Diagonals at spectrum

[GERAL1030]

I would like to inform all that we had a great presence of diagonals at this years Spectrum 2009

In the Trot stallions division we had 5 horses

1st place: DON PEPE
2nd place: ENIGMA DE SIBERIA
3rd place: CANTINERO DE LA ALMERIA
4th place: APOLO
5th place: DESAFIO DE LA ALMERIA

Mares division 4 mares

1st place: SEDUCTORA DE LA KATRINA
2nd place: TORMENTA DE LA PROMESA
3rd place: ISIS DE SANTA ROSA
4th place: PANDORA DE LA LUISA


In Trocha we had 5 participants, the most we have ever had.

1st place:IMAGEN DE BLANQUITA BLANCA
2nd place: FANTASMA DE RABANAL
3rd place: BOREUS GL
4th place: TOBI
* Tequila

We even had horses participate in pre-spectrum

Trot & Galop open class
had 4 enties

And the trocha open class
had 4 entries


Congrats to all the winners!!!!!!!! :D

__________________________________________________ _______________

I would like to encourage everyone that has diagonals to come out and show your horses, we where able to make this happen, he are getting the mares and stallions in two separate classes when ever we have 3 entries in each. If we have enough we can divide the classes into Fillies - mares - colts - and stallions , and have championships. :):grayhorse:

[GERAL1030]

DON PEPE 2009 Spectrum international Champion

Stud Fee: 1,500
available all over the USA, Colombia & Puerto rico
www.lasjotaspasofino.com

We also have colts and fillies from DON PEPE under saddle for sale.
Please contact us. :D

[Serendipity]

congrats to the winners

but i mean no disrespect, but i still do not like diaganals at PFHA shows,were your classes totally seprate from the PFHA horses or mixed in?

[Pasolady]

Any youtube or videos of these classes, that we may see on line? I love the idea of co-sharing a show! I'm a lover of HORSES, the Paso Fino is my favorite, but I also love the TWH and the ASB (to ride and show) but I love all breeds and modality's. I look for the day when they once again combine the genders for the Grand National Champions (for the Paso Fino)...IMHO that is the only way to truly determine the BEST OF THE BEST.

I hope you show at a show near Atlanta or Macon or Columbus so that I may see your beautiful horses in person.

Congratulations to all who participated at the Spectrum!

Joni

[GERAL1030]

Serendipity, and everyone

I would like to invite you to a horse show in colombia. maybe the 2009 confepaso mundial. Only then you would understand and grow to love these horses. In colombia for example all our shows are of 3 or 4 days. One day dedicated to each modality. One day is Classic fino another day is Trot and galop another day is trocha and another day is trocha and galop. The show is always full, sometimes there are people who cant even get into the show grounds. And there is a show every weekend. Do you think it would be possible to ever have something like that here in the USA?? I sure do hope someday we have shows like this.
And its only going to happen if things change. I we add new things.

We just like eveyone else pay the same fee's the same for a class, the same for a stable. We are requiered to become members of PFHA and USEF. our horses are judge under the rules of PFHA & USEF.
We are now in the trying to get all our registrations validated by PFHA so that we can get horses to earn point and go to nationals. This is only apporting to better shows with more horses and more people, thats all.

Thank you
Las Jotas Paso Fino
Home of DON PEPE

[motorgypsy]

congratulations to the winners and owners of these beautiful horses.

First of all we love the diagonals, saw our first paso finos in Colombia when we lived there for two years and have no problem with PFHA allowing the diagonals to show in PFHA shows if the points go to ATTA. We would also love to attend a show in Colombia.

But the PFHA paso fino is not the same as the paso fino colombiano. It is not a Colombian horse. It is a combination of paso finos from many countries.

The diagonals are Colombian horses - Colombian national horses.

For PFHA to assist the spectacular Colombian diagonals in their attempt to attain popularity in the US by allowing them to have classes in PFHA shows is one thing. But to assume that paso finos owners have the same feeling toward the diagonals that they do toward their paso finos is quite another.

US citizens consider the Tennessee Walker and the Quarter Horse to be native American horses. They attend their shows in huge numbers and own them in huge numbers. They do not show them together just because they consider them both our native horses and because they have common ancestry and are part of our national identity - which they do. So many of us do not understand this need to add the diagonals to PFHA for any reason other than to popularize them and do not understand why they are even shown together in Colombia. This does not mean we are critical of your doing it. We just don't really understand why. If we tried to put Tennesse walker shows and QH shows on at the same time in the same facility it would be total chaos.

Mountain horses combine their shows but they are all gaited horses. The diagonals have a totally different modality.

So yes, having the diagonals perform in PFHA shows adds something different and interesting. But I think I am correct in saying however that most PFHA paso fino owners do not consider them a part of PFHA and see no reason for them to be a part of PFHA. And this does not in any way mean the diagonals are inferior. They are just different - very different - and breed shows in the US are shows of horses that are homogeneous in one or more ways and from the same registry. We have been told numerous times that diagonal breeders have no desire to breed to a paso fino. This means we are dealing with two completely different registries. Having one show with two completely different registries is not at all typical in the US and particularly when the modalities of the two registries are not even the same and the paso finos and the diagonals do not even look the same.

I hope this in some way explains why there is hostility toward this move by PFHA but the hostility is NOT toward the diagonals as horses, their ancestry, their value, their owners or their characteristics. The hostility is toward what appears to many to be an attempt to merge two totally disparate registries in a way that does not appear to many to have major benefit but to one of them.

We hope to see much more of the amazing diagonals and we also hope that they can stand on their own merit as they deserve to, rather than on the coat tails of PFHA or any other paso fino based registry. Until they are able to do so we look forward to their participation in classes at PFHA shows with the intent that they will be able to go out on their own in the future as both the diagonals and the paso fino breed expand in the US.

[GERAL1030]

Hi,

The reason we have these horses show together in colombia is because these horses go together. In order to make a trocha horse you combine a fino horses and a trot horse, and thats how you make trocha, thats how trocha started way back in the days. In order to undestand the reason why these horses need to be together with the fino there has to be alot of research done. Talk to trainer who have had the opportunity to train finos, and diagonals. And just like me you will find out that to a trainer once understood how to train a diagonal horse, a fino will be a piece of cake. My dad has been a horse trainer for 35 years, my grandfather is 72 and he has always been a trainer and till today still is. And when i talk to them to try to gain an understanding about the situation, because I didnt understand why these horses and the finos had shows together, i've undestood that you cant have one with out the other. There is sertain knowledge you obtain when you have both. I dont know if im explaining myself in a way you can undestand me.

I would love for someone with more knowledge about the subject to explain to you, possibly a trainer thats has trained both. And just like me you will understand the why of things.

Thank you
Yessenia Galvis
Las Jotas Paso Fino
Home Of DON PEPE

[Siggy]

interesting... everyone else says that the modalities are not bred together and that keeping the lines seperate is of utmost importance.

We understand the culture and how the breed is represented in Colombia, I think what is missing is that it is not understood how the breed developed here after importation and what the breed has come to represent here.. Here where the members should have a say about the direction of the breed within the association that was created by members.

Our association does not allow for nor does it recognize the diagonals. I dont think that it being thrust upon the members is going to improve relations between members of either organization or either breed in the USA.

I think that the diagonals should remain their own organization and do their own marketing and promotion along with their own shows. I personally dont believe that PFHA should be involving them while the growth of the breed as we know it here is foundering and struggling.

I am not against the diagonals, I just feel that they should remain on their own and go through their own trials and tribulations as the Paso Fino organization did here.

If a replica of the Colombian association and breed is wanted here, then it needs to be done on their own.

[pnalley]

GERAL1030,
Please check your private messages, I sent you one a few weeks ago.

[Serendipity]

and that is a big thing its columbian based what about all the PFFHA horses that have PPR in them or Cubin along w/ columbian

it is as if the adding the diagonals is futhermore pushing out the others I do not any just columbian blood, i like the PPR and Cubin bloodlines and there are things i can get from them that i can not get from a pure Columbian horse

the columbian influnce has not help the US paso fino in many ways, though a fino horse is great watch really who wants a riding horse that is going nowhere, we can't sell short step horses but to a select few and we are in constant debate over tight and quick vs a more natural way of going, the show wants tight and qiuck the rider wants a natually smooth ground covering horse, it should not take 20 min to get to the end of the driveway on a horse you are going to ridding on

but the other thing is in the US many are not able to have many horses there is not "this horse is for show and this one is for ridding" so you have a horse that needs to do both and whats happened is those few that can have both are ruining the breed with just tight and quick because they are only ones showing and they show the fino or tight and quick horses and not the ones that the rest of the US wants to ride so our breed goes stale no one wants to buy a go nowhere horse and when they see on that moves out as it should they wonder whats wrong with it

understanding the background is not enough understanding the history is not enough, when you go to Rome or many other places in the world you are to act as they are if you go to mexico you had better know some spanish but its like here in the US its the US that has to respect the history and not request the changes are for what we want why not give the US what it wants instead of saying it always has to fallow suit???

in columbia you have classes on diff days what if some one showed up with a PPR would it beable to compete, and is the goal to change the PFHA in to an only Columbian paso fino Reg. your are the columbians that are forcing the trot horses going to except enough change to allow not only the other modalitys but the other countrys that out US breed came from??

sorry off the soap box now

[motorgypsy]

Yes they were combined to create the modalities shown in Colombia today. They are Colombia's national horses. But paso fino and the diagonals are no longer being combined. IF the diagonal registry wishes to breed to paso finos all they have to do is open their registry to the breeding which I understand is actually possible. But as far as I have been informed the characteristics of the different modalities - in particular the diagonals vs the paso fino, have been set to the point where there is no longer any desire to breed the diagonals to the paso fino. Perhaps there are paso fino breeders who wish to go to the trocha horses to get more size and speed but I suspect that this is not the wishes of the majority of the paso fino owners in the US and in particular not the wish of the recreational paso fino owner.

