Intergrating Horses

[Blameitonbrio]

I had posted my question on Barbara's thread on solitary confinement. But my horses were not raised in solitary confinement, so I thought it better to start another thread.

My question: how do you go about intergrating new horses? We now have Marisa (nearly three-year-old PF filly) and Extasis (ten-month-old soon-to-be PF gelding) at home now. They are half siblings and grew up in the same herd. They know the rules. Soon, we will be bringing Nisha (22-year-old Arabian mare) and Mack (6-year-old TWH gelding and boss of his herd at boarding barn). I would like to eventually pasture the girls together and the guys together. I worry because Extasis is much smaller that Mack. Is that something to worry about, and if so, at what age, size could I put them together? This might be a horse-person no-brainer, but remember with whom you are dealing here! :question

[Terry Wallace]

If the area (pasture) is fairly large...I'd put them all together. Why do you want to separate them by sex when two are geldings?

I would introduce the two young ones to the two olders ones across a fence for a couple weeks, but I would put them all together eventually.

Mature horses and young horses have different dietary needs. The ten month old should get a "growing" ration. You will need separate feeding stations, one you can close the ten month old in at feed time, so the other three don't rob his feed and run him off.

At times other than feeding, I'd have them all together. Here I keep a group of five, two geldings and three mares, ages 3 to 11 in the main holding pen. Then I have two, two year old colts together, two fillies together, and two stallions together..one is almost 4 and the other almost 5.

[CarolU]

Jeany, I answered you there, but will move that answer here.

To answer Jeany's question, I give horses a month to socialize over a fence. Then I do controlled introduction (I'd probably halter your gelding on a long line) and introduce and see how it goes. If it goes well, I'd unhalter and supervise. Remember that some ear pinning and leg lifting is establishing WHO is in charge and needs to happen - so, unless things get really violent, I'd leave them together until they work it out.

Things to do first though is make sure there is no place one horse can corner or trap another - like in a stall or small coral. Make sure there are two entrances/exits from everything until you know how they'll do. Chances are your old gelding will just move them around, but some horses (usually the second in pecking order horse) takes their position very seriously and really charges a new horse. If this happens, only put them together while you can watch until they sort it out.

[Blameitonbrio]

If the area (pasture) is fairly large...I'd put them all together. Why do you want to separate them by sex when two are geldings?


You know, I don't have a good reason for that to that other than that is that way it was done at the barns we have boarded at. I suppose at a boarding barn, it is as good a way to divide them as any, but with only four, I don't need to do that. I have heard people say that sometimes they have trouble with gelding and mares together. Then again, these were boarding barns with a lot more variables. I would rather have them all together.

One thing I did when I used to foster dogs for rescue (until my pack told me they had had enough) was to crate the dogs next to each other and give them separate outside times. I never put them in two adjacent fenced areas, as that would encourage fence fighting in dogs. Somehow, having the fence between them for a restraint causes some dogs to let loose on each other. This can escalate to the point they cannot be turned out together without fur flying. Apparently, they can throw some pretty nasty insults through chain link! This experience has made me worry about introducing the horses, hence my questions.

I thought that I could stall Mack and Extasis next to each other too, so they can get to know each other slowly that way. Right now, I don't think we have enough area fenced to put them all in together unless they know each other well. Of course, that is easy enough to fix: a trip to Southern States for more fence supplies!

[Blameitonbrio]

If I let them socialize over a fence, it will be electric. Is that of any use? Perhaps I should arrange the round pen panels into two small areas for introductions, so they can sniff without fear of being zapped.

We plan on wooden fences, but like the grass pasture and riding ring and HOUSE, that's in the future!

[stella]

Jeany, I know you'll probably be feeding them separately in their new barn, at least the babies that get more, but since you mentioned Mack was the herd boss at the boarding barn, I think it'd be better not to mix him with the mares AND this colt(soon to be gelding)at his age. Geldings DO tend to be possessive of mares- they are still males in thinking- and while it may not tend to be much of a problem with the less dominant ones, it often is with the dominant ones.

