed has a standard of any kind and does not meet the standard or cannot perform the standard task required after one or more knowledgeable for that breed trainers has trained it, it is a cull for that breed. Now if this failure is due to injury then it may still have use as a breeder but otherwise it should be eliminated from the gene pool and sold as what it is whether it be a pet horse, hack, or pasture ornament.

You don't call a paso fino who can't perform the correct gait, a trocha horse because it can trocha, and expect people who have bred trocha horses for generations to breed to it. NOT gonna happen. Just because my paso fino can do a running walk does not mean that the TW's are gonig to register her either. Luckily she does the paso fino gaits perfectly but you get the point.

Now there are registries that are strictly based on performance. If we wish our registry to be based on performance that's fine but that means we have to register any horse that can do the required gait and I have one who is not purebred who can do the gait as well or better than many registered paso finos so you'd better believe registration papers for her will be sent in the day we open our registry to performance only. She never misses a beat - gaits like a sewing machine.

So we have to consider two totally different things. FIrst of all do we wish to include in our registry, horses of similar ancestry who now do totally opposite gait and have quite different conformation?

Second of all do will we allow the interbreeding of these different modalities registering them on the basis of performance as well as parent verification?

And finally will this be beneficial to the existing breed?

For those of you who haven't kept up with this, this is where we are now although there are other options.

For example had we rather form a close association with the association who currently registers the diagonals, support them, but maintain separate registries and not allow interbreeding.

Or last of all should we just keep them separated as they have been?

In response to the person discussing the fact that paso finos can indeed do quite a number of different gaits and a person who has little knowledge of them can inadvertently cue for a gait other than THE gait and actually teach the paso fino to trot or pace under saddle rather than gait. This is of course very true but not really relevant to the discussion because we are talking about the combining of two very different types of horses. If you haven't seen trochadors and trote galope horses they do not look like paso finos. They are gorgeous, spectacular HUNKS and they trot or "soft trot". They do not do an even four beat gait.

Yes there are some like Don Danilo who can do them all including trot, soft trot, pace, broken pace and so on. But there are some PFHA registered paso finos who can't do the even four beat gait even with a knowledgeable rider. These are CULLS in PFHA and if we start breeding to the diagonals to get bigger, flashier horses, we're very likely to lose the even four beat gait in the process. Is this what we really want?

So just think about all the implications of what we are considering before making rules that will cause a lot of future problems.

And one more time I LOVE the diagonals. This has NOTHING to do with not liking them. It's about combining very different types of horses into one registry under the name which refers to one of them only and allowing interbreeding of these different types.

Serendipity

04-02-2009, 05:16 PM

BUT this same trainer worked for a couple years with a very nice paso fino colt, son of a very famous stallion and the colt himself was extremely expensive. After two years and by age five this colt still did not gait correctly. I would have given him one more year and after that if he was still as trotty as he had been, I would categorize him as a cull. A very good trainer who could get a half arabian to gait with ease was not able to get this colt to gait correctly. He should not be used to breed unless he has some other amazing characteristic.

okay lets back up to here for a moment, useing the senario of the young colt the horse has been in training for 2+ yrs and you'd give him another yr to "come in to gait". i mean really times like now who can afford this???????? we'll say training is $500 a month(cheap for most training) at the trainer 24 months that $12,000 in training !!!!! plus the price of the horse plus all the other stuff, then to say the horse is a cull and should not be papered(which i agree) but looking at the poor sap who has invested all this time and $$$$$$$$$$ to find out the horses is worth in the hundres, this is someone that is going to breed this horse right,wrong or indifferant because he's going to try to get some of that money back, do you blame him really??????

that is why i say if you hear the term has not "came into gait" and your talking anythign but a just started horse RUN

training is an investment and one that should be made if by owner or someone else, but be realistic if the horses has been w/ a trainer 3-5 months gaiting should no longer be an issue it may still be inconsistan because ever horses learns at a differant rate, but as the owner of the horses you need to decided how long before you are going to reasonably give them to gait feeding on that they are bred to be Natural, i expect gait the moment the horses is in balance, a month at the trainer and no sign of gait that horse would be gone w/o papers.(for me)

this term coming into gait i believe has fueled alot of trouble, because by the time the trainer says horses is no good you have thousands invested, this is one of those cases that as the owner you need to be aware of what your breeding into ask question of the stallion owner when did the horses start gaiting and will he maintain gait ridden by someone other than a pro.

my beliefs if the horses is natually gaited than some one who has ridden should have the horse gaiting when ridden, like an example i when to a farm rode a fino stallion, me a pleasure rider, the horse gaited fine now i do not think for a moment that this horse would have won Nat'l with me aboard though he had won Nat's before but he gaited w/ a normal rider. i also vistited a mare another time that had had 3yrs training she lived at the trainer the trainer rode her she gaited for the trainer, i got on and she would not gait for me true i may not have been queing her right, but i have ridden enough horses to get gait this is a horse i would consider not a good breeding animal she is not natural in my opinion,

when i let new people ride my horses i expect them to gait(most have not been to a trainer), i'm sure at a Troch Pura farm same is true you want the horses in move as it should no matter who rides it

i've heard the term breeders need to be ruthless in breeding and that is true make gait the priority(what ever mode they go in) and cut the loses on the one that do not meet standers maybe more papers should be pulled colts are easy geld them then they can not reproduce spaying is still expencive in mares you can have a catalist done but perhaps its better if there was a way that an owner could call the ASSN and say this mare really should not be bred and have that marked on her papers as a non breeding animal. that would slow down the production of questionable horse--just a thought

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 06:19 PM

Any horse that is unable to gait, should be gelded, not bred and the papers pulled if it is sold by the breeder

Oh no, no, no....please do not ever pull the papers off a horse if you can help it. ...Geld YES, but don't take away his identity. He is relatively harmless to the breed as a gelding....he cannot reproduce so don't further penalize him and send him on his way without papers...that action alone can get him to auction as another horse life "thrown away".

Mares are a much "worse" threat... if you cannot afford to spay that mare...(and I can tell you it will cost $600 and up depending upon what type procedure used...so of course many people will opt to throw out the papers instead)....would it not be better to be able to give her "non-breeding stock" papers? So no registration could ever take place on any offspring FROM her?

I never could understand WHY a breeder cannot put "pet papers" on a horse. Dog breeders do this all the time...if the dog is not breed standard...it gets "pet papers" designation and no offspring can be registered....

Would it not be better to have a registration paper that states "no offspring from this mare will be PFHA(or other assoc) registered" instead of throwing the papers away so the horse cannot ever be identified?

I have gone on a PFHA paper chase many times. It was not for breeding purposes, but rather to find out who the horse was, who bred it, where it came from..and what the story was on the horse. Lets not sweep those horses under the rug like they never existed....lets LEARN from them instead....Just another reason a grading board makes sense to me.

What about the case where the horse was sold as a yearling, and then a couple years later, when it goes under saddle and is found to have NO gait? To me...just another reason to put some kind of grading board in place...to PROTECT the breed standard (from those who choose NOT to!)... to have a "Preferred breeder list" of people who care enough or are concerned enough to do the right thing for the breed. JMO

Siggy

04-02-2009, 06:27 PM

other gait breeds put temporary (not sure what they are called in each breed) papers on horses until a specific age and then they prove by inspection or video the gait of the horse. If the inspection or video is not done or the horse does not pass gait requirements, then the permanent breeding papers are not issued.

I know you are for a grading system, while I disagree with the full blown system because there are too many variables that could be controlled by money and power and personal preferances within a gaited breed. I do agree with the type of system above, it does not grade the horse on the quality of gait, the tightness or quickness or lift or any other aspects of the breeds gait and no it does not only mean the best or elite get papers but it does mean that the horse's gait must fall within the description of the breeds gait. Example, a two beat pace and a two beat trot would not be a passing gait unless there is a breed out there that considers a two beat pace an accepted gait.

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 06:36 PM

but looking at the poor sap who has invested all this time and $$$$$$$$$$ to find out the horses is worth in the hundres, this is someone that is going to breed this horse right,wrong or indifferant because he's going to try to get some of that money back, do you blame him really??????

YES..I "Blame" him....for one thing....why was he keeping that horse in training for soooo long when it showed no gait...and what took the trainer sooooo long to figure it out? I mean c'mon....that sounds more like a trainer "preying" on a "newbie"... and that is something that happens in every breed...if that "guy" is not smart enough to know the difference...or to even question why it is taking sooooo long....then perhaps he should LOSE the money...he has no right to "victimize" others over his loss.
Maybe he'd have better luck just gambling in Vegas and handing his money over to the "table" if he is going to be
that easily taken.

There is a FINE example in this state of a person who kept a colt in training in Florida for over two years (closer to 3 yrs)...because he was told by the trainer...that he (the trainer) could MAKE it a FINO horse...it would just "take a couple years"...
Well..it wasn't a Fino horse to begin with, it was NEVER going to magically change into a Fino horse...and to this day...he's not a Fino horse...go figure! The owner needs to "own" this mistake and "eat up".

Now...should that horse be sold as "Fino" and have the cost of his training tacked on his price too? Should he be "peddled off" on someone looking to buy a Paso? Another "poor Sap"?
I sure don't think so....and who would pay what would be over $20,0000 for a horse who is in and out of gait and mostly trochas? Surely not an experienced Paso person....
More likely that horse would have to be marketed to a person NEW TO THE BREED who doesn't know much about gait...ENTER "another victim"...and the cycle continues...

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 06:43 PM

If the inspection or video is not done or the horse does not pass gait requirements, then the permanent breeding papers are not issued.

I'm all FOR that (permanent vs non-permanent registry or whatever one wants to call it)...and NO...it cannot be open only to the "elite" or fanciest Pasos..but rather to ALL those who can "pass the test"....

If you don't submit for test...then be happy with "regular papers/pet papers.... I'm sure LOTS of poeple who love their Pasos, and don't care to breed them, and don't care if they have perfect gait cadence, will never apply for "permanent registry" anyway....

All I'm saying is if you have horses you think are worthy of breeding...submit them and get on a preferred/permanent/breeding stock approved list. Or "breeding registry" list...
That way....you can be more sure that what you are breeding is truly breed worthy, and your buyer can have a bit of assurance too.... at least something like that would be a START! Gotta start somewhere....

Cindy

04-02-2009, 06:45 PM

Siggy, which breeds do that? With the temporary paper thing until they qualify the gait?

Terry, I agree with your last post entirely. And you have a point about simply pulling the papers as well. "Pet" grade papers may be a good answer to that. Problem with that is that a lot of breeders would not put pet grade papers on their animals as they would not want their bloodlines floating around out there on non-breeding quality animals. Of course some of those same breeders would not pull papers in order to cull horses either. But I do know of breeders who would pull papers but would never do the "pet" grade thing because they think they are protecting their program. Not right, no. But a fact of life.

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 07:02 PM

Problem with that is that a lot of breeders would not put pet grade papers on their animals as they would not want their bloodlines floating around out there on non-breeding quality animals.

Oh I agree...you are absolutely correct on that..they'd rather it be a "secret".

WHY not educate and let them know they do not CONTROL genetics as much as they'd like to think that they do...and its NOT thier fault when genetics throws them a curve.

Bottom line to me is don't PUNISH the horse for that...its not the horse's fault either. Just OWN what it is and move on...learn from it...

I always assume people who breed horses LOVE their horses, and would want to do the right thing for those horses...even if they are "less than perfect"....SPEAK for that horse...don't throw it away....its your job as a breeder to own that responsibility and find that horse a home.
If you can't at least do that much..maybe you shouldn't be breeding horses to begin with, as you are then just "part of the horse over-population PROBLEM." JMO

Hacienda Radiante

04-02-2009, 07:09 PM

You know, it has confounded me for a long time that paso breeders expect each and every horse that hits the ground to be a perfect representation of the breed. I don't know of any other breed that works that hard to deny the fact that breeding always involves an element of chance and that there IS NO SUCH THING as a perfect stallion or a perfect mare. There will always be predatory sellers, so it is incumbent on the buyers to inform themselves about what constitutes a quality animal so they don't overpay for the horse (either to the seller or the trainer). You wouldn't buy a $5000 clunker and expect to run it in a NASCAR race, even if the 'mechanic' told you it had a great engine and he could fix it up for you, right?

So, back to my original question, how do we define Pasos to newbies? Educated buyers will become aficiandos because they will get what they expect from the horse they buy (regardless of the price point they are shopping at). People who get ripped off will go out into the wider world and trash the breed. So, what do we say?

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-02-2009, 07:09 PM

Just this weekend, I was offered a free breeding to a stallion that has never come into gait. Excellent bloodlines by a top stallion...beautiful horse, but for as long as I have known him (at least 6 years), they have yet to find a trainer that could get him into Paso Fino gait from trocha. Not to mention his attitude is not the best. And the person plans to buy an embryo out of a top mare to match w/him just to see what he would throw.
....not what I'd do...but my point is...people are doing that type of thing...and think it's ok.
And who knows...maybe that horse matched w/the right mare would make a champion....or not....

But I agree with Cindy, ppl are not going to issue pet papers b/c it might taint their farms/horses reputation. It would have to be done by the association, unbiasedly.

Siggy

04-02-2009, 07:10 PM

There are a number of them
SSHBEA(spotted saddle horse)
The horse must exhibit a saddle gait and the application must bear the signature of a SSHBEA licensed inspector.

Inspection Requirements
All horses are required to be inspected by a SSHBEA Inspector. A list of inspectors for a given area is enclosed with the registration information packets obtained from the SSHBEA. Another option is to call the SSHBEA office and request a list of licensed inspectors. The list is also available online at SSHBEA Licensed Inspectors (Listed By State). If there is not an inspector in your area, you have the option of taking a video of your horse in motion and submit that video to the SSHBEA Office along with your paperwork. This video will be viewed and returned to you.

