Keeping Young Horses in Solitary Confinement

[Barbwire]

Is it or is it not important that horse babies (weanlings and older) be kept in with other adult horses so they learn how to behave? I am posting this question because I know of at least 2 people that keep their youngsters in solitary confinement. They never get to be with other horses.

I would like to show one person in particular the responses to this thread because she won't listen to me. I'm thinking perhaps I can make her see the light. (sigh)

[moonrize]

It is VERY important to a horse's social development to be raised WITH other horses. They learn how to accept discipline and to be a horse. Solitary confinement is not good for any horse, especially the babies who need to learn and grow with some "adult" supervision.

Would they leave their child locked in their room during the formative years? I think not.....

[cowboy ed]

what sally said.......

[Beth Worden]

Barbara: I got a Peruvian mare that had been raised like that once. She was so "human" imprinted the horse was a mess. My herd shunned her because she was so ignorant. She did not even know how to drink out of a creek! I had to cut a hole in the bottom of a bucket, weigh it down with rocks and put it in the creek. She would go to the creek and drink out of the bucket!!! If a horse dosen't interact with other horses during their formative years they are generally ill-mannered from lack of disapline.

[Carol Nelson]

This is a very important question, a tough one, and I'm anxious to see the answers to it. I am there right now. I have my colt, Devante, and he is coming on ten months old.
We were in the process of weaning him when he injured himself and had to be kept in a stall and quiet...as quiet as you can keep a young colt. So we naturally had to keep him with mama at least until he could maneuver around without injuring himself further because when you would remove her, he would race around and throw a fit. Since he wasn't showing any romantic interest in mama, vet recommended keeping them together as long as we could, at least until he healed up.
So he went into his daddy's big roomy stall in the new barn with mama in tow, and they still are separated several times a day as the run-in is divided by panels. But essentially he is still mostly with her.
My problem is now, when he is healed, what do I do with him? I don't want to geld him,...he is magnificent! He is showing indications of being better than his daddy.
He does have a "stallion pen" that he can go into but he will not be with other horses...he will be alone, but the others will be able to come up within a few feet of him (we have them separated by a walkway). Will this be enough?
I do have an old QH gelding that he would be perfect with, but the problem is where to put the both of them that they won't be next to mares coming into heat. I'm in a real quandry about this...
I said if we do put him into his stallion pen...he will need lots of "toys" and his daily turnout time in the arena...as he will get bored easily.

Will just add here that his daddy, Rojo Tejas, was separated as a yearling and pretty much went on the show circuit, and it doesn't seem to have hurt him any...I think a lot of people separate their colts at an early age with no disastrous results.

[Beth Worden]

Carol: I used to keep my stallion with another stallion - his son. I had no problems and they kept one another company. That is what worked for me.

[Carol Nelson]

Ok, Beth, they will be immediately across from each other...not in together but adjacent to one another. He will be surrounded by the other horses, just not in with them. That is how we've kept his daddy all these years, and its been wonderful. Red can still call his mares to him...they just aren't in together.

[Beth Worden]

Here's another suggestion. Several folks I know who keep studs use jenny mules for companionship. And believe me, nothing puts manners on a young stud better than a jenny mule.

[Blameitonbrio]

***section removed to start new thread ****

Barbara, I agree that solitary confinement will drive any social animal nuts and if one is doing it to a youngster, it can shape neurotic behaviors. I am speaking of experience with dogs not horses. But social animals need each other to develop and practice and learn behaviors needed to get along.

[cowboy ed]

carol, do you have another colt about the same age? it is best to put the young boys together so they can play and learn how to be horses. sounds like you waited too long to wean him, 10 months old? the longer you wait, the worse it is on them.

mares in heat nearby are not a problem if you have them separated by two fences. all my pastures have lanes between them and i have no problems with mares in the next pasture over from the colts.

[Barbwire]

Suppose you had a 6-8 month old colt that had been kept alone since weaning and you wanted to put him in with other horses. The other two horses you have are a 10 year old gelding, and a teen aged mare. The mare keeps the gelding in line without being mean about it.

What would you do in this situation? Would you put the colt in with both first, or one at a time? Which one would you put him in with first if you were doing it one at a time?