Being "misery loves company," Mack would rather have SOME company than none, he's still a herd animal, so being with the colt as a yearling should work OK, but having these girls to "defend" - you didnt say if the mare was part of his herd already, but if so- he will be her chivalrous defender, esp in "new territory"-
The other possibility would be keep the older ones separate, from the younger ones, once the boy is gelded....wait til he's 2coming 3 or so, has more size and weight, before trying all together.....and Mack will be older and more mellowed in his new place. Somehow, as they get to the MID twenties, their status and desire to seek top status wanes, a younger horse takes over, too.

[CarolU]

Jeany, keeping mares and geldings together is not a problem - and may never present itself as a problem - if the geldings don't start acting study when a mare comes in heat. Then it's only a problem if more then one gelding acts study, they'll fight and that can catch mares inbetween. You'll just have to watch to see how yours do. I've had Baby and Trooper together since Trooper was weaned and not a drop of trouble...but can't have Diablo around any mare. I put Buddy out with Zar and Rosie when I got him for Zar to teach him manners...and that was fine for the summer until he started playing too rough so I moved him into the gelding pen with Diablo and Santiago. There are no hard/fast rules. Horses are individuals. It may be that Extasis starts playing too rough for Marissa, and it may be that they get along forever together. You'll just have to see.

But yes, I'd fence as much pasture for them as you can. Why keep them in and feed and clean up any more poop then you have to?

[Terry Wallace]

Jeany it is beneficial to let them socialize over a fence. My fences have an electric top wire.

[CarolU]

BTW - I do agree with something Stella mentioned here...Once you have your barn done, I'd teach them all to go in their own stall to get fed seperately. If you can, lock them in until they are done eating, although it's not a bad idea to field feed a round bale of grass hay if you can get one. Horses are grazers and meant to feed 24/7.

By seperating them at feeding time, each horse learns it is not 'fighting' for it's food and can eat at a leisurely rate. This reduces stress and virtually eleminates the chance for choke. It also lets you know and regulate what each horse is eating and drinking and you'll know instantly when one is off its feed.

This is also my favorite time of the day...I love to listen to the horses eat...it's like all contentment while they're munching away.

[LynnG]

You can let the various pairs get socialized by themselves for awhile and see the dynamics of who likes who and their resulting behavior, and hopefully from there have them all together eventually. ET likes to be social...he's good at "weasling", so should get along with all as long there is not a real aggressive natured horse. I'm sure he will be very interested and intrigued with Mack as another male horse and one he thinks he may be able to horse around with. Marisa probably will be more cautious socializing...try her with Nisha first as that could be a mother role model for her as she was close to her mom. If you have a real aggressive horse, expecially one wearing shoes...that one I would keep more separated by a fence ... and let the others be social butterfiles. Horses do like company, especially when raised in a herd environment which ET and Marisa have. IF Mack and Nisha have good social skills, they will teach them to Marisa and ET. If they are aggressive, they will teach that. And ET likes to be social and also play, so he would be the one to watch out for that he doesn't get hurt. Nisha may end up with two young'ns to look up to her as their new mom. Need to have a black Lab that likes to play and be nuzzled by a 4 legged horse...

[Blameitonbrio]

That's good Terry...I didn't know if they would socialize over an electric fence or if it would cause problems with negative associations. Good thing, 'cause our eventual wood fences will have electric wire too, since Mack is a beaver.

They do go into their stalls to eat dinner and stay all night. We are doing that for the discipline and routine for us and them. Our older horses are used to that, and I know the Pasos were used to eating in their stalls, so that has worked out well. They know their stalls, and they know they want to check and see if the others left food in their stalls if they get a chance too! You should see how the Pasos look at me if I am a little late in the routine, and they have only been here a couple of weeks!