Kentucky Mountain & Spotted Mountain
Requirements for Permanent Registration "Certification" (in addition to the above) please submit: Temporary Registration Certificate, Video or two Licensed Examiners signatures required, plus 5 photos: back, front, both sides, under chin. DNA is required to be on file with the University of Kentucky for "Proof of Identity".

Permanent Registration: All KMSHA and SMHA Horses must be certified to breed by their fourth birthday. Temporary registration certificate will expire on any KMSHA/SMHA 4 year old horse who is not certified as of December 31, 2006 and thereafter on their fourth birthday. If the registration papers have expired on any horse due to this directive, new papers will be issued only upon completion of official Certification of each horse. This applies to all Stallions, Mares and Geldings and will certify that they have now met the "Standard of the Breed".

I believe the Icelandic has an evaluation but I am not sure that it is a requirement for registration

There are some others as well

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-02-2009, 07:13 PM

You know, it has confounded me for a long time that paso breeders expect each and every horse that hits the ground to be a perfect representation of the breed. I don't know of any other breed that works that hard to deny the fact that breeding always involves an element of chance and that there IS NO SUCH THING as a perfect stallion or a perfect mare. There will always be predatory sellers, so it is incumbent on the buyers to inform themselves about what constitutes a quality animal so they don't overpay for the horse (either to the seller or the trainer). You wouldn't buy a $5000 clunker and expect to run it in a NASCAR race, even if the 'mechanic' told you it had a great engine and he could fix it up for you, right?

Funny you should say that b/c I have not seen a breed more inclined to have buyers that want a horse that can do it all (including race w/Nascar) for the low low price of $3000.
Newbies always want a horse they can trail ride, do parades, let the kids ride, and oh yeah....and they might want to show it down the road. (and it better win or else the whole show is based on politics :p)

Hacienda Radiante

04-02-2009, 07:30 PM

and they might want to show it down the road.

Oh, people say that, but really what they are asking is 'is this a good quality horse, good enough to show', not 'Can I show this horse'. Everyone wants to hear that they have a beautiful baby. :) And people ALWAYS over estimate what they will end up doing with the horse. I had a lady call me about a trail paso one time, wanting to know if she would be suitable for her daughter who was interested in learning to jump. I told her that while they CAn jump, Pasos weren't known for their jumping ability and she might want to look at other breeds first if jumping was important to her decision. :P

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-02-2009, 07:40 PM

Oh, people say that, but really what they are asking is 'is this a good quality horse, good enough to show', not 'Can I show this horse'. Everyone wants to hear that they have a beautiful baby. :) And people ALWAYS over estimate what they will end up doing with the horse. I had a lady call me about a trail paso one time, wanting to know if she would be suitable for her daughter who was interested in learning to jump. I told her that while they CAn jump, Pasos weren't known for their jumping ability and she might want to look at other breeds first if jumping was important to her decision. :P

Yeah, but there are people who would say the seller was dishonest if they were told the horse was not show quality after they bought it.

Lori Perez

04-02-2009, 07:53 PM

So we have to consider two totally different things. FIrst of all do we wish to include in our registry, horses of similar ancestry who now do totally opposite gait and have quite different conformation?

Second of all do will we allow the interbreeding of these different modalities registering them on the basis of performance as well as parent verification?

And finally will this be beneficial to the existing breed?

For those of you who haven't kept up with this, this is where we are now although there are other options.

For example had we rather form a close association with the association who currently registers the diagonals, support them, but maintain separate registries and not allow interbreeding.

Or last of all should we just keep them separated as they have been?

1-They will not be included in the registry for breeding purposed. PFHA is only issuing a certificate of validation for the purposes of showing only. The horse already has be to registered and DNA on file.
2-No, this will not happen in PFHA
3-N/A No - don't register on basis of performance only!
4-Each association will remain independent of each other, but work together to support the horses & the membership
5- Should remain seperate, but classes should be offered if PFHA want to continue to maintain 2 votes with Confepaso.

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 07:54 PM

And who knows...maybe that horse matched w/the right mare would make a champion....or not....

Geeze....why bother? With so many good proven horses to choose from..why risk making another sub-standard PF?
Has this person offering this horse at stud doing that for "the welfare of the breed?"
Chances are far greater no "Champion" will result from this....BUT..lets say it does just for the sake of conversation...

Lets say the champion (lets make him a stallion)goes on to breed many mares. Of those mares, lets say 25% off offspring don't gait....NOW...how much damage has been done? Was the welfare of the breed paramount? I sure don't think so....

Thats like breeding a DSLD mare.... she's so lame, owner can't ride her anymore...paid a lot of money for her...and now will breed her. That mare has say...six offspring in her broodmare career. The offspring get sold...the owner does not disclose the mare's problem, and the buyers don't ever see that mare anyway. Will every offspring get DSLD...well its not too likely every one will...but very likely you are breeding the tendency back into the breed....why would you set up a buyer to a possible horse "failure" like that?
Why would you risk breeding that mare in the first place...why victimize someone else...even though it may be ten years before the DSLD shows up...just like it took ten years for it to show up in the mare...
Is that breeding even HUMANE? I don't think so....JMO

The biggest problem is that people refuse to be RESPONSIBLE for what they are doing...many will let the $ over-ride the THINKING...

I knew that mare....she was offered to me on a free lease...she got returned after I got a diagnosis....Sad story but TRUE..... goes on all the time...

Lori Perez

04-02-2009, 07:58 PM

okay lets back up to here for a moment, useing the senario of the young colt the horse has been in training for 2+ yrs and you'd give him another yr to "come in to gait". i mean really times like now who can afford this???????? we'll say training is $500 a month(cheap for most training) at the trainer 24 months that $12,000 in training !!!!! plus the price of the horse plus all the other stuff, then to say the horse is a cull and should not be papered(which i agree) but looking at the poor sap who has invested all this time and $$$$$$$$$$ to find out the horses is worth in the hundres, this is someone that is going to breed this horse right,wrong or indifferant because he's going to try to get some of that money back, do you blame him really??????

that is why i say if you hear the term has not "came into gait" and your talking anythign but a just started horse RUN

training is an investment and one that should be made if by owner or someone else, but be realistic if the horses has been w/ a trainer 3-5 months gaiting should no longer be an issue it may still be inconsistan because ever horses learns at a differant rate, but as the owner of the horses you need to decided how long before you are going to reasonably give them to gait feeding on that they are bred to be Natural, i expect gait the moment the horses is in balance, a month at the trainer and no sign of gait that horse would be gone w/o papers.(for me)

this term coming into gait i believe has fueled alot of trouble

HELLO!! You said it the owner needs to get real AND the trainers who do this need to stop taking advantage of the owners, stringing them along, AND Breeders need to stop breeding to stallions that are NOT IN GAIT:)

Lori Perez

04-02-2009, 08:06 PM

Oh no, no, no....please do not ever pull the papers off a horse if you can help it. ...Geld YES, but don't take away his identity.

Couldn't agree more! I really do wish PFHA would include information on the papers should the owner want to sell a mare, and make sure she won't be bred & the new owner won't be able to register any offspring.
Terry what you wrote was good, why don't you submit that to the registration committee at PFHA?

Cindy

04-02-2009, 08:11 PM

5- Should remain seperate, but classes should be offered if PFHA want to continue to maintain 2 votes with Confepaso.

Lori, I know that it is the thinking of many if not most people that the validation certificates where done in order to keep the seats in CONFEPASO. However, Jose made a point at the meeting to state that this was not in fact the case. The issue of the seat to CONFEPASO was resolved prior to the validation certificates and that resolution stated that it would not be brought up again. The reson for this is that it is against the bylaws as the bylaws of CONFEPASO state that the representative is the country and we are the representative from the United States. The bylaws of CONFEPASO would have to be change in order for the issue to even be brought up again. Just clarifying this as I know that many if not most people think the same that you do. I have even talked to some folks who were AT THE MEETING and heard the same thing that I heard who apparently did not listen to what was said.

Cindy

04-02-2009, 08:19 PM

Geeze....why bother? With so many good proven horses to choose from..why risk making another sub-standard PF?
Has this person offering this horse at stud doing that for "the welfare of the breed?"
Chances are far greater no "Champion" will result from this....BUT..lets say it does just for the sake of conversation...

Lets say the champion (lets make him a stallion)goes on to breed many mares. Of those mares, lets say 25% off offspring don't gait....NOW...how much damage has been done? Was the welfare of the breed paramount? I sure don't think so....

Thats like breeding a DSLD mare.... she's so lame, owner can't ride her anymore...paid a lot of money for her...and now will breed her. That mare has say...six offspring in her broodmare career. The offspring get sold...the owner does not disclose the mare's problem, and the buyers don't ever see that mare anyway. Will every offspring get DSLD...well its not too likely every one will...but very likely you are breeding the tendency back into the breed....why would you set up a buyer to a possible horse "failure" like that?
Why would you risk breeding that mare in the first place...why victimize someone else...even though it may be ten years before the DSLD shows up...just like it took ten years for it to show up in the mare...
Is that breeding even HUMANE? I don't think so....JMO

The biggest problem is that people refuse to be RESPONSIBLE for what they are doing...many will let the $ over-ride the THINKING...

I knew that mare....she was offered to me on a free lease...she got returned after I got a diagnosis....Sad story but TRUE..... goes on all the time...

First let me say that I do not disagree with al this. But secondly, and this is were the grey area comes in for practical purposes. I just happened to be talking to another trainer today and during the conversation we were discussing a top stalliion in the breed. He mentioned that you gotta watch for gait in this particular stallion's offspring as it is not always there. Now, understand, this particular stallion is well gaited and many of his offpring are as well. But I mentioned one particular offspring of this stallion who none of us have ever seen in gait. He was as beautiful a trocha horse as ever there was one. Then I metioned that I have never seen an offspring of THAT stallion who DID NOT gait. And he said that he had not either ever seen an offspring of that non-gaiting stallion who did not gait. Further, I have trained offspring of that non-gaiting stallion who were some of the best Paso Fino horses in every respect, temperament, tractability, brio and gait that I have ever trained. In fact, one of his offspring rates as one of my favorite all time horses. So, should he have been taken out of the breeding pool? Perhaps. But had he been, I would have missed out on one great horse. LOL

Lori Perez

04-02-2009, 08:34 PM

Cindy - I have even been told it may come up at the next meeting. (That was the only reason why I made mention of it). Maybe people are listening but are getting two different answers. I REALLY wish all the politics would get out of the way..maybe this could have been resolved last year, so we can get on with things.

There has been a lack of information made available to the general membership about this whole process and procedure.. I get emails from people asking me about PFHA and what the procedures are for the validation process so they can compete at the next show (that is offering diagonal classes), who have called PFHA and they haven't been able to give them a direct answer.

Why do you think PFHA has now to do this? Just curious about what your thoughts are on this (based on what Jose has told you). Why do you feel they have had a change of heart?

Serendipity

04-02-2009, 08:35 PM

using the AKC papers for example perhaps we are looking at it the wrong way, with AKC the breeder decares weather a dog is show quality or pet, but many show quality dogs are sold as pet because the price is lower.

my Jinx is a show quailty dog from a top breeder, i was not going to show or breed so i paid the pet qaulity price.

switching it to horses if one wants to buy a colt by some famous stallion if colt is kept a stallion it is in direct compitition w/ his father as the owner of the stallion selling that colt might be better to sell it at a lower price w/ "pet" papers for a horse assumed to be going to a pet home this colt would not effect the stallion it would help because it would not be a breeder that was not purchases as show quality then just bred to anything that moved bring the stallions value down

basicly the top stallion would only be competeing against his sons and daughter bought and perchases as show quailty, and the rest are family horses to be enjoyed but if the stallion stud fee is $3500 and an offspring is $500 that does not look good for the stallion even though the breeder assumed the horse would be a gelding

does that make sence i was beginning to confuse myself

Lori Perez

04-02-2009, 08:39 PM

First let me say that I do not disagree with al this. But secondly, and this is were the grey area comes in for practical purposes. I just happened to be talking to another trainer today and during the conversation we were discussing a top stalliion in the breed. He mentioned that you gotta watch for gait in this particular stallion's offspring as it is not always there. Now, understand, this particular stallion is well gaited and many of his offpring are as well. But I mentioned one particular offspring of this stallion who none of us have ever seen in gait. He was as beautiful a trocha horse as ever there was one. Then I metioned that I have never seen an offspring of THAT stallion who DID NOT gait. And he said that he had not either ever seen an offspring of that non-gaiting stallion who did not gait. Further, I have trained offspring of that non-gaiting stallion who were some of the best Paso Fino horses in every respect, temperament, tractability, brio and gait that I have ever trained. In fact, one of his offspring rates as one of my favorite all time horses. So, should he have been taken out of the breeding pool? Perhaps. But had he been, I would have missed out on one great horse. LOL

I get what you are saying here - it is true this can happen and it does! (Like we have said before there is no guarantee, and we would need to look at the gene pool). BUT the difference with the stallion you mention is he is A PROVEN PRODUCER. We have a big problem in our breed where stallions are being breed to - when it is common knowledge and proven that his offspring tend to go into diagonal.

Cindy

04-02-2009, 08:41 PM

Cindy

04-02-2009, 08:43 PM

Cindy

04-02-2009, 08:44 PM

I get what you are saying here - it is true this can happen and it does! (Like we have said before there is no guarantee, and we would need to look at the gene pool). BUT the difference with the stallion you mention is he is A PROVEN PRODUCER. We have a big problem in our breed where stallions are being breed to - when it is common knowledge and proven that his offspring tend to go into diagonal.

True, but he was not ALWAYS a proven producer. At one time he was a fantastic colt who wouldn't gait to save his life. So should he have ever been bred?

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-02-2009, 09:41 PM

Cindy

04-02-2009, 09:42 PM

It is a done deal. The validation certificates were voted in at the last meeting.