[Beth Worden]

Put him in with the mare (boss horse) first. Is it a big area? I had those little confined paddocks for introduction. The mare will accept him because he shoud submit real quickly. A smart youngster sticks tight to the alpha horse - even if the alpha horse can be nasty to him. If the alpha horse accepts him then the gelding has no choice.

[Edurne]

would they be planning a field breeding?

[Barbwire]

Nope, the baby is a gelding.

[Edurne]

I am a firm believer in babies being brought up in a mixed age herd. I see the difference in behaviour ......the babies are calm, they sleep, they play, but they also don't go so crazy as they have the older horses to watch for signals and boundaries. I love the way babies are brought up at Mr. F's with a great herd leader,and usually a retired mare, a couple of geldings and so on. They are easy to handle and so sweet. When they introduce the colts to the geldings field usually it is to put them in with the dominent gelding first and then transfer to the larger herd.

[Linda Y]

Very, very important.
I had a filly who was confined like that. When she was put in with my horses, the first time the alpha horse looked crosswise at her she ran through the fence. She was totally terrified of the other horses, had no 'social' skills and didn't know herd dynamics. It took her years to learn. I still have her, and she still has her moments of not knowing quite what to do.

[Terry Wallace]

Solitary confinement is the worst possible scenario for a young herd animal. They don't learn how to be a "horse", which leads to them not being able to get along with other horses. Horses were not meant to be alone any more than they were meant to be stalled (confined to a small area).

I put young colts with young colts, and the same goes for fillies. If I only have one foal born in a year, I used to go buy them a $125.00 BLM same sex weanling for company. If I have a yearling sibling, the weanling goes right in with the yearling (same sex). I don't ever keep horses under the age of three in solitary confinement. They need this formative time to learn their limits, learn manners, learn to play...learn to "dish it out" and to "take it" from herd mates. In short...to learn to be a horse.

What I have seen happen, (this was with QH weanlings fitted for halter class) is that they get "very needy" for human companionship, they won't stand tied alone, they have an absolute fit...they fear other horses, they get rather like an over-imprinted foal, and seem to be unable to find any happiness when alone...so they forever bang feed troughs, making noise...seeking attention.

When riding time comes, they have to learn how to be in a group of horses without having a fit, how to stand tied at the trailer without pawing a hole to China, how to be QUIET...and stop the constant neighing for attention....

Bet most of us have seen a horse that acts just like that, a human-spoiled horse... ;-) A horse without close horse "friends".

[CarolU]

I have to agree with all the above...I think horses of every age prefer to live with a herd (it is their NATURAL environment) and you'll end up with some socialization problems if they don't. Some horses, like stallions, might have to be alone of necessity, but even they are better off in a herd situation if it can be done.

Young horses, and colts especially, really need to have the space and other youngsters to run and play with. Play is a big part of their young life - imagine a child growing up without others or toys and you'll get an idea of the depravity. And having an adult around to keep them in line is an important part of training.

To answer Jeany's question, I give horses a month to socialize over a fence. Then I do controlled introduction (I'd probably halter your gelding on a long line) and introduce and see how it goes. If it goes well, I'd unhalter and supervise. Remember that some ear pinning and leg lifting is establishing WHO is in charge and needs to happen - so, unless things get really violent, I'd leave them together until they work it out.

Things to do first though is make sure there is no place one horse can corner or trap another - like in a stall or small coral. Make sure there are two entrances/exits from everything until you know how they'll do. Chances are your old gelding will just move them around, but some horses (usually the second in pecking order horse) takes their position very seriously and really charges a new horse. If this happens, only put them together while you can watch until they sort it out.

[Cindy]

Terry, I agree with what you say about horses that are kept confined. But, I also see the exact same problems in later life with horses that were never stalled or taught to be away from the herd when young. As a trainer what I have found is that the young horses should have the proper balance of stall time, handling and pasture time with other horses. With my own horses, I stall them when they are weaned and this is when I halter break them and teach them to lead, tie, lunge, everything but saddle training. Of course I handle them while they are with the mothers but I do not usually put a halter on them unless I have some that need corrective trimming or some kind of medical treatment.