Tennessee walking horses and quarter horses and morgans and several other breeds were all created from the same gene pool. They are no longer bred to each other because once the desired characteristics are achieved the registry is closed.

Tell me how many of today's diagonal breeders breed to registered paso finos? Why should they? What does the paso fino have to offer the diagonals? Yes the diagonals may offer speed of footfall and size but speed of footfall and size are also available within the already very diverse paso fino gene pool so why risk producing a lot of uneven 4 beat gaited horses who cannot do the even four beat or the diagonal gaits properly?

All the light breeds originated from the same gene pool so the argument could be made that they should all be show together. Well they are shown together in the US. In what is called an "allbreed" show. But PFHA shows are not allbreed shows. They are paso fino shows.

Colombians (and indeed I left part of my heart in Colombia) have been showing the even gaited and the diagonals together because Colombia is a relatively small country, these are their national horses and to them, they belong together simply because of origin. To paso fino owners born and raised in the US who are not of Colombian origin this does not make sense. This country is too large, with too many already related breeds to put together two who because of all the mixing from Puerto Rico and other countries, don't even share a common gene pool now.

Think about a horse person coming to a PFHA show for the first time, expecting to see the even four beat gait that they associate with the paso fino their friends ride and love. What do they see? Horses who do a beautiful carousel gait and horses who move their feet really really fast, go nowhere, in a soft trot gait. Confusing? I would say so.

SO long live the diagonals and may they prosper as they are spectacular amazing horses of great merit. But they are not paso finos regardless of ancestry and by common standards in the US, they don't belong in anything more than a loose confederation with PFHA to help them become better known in the US.

[GERAL1030]

First is first us COLOMBIANS have not forced the trot and galop horses here, theses horses have been here for many many years. And to tell you one thing most the people we have sold horses to and many of the people that have trot and galop horses have sold there horses to north american how just seem to fall in love with the breed as soon as they step a foot on them.
Im not saing USA's shows need to become like in colombia or like in PR or like Dominican republic, but there must be a reason why the shows in every country are good and here they are boring.. And if we are talking about not including classes besides the fino ones then lets eliminate trail, versatility, western pleasure, driving, country pleasure ect. I mean i have nothing against these classes i've sat down and enjoyed them. they are awsome to watch.

The trot and galop are already in, they are in the shows and people are liking them more and more everyday, They arent going anywhere.. and instead of people going against them, why not go to a farm where they have them, get on one and then decide if you like them or not! Youre welcome to come to mine and ride don pepe.

Thank you
Yessenia Galvis

[Siggy]

noone is saying they are forced here or that we dont like them. Some of us are saying we dont want them in OUR Paso Fino Horse Association. I stand by that statement. You have your own association, you should be doing your own shows, your own marketing and promotion, not using PFHA events or membership to further your horses.

Now I see that there is a debate and anger from ATTA members because Paso Fino Horse World (OUR magazine) is disallowing ATTA advertising and show results. Lets face it, we dont want to have to print your information to distribute to our members. This is NOT a magazine to promote the diagonals or the ATTA and their membership.

I understand that it is very difficult to form and promote a small and new association, but that is something that the diagonal members will have to struggle through just as the original Paso Fino owners did when the original Paso Fino association was formed.

PFHA's decision to include and allow diagonals without member vote or input was a huge mistake. If our membership continues to allow PFHA to slowly accept more diagonal involvement without membership input, that will be a bigger mistake.

It is nothing against the diagonals or their association, it is about what our association is and preserving that, please dont take it personally or as an attack on the diagonals. We are just saying they need to stay separate.

[GERAL1030]

Im not taking as an attack, But please do undestand that i am as well a paso fino owner. I have many paso finos here, in colombia and PR. And i dont see any problem if my fino horses compete in the same shows as my trot and galop horses.

[Siggy]

Then why can you not see that as a PFHA member, I DO have a problem.
This association was not developed for diagonals some of us do not want it changed.

Why cant your own association have shows and if it is so important you can have demo and non-point shows for fino horses?? That way PFHA members who dont want to compete other modalities dont have to attend but those that have all modalities have somewhere to go. WHY must you use PFHA events? I think it is time your own association venues for their members to support and leave this association to the members and the horses that it was originally created for, rather than changing it.

[Kerry W]

Siggy...this was not Colombia's doing. This was not ATTA's doing. OUR Board of Directors suspended OUR rules, by-laws and constitution to make this happen. Tell THEM how you feel.

[Siggy]

I NEVER said anything about Colombia. Please do NOT put words in my mouth. I responded to Gen's comments about the "mixing" of fino and trot in one post. The rest of my comments have been directed towards ATTA and not wanting diagonals at PFHA events.

Kerry, you must read my entire comments to be able to speak knowledgeably about MY comments.

I am part of a group that is indeed taking our concerns to PFHA, as well as investigating their right to do what they did as a non-profit, member based organization.

Since it was not ATTA's doing then they really need to not come to PFHA events, take a stand and let PFHA know that they are not interested in participating at PFHA events and that there is no need for PFHA to include diagonal classes.

[Kerry W]

You're right...it was Nicole that had the nasty tone toward Colombians. I just thought I'd combine the two to save time. Sort of like you reading other forums and posting that info as a weapon over here. Good luck in your endeavors.

[GERAL1030]

The thing is not weather PFHA wants or does not want diagonals at shows. The thing is that PFHA needs CONFEPASO, Confepaso is wants diagonals at PFHA shows. PFHA has the chooice to put diagonals in and get better shows or not to and stop counting with confepaso and for there shows to keep on going down the drain like they have been.
PFHA has to put them in if not someone else would open up an association that would make sohws with diagonals and finos, and PFHA will be over. PFHA has many rules that only make sense to them, for example go has the right to go into a championship. The past two winners of SPECTRUM both were excused from there class. The only horses that should go into championship should be 1st and 2nd.
PFHA has rules that people dont like, and another association WILL change and then PFHA will be nothing. This is also sometihng PFHA had to think about.

Stop making such a big deal out of it. We are paying the same that you are. We are paso fino owners as well as you.

[Serendipity]

first off i have nothing against columbia or the horses from there, a few of my fave stallions are pure columbian blood.but as the trot horses and confepaso are based as columbian i truely want to know how the other countrys(ppr,cubin for example) pasos will be excepted of are they to be fazed out? this seems to be swep under the rug everytime its asked and that can make people more standoffish that like horses from those areas pure or not because i'm sure very few paso in this country are pure one way or another as in pure columbian or pure PPR ect so you have a blend of blood

and the comment about taking out the specalty class if really fitting because has some of the show progress those classes are gaining less in popularty because the fino or tight and qiuck horses are going in those also so it like going to a show and seeing every class w/ exactly the same horses in them and those that are just getting started or want a more pleasure gaited horse feel pushed out yet again, it does seem in some cases those that are not on a fino moving horse are cast offs and unwelcom i dread that more than anthing

where as i believe most would like to see the classes where you saw very differant horses in each group fino,performance and pleasure and it would be a truelly amazing horse that could cross classes. the trotting horses are just one more thing that are going against the grain they are great horses and i have no problem w/ them being at the shows but do your classes on a diff day or time as a group like its own show.

and as many have said what really does confepaso do for pfha? it adds nothing new it does not allow the pleasure horse, its focus is also only fino and if your horse has to much white you are also not welcome- so i for one am not a confepaso fan as i have 11 horses here and not one will fino at all ever,they are all very well gaited(except the big trotting Holstiener) and lets see 4+ have to much white and i have yet to figure out what color has to do with the way a horse moves or gaited!!!???

so nasty tone no,confusion, exasperation,clarity, yes

why is it we must except the columbian standard over the others or how are you planning to combinethem all?

why must every show horse be tight and quick, whats wrong with the other ways of going or a more pleasure style gait?

and why is Color such a big deal pfha stated pasod come in every color,do the trocha and trot horses come in load chrome or pinto as in there show horse, and i many now times not when Don Danllo showed he was loadly marked?

are the trot horses longer gaited or are they also all tight and quick?

these are some questions i have, i'm sure i can come up w/ more, but making a trip to columbia or puerta rico will never happen and i ask lots of questions before i step foot in a stirup i don't just go around riding new breeds unless they offer what i want in all aspects i've found that with the paso fino so why look further for me

i will be curious to the anwers provided to my questions

[SandyMM]

The thing is that PFHA needs CONFEPASOWhy does PFHA need Confepaso?
What does Confepaso do for Pasos in this country?
What does Confepaso do for the rank and file member of PFHA or the thousands of Paso owners in this country?