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-02-2009, 09:46 PM

Carlos Tobon, prez of ATTA informed me:

I want to clarify that the points that were announced in Miami this weekend are not valid yet. PFHA and ATTA are finishing the details on how the Certificate of Validation for competition purposes is established through PFHA.
This has not been finalized and should be done after the PFHA board meeting in April.

Thanks
Carlos

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 09:54 PM

At one time he was a fantastic colt who wouldn't gait to save his life. So should he have ever been bred?

Answer...NO. If they don't have a lot of natural talent...there are plenty more out there that DO...why muddy the breed with questionable horses to begin with?
Why have to really work & work to get that gait?
AND then there is this: it is common knowledge and proven that his offspring tend to go into diagonal.

Separate question.....what was so fantastic about this particular offspring?
(Before he gaited I mean)

There is always going to be "grey area".... if the King Ranch hadn't taken the risks they did....they would not be who they are today....difference is....you didn't get to SEE the "mistakes"...they did not leave there....

Hacienda Radiante

04-02-2009, 09:56 PM

Yeah, but there are people who would say the seller was dishonest if they were told the horse was not show quality after they bought it.

Yup. That's why we try to match horse to rider and usage. But the term 'show quality' means something different to each person -- are we talking about bella forma, versatility or 'performance' show quality? There are a lot of classes where an Amateur Owner on a fugly horse can do well. I personally own a well-gaited, placid but short-legged and PORTLY mare who happened to be a Youth Pleasure champion in FL in her day. If a buyer were to ask me whether she was show quality I'd tell them 'yes' and that she would be competitive in regional youth or trail classes, but not bella forma at any level (although it would be darn funny to see everyone's face if this mare waddled into a bella forma class. By mistake of course.)

IMO sellers need to be clear about which classes and what level (local, regional, national) when they are asked if the horse is 'show-quality', and buyers need to be realistic about their own abilities and what they are buying for the $$ they are spending. And do their breed research so, like the Gipper used to say, they 'trust, but verify'.

Cindy

04-02-2009, 10:02 PM

Answer...NO. If they don't have a lot of natural talent...there are plenty more out there that DO...why muddy the breed with questionable horses to begin with?
Why have to really work & work to get that gait?

Separate question.....what was so fantastic about this particular offspring?
(Before he gaited I mean)

There is always going to be "grey area".... if the King Ranch hadn't taken the risks they did....they would not be who they are today....difference is....you didn't get to SEE the "mistakes"...they did not leave there....

He has every other attribute that you would want in a Paso Fino. Beautiful conformation. Excellent breeding. Symmetrical movement. Drive. Power. Quickness. Everything except that he did not gait. So, the question is.......is Paso Fino ONLY gait or should those OTHER attributes combined count as much as the gait? If one is following the breed standard, how many horses meet PERFECT breed standard? And if you are a grading board, should gait be the ONLY requirement? If the horse does not meet breed standards in several other areas but it is well gaited, should it pass as a breeding horse? Lots of new avenues for discussion opened with these questions.

Cindy

04-02-2009, 10:03 PM

Yup. That's why we try to match horse to rider and usage. But the term 'show quality' means something different to each person -- are we talking about bella forma, versatility or 'performance' show quality? There are a lot of classes where an Amateur Owner on a fugly horse can do well. I personally own a well-gaited, placid but short-legged and PORTLY mare who happened to be a Youth Pleasure champion in FL in her day. If a buyer were to ask me whether she was show quality I'd tell them 'yes' and that she would be competitive in regional youth or trail classes, but not bella forma at any level (although it would be darn funny to see everyone's face if this mare waddled into a bella forma class. By mistake of course.)

IMO sellers need to be clear about which classes and what level (local, regional, national) when they are asked if the horse is 'show-quality', and buyers need to be realistic about their own abilities and what they are buying for the $$ they are spending. And do their breed research so, like the Gipper used to say, they 'trust, but verify'.

Absolutely.

Cindy

04-02-2009, 10:04 PM

Oh, and, Terry, he never gaited that I know of. Though he apparently does have a National placement in the Fino division.

Cindy

04-02-2009, 10:04 PM

Carlos Tobon, prez of ATTA informed me:

Okey Dokey.

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 10:21 PM

He has every other attribute that you would want in a Paso Fino. Beautiful conformation. Excellent breeding. Symmetrical movement. Drive. Power. Quickness. Everything except that he did not gait.

Thats a tough one...so what finally got him gaiting?

Yes...there are many questions on the table...lots to think about. I feel it cannot be "gait alone"..that there are certain "mechanical features" that must be considered....
There are NO "Perfect" horses, no "perfectly conformed" horses either...but there are many things to consider, longevity of soundness is one that is big with me.
Faults that lead to unsoundness, even faults like bad bites are things to be considered and when they are showing up at a rate of 3 or more significant faults on the same horse...even if that horse "gaits"..its still buyer beware to me...as just because he is gaiting now....doesn't guarantee he will last very long!

Dr. Marvin Beeman has spent a lifetime tracking what kind of faults are turning into problems and he can even predict problems to come by evaluating faults before the problem happens. There is much info to be had these days...so why not put it into practice? Why not try to breed the best horses we can?

Permanent vs. non-permanent registry may be the way to do that... you would automatically get papers...but you must pass a test to advance to the permanent registry, and get the "preferred" papers.

There is no "Perfect" way to do it..but you have to start somewhere. I think it would bring the Paso Fino value UP to have a preferred/permanent registry. JMO

Terry Wallace

04-02-2009, 10:23 PM

he never gaited that I know of. Though he apparently does have a National placement in the Fino division.

HOW does that happen? :biggrin:

Lori Perez

04-03-2009, 03:04 AM

True, but he was not ALWAYS a proven producer. At one time he was a fantastic colt who wouldn't gait to save his life. So should he have ever been bred? But he was a colt. I am referring to horses over the age of 5 years old that have been under saddle and competing in the ring. You are always taking more of a chance breeding an unknown colt, that is why there are introductory (reduced) fees.

If (like you mentioned before) the horse was great in all othe aspects except his gait (and over the age of 5, etc.) , I would maybe consider it if his gene pool had a strong proven dam side that had no issues with gait. Otherwise I would go with the next stallion in line.

Lori Perez

04-03-2009, 03:22 AM

Cindy what Lori Ford says is true... In fact I just sent more information off to Carlos on Tuesday which was requested by PFHA. I checked the website, there is no info., none of the horses that competed in the ring at the show in Miami had certificates of validation issued by PFHA, so there is no way the points would stand, unless PFHA went back and made them retroactive once the get the paperwork done on the horses.

Yes, PFHA had approved it at the last meeting, but there were many kinks still to iron out.

SandyMM

04-03-2009, 02:41 PM

none of the horses that competed in the ring at the show in Miami had certificates of validation issued by PFHASo if certificates were not issued, was this in fact an 'historic event' or an exhibition? :confused:

Lori Perez

04-03-2009, 02:57 PM

Don't know. Only PFHA has that answer.

Cindy

04-03-2009, 04:09 PM

At the last meeting it was brought up that SR wanted to include the classes at their show that was like the following weekend. They were told to go ahead and have the classes and once the validation certificates were issued, the points would be awarded. And as far as kinks go, there are WAY more kinks in the whole thing than are possible to be worked out by the end of the April meeting. But that is what happens when things are rushed through and not taken through proper channels. I brought up at the last meeting many of the things that the ATTA has since brought up and did not receive what I considered to be adequate answers. That is why I voted against the validation certificates. Not to mention the fact that they suspended the rules in order to even vote on the issue. But here we are. Again.

Hacienda Radiante

04-03-2009, 04:10 PM

He has every other attribute that you would want in a Paso Fino. Beautiful conformation. Excellent breeding. Symmetrical movement. Drive. Power. Quickness. Everything except that he did not gait. So, the question is.......is Paso Fino ONLY gait or should those OTHER attributes combined count as much as the gait? If one is following the breed standard, how many horses meet PERFECT breed standard? And if you are a grading board, should gait be the ONLY requirement? If the horse does not meet breed standards in several other areas but it is well gaited, should it pass as a breeding horse? Lots of new avenues for discussion opened with these questions.

JMO, but if one breed standard characteristic is *completely* lacking, I wouldn't breed it. What you are describing isn't a matter of degree (better or worse gaited) but a complete lack. That's exactly why we gelded the cute, but shrimpy, non-gaited Paso stud I mentioned buying earlier. He actually has good bloodlines and decent conformation (and his shrimpiness is due to malnutrition, so is probably not inheritable) but in my mind the lack of gait is a huge strike and not worth the risk for the breed genepool to make even one attempt to see if there is anything good/recessive in him. Too many other worthy candidates out there.

Cindy

04-03-2009, 04:16 PM

What if it were a different portion of the breed standard that was lacking? What if the horse was tremedous but had no brio? Or if he had a big head? Or a long back? Would just one of those weaknesses count the same to you? Or is it only the gait that is that important? If it is only the gait, why are those other things not as important in a breeding horse? They are faults as well. And as far as just breeding horses of any breed goes, possibly bigger faults than gait.

Terry Wallace

04-03-2009, 04:30 PM

they suspended the rules in order to even vote on the issue.:shocked:

Hacienda Radiante

04-03-2009, 04:33 PM

Excellent questions, but for all the examples you provided (with the possible exception of the brio), it's a matter of degree, not a complete lack. If a Paso completely lacked brio, I wouldn't breed that one either. I've run into a few geldings who were so laid back and lazy that you couldn't tell they were pasos! Someone, somewhere along the line made the right decision on their behalf. :) Most of the other flaws start heading off into that huge grey area that is encompassed by the term 'nick'. If the mare is stellar in that area, then she may correct the stallion. At least you have a fighting chance! Now if you were going to talk about something like clubfoot, I'd say that is a deficiency that equals a 'lack' on the conformation side. I'd geld that one and on a mare, this is a great example of where you would want to have a non-breeding papers category.

The other variable here is what the breeder is seeking to create -- some people don't give a fig about conformation and only want footfall. Others don't care if it gaits well as long as it's pretty, or a particular color. I can only speak for my own breeding decisions. What's tougher to evaluate IMO are things like 'attitude'. Let's say the stallion you described DID gait, but had a truly evil personality. I'd avoid that one myself, although I know others who wouldn't. And the other question I would ask myself is whether the bloodlines on that stallion were SO unique that he was the only representation of them, or if he had brothers who might be a better balanced choice.

SandyMM

04-03-2009, 04:51 PM

I think we should bring up at this point that a gelding doesn't always happen because of a perceived flaw. We gelded Boogie at 5 months because we thought we might want to keep him, didn't need another stallion any time soon, and wanted him to be able to be turned out with Pete and others.

Siggy

04-03-2009, 05:06 PM

OK - I'll bite.
There is a difference between a FAULT and something that is not breed standard. I dont think a big head is a fault by conformation definition, it may not complete the whole package and a prettier headed horse who is equal to it may win over a beauty conformation but an ugly headed horses is not the same as a parrot mouthed horse or a horse with bad legs or a non gaited horse that is part of a GAITED BREED.

brio, again part of the breed standards but does not make or break conformation or gait (although a lazy, brio lack horse can be less rapid and show less presence)

long back, if the over all length makes th conformation unbalanced or out of proportion then yes it is a fault, now if it is just longer than some PREFER but is in proportion for the horse, then no.

So when the horse meets all conformation and requirements of the breed (and I think a requirement within PFHA according to its literature) then one goes on to look at the whole package of those and perhaps compare to each other, although when judging they are to be compared to breed standards not each other. In other words the horse that comes closest to breed standards (after all requirements have been met which includes eliminating fauluts) should be highest awarded.

Terry Wallace

04-03-2009, 05:33 PM

There is a difference between a FAULT and something that is not breed standard. I dont think a big head is a fault by conformation definition, it may not complete the whole package and a prettier headed horse who is equal to it may win over a beauty conformation but an ugly headed horses is not the same as a parrot mouthed horse or a horse with bad legs or a non gaited horse that is part of a GAITED BREED.

Agree....

Since you brought up a recessive fault (parrot mouth or sow mouth) you cannot fault ONLY the sire, or only the dam for that.... since both parents had to contribute the gene for that fault to express.

For me..I'm pretty much "three faults and you are out" for breeding consideration. ALL horses have faults.
The DEGREE of fault will play a part with me, and so will the TYPE of fault it is...

Leg and hoof faults are what I look for first...because GAIT is a given for me...if it don't gait...I'm not interested in breeding it. I'm not the King Ranch....I can't afford to risk making even one "faulty" foal... I have to try my very best to breed the best foal I can....this is why no one stallion is the "best nick" for every mare....and vise-versa.

Cindy

04-03-2009, 06:43 PM

But all of those things are faults in this breed AND are part of the breed standard. The question really becomes is lack of gait a bigger fault than all those other ones. To many, it is. To others, those other faults are just as great as the lack of gait. So, by Terrys 3 and your out rule, if lack of gait is the ONLY fault, that is only one fault amoung an otherwise good example of the breed. I think most people feel that, of course, this is a gaited breed and gait should be foremost. But we have also seen in our history the other side of the coin where gait was prefered too much over all the other aspects of the breed standard and we ended up with fugly horses who had gait out the ***. And eventually other breeds were crossed to make prettier, more correct horses which is why we now have throwbacks to horses who did not gait. So the cycle comes full circle.

And the King ranch exaple is very valid in discussing the breeding of Paso horses as well. Within our own breed in this country there are no, none, zip, zero ranches with 1000 head of Pasos who are breeding 100s of mares a year. But in Colombia were the different "modalities" originated, this is not uncommon. And, as Terry said, we don't have the luxury of experimentation that those numbers brings. So perhaps we are at a disadvantage from our Colombian friends in that we must be more particular in the crosses that we make.

Great discussion by the way. Thanks.