Stella, I was thinking the same thing about letting Extasis get some size before letting him and Mack have extended time together. That's why I mentioned Mack is a herd boss. Nisha (Arabian mare) is not in his pasture herd; however, they are stalled next to each other at night. So, he could feel possive of her.

I think that letting them socialize over a fence will give me a lot of information on how they are going to get along and let them get to know each other.

Carol, what are some characteristic of stud-y behavior? I know some, but I am sure there are lots of postures that I have no idea what they mean. I am asking so that I can have a greater understanding of what to look for when we intergrate, but also to determine if I need to tell my vet to hurry out here for Extasis' "brain surgery." :shock:

[halfmoonfino]

Congrats on getting your babies home!

First of all, size has nothing to do with it. Pitty, who is, as everyone knows, only 13hh, has never gotten hurt in a herd battle. Smaller horses often have the advantage of being quick-moving, fast, and able to turn on a dime. But there again, it depends on the horse.

For me, putting herds together is all about attitude. I've both watched and helped place horses in herds for several years now, and I've learned a lot from observation. For example, our guys' herd is very low-key. There is a boss, but he never imposes his authority. everything is fine because he gets to eat and drink first, so the harmony is kept. The rest of the horses have to duke it out amongst themselves for their rank. The barn manager has been careful to put the most well-behaved, good-natured horses in their field. That way the peace is not disrupted. A few weeks ago a new mare was brought into the herd, but as she was very sour and unable to buddy up with anyone, she was moved to a new herd. Everyone gets along famously because there's a great "buddy" system, and anyone who doesn't have a "buddy" will find a friend in Pitty (the mares especially have a fondness for him). Some people believe in separating mares and geldings, but Pitty has always been kept with mares and done wonderfully. What can I say? The ladies love him. In our pasture there are 4 geldings and 3 mares, but everyone respects each others' spaces, etc...and none of the boys know what mares are REALLY for. ;-) As Carol said, if you have a stud muffin, you may need to keep him separated from the girls!

Sometimes if you have a super dominant horse, it's best to give him a "job". I think dominant geldings will sometimes do better with a mare or filly to protect than with another gelding, because testosterone tension can be created. I've also seen mares that can't be with other mares because they get so screamy and annoyed with each other. The best way to determine what horses should go where is to match them up based on their personality. What does your gut tell you about who to put where? Then, as Carol said, introduce them over a fence where they can sniff, snort, buck, whatever. In a few days time they'll let you know whether or not they can get along. Since Nisha is older, you might consider putting her in with the calmer of the two young Pasos, and let Mack handle the more rambunctious one. Have you thought about putting everyone in the same paddock? Sometimes that works well because everybody knows each other, and can therefore be handled together without fear of any "outbursts".

It's not so much of a science as it is an art. You'll get a feel for who needs to be together, and time will show you how things work out. Best of luck, and don't stress about it!

[CarolU]

Jeany, you'll KNOW when it's time to get the "brain surgery!" LOL He'll drop and start trying to mount the mares, call to them in a low stallion voice...the SECOND he shows any sign, get the vet there! Too many "Sorpresa's" for just this reason! I've seen colts as young as 7-9 months act study, so your time is approaching fast. In fact, I'd plan on SOON anyway...best to get it done before fly season starts.

[motorgypsy]

One gelding with mares is fine but two can be trouble.

We've seen many geldings fight over mares at our many boarding barns and several of the boys got hurt fighting over the girls.

Size doesn't matter if they are in big pasture and you can stand out there with them with a big jacket to flap if there is any problem. Yes they will socialize over electric. Electric is far better than board fence. Our guys will take down a board fence in a minute and eat it too. They don't fool with the electric and they don't crash it.

We've boarded at about eight barns and the ones who separated the geldings from the mares said it was the smartest thing they've ever done. Many geldings are just "stallion wannabees" and when the mares come in season many will mount and some will actually breed with the mares.