I just don't see where continuing membership in Confepaso benefits the majority of American owners/breeders/riders.... I _do_ see where a return to the qualities which enamored most Americans early on - smooth gait, versatility, toughness, people friendly, etc. - would benefit the promotion of this breed here. I don't see where Confepaso promotes the Paso that the majority of Americans own and enjoy. To me, to embrace Confepaso is to turn away from some qualities that I enjoy about the Paso and to promote some traits I do not value.

I'm not one who thinks the Paso is for everyone, but the way the breed is headed - with a few exceptions, it's the right breed for fewer and fewer new owners.... and without new owners, promotion of the breed is turning in on itself and stagnating.

As to the diagonals, owners of these horses have stated that they would not cross them with Paso Fino gaited horses, so that gene pool is becoming more specialized and focused - as it should - but also why it should not be combined with the Paso Fino gaited horses. As someone earlier stated, many of the distinct American breeds ahve common origins, but are no longer considered the same breed. Once the characteristics are locked in, a breed should close its books and consider itself separate. If the diagonals are strong enough in distinctive characteristics and there is enough interest in them, they should be able to stand alone as a distinct breed.

PFHA needs to focus on identifying, promoting, and rewarding the Paso Fino gaited horse in this country. There is an enormous amount of work to be done.... Now seems an especially appropriate time to dig in and start focusing on what the majority of PFHA and former, disenfranchised members want - for PFHA to follow its own rulebook and emphasize the qualities of the horse many of us fell in love with... not what some other organization tells us we should value.....

[Siggy]

I am copying some notes from discussion in other areas - here are some thoughts that came up in the "chat" regarding this and some other topics recently.

Confepaso has nothing to do with this discussion.

Confepaso is an organization OF Paso Fino associations - it dictates IT"S guidlines and rules for events that IT organizes.

It does NOT dictate what each association does within it's own guidelines and rules except in the case of the seats that PFHA insists it should be allowed to keep (this is a mistake by PFHA - hogging 2 seats when there is an organization WILLING and ABKE to promote diagonals). Basically PFHA is being a dog in a mangers, they dont want to properly and fully promote diagonals (as they should not according to bylaws, rules etc) BUT they dont want to give up the seat (vote) that should belong to the diagonals.

Confepaso is the WORLD organization for competition standards. It is an organization that brings mutliple associations together under one set of guidelines to determine world champions. This is an effective tool for breeders and owners who want to compete, promote and sell at this level.
It's called MONEY. For those that do not want to compete at that level they can work within their own organization who has their own rules, standards etc that govern their own shows and classes.

The problem here is PFHA is TRYING to bow to the money and give those that show at the world level something here within our own organization but the rules etc describe the old style original family horse that many here fell in love with but now have no place (except in a recreational program) within our own association. WHY? Because the pleasure breeders are few and far between and spend very little $ as a whole, even though they make up a vast part of the breed. NO $, NO way to grow and promote the association.

PFHA had to have the fancy building, the big term deposits, the big fancy shows, the fancy CEO trukc etc etc etc but at the expense of promoting growth in all sectors of the breed. Now the money is drying up and they have no foundation to build on for growth and stability.
They grew to big (fancy) to fast, putting on airs and promoting the breed as exclusive and "rare". Specialty breeds and exotics seldom survive as a strong market.

[pasosx3]

Regarding Confepaso:



It does NOT dictate what each association does within it's own guidelines and rules except in the case of the seats that PFHA insists it should be allowed to keep (this is a mistake by PFHA - hogging 2 seats when there is an organization WILLING and ABKE to promote diagonals). Basically PFHA is being a dog in a mangers, they dont want to properly and fully promote diagonals (as they should not according to bylaws, rules etc) BUT they dont want to give up the seat (vote) that should belong to the diagonals.

Confepaso is the WORLD organization for competition standards. It is an organization that brings mutliple associations together under one set of guidelines to determine world champions. This is an effective tool for breeders and owners who want to compete, promote and sell at this level.



Siggy: BRAVA! BRAVA! BRAVA! I agree with you 200%! Thank you for stating it publicly!

This mess is all because of PFHA wanting to keep both Delgate Seats with Confepaso!

I think it is time for the Confepaso Leadership to step in and see what is REALLY happening here in the USA with regards to the Paso horses. Confepaso Leadership needs to STOP relying on the information they are getting from the PFHA Confepaso Delegates and see, hear, and listen to the owners of Paso Finos and to the owners of the diagonal Paso horses in the USA in order to understand how things truly are here. I don't believe the Leaders of Confepaso have a clue about how bad it really is here!

[GERAL1030]

PFHA is affiliated to CONFEPASO. Confepaso is the boss of PFHA there for PFHA has to acomodate to the rules of CONFEPASO
This is why diagonals are in the shows. I have not seen any trot and galop classes in any of the shows other then in miami and ocala. The people like them the people want them in our shows. Its soo that we have better trot and galop classes then fino classes.
You guys can say as much as you want. But the thing is the diagonals are in, we are not going anywere CONFEPASO backs us up. And we are in PFHA to stay.

[Siggy]

No Confepaso is not the boss of PFHA, we can choose to not belong any time we choose. Then Confepaso would not have the revenue from PFHA or it's members.

The MEMBERS are the boss of PFHA:v:

[GERAL1030]

Ohh wow PFHA can choose not to be part of CONFEPASO, then really PFHA will STOP existing. Who wants there horses to be registered with an association that is not affiliated to CONFEPASO??? Where there horse cannot assist a MUNDIAL.

CONFEPASO does whatever they want to do with PFHA. And if its not like that then why didnt PFHA count with the votes of the members to put diagonals in the PFHA shows??

[Siggy]

Owners that want to compete in confepaso shows simply register their horses with another association.

You must remember that if PFHA (and members) stop association with confepaso, the IMPORTS of horses to the USA will dwindle and then the South American breeders will loose their largest source of revenue.

It is a very fine line you are drawing in the sand. You dislike PFHA and the direction it is taking - yet where do you think the big $ come from, money that supports breeders in Colombian and PR, from Americans who are willing to pay over priced values on horses.

Without the USA as a sales venue, the horses will not have the same value in large quantities like before:)

[GERAL1030]

NOPE.. CONFEPASO told PFHA that if they do not do as told, they stop being affiliated with them, and then ATTA will take there place and ATTA WILL do what PFHA has not done in years.

So the possition PFHA has is DO WHAT CONFEPASO wants or get out. And then who is going to loose?

Confepaso is the boss of all paso fino association.
the ones in colombia, Puerto rico, Dominican republic, aruba, ect.

For example Confepaso is the boss of The main association is colombia which is FEDEQUINAS. Fedequinas has other associations under its comand, which are all the regionals.

In this case PFHA is under all ruling of CONFEPASO. And let me also say, PHFA is the most un organized of all associations. its the only one that does not apply the rules inforced by confepaso. And they had not been told anything until they where forced to Put diagonals in like in every other country.

[Siggy]

We can certainly agree to disagree. I know that I not only dont support confepaso, I do not attend any events PFHA has that support confepaso, and there are a number of other breeders who are now making that same move.

ATTA does not even have their own house in order yet, no way could they take on the Paso Fino divisions and the huge undertaking of DNA and registration of those horses. Great dream but very far away as of yet

[GERAL1030]

I'd advice you to call confepaso and ask for some information. ATTA can get to the possition of PFHA. It will take years but it can happen. The minute Confepaso decides to kick PFHA out ATTA will take there place and PFHA wont be anything.

[Siggy]

No, I wouldnt call Confepaso, as I said, I dont support them in any way. They are irrelevant to everything I do with Paso Finos. They have no purpose to myself or my horses.

Being put out by Confepaso is a very limited threat, limited to a very few breeders here.

[GERAL1030]

ok, ill let you think that.