Siggy

04-03-2009, 06:49 PM

Terry Wallace

04-03-2009, 07:27 PM

Personally (maybe that question is for Cindy)...but I DO
first look at faults first.."breed standard" second.....
But then...breed standard already includes a "fault".
That fault (accepted by PFHA) will come down to DEGREE of fault for me.....

IMO..there is no real reason for me to consider breed standard if the horse is "that faulty"...I'd move on....to a different horse.

On a different note...the last dog show I went to in Denver....did not adhere to this: remove animals with genetic faults then the breed standards .... it was SAD!

Cindy

04-03-2009, 08:36 PM

so are you saying that within PFHA, breed standards are as high as or even higher than the genetic FAULTS associated with all equine?

That you dont first eliminate true faults and then look at breed standards for this breed which is within the species?

I am just relating to say dog shows, first your remove animals with genetic faults then the breed standards (thus the name BREED standards) is adhered to, which is generally based on the original organizations definition of what was attractive and/or useful to owners and breeders when it was founded.

No, no. What I am saying is that those things that I mentioned are faults in this breed because they are discrepancies from the breed standard. Notice that I did not go so far as to mention genetic faults such as bad mouth or leg faults wchich would be a fault in any breed ours included. And I didn't mention those things because they are not the same as the horse's gait. They are not the same because they are not necessarilly faults in all breeds who have a different breed standard than ours. Trotting is not a fault for a QH. It is for a Paso Fino. Our breed standard includes how the horse is to gait as well as how the horse is to be conformed. So a big head or a long back or a trotting horse may not be a fault in another breed because it's breed standard is different than ours. A fugly horse is not necessarilly an unsound horse. It could have straight legs and good teeth and sound conformation but not look like the breed standard of a Paso Fino. Of course the gentics faults of unsoundness that are common to all breeds are worse than a simply fugly horse who is otherwise sound yet does not meet breed standard.

Siggy

04-03-2009, 08:40 PM

Thanks, that is a little more clear. I would have thought that the gait or lack there of would be a worse fault than an unattractive head, at least for me it is:v:

Cindy

04-03-2009, 08:44 PM

And, Radiante, that attitude thing is to me is not nearly as cut and dried as the other aspects that we are discussing. The problem is that you don't know how much is genetic and how much is unbringing. I have bred to horses that were considered to be difficult. I have a mare here who is from such a stallion and mare. And she is my son's horse. Has a great disposition and has thrown me several wonderful foals. If I don't know how a stallion was raised and trained, I find it hard to blame the horse. An example from long ago was the reputation that Hilachas horses had for being difficult. I loved Hilachas horses and got along great with them. They were horses with hearts to die for. But they did not like to be pushed around and would fight to the death if you tried to dominate them. So I can see how some people could make them have attitude problems. And there are a few stalliions more recent that I feel the same way about.

Cindy

04-03-2009, 08:45 PM

Thanks, that is a little more clear. I would have thought that the gait or lack there of would be a worse fault than an unattractive head, at least for me it is:v:

LOL. Probably so.

Hacienda Radiante

04-03-2009, 09:52 PM

Yeah, I hear ya, Cindy. We're rehabbed a few like that LOL. I keep telling people that Pasos are NOT like TWH. The things I see TWHs put up with, most pasos would have sunk their teeth into the handler long beforehand. Attitude is really hard to pin down and very subjective -- what I find fun about some of my horses (inquisitive, forward) some people might interpret as 'willful' and 'aggressive'. Takes one to know one, I guess -- grin.

twopaso

04-03-2009, 11:14 PM

That took a while, but I finally got through all the threads. All the threads were very interesting.
I have a 4 yr old filly--El Classico granddaughter who is very gaited. I am having an issue with her where she does not want to go forward. I want to go in one direction and she turns around to go the other way while dipping her head down.
I just rode her around getting her to go forward, she went two weeks in a trot. I did not care because she was going the direction I wanted. Finally just before the Miami show this past weekend, she began to gait again. I had planned on showing her on Sunday, but she was doing the same thing as mentioned above plus a little rearing and bucking during lunch hour at the show. I took her out. I am now doing lots of ground work with her. I hope I can get this corrected to see what she can truely do in the show ring.

Cindy

04-03-2009, 11:43 PM

Cindy

04-03-2009, 11:49 PM

OK, had go go work for a while but I am back now. lol. What I am getting at is, if we are going to go by the 3 strikes rule, does lack of gait equal three strikes? So here is the question. You have two horses. Horse A has a big head, short neck, long back and is wasp wasted but is an incredible fino horse, National champion, unbeatable in the ring. Everyones favorite horse. Horse B is perfect in every way as a Paso Fino but he cannot sustain gait well enough to be left standing in the ring at the end of the class even though everyone wishes that he would. Which one is a better breeding candidate? Should either be a breeding candidate?

CarolU

04-04-2009, 12:10 AM

Helene

04-04-2009, 12:46 AM

I would not breed either, but would love to own the ugly, gaited one, as I have Paso Finos mostly for their gait and he would be a blast to ride. If I didn't care for the gait, I might as well have a gorgeous Arab, or maybe a Friesian, Andalusian....

Serendipity

04-04-2009, 01:40 AM

yes i would agree i'd not breed to either, the 2nd one would be dices as i would consider him but gait would win in the end no gait no girls the first one i would not even look at ( i do not care for a fino horse unless it has a really good range of speed) and the looks would then facter in to that.

but i also am shy of a fino horse that has won at Nat'l level like the colt that did not gait but still has a Nat'l placement

for me gait is very first its one less thing i have to worry about in the ring , i might consider horse 2 if he was a performance horses where gait may not be as easy to hide

but i am one that would like the monent the horses when in the ring to cross the fino board to see if they are in gait and its true, then if not they exit the class, and that gaiting should be considered in the judging but w/ fino horses showing in pleasure classes of of course the fino horses will sound better on the baord then a pleasure horse but that where the quaility of the gait comes in not just the rapid foot fall but the cadanance is it right and thats easyier to hear on a pleasure horse

motorgypsy

04-04-2009, 03:03 AM

WOW this thread took off. Just finished my first run income tax and am taking a breather. WHEW

L Perez I asked about the fate of mixed Colombian/PPR/CUban etc. paso finos fate in a mixed PFHA dominated (by numbers) registry because the diagonals are from the Colombian Criolla stock and quite frankly wondered if there would be a move to go to strictly Colombian paso finos. I wasn't asking about ATTA's rules since I'm not familiar with them but I don't know of other countries who breed the diagonals who didn't get them originally from Colombia so I'm assuming all the diagonals originalte in Colombia. And kindof wondered if this was where things were headed.

Nicole - as far as the colt that was trained for two years and did not gait correctly and had a great trainer and a very famous father and was extremely expensive, I would give him one more year because some youngsters grow in sections and can go through stages where they move peculairly also, temporarily, like ones that get really butt high for a while. This colt was small and well put together but I have no idea how well he gaits now.

As far as a not gaiting parent throwing gait - I personally know one case where the mare was quite diagonal but at least one of the offspring had gait to die for at all ranges.

But the colt I was referring to didn't trot. He just was not square. He was not trocha by any means though. I'd put him at about 33% below center. He was a great ride. I rode him a couple of miles while the trainer rode Chinook and had her looking like a world champion in a few seconds.

So you can indeed get good gait from slightly off. The problem is when the horse is only 10% or less above trot after good training. That I wouldn't breed to unless there was some really amazing reason and I had a mare who threw gait when bred to an Arabian or QH.

Cindy regarding your question about ugly with great gait vs gorgeous with little or no gait - if there were no gorgeous animals in the breed then I'd breed for the looks and keep going back to gait until the gait was set. If there were gorgeous with gait but ugly had better gait then I'd breed to best gaited gorgeous. But I don't breed unless both parents really "speak to me", have great gait and that something special. Gait is first but not "only".

Regarding dispostion we like spicy but we don't like nasty or aggressive. We also have a stallion who is turn key but not an "in your pocket" boy and a mare who is "prissy" and a real diva. The offspring is the sweetest "in your pocket" colt you could ever ask for. Don't ask me where it came from but we have found that the horses we have bred from babyhood are in general more friendly and more trusting than the ones we bought as adults so unless I know the parents I don't really reduce value on a paso fino that is not "in your pocket" or friendly. We don't tolerate aggressiveness. I've been bitten twice - once by a new horse and once by a three month old filly. Neither has remotely attempted to bite again and both bites were food protective bites not territorial or just nasty. The three month old - I should have headed off sooner. I saw the signs and didn't act sooner. So no I wouldn't reject breeding a horse that threatened over food ONCE. A second time - I probably would reject the horse for breeding.

Lack of brio is interesting because horses are prey animals and I'm suspicious of a horse that is young healthy and sluggish. I wonder if they don't have a health problem. Some sluggish youngsters aren't really sluggish - they just "don't work for free". If you give them a good reason to work they do so with energy and enjoyment.

So - it looks to me as if there are still a great many details to work out if PFHA is going to include diagonals or merge or form a partnership with ATTA, the least of which is an umbrella name to reflect all the combination.

Serendipity

04-04-2009, 03:40 PM

okay question for whom ever

useing the QH and Arab breed which trot- it is not uncommon to look at one of theses horses and see in the background western pleasure,huntseat,park, halter,and race bred horses. all in the same pedigree that is say 5-6 gen back, of course there are farms and breeding at focus on one group type like QH halter horses or western pleasure but i have seen many a QH western pleasure horses w/ Go Man GO in the back ground and that was a race horse but the fact remains every one of these horses trots no matter who's in the blood they trot

with the pasos you have PPR,Trocha,Trote Galope,Paso Fino, and Perivian(spelling), i think that is all of them, now Peruvians have broken off and are happy being there own breed way from the other Pasos and PPR are also they have there own shows and those really into PPR's are focues one there own thing other than they do breed to Paso Finos, so that leaves the 3 Paso Fino, Trocha, and Trote and my unerstanding is (correct if wrong) trote and trocha are together thats why classifide as diganals, paso fino is to be square or more lateral.

so why would we want to umbrella them all under one name when they do not do the same thing they all move differant PPR and Paso Fino(same gait),Trocha and Trote(diaganal gait. close to the same?) and the Peruvian (in a class of there own) and if we are unbrellaing a name do you include all 5+ horses because if you just count the 3 thats not all the paso's------really the only thing that is the same about these horses is they are from the caribeanne i think that gets them all,columbia,cuba,peru,puerto rico,and dominican----so with so little in common should they be the same horse? because we have already said that you would not breed a trocha to a paso fino or a trote to a PPR or a paso fino to a peruvian where as in Arabs you would breed a halter horse to a racing arab or a TB Jumper to a TB racier if you where so inclined and were trying for a eventer

as i have said we have a Holstiener here and they are under an umbrella w/ a lot of other dressagey type horses as warmbloods i could breed her to a oldenburg or a spotted warmblood, or a hanoveran,or a draft cross, or a TB all are registerable under warmblood the thing is they all may move a little differant as in more or less action or lift, some will jump better than other and some will have more endurance but they will all TROT 2beat no question trot

so are we really helping our breeds to combine a bunch of horses that do not move the same? because you know if we unbrella them people will cross breed

Lori Perez

04-04-2009, 06:45 PM

Quoted by Cindy "But that is what happens when things are rushed through and not taken through proper channels. I brought up at the last meeting many of the things that the ATTA has since brought up and did not receive what I considered to be adequate answers."

Cindy - Who rushed it through? Certainly not ATTA. PFHA has been provided with the information going back to 2005, I personally provided documents to PFHA in 2007 for the meeting. Let's not even go there. It kept being put on the back burner until the next meeting, on and on. It is is the past.
When you say you had questions, are you reffering to the same questions that ATTA had??? Because we felt the policy was poorly written and had to many "loop holes, questions, etc."

Also I would like to make it clear ATTA did not request these validation certificates.

Siggy

04-04-2009, 07:09 PM

Lori Perez

04-04-2009, 07:19 PM

Nicole - without going into great detail - it is about the heritage of the Paso breed and also the countries that belong to the Federation (Confepaso). The USA is part of the Federation. All other countries that are part of the Federation register and offer classes for the purposes of competition.

The PPR & the Peruvian had a very small gene pool and the area where the horses were located were pretty much self contained. In fact Peru did not want any of their horses leaving the country for many years (similar to the Icelandic situation) I am not an expert in this area, but I believe this to be true.

Cindy

04-04-2009, 08:00 PM

Is PFHA offering (and I will use the term loosely) diagonals so that they can not be forced by confepaso to give up one of the two seats (votes) that they have, or is that a seperate and dead issue between the two organizations and confepaso?

No, that issue has already been decided by CONFEPASO. It is against their bylaws to give the seat away.

Cindy

04-04-2009, 08:03 PM

Serendipity

04-04-2009, 08:41 PM

does confepaso offer classes for just PPR and and peruivans also to incompass all the Pasos?

I've never gone to confepaso and most likely never will my horses have to much white on them and until that rule is changes they offer nothing to me, i can meet all the other standers except my horses also don't Fino

CarolU

04-04-2009, 09:08 PM

Peruvians are not in Confepaso. They are Peruvian Paso, a different breed alltogether and not Paso Fino. What Lori is referring to is that because of their geographic isolation they kept a separate and pure gene pool.

It was not the case in Colombia or Puerto Rico where they crossed Paso Finos with other horses. I was told the diagonals came from an infusion from Lusitanos.

Lori Perez

04-04-2009, 09:14 PM

Nicole - If the horse has white going into the nostrils and lips (upper/lower), they can't compete. There are also other requirements (i.e.; height, no sway back, teeth - no under or over bite). As far as the Puervian, they would not qualify under Confepaso rules since "Termino" (winging of the front legs) is considered to be a fault.