I usually do this for a couple months and then they are put out to pasture with other horses to learn to be a horse. I have found that with this type of treatment, they learn the best of both worlds. I have had horses to train that were pastured all their lives and handled very little and they have all those bad habits that you describe because they have only learned to be horses and have not learned to be, let's call it "human" horses. Being tied or in a stall or in a trailer are not natural things for horses to do.

I have seen very bad result from young colts not being socialized with other horses. In fact, the only colts that I have ever had that were difficult horses were this way because of a lack of socialization with other horses. They were kept isolated from the time they were weaned from their mothers. One of them was very mean and dangerous and I do not think he would have been that way if he had had a normal upbringing.

[motorgypsy]

AMENto all of this.

We boarded at a barn that frequently bred thoroughbreds and they were weaned and separated from the herd at three months. The colts were kept alone. They were NASTY boys. No disciple.

Brilliant had to be separated because of his hip fracture so we had a 20 X 20 canopy that we put a roundpen under. We divided the rounpen into 1/3 2/3 and put his mom and our mini mare in one side (she was recouperating from an injury) and him in the 1/3 side. Both had sun and shade. He had lots of toys and loved to aggravate his mom through the bars. He was nine months old. When he was recovered we put him in a larger area adjacent to the other horses and then finally in with his sister. Once the solstice passed and we started getting more light we moved him in with dad who is still a stallion. He is not gelded either. They did fine and recently we moved SloughP, our boss gelding in with both of them and our mini colt goes in with them also. They have a great time playing.

So yes your boy could go in with dad very likely without problems. They know their own kids. Your stallion would be boss - but our stallion will actually let Brilliant eat with him after he eats for about five minutes and is no longer starving.

We actually felt that Brilliant was safer with dad than the gelding because SloughP is more dominant, larger and pushier than dad.

But we do see the need for constant human socialization also because with the bad weather and injuries we haven't had as much time to socialize these babies as we did with Arwen and they are more difficult and less far along in their "people" skills than she was at the same age.

[Terri]

I don't know much about horse development, but when the mare we have first came here as a 2yr old filly she didn't seem to know where "her space" ended and everything else began. She would charge over things, including the sheep, me, objects just because it was between her and where she wanted to be. I never saw her go around things. She also always had her ears pinned and was just plain scary. After a month or two of living with Mico that changed drastically. He would never hurt her, but would make her move where he wanted her to. He also never tolerated her crashing into him. Her owner also had a really hard time teaching her to pick up her feet. She would bring Mico into the stall with her while she worked on that lesson. She is a different horse today. She hardly ever pins her ears. She picks up her feet nicely and respects space (unless she is in heat, but that is another story). A lot of her improvement does have to do with training, but that training would have been alot harder without Mico's help.
But I suspect you have to becareful what older horse you put out with a young one. Mico has always been a great Babysitter. Even as a stallion his old owner would put the weanlings with him because he would never hurt them but would teach them how to behave. I think it is just like people, some adults know how to strike the perfect balance between kindness and discipline, others are abusive and some let the kids walk all over them. A weanling would have Rio totally "cowed" in about 10 minutes.

I let my horses be horses the only time they see me is feed time and the once a month time where i give them a quick shower and every other month to deworm...

they start dealing with me when they are almost 2.

[reuben T]

a horse that grows up running with a herd learns herd social skills, and is easy to train by natural horsemanship methods. The few I've come across that were isolated have been hard to train, they don't know how to respond.

[GeorgeGuns]

Okay, I reiterate all advice said, lol!

Encantador lives with Medias a gelding who keeps him very much inline - Encantador still foal faces him!!!

Bri lives in his own pen, but can touch noses with Copper, and Mouse if she ever figures out that he is a stallion.

If I had kept Rio stud (slap me now for saying that) he would have gone in with Medias and Encantador at least for a time. Rio grew up with an all mare band though, and yes he has incredible manners, even for a gelding!

Carol - one good way to keep a confined horse is with "sniffing" contact with others. You probably can quite safely put your colt right next to Red, seeing as how its his son, he'll be nice. If his confinement is temprorary, I wouldn't stress about it too much. When its time for the colt to breed, why not turn him out with an experienced mare that he will breed to, and she can finish his education?