The point is diagonals are in And we are NOT going anywhere. And there is nothing you or anyone can do

[SandyMM]

Who wants there horses to be registered with an association that is not affiliated to CONFEPASO???Me - and many more like me who would welcome the return of the 'old-fashioned', pre-Cappuchino era when smoothness was more highly valued than a quick step... When a soft step was more valued than a jackhammer step. When you could walk up to the ring at any show and know what division you were watching. Now that our Pasos in this country have been 'improved' many people have lost interest in them in favor of breeds that have more (to their way of thinking) of the traits that the first Pasos in this country had. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in my association being dictated to by Confepaso.

As to 'recreational breeders being few and far between, I'd say there are a lot more of them than most people know.... And in spite of all the nay-sayers, there is still a market for a smooth-gaited, sensible, well-conformed, forward moving horse with style, elegance, and and a fair share of attitude. PFHA would be wise to start catering a bit more to this large segment - they may not bring in as much money per person as the deep pocket exhibitors, but numbers would make up for that - if they feel their voice is being heard by the association.

[SandyMM]

The point is diagonals are in And we are NOT going anywhere. And there is nothing you or anyone can doTalk about the tail wagging the dog.... Exactly how many diagonal horses has ATTA registered in its 10+/- years of existence in this country?

[GERAL1030]

Thats you, maybe you just have horses as a hobby.

But for people like me a trainer who lives of horses its a whole different thing.

[GERAL1030]

Dont know and dont care how many, my fino horses are all registered in PFHA and colombia. And my trot and galop horses are all registered in colombia. And soon will be registered in PFHA :) Because its going to happen. Not just a validation but they WILL be registered

[Siggy]

That is hilarious, why would you want to register your horses with PFHA, that would be the demise of ATTA. You obviously are not discussing this to inform people or promote the diagonals. You are simply trying to stir up a controversy.

No horses are not a hobby to us.

[GERAL1030]

ATTA has nothing to do with this discusion, What matters is that diagonals are in and TO STAY and thats it :) like it or not there is no discusion its just the plain truth. :)

[SandyMM]

Well, that's certainly enlightening.... You don't care how many diagonals are registered in the ATTA diagonal registry in this country, but you insist on trying to force your diagonals into the PFHA registry which doesn't want them.....

Why not just join up with the International Paso Horse Federation which caters to anything with Paso attached to its name.....? Surely they'd welcome a few more diagonals.....

I can just see the gaited mountain horse associations trying to promote their non-gaited stock by giving them their own classes.... "Yes, we have some beautiful horses here who don't gait.... Yes, beautiful, exciting horses... What's that? Yes, we bred them to not gait and are promoting them with their very own classes - aren't they beautiful and exciting to watch? What's that? Yes, they are exceptional because we have trained them to be very beautiful and exciting and to go nowhere.... But they go nowhere very fast, very fast.... "

>sigh< Don't bother..... I'm reporting myself for having my own opinion about all this.....

[pnalley]

This has actually been an interesting thread. As long as everyone continues to withhold the personal attacks, it should be fine.

Gerbil, Please remember, more then once Americans have done the oposite of what was expected. It wouldn't suprise me to see the same now.

[Serendipity]

i would believe there would be a very down turn on memberships if pfha let the trotters be Reg. there has already been a drop from this validation form. and all this smoke from what like 200+ Reg horses in the US

trotters stay if you must but stand on your own two feet, and not everyone is ment to ride on coat tails do your own shows and your own memberships, why pirate ours? i mean really

course this is a great time to e-mail your region and tell them how much you don't want trotters in a gaited assn. also contact PFHA talk to the president,vice all of them, also let them know Confepaso does not support all US standards of the breed like Color, and pleasure gait ect and you'd like it to

do they have a pleasure class in Confepaso? or country pleasure /western pleasure ect and why not?

and just think if we that ride pleasure horses where as insistant as the trotters folk perhaps we could bring the pleasure horse back into the shows as they should be ;)

[Serendipity]

one more thing if your a breeder and this is or living.(ment to all breeders) why would you not want to produce the type of horse that sells to newcomers and the like, why focus on a tiny exqulive market, not every one want s a fino horse and a horse that is rough but tight and qiuck, or a trotting horse that is tight and quick most in the horse buisness that i know want a horse that goes some where????

[JennLM]

In this case PFHA is under all ruling of CONFEPASO. And let me also say, PHFA is the most un organized of all associations. its the only one that does not apply the rules inforced by confepaso. And they had not been told anything until they where forced to Put diagonals in like in every other country.

If the PFHA is under all ruling of CONFEPASO, why do we allow pintos to show or horses with lots of white?

Methinks you are tooting your horn a bit in all your posts.

If the PFHA's breed description says "It is an evenly-spaced four-beat lateral gait with each foot contacting the ground independently in a regular sequence at precise intervals creating a rapid, unbroken rhythm", why on earth do you think the ATTA breeds should be registered. It just blows my mind, seriously.

I may be new to Pasos, but I am not new to horses.

I really don't get why the PFHA is doing this, especially without member consent or votes. I wonder if members can do anything about this.

Don't get me wrong, I do really appreciate and think the ATTA breeds are very lovely. But here in the U.S., they just do not belong in the PFHA. I really don't get why the ATTA does not just work with their breed to get recognized.

[Lori Perez]

Yessenia I know you tried to explain it nicely (at first), and then there were some comments that upset you. Please don't worry about trying to explain anything or try to open anyone's eyes, because they don't care, won't want to listen to anyone who doesn't agree with them. What is important is that you continue to do what you and your Dad have done at the shows and with the people you meet every day and what a great ambassador Don Pepe is.

You have to understand some of the people on this BB don't know about the Paso horses like you do and don't do this for a living either. They do it as a hobby. They want to keep everything the way they had it in the past (at least some of them). I understand why some of them are so pissed off due to the lack of information that was provided by PFHA about this whole process.

They think that the paso horse is an American Breed, which we all know it is was not native to this country! It is a breed with a history that goes back before America was America. There should be more respect paid to the people and the countries where this horse is from. As an American I am embarassed sometimes when I read what some of these post say. If you are going to be a part of a breed then really learn all you can and be open to it. We as Americans always seem like we know it all, what is best for the whole world and we always try to "make it our own".

But, Yessenia - calm down OK! And the rest of you - "the regulars who ALWAYS LOOK FOR THE WORST", I want you all to know that Yessenia is a young girl who is very passionate about the horses and she is an outstanding horsewoman who gets my respect for that, as far as really understanding the Paso horse. Say hello to your Dad and thanks do much for posting the results from Spectrum. I watched Don Pepe win his class on the internet!

Take care all, Lori Perez

[Siggy]

Once again Ms Perez, you have it wrong.
We are not against diagonals!!! we are against them in our association and those of us that are, will defend our stand.

We are encouraging you to build ATTA and keep the diagonals there, in your own association and your own shows.

We will take back our association, the membership will have a say in what PFHA does.

This is not a hobby for many of us, we are experienced horse people who believe in maintaining our association as it was developed.
We DO know about Paso Finos, and we DO KNOW that the diagonals need to be seperate from our association and that is why we hope that ATTA does well on it's own.
Trying to dismiss our concerns as a lack of knowledge is simply incorrect and an attempt to redirect the focus from the truth.

I admire Yessenia's youth and passion, but to make statements as fact when they are not does not help the matter. She and perhaps you Ms Perez will come to know that although this is not an American breed, we are just as passionate about how we develop the horse here as you may be.

We KNOW it is not an American breed, but let's face it, we have developed many very good horses here in America so we do in fact have some influence on the breed.

And again I state, you are so against the "American" input in to the breed, but so happy to take American $ for sales. You can not have it both ways.

I look forward to the growth and success of ATTA, this will in fact help PFHA members with the goals of removing diagonals from our association.

[CarolU]

Lori, by your reasoning, we should get rid of the Paso gait all together, let it go extinct as the Jannet is, and breed only Andalusains.

The Paso Fino is as much an American breed as the Morgan, Kentucky Mountain horse, Rocky Mountain Horse, Singlefooter, American Quarter Horse...on and on. ALL horses were imported to the western hemisphere - including the Paso Fino to Latin America! Do we let England come and dictate what we do with Thoroughbreds? Or the Arab nations dictate how we breed and show Arabians? Why do Colombians think it is their right to TELL Americans what to do with OUR assocition, breed, and shows? I don't see other Latin American countries doing this.

The Paso Fino breed in America is NOT purely Colombian. We do NOT have to do things as Colombia dictates. If Colombians wanted jurisdiction over the breed totally, they should never have sold their horses to Americans in the first place. There are plenty of quality horses from the other countries and now bred here. Colombia can keep their horses right there, do what they want, and leave the rest of us to our own association, breed, and shows.

When I buy a QH, I don't have the AQHA dictate to me that it has to be 1/4 mile race horse.

This is NOT COLOMBIA. WELCOME TO AMERICA.

[Siggy]

Please do not degrade this discussion to ethnicity or culture.
Noone from Colombia is dictating what we do or that we do it their way.
Lori never stated the PF gait is not important. She is simply trying to incorporate importance of diagonals in to the breed here.