What do you mean your horses don't fino? If it is a Paso FINO then it finos. You mean they don't have the collection of a Fino horse. You may interested in knowing that in many countries outside of the US, they are not impressed by collection like we are here. They want to hear the "music" of the gait. Yeah, they like a quick horse, but they tend to look more at the total package.

Siggy

04-04-2009, 09:17 PM

Siggy

04-04-2009, 09:18 PM

Lori, the white rule goes way beyond white in to the nostrils. It includes body spots and height of white on legs.

Cindy

04-04-2009, 10:29 PM

You guys may want to get a copy of the CONFEPASO bylaws and read them. CONFEPASO is for all horses who are descendents of the horses brought to the Americas by Columbus. Just one quote from Chapter II Article I. Purpose and Objectives:

"The purpose and objectives of Confepaso are the promotion, improvement, development and fortification of all activities related to the international admiration and marketing of the Paso horse in its various characteristic gaits and styles of movement: the Paso Fino, Colombian Trote and Galope, Colombian Trocha and Galope, Colombian Pura Trocha and the Peruvian Paso horse, which may be represented in the Confederation by an one of its member countries as long as the aforementioned horses are registered in their respective countries...."

Cindy

04-04-2009, 10:34 PM

So WHY, did PFHA decide that while not interested in registering them that they would acknowledge them on PFHA shows?

Seriously, I have tried to research this and have found no explanation for PFHA's decision.

They have their own registry, WHY does OUR registry have to offer classes for a horses that are not recognized?

I dont really want to debate it here, but is there somewhere I can find factual hearings information or association rulings or explanations as to why this is happening?

My answer is on page 9 in response to the same question from Lori:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lori Perez http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/images/solido/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/showthread.php?p=202237#post202237)
Cindy - I have even been told it may come up at the next meeting. (That was the only reason why I made mention of it). Maybe people are listening but are getting two different answers. I REALLY wish all the politics would get out of the way..maybe this could have been resolved last year, so we can get on with things.

There has been a lack of information made available to the general membership about this whole process and procedure.. I get emails from people asking me about PFHA and what the procedures are for the validation process so they can compete at the next show (that is offering diagonal classes), who have called PFHA and they haven't been able to give them a direct answer.

Why do you think PFHA has now to do this? Just curious about what your thoughts are on this (based on what Jose has told you). Why do you feel they have had a change of heart?

I think the feeling is to provide unity and to try it out and see what happens.

But if you want the answer from the horse's mouth so to speak I would contact Dr Laracuente. He is the Confepaso representative and he is the one who instigated the idea of the validation certificate.

Siggy

04-04-2009, 10:39 PM

But I want to know PFHAs reasoning, not confepaso - were there discussions for the members etc.

Why arent things like this in PF Horse World, after all it is our newletter/magazine. I would really like to see some UNITY when it comes to involving members and providing actual information in our newsletter.

So thank you cindy for your thoughts on it, it is appreciated. I wish there were somewhere that PFHA put it's decisions and thought process.

Cindy

04-04-2009, 10:51 PM

And if this had gone through the rules change proposal process, it would have been published to all members and discussed within each region prior to being voted on. I don't know what region you belong to but this was not just sprung on us at the meeting. It was in the board report prior to the meeting and available for your regions board rep to bring to the members. For example, our region always trys to have a meeting about 2 weeks prior to the BOD meeting and I brought this issue to the membership who were in attendence at that meeting for their input. Now, this process does limit the notice to those members who are present at the meeting but it is an attempt non the less to communicate prior to me being at the meeting and it is the best way that I can do it as I cannot possibly get information out and responses back from every member of our region. As far as after the meeting, the minutes are published, unfortunately only motions are included so no discussion. I try to always do a report to my region's members after the meetings. But always remember that the meetings are open to everyone to observe. I know that is not practical for everyone and cost prohibitive for many but it is an option. The January meeting was held in Orlando so not that far for hundreds of members and still very few show up. Which is sad especially because it is supposed to be an Annual Convention.

Cindy

04-04-2009, 10:52 PM

Oh, and, Dr. Laracuente WILL give you PFHAs reasoning. He represents the PFHA to Confepaso, not the other way around.

Siggy

04-04-2009, 11:02 PM

OK - thanks
BUT (there is always a but) PFHA as a whole must have come to some decisions to direct him to represent their decision.

Cindy

04-04-2009, 11:13 PM

That is true and all I can tell you is from my point of view and that is that I think it was for a sense of unity and to provide for the wishes of that portion of the membership that wants to include in some way the diagonals. I would imagine that you might get 20 something different answers if you posed the same question to the 20 something individuals who voted on the issue. And you are welcome. Wish I could help more.

Siggy

04-04-2009, 11:41 PM

Sadly, when an organization short cuts and circumvents protocol to allow for a changes that probably would not have yielded the same results there can be a higher price to pay.

I think, and it is only an observers opinion, that in creating UNITY for a few, they have alienated a greater number.

I have great trepidation towards the direction of the organization, and see the back sliding in membership, newletter size, registration and stallion breeding as the beginning of a very bad scenario for the breed.:frown:

Cindy

04-04-2009, 11:48 PM

I agree with your first two sentiments but not the third. I don't know of any business that is doing well right now so I don't think we should expect for an industry that is mostly based on discretionary spending to be thriving at this time. But time will tell.

Siggy

04-04-2009, 11:55 PM

Sure the economy has something to do with it - no doubt. But lets look at the sliding trends, they did start well before the economy went in the toilet:v:.

I find that those that can afford to drive BMW, still buy replacement BMWs - those numbers are fewer than the joe the plumber buyers but the big ticket buyers are still out there. What I am seeing is a lack of support and I dont mean in the financial way, I mean in the loyalty, and approval ratings way.

I will bow to you on the breedings and registration decline being in direct relation in part to the economy:)

My husband is in auto repair and it is actually booming - because people are fixing, rather than buying. so some areas are doing better than others

CarolU

04-05-2009, 12:02 AM

I have to agree with Cindy. Right now the entire horse industry is 'hurting.' Horses are a luxury to most people, and an easy luxury to do without. People aren't breeding for GOOD REASON, the number of new horses has to reduce to the number of people buying them. The Baby Boomer push to ranchettes and horses is over. Between that and the properties in foreclosure, there is a huge abundance of 'excess horses.' It is not a good time to be in the horse business, but should get better with the reduced price of fuel, which caused the spike in hay prices.

But, otherwise I agree with Siggy. I didn't renew with PFHA this year. No point, since there are no shows and the magazine is so tiny now. Maybe things will improve, but I don't see how adding diagonals to our shows helps market our horses to the gaited community in the U.S. Trotting horses are a dime a dozen. Are Pasos gaited or not?

motorgypsy

04-05-2009, 01:37 AM

First of all I really think paso finos in general will increase in numbers and popularity as baby boomers realize that 50 years of riding jumping horses and qh's leave the body a bit battered and while they may still be able to do this for short periods of time, those who really just love to ride and love to ride at a gait faster than a walk and those who love horses with spirit and personality will find the breed and love it. Most of us have other breeds also but ask us what we ride the most and it's the paso finos. So I don't fear for the breed's future unless we totally destroy the public's perception of what it is. THis is my main concern. There are so few diagonals that I have no problem with allowing them to share shows so to speak to gain publicity for them but we need to be sure it is understood that they are NOT paso finos. THey share ancestry but then so do QH's and TW's. We just need to be sure the public does not get confused about what the breed is and what it can do.

Now as far as the economy - oh yes things are very very bad in the horse world right now. A friend who breeds thoroughbreds just lost an engineering job. She did not breed this year. Our only foal for the last three years was the result of a fence failure and is a keeper anyway as she is our favorite mare's first filly. We will breed her again but because we want a colt from her also. We will breed when the economy picks up and we have three stallions who will become available on a very limited basis but this is NOT the time to be breeding much for sale unless you have a buyer already.

The other thing to remember is what happened to the Arabian horse. We don't want a repeat in paso finos. We want growth due to the horse owning public realizing that owning at least one paso fino is very beneficial and desireable. But they also need to understand that it's a lot easier to get a good and cheap QH than it is a good and cheap paso fino because you can pretty much count on any QH to trot - they may not jog decently and they may not lope but the person who buys it probably doesn'tknow a jog from a trot or a lope from a canter anyway. But with a paso fino if the horse isn't trained and doesn't know the cue to gait it may as well be a QH because who knows what gaits it's liable to do because so many paso finos have "so many gears and can dance so many different dances".

This is all very interesting considering how few diagonals there really are compared to the number of paso finos.

I wonder how many diagonals are registered in Colombia compared to paso finos? Anyone have the numbers???

SandyMM

04-05-2009, 02:09 AM

people are fixing, rather than buying. so some areas are doing better than othersAbsolutely true.
This is all very interesting considering how few diagonals there really are compared to the number of paso finos.
Yep - a tempest in a teapot.....
I wonder how many diagonals are registered in Colombia compared to paso finos? Anyone have the numbers??? Even more interesting... what is the 'using' horse that is the equivalent of the generic quarter(type) horse here?

motorgypsy

04-05-2009, 02:48 AM

From our experience living in Colombia for two years the "using horse" could be either gaited or trocha or trote for that matter - just not the show horses. They were kept for show. It's the same in Brazil according to a Brazilian farmer, cattle rancher, horse breeder and rice grower. They have the gaited mangalarga marchador and they have some native trotting horses and they use both on the farm as well as 4 wheelers, 4 wheel drive and motorcycles. But the farms who show horses don't "use" their show horses to work cattle or for the kids to play on. But I'm sure this varies from farm to farm depending on how many horses they have and how many they need to work the farm.

We did get a lot of culls in the US when paso fino horses first were imported but when the Colombian and Puerto Rican and other places who raised paso finos realized what a lucrative market the US was we started to get people in the US who knew the good ones from the culls and now that we can watch Colombian shows on the internet they can't hide their best from us. Although I have to say that when we lived there it was the popular opinion among our Colombian friends that Colombia exported the best of everything they had and kept the culls for themselves. Not necessarily true with paso finos though. I wonder if they still feel that way today??

But we have to consider that what a Colombian or Puerto Rican native breeder might consider a cull might be exactly what the US market wants. The US market in general is NOT enamored of the fino horse. They want a universal "good riding horse" that is a smooth gaited horse that can be shown at least in local allbreed shows, that gaits correctly but has a decent range of gait. In other words they don't want a horse that trots or hard paces when asked to speed up from a very slow corto. They also want something that looks nice, that is the size they want and is willing but well behaved. Of cour they want this for $500 but it's up to all of us to convince them that this type of horse cannot be produced for $500. They'll be lucky to find one for $5000 even in this economy except in a hardship sale. So the markets are different and allowances must be made for this. OF course there is a paso fino show market that has the high dollar horses in it but this is NOT the majority and care must be taken that the quality of the paso finos sold to homes for whom showing is secondary must also be very good.

Siggy

04-05-2009, 07:09 PM

I have spent the last few evenings speaking with other breeders, within this breed and the other breeds that I am involved with.

A few things that have been touched on here still have my attention.

1 is that a few members wanted unity and felt the need to be inclusive of the diagonals. That in itself is odd, a few does not speak to unity, majority is certainly more towards unity than a few.

2nd is that to be historically accurate and respectful of heritage we should be inclusive because we recognize horses from both countries. Nowhere does it say that PFOBA (now PFHA) was based on the entire Colombian Criollo, our breed standards are pretty distinctive and truely only describe the Colombian bred horses that perform the Paso Fino modality, there is no reason to include the other modalities. Nowhere does it say that an organization can not be exclusive in what it represents without insulting the heritage, it simply means that PFHA has chosen a portion of the Colombian Criollo to repesent.

3rd is the lack of loyalty and confidence in the association that represents the breed here. There seem to be so many within the association that have their own smaller agendas and this is tearing apart the foundation of the organization. There seems to be a lot of tire spinning with little or no forward motion because numerous groups are engaging each tire but in all different directions.

So then I toured the forums and discussion areas to see what people are saying.:biggrin:

One forum is having a discussion at great length but like within the association it seems to be a huge wealth of opinions but no direction and no real answers.

Another one seems to have decided to attack a large portion of the breed because they dont see them doing anything that they feel is important. They made snide comments and poked fun at a group of people that dont really even have representation within the diagonals and the comments seemed to have no relevance to the thread:confused:.
They were able to supply the current status of PFHAs stand on the pointed diagonals at the show that started this thread.

Another forum has organized groups and planned events that will hopefully be recognized within PFHA and have started a grass roots movement of people and things to participate in.

The last one is a flood and flurry of reporting of events, and tremendous advertising and marketing of all things Colombian, plus all organizations and events.

So again, much of everything is very disjointed and does not lead towards the growth of association and the well being of the breed, the breeders, trainers or owners.

So those are just observations, it is not meant to point fingers or create turmoil.

Perhaps by identifying things we can organize to work towards strengthening those that are positive and fixing those that are not.

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 03:11 AM

Lori, the white rule goes way beyond white in to the nostrils. It includes body spots and height of white on legs.

I am very aware of that. I was just giving a couple of examples

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 03:19 AM

Siggy

04-06-2009, 03:28 AM

I am speaking about the current PFHA membership and what the decision to bring in diagonals. Perhaps those felt alienated prior to this event, but currently I would like to move in the direction of rebuilding and strengthening PFHA. :D

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 03:35 AM

Trotting horses are a dime a dozen. Are Pasos gaited or not? No the (Trote/Trocha horses) are not a dime a dozen! And, they are a naturally gaited horse, gait is exhibited at birth, just like a Paso FINO. These so called dime a dozen horses, how come they can sell for more than a Paso Fino? Have you even ridden one? Seen a young foal gaiting already?? Did you know that a pure Trocha horse is as smooth as a paso FINO horse and many can't tell the difference? Did you know that the Trote horse is not the same as a Trotting horse as there is no suspension. There are always two hoofs (opposing on the ground), therefore no bounce. The Galope is like being in a rocking chair...very comfortable. I feel sorry for your lack of knowledge.