[Blameitonbrio]

Jeany, you'll KNOW when it's time to get the "brain surgery!" LOL He'll drop and start trying to mount the mares, call to them in a low stallion voice...the SECOND he shows any sign, get the vet there! Too many "Sorpresa's" for just this reason! I've seen colts as young as 7-9 months act study, so your time is approaching fast. In fact, I'd plan on SOON anyway...best to get it done before fly season starts.

:lol: He is scheduled for next month. But if the weather warms back up, I am separating them just in case Marisa comes in season.

[Pam M]

I mix sexes and ages in my fields with no problems. I currently have a 25 y.o. gelding, a 7 y.o. gelding, a 2 y.o. gelding and an 8 mo. old filly pastured together. I like the way the older ones teach the younger ones. I had a 5 y.o. mare in with this group until it was time to wean the filly and it worked very well.

As for size, the 11.2 hh filly and the 16hh 2 y.o. gelding are the best of friends. The filly actually marks the gelding sometimes - he never damages a hair on her! Most of my guys do eat in stalls and they learn very quickly who belongs where. They're usually pretty good about waiting patiently to be let into their stall.

[Blameitonbrio]

You can let the various pairs get socialized by themselves for awhile and see the dynamics of who likes who and their resulting behavior, and hopefully from there have them all together eventually. ET likes to be social...he's good at "weasling", so should get along with all as long there is not a real aggressive natured horse. I'm sure he will be very interested and intrigued with Mack as another male horse and one he thinks he may be able to horse around with. Marisa probably will be more cautious socializing...try her with Nisha first as that could be a mother role model for her as she was close to her mom. If you have a real aggressive horse, expecially one wearing shoes...that one I would keep more separated by a fence ... and let the others be social butterfiles. Horses do like company, especially when raised in a herd environment which ET and Marisa have. IF Mack and Nisha have good social skills, they will teach them to Marisa and ET. If they are aggressive, they will teach that. And ET likes to be social and also play, so he would be the one to watch out for that he doesn't get hurt. Nisha may end up with two young'ns to look up to her as their new mom. Need to have a black Lab that likes to play and be nuzzled by a 4 legged horse...

I think you are right ET or Extasis (we call him Brio now -- cheesy name for a Paso, but the girls won and I kinda like it myself -- being a fancier of cheese) is a socializer. I remember how well he got along with all your herd, and going through all these replies, I am discerning what my real fear is: He will get to playing with Mack and get hurt. Remember how he played with Galactico and Flash and remember how much bigger Mack is? I think this might be like having a new baby and I am imagining the worst. When Grayson was a baby, we lived at the foot of Mt. Diable in CA, and I was sincerely afriad to leave the window open for fear a mountain lion would come in and get her! (They prescribe meds for that, but I didn't know that then.) Mack does like to play, and I am afraid of my baby getting hurt. (And I am afraid he might ask for it! :lol: )

These replies all help a great deal. I know to consider gender, dominance, pecking order, age, and to just take it easy and watch them. But, feel free to keep on sending insights!

And Lynn, I think you are right, Nisha is going to end up mothering these two. She and Marisa are a lot alike. I just hope that Mack will fit in too.

BTW, today Marisa is really ticked off at little brother. He needs a gelding to play with!

[CarolU]

Mack does like to play, and I am afraid of my baby getting hurt. (And I am afraid he might ask for it! :lol: )



No. Would a colt ever do ANYTHING to "ask for it"??

Like - "Hey, get up and PLAY with me!"
http://pasobaby.tripod.com/PasoFinos/BuddyBad.jpg

Or "Hey, Let's play Ball!"
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115Assistant_Trainer-med.jpg
Lately, Buddy has been pulling Santiago's tail and nipping his hocks - but I haven't managed to catch it camera. So when Santiago get's PQ'd at Buddy and charges him....I know he asked for it.