While all of the modalities are important and sought after in countries of origin, I think many do not understand that Americans have a wide variety of trotting horses here. The diagonal portion of the Pasos does not appeal to Americans because we have so many options here already.

I doubt that the diagonals will ever become popular in North America except with those from South America. And that is OK, there is no reason that there can not be an association for diagonals here. An association that promotes and favors the diagonals, just not our association.

Americans fell in love with a specific portion of the Paso breed and imported them here, that is the portion of the breed that many of us still want to promote and grow. The equal 4 beat gaited horse that is unlike North American gaited horses, a breed that does stand out from others because of the equal 4 beat gait.

[CarolU]

Siggy, it has nothing to do with ethnicity OR culture, both of which are rich and welcome. What it has to do with is ATTITUDE of SOME Colombians. I have had this argument for 5 years now, always with people from Colombia, and it always is that we HAVE to do it the way they do it in Colombia. Maybe I've missed it, but I don't see Puerto Ricans or Cubans doing this. They relish in the popularity of their horses here and celebrate them along with the rest of us.

I just get TIRED of having this thrown in our face, arguement after arguement. Enough already. This is PFHA and the MEMBERS decide what they want and don't want in the Association.

Other then that, I do agree with you that the popularity of the diagonals in North America will be very limited. I once told a diagonal breeder, that if he took his horses, trained them and showed them in Classical Dressage, he probably wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand for them...similar to the popularity of the Lusitano. There appears to be no interest in going into this market though...just the Paso Fino market. :(

[Siggy]

you're right it doesnt have anything to do with it and was not part of this discussion.

I find it interesting that many here think the diagonal Pasos perform the diagonal gaits like other highly trianed trotting breeds.

While it is indeed a diagonal gait, it is not like an extended trot or a highly tuned dressage horse. The timing (dwell), placement and collection is very different in the diagonals of a gaited horse vs the trotting breeds in North America and Europe.
That said, they are still diagonal and the discipline is very fine, but does not lend itself to the style here in America. It is a showring horse, highly skilled and developed to be in competition. I dont think that the North American public would be willing to get behind a portion of the breed that is so limited in it's uses. Our culture does not embrace that level of competition in many breeds.
That is why the diagonal portion of the breed should not be added to PFHA. There is too much confusion as it is now, bringing diagonals in to our association would be accepting a gait different than our association is promoting.
Those that are behind and support the diagonals will have better representation by an association dedicated to those modalities.

[CarolU]

Good point Siggy. Just look at how few PFHA members compete at that level of competition even with Paso Finos, how few attend shows, or are interested them. It would be a very limited market indeed if that's ALL the horses were good for...luckily it isn't.

I wondered about the athleticism of the diagnoals. I assumed it was all training and tack, that made them short stridded and so animated, that they'd be able to compete at other diagonal sports. My wrong.

[Siggy]

If it were tack and training then there would not be such spectacular representatives in each modality, nor would there be breeders who strive to breed each modality.

The diagonal portion of the Pasos are indeed very athletic, well bred, and a very special breed. They are selectively bred with a strong desire to improve the modalities and compete at the highest levels.

PFHA closed the books to Peruvians because they recognized the difference, we need to take this same action with diagonals to preserve the original standards set out here in North America.

[SandyMM]

Ever wonder why ATTA won't allow PFHA-registered Paso Fino gaited horses to be registered in ATTA? Because they're not diagonal and they don't meet the breed standard/gait description of ATTA.... How is that any different from what so many PFHA members are saying?

[Siggy]

That's right Sandy, their association does not promote or recognize the Paso Fino modality yet they are complaining that our association is not all inclusive, doesnt make much sense does it:D

[pasosx3]

I really don't get why the PFHA is doing this, especially without member consent or votes. I wonder if members can do anything about this.

Don't get me wrong, I do really appreciate and think the ATTA breeds are very lovely. But here in the U.S., they just do not belong in the PFHA. I really don't get why the ATTA does not just work with their breed to get recognized.

RE: PFHA. Exactly my question....if so many PFHA Members are opposed to this action, then HOW is it being done???? Who, which Leaders of PFHA, are railroading this through???? And, HOW are they being ALLOWED to do this??? I've asked these questions of PFHA and I get no concrete answers. What CAN the Members do about this???? I have no idea. That is why I have dropped my membership with PFHA--I can not support an Organization (with my money) that treats its Members like they do and that violates its own Mission, Rules and Bylaws. It is such a pity it is like this....

Also, I would like to remind/inform PFHA Members that PFHA is REQUIRING all of the Diagonal Paso Horse Owners and Trainers who want to Show in PFHA Shows to become full fledged Members of PFHA!!!! Think about that for a moment....Again, WHO is making the Policies/Rules and HOW are they being ALLOWED to do this???


RE: ATTA. ATTA is powerless in this whole thing with PFHA and Confepaso! And, this IS about Confepaso and PFHA. Confepaso told PFHA that they need to incorporate the diagonals OR give up one of their 2 Delegate Seats on Confepaso.

IF PFHA gave up one Seat, then they could re-dedicate themselves to the Paso Fino horse in the USA and then let another organization (maybe ATTA, who knows) focus on the diagonal paso horses in the USA. But, ATTA has no power in this!!! I wish PFHA Members would understand this and STOP blaming ATTA and the diagonal horses! This MESS is all PFHA!!!

[Serendipity]

nope none, but if ATTA took our trocha paso's........ (sorry daydreaming) we'd pure up our breed even more as in paso fino gaited paso finos, would it not be nice to be able to gaurontee gait? not practial but if i'm dreaming might as well dream big

and I do hope ATTA does well with its assn no hard feeling there

and i don't even care that they share PFHA shows but make it as there very own show like they do at the clemson show in SC one day is PFHA and the other is PPR, why is that so hard to understand and do???? if your already there and going to show why must you be mixed in w/ Paso Fino horses, I just don't get it????

[Siggy]

So Serendipity, should we go back and cancel registration of offspring of KNOWN diagonals (trocha) once they are registered with ATTA? Remember, to get rid of all diagonals you must acknowledge that the genetics of gait are recessive so if you remove a known Trocha horse there is a very good chance that the offspring in PFHA still carry the recessive gene and can then pass it on to their offspring when crossed with another carrier.

Countries of origin have all of the modalities because they recognize the fact that offspring do not always follow in their parents foot fall so to speak.

Even PR has non 4 beat gaited horses, they simply dont show or register them. They find other purposes for them, that is how they cull them from their show stock. Here in America, everyone thinks that all of their horses are entitled to papers because the pedigree is pure. Just try to yank papers from a good old born and bred USA horse that gaits crappy and see how much support you have.
The crappy gaited trotty Paso Finos are not necessarily a trocha or TYG horse, they may just be a crappy Paso Fino;)

[pnalley]

This has been a very interesting thread. Siggy I have enjoyed your posts. You have kept a cool head and kept on topic. That is appreciated.

I am dismayed that PFHA appears to be a power unto itself. By that I mean, PFHA should be doing as the majority of membership wants providing in follows the bylaws & rules of the association.

[Siggy]

Thank you, I do have help though, I am running a number of things through close friends, trainers and others that are of the same thinking.

I only wish my in-laws were still alive, they had Paso Finos many many many :p years ago. My husband and I came back to Paso Finos a number of years ago and have learned the hard way, and have been taken for a ride by large breeders and trainers. We had to get to know the Paso Fino horse of today, and like you are dismayed over the association and politics that has been in my opinion injurious to the breed.

[Serendipity]

true enough, but if the crap gaited trotting paso is winning in the show ring not doing the gait it should and beating other well gaited horse i'd say there is issues there, not every horse is ment to be a show horse and those that can not maintain gait are amoung them.JMO

and the past is the past we must look to the future we all know there is a lot of trocha/trot blood from the way back but we should look at our horses now that there is enough deveristy and enough bloodlines that we are not linebreeding all the time we should look at a horse we are producing now and if its not gaiting as it should then those are the horses we need to do something about because those are the one still not fallowing the breed standerard those before are grandfathered in as in anything else anding thr trotting/trocha horse to be part of PFHA will just allow this to become a bigger problem because people will cross breed them and before log we'll be where the walking horse is most have to be trained to gait and natural goes out the window that is something i do not want to see, I happen to like my smooth gaited pasos and i love to see my babies as the gait only hours or days out, I take pride in that

like we all know you are required to were seatbelts in a car but in AL(and i'm sure a dozen other states) if the car is pre 1966 or 68 no seatbelt is required this is a grandfathered law

[Siggy]

but seat belts dont have genetics:v: By keeping and not identifying trocha the genetics continues on, it doesnt just stop at the grandfather date.

PFHA does and has for a long time register offspring from stock that is ONLY 3generations Paso Fino Modality on the foreign papers. But that was after a grandfather date.