Please no comments from the Peanut Gallery:(

Siggy

04-06-2009, 03:39 AM

So you feel that it is best to attack a lack of knowledge rather than educate. Your representation of your breed is not very helpful in these instances.

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 03:42 AM

We just need to be sure the public does not get confused about what the breed is and what it can do.

This is all very interesting considering how few diagonals there really are compared to the number of paso finos.

I wonder how many diagonals are registered in Colombia compared to paso finos? Anyone have the numbers???

Funny how people are so concerned about the public getting confused. I think it is because we are afraid we can't explain the difference! We American's are pretty smart aren't we? All the other countries that show all the modalities have figured out a way of explaining it to the masses:)

There are MORE diagonals registered in Colombia than Paso Finos. I don't have the exact number, you can get the numbers from Fedequinas.

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 03:55 AM

So you feel that it is best to attack a lack of knowledge rather than educate. Your representation of your breed is not very helpful in these instances. NO I DON"T,

Sorry - but It has been said over and over. It would be different if the comment came from someone who is new to the breed. When someone who claims to be a knowledgeable Paso person, makes those comments which was a "low blow" in my opinion, well I got ticked.

Siggy

04-06-2009, 04:11 AM

Just because someone has the type of Paso Fino as described by PFHA does NOT mean they are Paso people by your definition (someone that knows all modalities). Diagonals are not represented in the USA very well, believe it or not - this Paso Fino country extends far byond Florida so not everyone has what is available at your finger tips.

Try educating people, There are many that do not welcome the others in to the association that they feel was not meant for diagonals.

motorgypsy

04-06-2009, 04:49 AM

Lori I'm reminding you that I'm a big fan of the diagonals so please don't overlook that.

As far as being surprised that there are more diagonals registered in Colombia - considering the fact that paso finos and the diagonals are considered part of Colombian criollos and that trotting horses are by far more common than gaiting horses in any country's native horse population, I'm not a bit surprised by this. And considering the fact that there are more diagonals than square gaited native Colombian horses you can also see why US paso fino owners are concerned that there exists the possibility of losing square gaited horses altogether if breeding is allowed indescriiminately within all Colombian criollos. I'm NOT saying this is what this proposal is going to allow but that allowing diagonals to register and be shown PFHA produces the concern that that is the next proposal in the pipeline. And notice I said concern.

Now regarding the intelligence of the general horse owing public in the US, intelligence isn't the problem - it's knowledge. Colombians of course know about the diagonal and the square gaited criollos. They are their native horses. The US has a lot more people and a lot more people of extremely diverse background and with breed knowledge that tends to be limited to their breed of choice. We have a hard enough time explaining that our horses aren't in pain when they move their feet so fast and that noone stand around beating them to get them to move like that, let alone try to explain that trotting horses are being registered by PFHA. And please not that I'm not saying that's what is happening. I'm saying if things aren't worked out well this is what it will look like to people who see the diagonals at our shows. So this is a legitimate concern just as it would be a legitimate concern for the diagonal owners for their horses to be considered inferior ungaiting paso finos.

To be done right, a merger, which would of course open the lucrative US market to the Colombian diagonals, would let the general public and members of PFHA know clearly that there is no intention of cross breeding between the diagonals and the currently registered paso finos and that paso finos will still be expected to perform the four beat evenly timed gait they are famous for.

I have one additional question - how many paso fino Colombiano's are there currently in Colombia?

Serendipity

04-06-2009, 06:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy
Lori, the white rule goes way beyond white in to the nostrils. It includes body spots and height of white on legs.

I am very aware of that. I was just giving a couple of examples
__________________

exactly this is why i am not a fan of Confepaso, my #1 show mare has 2 much white on one leg 3 socks and a stocking, currently of the 10 Pasos i own 5 would not qualifiy do to to much white oh and not fino(as in classic fino,i perfer true going somewhere speed-IMHO) any of them, and i hardly call those flaws

and speaking of the heritage once again there are many breeds that claim the same heritage that are not lumped together, look at the USA breeds QH,Mustang,TWH,Morgan,Rocky's yes they have had other influneces but so have the pasos and though they are the US breed you do not see them all at a show because of heritage.

Lusitano and Andulian are in the Pasos bloodline are they also included in confepaso(maybe they are don't know)

and it is one thing to have a show like confepaso its kinda like a horse fair look at all the differant breeds,i can understand that a showy display of all the latin breeds. but the breed shows are a differant deal if im going to a Fjord show i expect to see just Fjords not every other pony draft

now i mean no disrespect, to me it is already hard enough to sell a Paso Fino when people ask why would i want a horse that does not go anywhere? or they are smallish are they just hyper ponies?

and of course the the country of origain does not have a problem telling them apart they are common there its like explaining TWH and QH and a good QH in a nice jog is a smooth ride.

PFHA should continue with the uniqueness of the breed that is the foundation, naturally smooth gaited,4 even beats (give or take)

and it is odvious that a trocha can be smooth and some judges can't tell the differance or won't by the placements of them, until this changes we are still in a heap of trouble, but those that know they are showing a trocha or trochay horse are as much at fault here because instead of promoting the best paso fino they can they choose to show this other and joke(so i've heard) that our judges can't tell the differance, when they could again educate us on what is and is not correct--again JMO

Siggy

04-06-2009, 03:25 PM

NO I DON"T,

Sorry - but It has been said over and over. It would be different if the comment came from someone who is new to the breed. When someone who claims to be a knowledgeable Paso person, makes those comments which was a "low blow" in my opinion, well I got ticked.

Talk about LOW BLOWS
loriperez wrote:
as far as the pleasure trail riders go - why should they care. I don't want them voting on issues relating to show procedures anyway. What do they know about showing? How can you vote on a subject you know nothing about?

You say here people DO KNOW, but elsewhere your opinion is that they do not know..

This is precisely the attitude that must be kept out of the office of PFHA:frown: A membership organization not a show organization.

Cindy

04-06-2009, 03:38 PM

This is the first time that I have ever heard that there are actually MORE diagonals in Colombia than there are laterals. So it makes me think, why is that not so anywhere else? There are not many in Puerto Rico and there are not many in the US. I don't know if there are any in Europe. I know that they have been in this country for years. I know know that I rode my first one about 15 years ago. And still they have just not caught on. So I ask myself, why? Just more food for thought.

Terry Wallace

04-06-2009, 03:48 PM

And still they have just not caught on. So I ask myself, why?

Just jumping in here...but what CarolU said does deserve some creedence for it IS TRUE. Yes...trotting horses (not specifically targeting ATTA horses) ARE a dime a dozen right now...I go to every sale I can, I look at horse marketing every day, and I can confirm that trotting horses of most every breed...are going cheaper than I've ever seen them sell for in my lifetime....its pennies on the dollar.

I can buy a horse that trots easily here for a couple hundred bucks, broke and ready to ride....and its sad!

Personally...I don't think CarolU was saying that specifically about T&G or ATTA horses....she is saying it about "trotters in general"...please correct me if I am wrong CarolU.

When I see the prices on T&G horses...YES, it makes me chuckle...because I don't think you would sell one here (in Colorado) and get those kind of prices....to me...T&G horses are still in "novelty stage" where I am...

I'd love to ride one, I'd love to try one....might even buy one...but not any time in the near future. I like GOOD horses of all breeds.

P.S...some of us "pleasure trail riders" also SHOW. Of course our regions out here are so broke-broke...we cannot afford ANY shows...or maybe ONE a year.....the rest of the time we just "pleasure ride"....but it doesn't mean we don't think about what is happening in our industry...

SandyMM

04-06-2009, 03:57 PM

There are MORE diagonals registered in Colombia than Paso Finos.Maybe it's harder to breed for the even four-beat gait once diagonals are introduced into bloodlines... Not impossible, but more diligence required. Since it has been said that cross-breeding between the diagonals and paso fino gaited horses is not common in order to 'breed true'.... I have to wonder why Fedequinas allows 5 years to determine gait...

If there are now more diagonals registered in Fedequinas than paso fino gaited horses... I have to wonder if Colombia isn't losing the genetics to breed this gait. And if that is a possibility, why _shouldn't_ we be looking to our own breeders and bloodlines that consistently produce the even four beat gait our registry/association describes and which the vast majority of Americans expect?

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 07:44 PM

Maybe it's harder to breed for the even four-beat gait once diagonals are introduced into bloodlines... Not impossible, but more diligence required. Since it has been said that cross-breeding between the diagonals and paso fino gaited horses is not common in order to 'breed true'.... I have to wonder why Fedequinas allows 5 years to determine gait...

If there are now more diagonals registered in Fedequinas than paso fino gaited horses... I have to wonder if Colombia isn't losing the genetics to breed this gait. And if that is a possibility, why _shouldn't_ we be looking to our own breeders and bloodlines that consistently produce the even four beat gait our registry/association describes and which the vast majority of Americans expect?

!@#E!@!@!!!! WHAT??? UGH...
This could not be more wrong - you are misinformed! There are way more naturally gaited Paso Finos in South America than here. WE HERE are having a problem with gait and it is not due to the Colombian's. In Colombia they pride themselves on the natural gait. You won't see champions winning in the ring that are not in gait like we have here! We here in the USA are practicing poor breeding pratices and causing more harm to our breed than any other country.

WOW Sorry Sandy but you are way off!

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 07:50 PM

Talk about LOW BLOWS

You say here people DO KNOW, but elsewhere your opinion is that they do not know..

This is precisely the attitude that must be kept out of the office of PFHA:frown: A membership organization not a show organization.

Oh Siggy...:( If you check back you will see I agreed with the person!

Siggy

04-06-2009, 07:59 PM

All I see Lori is your alienation of an entire group of people, the trail riders. And how their input is not welcome by those that show.

I have to say that PFHA needs to revisit this entire diagonal situation and put it to membership so that the true count and opinion of members can be known.

I dont know if the gene pool is large enough yet, but I would be all for closing the books to imported horses in order for the Association to get control of what the breed is here. And POSSIBLY revisiting the idea of opening the books at a later date if more genetics are needed.

It has been said that there is NO American Paso Fino. Lets see what happens to the Colombian Criollo horse with no American Paso Fino market. No trail riders, no pleasure riders that make up 80% of the owners here.

This way the Colombian Criollo horses can be shown and promoted as a distinct breed under PART of the breed as well. With the desire to preserve and protect the history and heritage, I think they would have been further ahead to create a Colombian Criollo association here in the USA so that they could have all of the modalities.

Serendipity

04-06-2009, 09:50 PM

WE HERE are having a problem with gait and it is not due to the Colombian's. In Colombia they pride themselves on the natural gait. You won't see champions winning in the ring that are not in gait like we have here! We here in the USA are practicing poor breeding pratices and causing more harm to our breed than any other country.

then where did these horses come from and who is placing these horses? at Nat'ls most of the judges do not have thier roots here in USA many of our judges are from Columbia and Puerto Rico, i've been to 4 nat'ls so far and once once did i see a judge that was from usa that i can remember,

here would be a great Nat'l judge list in my opionion---Cindy,Betsy,Beth,Robin,and mike shaffer or mr lockheart, maybe ed smith, i respect all of these judges opinion and respect them even if i don't agree with them all the time

the Paso fino was bases on PPR to begin with then the columbian horses came over, if gait was so prized why did they not send over more of their better horses to share w/ the us and build the populaty of naturally gaited, i have again heard many times that it was a big joke that we silly americans did not no gait and one judge(not sure if at the time) even showed a pure trocha horse and won Nat'l, then joked about it on how we did not know enough to tell the differance,I have showed under this judge before and now refuse to go to a show that he is judgeing because of this along w/ the fact that does not like excess white on a horse either

again there is the lack of education granted this is a latin base breed and when you go to a PF show you see a lot of Latins there(i am friends or aquancist with many and have respect for them and there knowledge) but there are still some that push the non naturally gaited horses in the ring,

why do they do this????????? thats the real question if we knocked out ever horses that did not do the paso fino gait then people would stop bring them and people would not be breeding to them

so why bring a horse to the show that has gaiting trouble or tends to go more diaganal, your right we need to be more educated on this and it as to start somewhere from with in the ring seem a good place to start

Serendipity

04-06-2009, 09:58 PM

and you do want the opinion of the trail rider they are the one stuck explaining to the masses about the breed they are the ones selling and promoting ever ride, you don't encounter other breed at a breed show and we all know that the spectarers at are show are well rather dismal to say the least.

so it is the trail rider that is our biggest promoter, i do both and trail ride more than i show but love showing more than trail riding ,i show at a lot of local shows

but you know i've never gone to a PF show and been asked what kind of horses is that??? I have been asked that at local or trail rides

i've offten had to explain that not all paso finos are like whats on RFDTV,or super hyper, i've even been asked are you sure thats a paso its not acting stupid????? I proudly tell them yes and that i show her and she competes well and ask if they'd like a ride

so i'd not knock the trail riders that would be like cutting off both legs and maybe both arms, there the once out in the public the most

Lori Perez

04-06-2009, 11:31 PM

Sorry but you won't drag me into your agrument. Sounds like you have an axe to grind to me....

I never blamed the judges here, I actually feel most of them do the best they can with the rules they have to work with.

Serendipity

04-07-2009, 12:32 AM

Sounds like you have an axe to grind to me....

not so, its really a true question,i also agree most judges do the best with whats there. but the fact remain you stated that we in the US have messed up the gait(so how did that happen, considering pasos are not from this contry so we got them from somewhere) and that columbia prides itself on that same gait but we got alot of horses from Columbia and PR and now the gaits not good?????

my thoughts are simple i want the paso to gait correctly and smoothing, i would like it to keep its unquie qualities that make it so to do this you must work to maintain what is correct and to have people that represent its breed to the best in and out of the ring, if people bring the best gait to a show its easy if not well than those that are there to place these horses are who we depend on to keep the breed at the standard. and that incompasses all aspects with natually smooth being to the for front

I never blamed the judges here, I actually feel most of them do the best they can

and so it is like most every thing else, a few hurt the rest, i agree most do a good job,

and also people in glass houses should not throw stones, you've made many attacks and unkind words to many in this thread,

and to think all this on 6 horses going to a PF show, yes it is true a few can cause many much trouble

GregM

04-07-2009, 02:42 AM

Just one question. Which one of these statements is more accurate?