All I do anymore is be thankful he's not in with my mares! LOL

[Blameitonbrio]

LOL! Carol, that's exactly the kind of "asking for it" I see him doing!

Lynn's black dog Smut was Extasis' best friend. I was thinking that my black dogs would play with him. My Jubilee refuses to acknowledge the existence of the horses, and Jolie (my other black dog) has been bitten by the fence. So she is not too sure about the whole thing.

[Jane Hurl]

Jeany, mares don't go into heat because the weather warms up. They go into heat because the days get longer. Same as sheep!

[Blameitonbrio]

Ahh...What is the magic number of daylight hours?

[DebbieS]

We have about 12.5 daylight hours here now,and Princessa has come in already. My horses are starting to shed their winter coats now too (because of daylight hours) even though it was -18 Saturday morning when Listo was pumping blood out of his foot artery!!

We are warming up though (30s mostly) and will be in the 50s in a few days. Lots of mud to look forward to again :roll:

[DSDECKERT]

Bianca's in RAGING heat already...and it's only February. It's going to be a long season. I need to find me another vet to do the marble implant on her.

[Carol Nelson]

Deb...do you find in a warm climate, that your mares tend to cycle all year long? I notice here that mine continually cycle. So it might have more to do with the warm weather than we think. Now I don't know how fertile they would be in the winter months but they've sure gone through the motions all winter long. We've had basically no winter this year though.

[LynnG]

ET or Brio knew well enough not to mess with his daddy. He truly respected him, or feared him... or BOTH...but always had to say hello to him with his baby mouthing and non aggressive manner. I think Brio would learn fast when to respect and when to leave alone for the fear of being eaten alive. I think he would see Mack as Emperador, and show his respect and not cross the line real fast with him. He is going to pick on who he think he can and get away with it...his big sister Marisa for starters. poor girl. She is his role model now though. She may come into heat around Mack though...so watch out who gets together then.

Brio is a very social horse and being grown up in a herd environment since 1 week old, he knows what boundaries of behavior are acceptable.

[Blameitonbrio]

I forgot about how he would mouth submissively to his daddy! That was cute! You are right; he will probably see Mack as more like Emperador than Galatico or Flash.

Yes, poor Marisa. He is irritating her today. What a pest!

As for cycling, we do have a teensy bit longer daylight hours in the south during winter, so that might make a difference. Maybe down here, the temperature can affect cycles, as long as there is enough of the magic number of daylight hours.

[LynnG]

You may need to borrow Smut for a visit. I think they would both enjoy seeing, nuzzling and playing together. Smut wants the filly to play with him, but she doesn't. He goes and stands in front of her...and she smells him, but doesn't nuzzle or gently bite his leg or tail or push him like ET/Brio did. Smut misses that! The filly misses her play/stall mate, but is real excited by the new baby. I think she'll end up being the big sister playmate to the spring babies.

[CarolU]

You know Jeany, all you can do is try and see how it works. You may be able to keep all of them together, you may not. Just watch them and see how they do.

Yes, colts are JUST like teenage boys and are royal pains in the butts!!! Tease, tease, tease. Poor Marisa...maybe you should send her here to stay with Zar and Rosie. My 'girls' pen houses the most pampered Pasos on the planet. I'm SURE she could adapt to being another Princess. I seem to have a knack for this. LOL

[motorgypsy]

We have about two hours less sunlight on our farm - it's in a "holler" in the mountains - and our mares don't come in season nearly as often. We also haveno artificial light. When we boarded at a barn that kept the lights on until 11pm every night our girls cycles all winter though so lights on the property will cause them to come in also.

[Blameitonbrio]

Come to think of it, our Arabian mare, who has been in season regularly all winter, is boarded in a barn with artificial light.

Yikes! I need to run out to our new barn and turn off that light I have been keeping on for the Pasos!!!!

Ha Ha! Carol! Good one! Do you really think I should send Marisa out to stay with you and your girls? I would hate to put you out. :bsmile