[GERAL1030]

CarolU,

This is not COLOMBIA, welcome to america!!!

Wow this sure does show some lack of knowledge. For your information COLOMBIA IS IN AMERICA!!!!! America is divided into 3 parts NORTH, SOUTH, AND CENTRAL!!!

And once again im going to state that this whole argument about PFHA taking the diagonals out is point less. It will not happen because CONFEPASO said so. PFHA is the only association that does not have all modalities (FINO, Trot, And Trocha.) Every other country has it and they see no problem in it!
CONFEPASO has waved many rules to PFHA and its about time they start to push PFHA into imply these rules. It makes no sence that eveyother country applies these rules exept USA. Without all these countries USA would not have the fino breed that we do today. So lets start to respect these countries now, and follow what they have had to follow for years.

It may not matter to you if PFHA is part of CONFEPASO, But to PFHA it does.
And no matter what the members say, it comes first what CONFEPASO tell PFHA to do and then what the members want. AND IN EVERY COUNTRY TROT, FINO, AND TROCHA are together in the same shows USA is not going to be the exeption

Lets all learn a little bit more about our breed...

Lori, Thanks so much
I mean i know all the work you have put into this, helping diagonals. And this is the breed , my breed and i will defend it till the end. If people like or not doesnt matter. The FACT is that it happend. And there is no turning back. and we owe alot of it to you :)
And everything these people say its going to come in and right back out. Im proud to say that i know what im talking about. I know about the Fino breed and thats why i open my mouth to say what i do.

[GERAL1030]

i would believe there would be a very down turn on memberships if pfha let the trotters be Reg. there has already been a drop from this validation form. and all this smoke from what like 200+ Reg horses in the US

trotters stay if you must but stand on your own two feet, and not everyone is ment to ride on coat tails do your own shows and your own memberships, why pirate ours? i mean really

course this is a great time to e-mail your region and tell them how much you don't want trotters in a gaited assn. also contact PFHA talk to the president,vice all of them, also let them know Confepaso does not support all US standards of the breed like Color, and pleasure gait ect and you'd like it to

do they have a pleasure class in Confepaso? or country pleasure /western pleasure ect and why not?

and just think if we that ride pleasure horses where as insistant as the trotters folk perhaps we could bring the pleasure horse back into the shows as they should be ;)

I believe that in some countries they do have pleasure classes. If CONFEPASO didnt have them, the we would not have them in the MUNDIAL. And we do have them.

Once again PFHA cannot take the diagonals out if they wanted to. The are UNDER ALL RULING OF CONFEPASO. The only thing they can do is stop being part of CONFEPASO, and then they can kick diagonals out.

[GERAL1030]

I may be new to Pasos, but I am not new to horses.

.

You may not, but im not either. My family has been in the horses for years, im the third generation down. And trust me when i say something is because i know what im talking about. I just dont open my mouth for words to come out, i open it to make a point.

[Cindy]

Yessenia, first of all let me say that I respect your knowledge of horses and the pride that you show in the Paso breed. As a young person you are very well spoken. And your stallion is beautiful. But I must correct what you are saying in this one matter. Confepaso does not rule over any of the member countries. It does not dictate the rules of member Associations nor can it. It is a conglomeration of Associations from around the world that came together in order to promote the horse of the conquistadors through international competition. The only place that it's rules apply are in international competitions that are sanctioned on by Confepaso. And, just for the record, the Paso Fino Horse Association has been in existence about 3 times a long as Confepaso so please do not think they the Association NEEDS Confepaso as it doesn't. To the contrary, Confepaso and all those who want to promote international competition need one another and we all need one another in the same spirit in which Confepaso was formed. The spirit of competition and the love of the horse. If would be REAL nice if everyone would remember why Confepaso was formed and continue to work together to promote the breed.

For all this talk about PFHA must represent diagonals or loose their seat, which by the way is incorrect, let me ask you this, who is reprsenting the Peruvian horses? I have a copy of the Confepaso bylaws and have actually read them.Has anyone else? And they clearly state that the Peruvian Paso horse is part of Confepaso and a horse of the conquistadors that Confepaso represents. Should all the member Associations also be forced, by the same token as some of the thinking that has been presented here, to provide for the Peruvian horse in their competitions? And if not, why not. If one reads through the bylaws of Confepaso, they are mentioned equally to the diagonal horses and to the Paso Fino for that matter. Food for thought.

[pasosx3]

Enough already. This is PFHA and the MEMBERS decide what they want and don't want in the Association. :(


Gosh, CarolU, I don't mean any disrepect, but ARE YOU SURE THE MEMBERS really get to decide what they want and don't want? Seems like just the opposite from what I can tell.....In theory one would think it would be that way, but based on results, I would say no....

The only way to know for sure how the PFHA Members feel on this issue is to allow a 1 Member-1 Vote Referendum. If the PFHA Leaders believed it is what the Members want, then they should have no problem doing it in order to PROVE the support is there. Because they will not do a Vote, it tells me the PFHA Leaders have no confidence that a Vote would pass so they are resorting to covert and questionable tactics.

IF I knew for sure that the majority of PFHA Members welcomed the Diagonals in to their Organization in any form or fashion, I would support PFHA 100 % in that effort. But, because I do not believe the support is there, it is hard for me to support this effort. I only want my diagonal paso horses involved in an Organization that truly wants and supports them....I truly only want what is in the BEST interests of all of the Paso horses.

[Siggy]

I think that Peruvian associations are inclusive of the gaits that the Peruvians do. Since they dont have diagonals in their breed they do not have to have diagonal gaits.

PFHA will never have to register diagonals uless they want to, however their choice of side stepping rules to get diagonals at the shows is something that is being questioned and hopefully will come to light.

[Cindy]

I think that Peruvian associations are inclusive of the gaits that the Peruvians do. Since they dont have diagonals in their breed they do not have to have diagonal gaits.

PFHA will never have to register diagonals uless they want to, however their choice of side stepping rules to get diagonals at the shows is something that is being questioned and hopefully will come to light.

Siggy, that was not my question. My question was, should the member Associations of Confepaso be forced to include Peruvian classes in their competitions, not should Peruvian Associations be forced to have diagonal classes.

[GERAL1030]

CONFEPASO clearly told PFHA ( or you put diagonals in or you loose your spot) its clear as that. and associations around the world all rule by confepaso rules plus add there own. EXEPT USA. why is that?? USA needs to start appling the rules. OR get out and let another association do what they are not doing.

About the peruvian horses, i have no idea. Someone needs so step up for these horses, just like we did for diagonals. And if its stated there then i do believe someone should step up for these horses and make there way in too!! I think that every country should start applying the rules, because let me tell you its about time. Things are getting out of hand.
This thing that PFHA does that lets any horse go into championships its horrible. I dont want my horses competing with any horse that was excused from there class. Into the championship only 1st and 2nd should come in. Its not fair to the rest.
Everone has the right to speak up for what they believe in
I speak up for the trot and galop horses (WITH FACTS)
And others can speak up for any other irregularities they see.

[Siggy]

nope only the international competitions that Confepaso represents, like you stated.
Didnt you also point out at one time that the country hosting confepaso shows has some leniency with things like amateur owner classes, color allowances etc?

[SandyMM]

Knowledgeable, thoughtful post, Cindy..... thanks.

I have 5 windows open right now - each with a different set of comments, but then I thought.... it all boils down to one thing.....

Where is the logic in wiping out centuries of meticulous breeding for a reliably smooth, even 4 beat gaited saddle horse with all its unique and treasured qualities - which is what PFHA is trying to maintain - in order to retro-engineer diagonal gaits which took centuries to eliminate? Or were diagonals just an 'oops' somewhere along the line?

[SandyMM]

The only way to know for sure how the PFHA Members feel on this issue is to allow a 1 Member-1 Vote Referendum.On this or any other issue for that matter.

[SandyMM]

CONFEPASO clearly told PFHA ( or you put diagonals in or you loose your spot) its clear as that. and associations around the world all rule by confepaso rules plus add there own. EXEPT USA. why is that?? USA needs to start appling the rules. OR get out and let another association do what they are not doing.Since Cindy pointed out that PFHA (and probably most of the other associations) had their rules in place long before Confepaso was ever created, it seems to me that Confepaso rules are an agreed upon conglomeration of all the associations' rules..... not the other way around....

[GERAL1030]

nope only the international competitions that Confepaso represents, like you stated.
Didnt you also point out at one time that the country hosting confepaso shows has some leniency with things like amateur owner classes, color allowances etc?

In colombia we only have classic fino classes, in all ages. Trot and galop in all ages. Trocha in all ages, Trocha and galop in all ages. The A/O that wants to compete has to take it to professional also the youth that want to compete has to take it to Professional

Horses have to be one color and one color only, no pintos or if any markings follow to the inside of the horse. There are also size limits. a horse that is too small CANNOT compete, there is a certain size limit per age per sex, and some of these will be applied at the mundial in colombia

[GERAL1030]

Since Cindy pointed out that PFHA (and probably most of the other associations) had their rules in place long before Confepaso was ever created, it seems to me that Confepaso rules are an agreed upon conglomeration of all the associations' rules..... not the other way around....