"There are MORE diagonals registered in Colombia than Paso Finos."

Or

"There are way more naturally gaited Paso Finos in South America than here."

or am I missing something?

SandyMM

04-07-2009, 04:46 AM

Think what you want, Lori.... You have the right to your opinions as I have the right to mine.... I would, however, be interested in documented facts.

Lori Perez

04-07-2009, 04:50 AM

Greg- Actually both are true.

1- There are more diagonal pasos registered because there are Trote & Galope, Trocha & Galope and Pure Trocha. That is three modalities. Paso Fino is just one of the four. So yes, there are more registered.

2- Maybe I should clarify that...There are more Paso Finos in the show ring that are representing the Paso modality in the proper gait. In recent times in the USA yes we are messing up big time. Due to our own indiscriminate breeding practices, embryo transfers being done on average mares (in addition breeding them to horses that do not gait properly or even compliment the mare). This has happened over a period of years and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

(Nicole not going to haggle with you since I am so vicious and it is obvious that you have big issues with anything that doesnt have Puerto Rican Bloodlines??) I have not attacked anyone on this forum in regards to this topic - have only tried to explain and defend as I have been doing for the last 6 years or more. I have a lot invested in the Paso Fino breed and believe me I certainly don't want to see anything happen to our association. But I am also going to defend all the modalities as they have been there way before you, I or anyone else was a member of the PFHA. It all goes back to if you want to belong to Confepaso as an association or not...apparently PFHA wants to belong and maintain both votes.

Nicole - if you want the facts, simply go to www.fedequinas.org to find out for yourself. I have no reason to lie about it. Click on the red mail box. Type your question it.

SandyMM

04-07-2009, 05:04 AM

It all goes back to if you want to belong to Confepaso as an association or not...apparently PFHA wants to belong and maintain both votes.I would love to see an individual (not regional) vote taken on how many members actually are interested in being a member of Confepaso...

GregM

04-07-2009, 01:06 PM

So based on this statement -

"There are more Paso Finos in the show ring that are representing the Paso modality in the proper gait."

what would you say is the percentage of Paso Fino's that show in South America versus those that do not?

Terry Wallace

04-07-2009, 05:49 PM

I would love to see an individual (not regional) vote taken on how many members actually are interested in being a member of Confepaso...

I'd like to see that too. At this time...I cannot vote FOR it. The reason is...Confepaso has some archaic "rules" that the laws/rules of genetics can now clear up.

Some of the Confepaso rules I think are excellent (sway back, size, asymmetry of the body, fallen crests, faults that are not allowed that are truly conformational faults) and then they have the "excessive white" rule that makes absolutely no sense in this day and age. Same thing with glass eyes or blue eyes...that is not a weakness.
Penalizing horses for some long ago thought that "white markings are bad or weak"...when it is GREY horses who can truly suffer from just being "grey" with 8 out of 10 possibly developing melanoma in their life time...well...THAT is a weakness and has a big genetic possibility of happening. Why would grey horses be "just fine" and white markings of certain sizes/types be excluded? That type of "rule" makes no sense to me so of course I cannot get behind that with my vote.

Don't they also have an exclusion on "albino" horses?
There are NO albino horses...so what exactly are they excluding...how does Confepaso define "albino"? Are they realy talking about double dilutes? Are they talking about "wW" genetic white horses?
These type of rules that make no sense...or are based on old fashioned belief instead of scientific FACT are what I have a real problem with.

I wonder how many people here on the BB following this thread...would vote FOR Confepaso? I cannot. I'd like to see a time where I could...but that would take rule revisions....

Cindy

04-07-2009, 07:23 PM

Just because they have rules about white on horses doesn't mean that those rules are based on some archaic principals that have been proven incorrect. Perhaps they just don't like for their breed to have excessive white. Many dog breed have rules about the dogs having white in certain places or too much in those places. Has nothing to do with the soundness of the animal. They just don't want those dogs to be that color. And there is nothing worng with that.

Terry Wallace

04-07-2009, 07:56 PM

I have to wait for the explanation as to WHY those rules are there...now it could be that its regarded as a weakness, or it could be that Confepaso prefers a solid colored horse... I cannot say. I had been told it was because excessive white was thought to be a weakness like it was once thought about white hooves for example...

If its because they just don't like white and has no other real basis...then NO...I could never vote for an assoc that thinks that way. Its too "excluding"... its sort of lke "Paso racism" for lack of a better term....IMO

Personally..I DO think something is wrong with that way of thinking. Its far too non-inclusive and based soley on color...which makes no sense to me. All colors of Paso Fino are "allowed" (here in the USA..with the PFHA)...so why are white markings, or pintos, or double dilutes excluded? I'd like to hear the reasoning.
These aren't dogs with only a "certain color" or certain amount of color accepted. These are all colors of horses readily accepted by our registry. The dog comparison don't work for me:biggrin:

I cannot say why these rules exist in Confepaso. The other rules make far more sense, they protect the breed standard... and then some rules make NO sense at all...JMO

Another thing that occurs to me...is people may not want to vote for Confepaso rules because they know their "show horse" could never pass a pre-pista (white markings not withstanding) due to conformational faults that PFHA readily accepts on a "show horse".

It almost seems like Confepaso and PFHA need to "meet in the middle" somewhere and do some re-writing of rules.
JMO

Serendipity

04-07-2009, 08:00 PM

useing that that is where i believe some of the conflict is, when you read a dog breed standard its there written what is and what is not to much white. and your right there is nothing wrong with this its a known

when you read our rule book it says Paso finos come in all colors including pinto. but it does not say that horses shown and only be solid or minimal white, and it is also assumed that if you can compete and show at PFHA and at the National level doing well that that same horse should also do well internationally at confepaso, I to do not understand the white thing but would have zero issue with it if that was not one of our color choises or the our rule book stated white must not exceed X

you have big issues with anything that doesnt have Puerto Rican Bloodlines??
oh and to clear the air i'm not soley PPR, My fave stallion to breed my mares to is pure Columbian I have 2 offspring that yes have PR on the bottom but full Columbian on top, I perfer and 50/50 mix or a 3/4 ppr mare bred to this full Columbian stallion-

i'm speaking for equality and if we are to include all the pasos under an umberella then include them All and in every color they come in

Cindy

04-07-2009, 08:38 PM

So, that the registry of the United States, the PFHA, chose to allow white, we should tell the Colombians and Puerto Ricans that they must now allow white because that is how WE want it? Sounds a bit like the tail wagging the dog to me. I don't know why the countries of origin do not allow white but I most certainly would not make assumptions as to why they wanted their breed to look a certain way. It is most certainly not for me to dictate. Calling racism is a bit extreme don't you think. A breed can write it's breed standard however they want it to be. As for why we allow white when the countries of orign did not, I can only guess but my guess would be that many of the original importers of horses from Puerto Rico had pintos. Even though pintos were not at that time allowed to show in Puerto Rico to my understanding. But they liked them just like they liked the Paso Fino "modality" from Colombia so they wanted to breed in this country horses of all colors who performed the four beat lateral gait. And it is as simple as that. They were not hiding things. They were just breeing what they liked. Just like all the other countries have done.

Just a thought but I am willing to bet that the breeders of Andalusians in Andalusia at the time of the origin of the Paso Fino breed were most likely not terribly thrilled with their breed being mutted with those funny gaited horses. (And, yes, I know that Andalusians used to have gait in their breed. Has nothing to do with the point that I am making.) By the way, do Andalusians allow white markings?

Serendipity

04-07-2009, 09:05 PM

By the way, do Andalusians allow white markings?

thats it make me drag of the HUGE book "horses of the world" ;)
andalusian colors mostly grey then bay,chestnut and roan, minimal markings no excess white

Terry Wallace

04-07-2009, 09:08 PM

I don't know why the countries of origin do not allow white but I most certainly would not make assumptions as to why they wanted their breed to look a certain way. Um...that is WHY I'm asking...and of course people will make assumptions ... we will want to know "WHY"...and if its a valid reason or not.

we should tell the Colombians and Puerto Ricans that they must now allow white because that is how WE want it? Hehehe... that all depends on how bad they would like to include everyone....if they don't want to, then that is up to them....I won't lose sleep over it...but I sure would not support an assoc that could not tell me WHY those rules exist.

Calling racism is a bit extreme don't you think. "Extreme"? What would you have me call it? Its rather like COLOR discrimination no? Well....it IS to me. Would it feel "less extreme" to you if I just say "Horse Color Discrimination" then? :D

I would agree with you that its likely breeders of Andalusians (in general) would not be thrilled at the aspect...but then...some of them MUST have been no?
Perhaps a few wanted to see what kind of hybrid vigor they could get from "outside blood".
There are always "purists" that want things their way or NO way. I would expect that at the time the cross was done...it was mostly for gait...yep I'm assuming that...since the two breeds of horses are very like type to begin with and somebody was after gait...that you would breed gait to gait to try to get "gait"...Pure ASSUMPTION on my part..but then I try to reason things out as best I can...

Andalusians and white markings? Wellll..its been a good 25 years since I was a member of the Andy assoc...and now that they have merged with Lusitanos...I really don't know what they are allowing these days. I have seen single dilutes with Andy (well..make that IALHA) papers that would not have existed when I was a member. You see, genetics and the study of horses in general has changed a LOT of those old ARCHAIC ideas and thoughts! So assoc have also made changes...just like the AQHA now accepts more white than ever before! Thats because they were better EDUCATED and made some changes from the "good ole days"... and gee whiz....darn if they didn't give their MEMBERS what the members wanted!:biggrin:

All I can say is the old basic "money talks and BS walks"
If one wants to stay "in the money" they best please those ones who hold the purse strings..um...the members!

This is exactly why I'd like to see a vote of the MEMBERS and not just the regions....I'd like to know the feelings of those members opposed to Confepaso.... I'd like to know if they are the same reasons I have or not... I'd like to be better educated on why certain Confepaso rules exist...
Is that too much to ask? I think not.....:grayhorse:

Siggy

04-07-2009, 09:17 PM

Well actually if I am not mistaken. It is ONLY Colombia that did not allow pinto and high white early on.
I believe there were actually pinto champions in the 1940s in Puerto Rico

Serendipity

04-07-2009, 09:24 PM

lusitano--- again comes in gray,brown,bay or chesnut-----little or no white markings

SandyMM

04-07-2009, 09:24 PM

we should tell the Colombians and Puerto Ricans that they must now allow white because that is how WE want it? Many of the PPR Pasos I've known and seen pix of had a _lot_ of white.... Maybe it isn't the color so much as what the appearance of color may mean? But then, Don Danilo was a dilute, had a huge blaze, and a fairly high stocking....

Terry Wallace

04-07-2009, 09:35 PM

lusitano--- again comes in gray,brown,bay or chesnut-----little or no white markings

I think your book is outdated....there are dilute Lusitanos with papers now...buckskins, palominos, etc...

here it is right off their website:
MARKINGS
SECTION 10. Purebred Andalusian Color

The IALHA uses, but is not constrained to use, the following color definitions for Purebred Andalusians:

A. Grey: (Torca, Ruca) a mixture of white hair with brown or black hair on dark skin. The grey horse is born a darker color and turns grey at varying rates. With or without black points (mane, tail, legs.)

B. Bay: (Castana, Castanha) a body color ranging from light reddish brown, to nearly black, accompanied by black points including the mane, tail and legs.

C. Black: a body color that is completely black with no brown at flanks, or on head.

D. Black Bay: A body color that is mostly black with brown to gold usually on flanks and muzzle. Usually lightens in summer, may be solid black in winter.

E. Brown: a body color which is completely medium to dark brown (not red) without black points. May require submission of photos.

F. Chestnut: a reddish brown color without black points, may have light points (sorrel.)

G. Buckskin: a body color that is golden in color accompanied by black points.

H. Dun: any of a range of diluted body colors (Yellow Dun, Red Dun) with or without brown points. Requires submission of photos.

I. Palomino: a golden yellow color with same or lighter mane and tail. No black or brown points.

J. Cremelo (Isabella): a diluted cream color with same or lighter colored mane and tail. Blue eyes. May require submission of photos.

K. Perlino: a diluted cream color with darker points. Blue eyes. May require submission of photos.

L. Roan: a mixture of dark and white hairs with a dark colored head. Not a grey. This color is very rare in this breed and often confused with grey. Requires submission of photos.

M. Other colors are rare or believed non-existent in the purebred Andalusian but may be acceptable with proper documentation including parentage verification and photos. Any possible confusion of any of the above colors will require submission of photos.

NOW>>>>Where do you suppose those DILUTE colors came from ??? hehehehhehe!!!!!

Serendipity

04-07-2009, 09:49 PM

okay what about markings? those are all solid colors dilute or not(except roan), what about the markings?

my books copyright is 1997 so yes some things have changes guess its time to head to Books a Million,YEA

Cindy

04-07-2009, 09:58 PM

I think your book is outdated....there are dilute Lusitanos with papers now...buckskins, palominos, etc...

here it is right off their website:
MARKINGS
SECTION 10. Purebred Andalusian Color

The IALHA uses, but is not constrained to use, the following color definitions for Purebred Andalusians:

A. Grey: (Torca, Ruca) a mixture of white hair with brown or black hair on dark skin. The grey horse is born a darker color and turns grey at varying rates. With or without black points (mane, tail, legs.)