Its a simply as, it does not matter weather the association was there before CONFEPASO. If an association wants one spot at the CONFEPASO meetings they have to apply the rules they made :0 point blank it does not matter to them if an association has to change there original rules. In the case of PFHA they have not finished applying confepaso rules :)

[Siggy]

and that works for Colombia, it would not work here. When Mundial is here we have A/O classes, pleasure and performance classes.
A pinto actually won a pleasure titel because Confepaso had no rules for pleasure at that time.

I know some say that the excessive white rule was waived but it was actually the pleasure class rules rush that allowed a pinto in.

So you see, Confepaso does not dictate to all, it listens to all and then helps to organize the competition in multiple international countries.

Thank you cindy for additional information on the intent of Confepaso

[GERAL1030]

Colombia will have A/O classes at the mundial it will have perfomance and pleasure. I already saw the class lists. For this occation The rules for a mundial have to be accomodated for all the associations.

[Cindy]

CONFEPASO clearly told PFHA ( or you put diagonals in or you loose your spot) its clear as that. and associations around the world all rule by confepaso rules plus add there own. EXEPT USA. why is that?? USA needs to start appling the rules. OR get out and let another association do what they are not doing.


That is simply untrue. The matter of the seats in Confepaso was resolved prior to any addition of diagonals. It was resolved the way it was because the reprsentatives from of Confepaso are countries, not Associations and in order to change that the bylaws of Confepaso must be changed. The Associations "around the world" (awfully small world) are in fact not governed by Confepaso rules. They adopt their own rules. Some are closer to Confepaso than others.

[Serendipity]

The A/O that wants to compete has to take it to professional also the youth that want to compete has to take it to Professional

Horses have to be one color and one color only, no pintos or if any markings follow to the inside of the horse.

this is why i have no interest in comfepaso, I might use and seek advice from a trainer but i will always show my own horses i may also have a trainer show them too but you can bet if a horse of mine is being shown in at least one class i'll be in the saddle

and since no one can tell me WHY pinto are not allowed in to show to me this is a stupid "rule" with no bearing and is bias. who wants a bunch of plain looking horses, to me the color of markings or pinto add some spice to the eye, no i am not againt solid horses so don't go there i like them both equal and they are equal color is just a wrapper good blood is good blood

[Cindy]

About the peruvian horses, i have no idea. Someone needs so step up for these horses, just like we did for diagonals. And if its stated there then i do believe someone should step up for these horses and make there way in too!! I think that every country should start applying the rules, because let me tell you its about time. Things are getting out of hand.
This thing that PFHA does that lets any horse go into championships its horrible. I dont want my horses competing with any horse that was excused from there class. Into the championship only 1st and 2nd should come in. Its not fair to the rest.


So if one of the Peruvian Associations from the United States wanted to "step up" for their breed, that would be three different seats in Confepaso?

And if you think only first and second place horses should go in Championship classes, did you submit a rule change? We all have our opinions. But that is all they are if all we do with them is speak about them.

[pasosx3]

That is simply untrue. The matter of the seats in Confepaso was resolved prior to any addition of diagonals.

Cindy, could you supply the Documentation to support that? Actually, I would love to hear the President of PFHA state publicly that the whole issue of diagonals and Validation Certificates, etc was not prompted by a Confepaso request! I mean no disrespect to you and your position within the PFHA Organization (although I don't know what your position is). What I'm saying is: I would like to see the PFHA President publicly go on the record regarding all of this.

And, Cindy, tell us again, why does PFHA want both Confepaso Delegate Seats? Does PFHA want to embrace the diagonals? Does PFHA want to give the diagonals equal status within the PFHA organization? And, why does PFHA want the diagonal owners and trainers to be Members of PFHA? And, will the Diagonals be able to advertise in the PFHA Horse World Magazine? And, will there be Articles written in the PFHA Horse World Magazine about the diagonal horses and the point standings and earnings, etc? Thanks in advance.

[SandyMM]

Great - now I've got _6_ windows open and stewing with replies I shouldn't post.... :rolleyes:

[GERAL1030]

So if one of the Peruvian Associations from the United States wanted to "step up" for their breed, that would be three different seats in Confepaso?

And if you think only first and second place horses should go in Championship classes, did you submit a rule change? We all have our opinions. But that is all they are if all we do with them is speak about them.

The has been submited, not by me but it already has been

[GERAL1030]

Cindy, could you supply the Documentation to support that? Actually, I would love to hear the President of PFHA state publicly that the whole issue of diagonals and Validation Certificates, etc was not prompted by a Confepaso request! I mean no disrespect to you and your position within the PFHA Organization (although I don't know what your position is). What I'm saying is: I would like to see the PFHA President publicly go on the record regarding all of this.

And, Cindy, tell us again, why does PFHA want both Confepaso Delegate Seats? Does PFHA want to embrace the diagonals? Does PFHA want to give the diagonals equal status within the PFHA organization? And, why does PFHA want the diagonal owners and trainers to be Members of PFHA? And, will the Diagonals be able to advertise in the PFHA Horse World Magazine? And, will there be Articles written in the PFHA Horse World Magazine about the diagonal horses and the point standings and earnings, etc? Thanks in advance.

She has no documentation to support this, now its gotten to the piont of people starting to say things just to say, PFHA was told to put the diagonals in or to leave there seat vacant for ATTA!!! So she cannot come here and tell me thats not true because as i stated before, when i make a comment is because im sure, all it takes her to prove that im right is a simple call to CONFEPASO. :)

[Cindy]

Confepaso report to the BOD Jan 2009:


REPORT TO PFHA BOARD OF DIRECTORS
CONFEPASO – JANUARY 2009



CONFEPASO held its meeting in Ponce, Puerto Rico, December 4, 2008 during the Ponce International Horse Show, sponsored by the Asociación de Criadores de Caballos de Paso Fino de America. At that meeting, the resignation of Mr. C.J.Marcello, Jr. as President was accepted and Mr. Victor Chavarro, Delegate from Colombia assumed the Presidency.



The issue of the American Trocha & Trote Association was thoroughly discussed. It was unanimously decided that since CONFEPASO’s By-Laws do not allow independent entities as members, the issue of ATTA would not be brought again to CONFEPASO unless their By Laws are amended.



The Board unanimously ratified that both seats representing the United States as member of CONFEPASO belong to PFHA.



The Board of CONFEPASO at a Conference Call. October 20, 2008 decided that the Equine Congress held in Venezuela, October 17-18, 2008, was not mandatory and it would be substituted by a second Congress to be held in Colombia, either in January or February 2009. This was amended at the Ponce meeting. Due to the economic situation world wide, it was decided that the Congress would be substituted by workshops to be held in a country member that requests it. This would provide the opportunity for all international judges to comply with this requirement and they could attend any workshop held in 2009. A committee will select the topics and presenters, which will be the same for any workshop in any country. We intend to request that a workshop of this nature be held in the United States with simultaneous translation for the benefit of our non-Spanish speaking judges.



Several hearings were conducted on charges by the Youth Mundial international judges. Mr. Evencio Gómez, President of Fedepaso in Venezuela was sanctioned for four years. Mr. Eduardo Conte from Venezuela, and Mr. Eduardo Rojo, Mr. Victor Velez and Ms. Dora Luz Hernandez from Colombia were sanctioned for two years. All country members are to be notified of the sanctions and the Federations or Associations are expected to honor those sanctions.



Dr. José Arias and Dr. Agnes Berrios, parents of Javier Arias, who was disqualified at the Mundial and had his gold medal taken from him, requested a special hearing. After an investigation, conducted by Dr. Arias’ attorneys, it was evident that Javier did not commit any fault. CONFEPASO’s Board of Directors restored his gold medal in the category of riders 18 to 20 years of age with a public apology and after a recount the Trophy for the best team was awarded to Puerto Rico. This ceremony took place at the Pachín Vicens Coliseum in Ponce, Puerto Rico on Sunday December 7th.


Mr. Eduardo Armel, President of CRINES, an association in Colombia under FEDEQUINAS, made a presentation of the next Mundial scheduled for November 26 – 29, 2009 in Pereira, Colombia. The Association is working with the local authorities to provide free quarantine for horses arriving from other countries and the free daily transportation from the hotels to the Coliseum. They are also planning on inviting several horses from the country members and support them with monetary incentives.



A brief summary of what the Task Force appointed by Ms. Robin Ratliff, PFHA President has done and will submit to the Board today under the title of PFHA BOARD OF DIRECTORS POLICY ON OTHER MODALITIES was presented to the Board of CONFEPASO. It was extremely well received with comments that we are doing more than they expected.