B. Bay: (Castana, Castanha) a body color ranging from light reddish brown, to nearly black, accompanied by black points including the mane, tail and legs.

C. Black: a body color that is completely black with no brown at flanks, or on head.

D. Black Bay: A body color that is mostly black with brown to gold usually on flanks and muzzle. Usually lightens in summer, may be solid black in winter.

E. Brown: a body color which is completely medium to dark brown (not red) without black points. May require submission of photos.

F. Chestnut: a reddish brown color without black points, may have light points (sorrel.)

G. Buckskin: a body color that is golden in color accompanied by black points.

H. Dun: any of a range of diluted body colors (Yellow Dun, Red Dun) with or without brown points. Requires submission of photos.

I. Palomino: a golden yellow color with same or lighter mane and tail. No black or brown points.

J. Cremelo (Isabella): a diluted cream color with same or lighter colored mane and tail. Blue eyes. May require submission of photos.

K. Perlino: a diluted cream color with darker points. Blue eyes. May require submission of photos.

L. Roan: a mixture of dark and white hairs with a dark colored head. Not a grey. This color is very rare in this breed and often confused with grey. Requires submission of photos.

M. Other colors are rare or believed non-existent in the purebred Andalusian but may be acceptable with proper documentation including parentage verification and photos. Any possible confusion of any of the above colors will require submission of photos.

NOW>>>>Where do you suppose those DILUTE colors came from ??? hehehehhehe!!!!!

So no pinto. And where DID those dilutes come from?LOL

Cindy

04-07-2009, 09:59 PM

Well actually if I am not mistaken. It is ONLY Colombia that did not allow pinto and high white early on.
I believe there were actually pinto champions in the 1940s in Puerto Rico

Will ask my favorite PR resource if he shows up this week. LOL

Siggy

04-07-2009, 10:34 PM

ask him about a bella forma horse called Primavera or similar. There was also pisaflores and llamarada I believe. This comes from the old pasopedigree archives.

Serendipity

04-07-2009, 10:58 PM

he still has not come????? LOL.

I have heard the heavy markings and pinto came in from the spanish Jennet not sure if true,

but other than rumer is it possible to truely figure it out??? there where a lot of PR horses that had a lot of white but so did some columbian Coral is a good example of pure columbian w/ a lot of chrome

Cindy

04-07-2009, 11:35 PM

No he hasn't. :mecry:Colombia has quite a bit of sabino but no tobiano

SandyMM

04-08-2009, 12:32 AM

and rabicano...

motorgypsy

04-08-2009, 03:29 AM

If I recall correctly there are a great deal of pinto paso finos in Puerto Rico but not a lot of REGISTERED pinto paso finos in Puerto Rico. If you look at their current show champions they may have more chrome than the Colombian champions but I don't recall seeing any pintos in the magazines on PPR show horses.

FYI It has also been posted on here that a number of the pinto paso finos as well as some solid colored paso finos from Puerto have fabricated pedigrees and the owners of these horses confessed on this forum to fabricating them when they didn't know the parentage back when paso finos were first imported to the US from Puerto Rico so they are part of today's PFHA paso finos.

Our registered Colombian imported mare has only one generation on her pedigree on her mother's side. This doesn't mean that line was not registered but it does mean it 's an unknown in the US.

But we can be pretty sure that noone would bother to import and fabricate a pedigree for a horse they didn't feel was worthy of being called a paso fino because these people lived in Puerto Rico, showed horses in Puerto Rico and knew what a paso fino was.

But to feel that tobiano paso finos are inferior today is ridiculous because tobiano is a dominant gene and all one has to do is continue to breed to very good paso finos to produce tobianos who gait as well as are just as good in every other way as the solids. I personally prefer solids as the white splashes interfere with my ability to see the horse move and to see the shape of the horse. But that is a personal preference, not an opinion that a tobiano who is dyed solid and wins is not just as good a paso fino as a true solid. If it wins dyed solid, it should win with white spots. Color does not make the horse. It is a personal preference.

Serendipity

04-08-2009, 03:11 PM

i find it easier to watch gait on a pinto w/ four white stocking than and soild w/ one or two.

i like when they go over the board and you can count the steps, this is what i spend a lot of time doing that here riding on the road counting steps,

Terry Wallace

04-08-2009, 03:34 PM

ask him about a bella forma horse called Primavera or similar.

Here she is (this photo given to me by Dr. Laracuente):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/PrimaveraPPR1958ChampLarWEB.jpg

What about this horse "Apache"? A lot of pintos trace to him..I do not know if he was shown:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/twobarwpaso/ApachephotoWEB.jpg

Siggy

04-08-2009, 03:56 PM

Thank you Terry, it was the 50s not 40s but that is the horse.

I thought the Apache that was most prominant here in the USA was the mare named Apache. I am pretty sure that is the stallion photo but I am not really familiar it.

Serendipity

04-08-2009, 04:01 PM

I have a mare w/ Apache in her background, the stallion it also has (pepe) after it, Apache (pepe)

Carol Nelson

04-08-2009, 05:37 PM

Oh my gosh, Primavera is GORGEOUS!

Cindy

04-08-2009, 11:35 PM

OK, I talked to my Puerto Rican resource and he said that, yes, lots of white and pinto were always shown in Puerto Rico until the Colombian influence. With the Colombian influence came the registry called Abiertos back in the 1980's which did not allow the white. The quote from him was; "monkey see monkey do." And they did not allow pintos.

SandyMM

04-09-2009, 03:25 AM

With the Colombian influence came the registry called Abiertos back in the 1980's which did not allow the white. ... Is there any PPR influence/consideration/accommodation in Confepaso rules at all or is everybody there on the 'all/only Colombian' train...?

Serendipity

04-09-2009, 03:22 PM

wow thanks Cindy, great info

but that raises many more question,

is Confepaso just for Columbian horses or those that just fit columbian standards?

Terry Wallace

04-09-2009, 03:37 PM

The quote from him was; "monkey see monkey do." And they did not allow pintos.

Hehehe!! and people wonder why excessive white rules would be "questioned"!!

KUDOS to that guy for telling it like it IS!!!!! "cause it IS
"monkey business" as far as I'm concerned!!!:biggrin:

GERAL1030

04-21-2009, 10:19 PM

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-22-2009, 12:43 AM

Welcome Geral1030!

I am very excited to hear about Don Pepe coming back. He is drop dead georgeous and looks like he is soooo fun to ride. (I've been dying dying dying to experience his galope.)

Lori Perez

04-23-2009, 01:41 AM

Im new to this topic But definately not to the trot and galop horses.

I would like to include in this topic since the topic is that history was made, that at spectrum international we have made it possible to have the mare and stallions in different classes and the mares on friday and stallions on saturday.
It has been a long and very bumpy road but we are almost there and i ask for all those that have been with us all this time to hang on just a little further. Many people oppose to having our horses at the shows, they argue that there money is used to have other horses that are not "PASO FINO" show. But thats not true we too pay stall, class, and memberships. They say not to like them because they are rough horses. Lets not forget that a NORTH AMERICAN won a metal in the 2008 Youth mundial on a trot and galop horse. So the horse must not have been at all that rough.

I thank you lori for all the great work you have done with and for these horses . I would also like to add that the 16 time champion Don pepe returns to miami on thursday.

Thank you
Yessenia Galvis

Hi Yessenia: It is so good to hear from you. Please tell your father hello. I am sure he is happy to have Don Pepe back home in the USA. We will all be so happy to see him in the ring at Spectrum. Yes, it has been a long road, there is still a lot of mis-understanding, and lack of knowledge of the Paso horse. I believe most people that love the Paso horses are very proud of all the youth riders including Debbie who won at the Mundial. You are a good example (youth) of what our breed depends on for the future of the Paso horse. Take care, Lori

GERAL1030

04-23-2009, 01:35 PM

Lori,

Yes there is still alot of mis-understandings many people dont know or ignore the fact that the trot and galop horses are part of the paso fino breed.
And yes we are all vey exhited that DON PEPE is coming back and probably staying for GOOD :) He will be at our farm on saturday.

Are you guys taking trot to spectrum??

SandyMM

04-23-2009, 02:07 PM

trot and galop horses are part of the paso fino breed.I understood "Paso Fino" was considered just one of the modalities along with TyG and Trocha in the Colombian Pasos as opposed to the name of the breed... What is the breed called in Colombia by Colombians?

Lori Perez

04-24-2009, 05:13 AM

I understood "Paso Fino" was considered just one of the modalities along with TyG and Trocha in the Colombian Pasos as opposed to the name of the breed... What is the breed called in Colombia by Colombians?

She meant to say paso horse.

SandyMM

04-24-2009, 01:47 PM

What do Colombians call their Paso horse breed?

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-25-2009, 12:38 AM

....really Sandy?

GERAL1030

04-25-2009, 02:25 AM

We call it CABALLO DE PASO FINO PURO COLOMBIANO, we call it pure paso fino colombian horse. This includes CLASSIC FINO ONLY we dont have pleasure nor performance. Trot and galop, trocha and trocha and galop. this all fall under the paso fino puro colombiano.

SandyMM: why do you question the trot and galop so much

Helene

04-25-2009, 03:36 AM

"CLASSIC FINO ONLY, we have no pleasure or performance"????????? are the only ones recognized as Paso Finos in Colombia, along with trotting and galopping Pasos?
I don't understand. I thought I had Paso Finos? None of mine do the classic fino....
I am really, genuinely confused now. I guess I don't need to care whether my Pasos are not recognized in Colombia as long as they are recognized here.

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-25-2009, 03:41 AM

The Americans invented performance and pleasure classes.
However the fino class of colombia is different than here.

SandyMM

04-25-2009, 05:20 AM

How is it that there is so much confusion over what the breed is called in Colombia? It's no wonder there's so much confusion here...

According to Fedequinas.... "Paso Fino Colombiano" is one of the recognized gaits/modalities....

1. The promotion, improvement, development and fortification of all the tie activities related with the promotion, nationwide and worldwide, of the “Caballo Criollo Colombiano de Paso”, as the best horse of saddle in the world, in its different Criollo airs or gaits: the Paso Fino Colombiano (Colombian Paso Fino), Trote y Galope Colombianos (Colombian trot and gallop), Trocha Pura Colombiana (Colombian pure trocha), Trocha y Galope Colombianos (Colombian trocha and gallop).

I am interested in the diagonal gaits in so far as they impact the Paso Fino horse in the United States.... It is difficult enough to figure out what each country of origin is promoting when there seems to be so much confusion....

GERAL1030

04-25-2009, 11:47 PM

Helene , its not that they are not recognized for example the reserve national performance champion was FUERA DE CONCURSO in colombia as a classic fino mare. And here she is a performance mare.

Its not that in colombia we dont recognize the performance or pleasure as fino, because if when they go over the sounding board you hear taca taca taca then they are. We just dont believe that the paso fino should be separated to 3 classes. we Just have one CLASSIC FINO CLASS. to ba a fino class it does not need to be pushed to be so largo like pleasure nor so PARQUIADO like they want to call it here.

SandyMM
Its not much the confusion. Its not that colombia wants to promote one horse more then the other.. In colombia we have FINO, TROT & GALOP, TROCHA, TROCHA & GALOP we promote them all equally. Here in the USA Its the Classic Fino, performance and pleasure and now we are trying to open the doors for trot and galop horses. just like in puerto rico.

GERAL1030

04-25-2009, 11:48 PM

HELENE, The mare im talking about is la LLAMARADA

Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire

04-28-2009, 03:32 AM

News from ATTA

Dear Members & Friends: Please read the latest update below regarding the issuance of Certificates by PFHA. We also want to encourage everyone in the Ocala area to come out this weekend and support the Southern Region PFHA show which is being held at the Livestock Pavilion.
Our next E-news will contain information regarding upcoming shows such as Spectrum, 2009 and the Spring Gaited Classic. REMEMBER IF YOU WANT YOUR EVENT INFORMATION SENT OUT TO OVER 2,500 HORSE LOVERS YOU MUST SUBMIT ALL THE DETAILS TO US! Thank you for your continued support. - Lori Perez
PFHA CERTIFICATES OF VALIDATION FOR COMPETITION
PFHA has approved the changes to the proposal to the diagonals that was approved in January of 2009. The Certificate of Validation that PFHA approved is for purposes of competition only. This means that if a member of ATTA wants to participate in PFHA sanctioned classes for Trote y Galope, Trocha and Trocha y Galope, you must request a certificate from PFHA.
The process is to fill out an application where you will provide a copy of the registration of ATTA. The fee is $125 dollars which was determined & set by the PFHA board. The certificate will have a number for each horse. The certificate will also have the name of the registry where the horse is registered at. This certificate for the diagonals is also available to International Associations approved by PFHA. ATTA is an approved registry with PFHA. THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OF YOUR ATTA REGISTRATION. PFHA has also grand fathered the horses that competed in the past Ocala, & Miami shows and the upcoming Spectrum Int'l Show. If the horses that competed in those diagonals classes or will compete at Spectrum, who wish to show at the PFHA National show, they must request the certificate before July 1, 2009, to receive the points earned in those shows. PFHA will offer the national classes based on the entries that are in by the August 31, 2009 date.
ATTA encourages you to get your certificate. Another point, if you have shown a horse in the diagonals classes without a registration in the past, you must get your horse registered with ATTA, so that you can apply for the PFHA certificate of validation.

Still have a question?....regarding the above:
How to get a horse registered with ATTA? Submit email to [email protected] ([email protected]). Questions for horses that are already registered with ATTA or other International Registries? Please contact PFHA directly. Please visit their website at www.pfha.org (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1102561435796&s=619&e=001QfSjbtUUx5zHOzEcFy9fDroTUsKDI6Xf2gMrMTRzB7F5v KrwdS-EilXpmvGbbuJjNT3ZNkCA6Jh3ldEYzzNNBzPommUPHsTywgSsL WcThb8=) or call 813-719-7777.