The next meeting of CONFEPASO is scheduled for Miami, Florida during the Spectrum International in May 2009.



The Task Force to deal with the issue of other modalities met via Conference Call in November 19, 2008. The minutes are included as an attachment to this report. The proposed PFHA Board of Director’s Policy on other modalities, and a sample of the Validation Certificate are also attached to this report.


Respectfully submitted:




José M. Laracuente
PFHA Delegate to CONFEPASO

[GERAL1030]

Confepaso report to the BOD Jan 2009:


REPORT TO PFHA BOARD OF DIRECTORS
CONFEPASO – JANUARY 2009



CONFEPASO held its meeting in Ponce, Puerto Rico, December 4, 2008 during the Ponce International Horse Show, sponsored by the Asociación de Criadores de Caballos de Paso Fino de America. At that meeting, the resignation of Mr. C.J.Marcello, Jr. as President was accepted and Mr. Victor Chavarro, Delegate from Colombia assumed the Presidency.



The issue of the American Trocha & Trote Association was thoroughly discussed. It was unanimously decided that since CONFEPASO’s By-Laws do not allow independent entities as members, the issue of ATTA would not be brought again to CONFEPASO unless their By Laws are amended.



The Board unanimously ratified that both seats representing the United States as member of CONFEPASO belong to PFHA.



The Board of CONFEPASO at a Conference Call. October 20, 2008 decided that the Equine Congress held in Venezuela, October 17-18, 2008, was not mandatory and it would be substituted by a second Congress to be held in Colombia, either in January or February 2009. This was amended at the Ponce meeting. Due to the economic situation world wide, it was decided that the Congress would be substituted by workshops to be held in a country member that requests it. This would provide the opportunity for all international judges to comply with this requirement and they could attend any workshop held in 2009. A committee will select the topics and presenters, which will be the same for any workshop in any country. We intend to request that a workshop of this nature be held in the United States with simultaneous translation for the benefit of our non-Spanish speaking judges.



Several hearings were conducted on charges by the Youth Mundial international judges. Mr. Evencio Gómez, President of Fedepaso in Venezuela was sanctioned for four years. Mr. Eduardo Conte from Venezuela, and Mr. Eduardo Rojo, Mr. Victor Velez and Ms. Dora Luz Hernandez from Colombia were sanctioned for two years. All country members are to be notified of the sanctions and the Federations or Associations are expected to honor those sanctions.



Dr. José Arias and Dr. Agnes Berrios, parents of Javier Arias, who was disqualified at the Mundial and had his gold medal taken from him, requested a special hearing. After an investigation, conducted by Dr. Arias’ attorneys, it was evident that Javier did not commit any fault. CONFEPASO’s Board of Directors restored his gold medal in the category of riders 18 to 20 years of age with a public apology and after a recount the Trophy for the best team was awarded to Puerto Rico. This ceremony took place at the Pachín Vicens Coliseum in Ponce, Puerto Rico on Sunday December 7th.


Mr. Eduardo Armel, President of CRINES, an association in Colombia under FEDEQUINAS, made a presentation of the next Mundial scheduled for November 26 – 29, 2009 in Pereira, Colombia. The Association is working with the local authorities to provide free quarantine for horses arriving from other countries and the free daily transportation from the hotels to the Coliseum. They are also planning on inviting several horses from the country members and support them with monetary incentives.



A brief summary of what the Task Force appointed by Ms. Robin Ratliff, PFHA President has done and will submit to the Board today under the title of PFHA BOARD OF DIRECTORS POLICY ON OTHER MODALITIES was presented to the Board of CONFEPASO. It was extremely well received with comments that we are doing more than they expected.



The next meeting of CONFEPASO is scheduled for Miami, Florida during the Spectrum International in May 2009.



The Task Force to deal with the issue of other modalities met via Conference Call in November 19, 2008. The minutes are included as an attachment to this report. The proposed PFHA Board of Director’s Policy on other modalities, and a sample of the Validation Certificate are also attached to this report.


Respectfully submitted:




José M. Laracuente
PFHA Delegate to CONFEPASO

No one ever said those two sits didnt belong to PFHA. And diagonals had been competing in PFHA shows before the date stated on this document :)

[Cindy]

No one ever said those two sits didnt belong to PFHA. And diagonals had been competing in PFHA shows before the date stated on this document :)

What? Your contention was that the PFHA approved validation certificates in order to keep their seats on the Confepaso Board. I stated that was untrue. You asked me to verify. I did. And, no, there were no pointed classes prior to the date of this report.

[GERAL1030]

What? Your contention was that the PFHA approved validation certificates in order to keep their seats on the Confepaso Board. I stated that was untrue. You asked me to verify. I did. And, no, there were no pointed classes prior to the date of this report.

NO no no you got the whole thing there wrong, PFHA alowed the diagonals to SHOW in there ring in order not to loose there seat in CONFEPASO just one of them, everything else came after. The oringinal problem was PFHA letting us compete!!

[GERAL1030]

I would like for some people to read this, so that you get an undestanding of why these horses compete together with finos, and to explain a little bit about ATTA and there possition with CONFEPASO And PFHA.

http://www.usatta.org/

[Cindy]

OK, I am really trying here. The meeting in Ponce was held in December of 2008. That is where it was decided that PFHA would keep their 2 seats and that ATTA could not take one. This report was presented to the PFHA BOD in January 2009. Which is when the validation certificates were approved by the PFHA BOD. The first pointed diagonal classes were held in March of 2009.

[GERAL1030]

OK, I am really trying here. The meeting in Ponce was held in December of 2008. That is where it was decided that PFHA would keep their 2 seats and that ATTA could not take one. This report was presented to the PFHA BOD in January 2009. Which is when the validation certificates were approved by the PFHA BOD. The first pointed diagonal classes were held in March of 2009.

YES thats right, But the whole issue about PFHA loosing one of there seats was because they didnt allow trot and galop in. Not because they were not validating our registrations, because we had been competing with other registrations we just didnt get points, now we are

[Cindy]

The whole issue about PFHA losing their seats was something that CJ Marcelo started that never had any basis in fact as it was against the Confepaso bylaws.

[SandyMM]

YES thats right, But the whole issue about PFHA loosing one of there seats was because they didnt allow trot and galop in. We've seen Cindy's documentation. Now, where is Geral's to back up her statements?

[CarolU]

Thank you Cindy. As someone who sat on the sidelines, but luckily lives in a region who passes on information, that is how I remember it.

Also, PFHA VOTED in a membership meeting to allow Diagonal classes in shows where there is an interest. They are not required classes in all PFHA shows.

It was not dictated by anyone. For all the years, until this year, PFHA did not allow diagonals and was still a member of Confepaso. Confepaso and PFHA are two different organizations with their own rules and their own shows. Some people belong to and attend both, most do not. The two seats at Confepaso have always been with PFHA as the representative organization of North America.

I am personally done with showing in PFHA now...and will be done with the organization totally if they start registering diagonals. I have to wait and see how they handle diagonals in the next rule change meeting. I fully respect what is done in Colombia as being fine for Colombia. It is not fine here where PFHA was founded solely for the 4-beat gait.

[Siggy]

Also, PFHA VOTED in a membership meeting to allow Diagonal classes in shows where there is an interest. They are not required classes in all PFHA shows

The move to validate and allow points and national classes was not member voted. In fact there was a suspension of rules to allow it to be moved to an administrative decision. This action is the one being investingated right now by some, as PFHA is a members not for profit organization and this may not have been done correctly as I understand it.

[pnalley]

Are the minutes of the May 2009 meeting available yet? Most likely too early, but I would like to see them

[Serendipity]

(whisles) all this work to tee off a judge... got to admit girls got guts..... wheres the popcorn munching smiley

and its were no wonder we don't want to embrace trotters we have negitive conserns and all anyone with trotters can do is keep shoving them down our throats its like By gosh you'll like it or get the flip out

ever heard the phrase catch more flys w/ honey than vinager? well thats what is happening here, many in the USA that have PFHA Paso Finos do not want trotters in the membership org. but them staying with ATTA as a seprate and working w/ PFHA i believe would most likey get a much more welcome responce,maybe not i'm guessing

but the constant nah nah we're here to stay,from the trotting folk is making it one hard pill to choke down its discussions and threads like these that make the exception of them even harder.

and again look at the # of horses we are talking about!!!!!!!!! Lori Perez gave a # of how many trot/trocha horses there were in the USA and its like 200+ thats it,thats all in the 10+ yrs they've been here that all its gotten to be??????!!!!! and where are they located? how many are outside of Florida? what else do you do with these horse other than show them? can they be trail ridden? not the i'm taking my show horse for a jont through the woods but really ridden all day with other riders and for many miles(i've heard they are nothing but a show ring horse is that true?)

so what else can they do? USA American Paso Finos have done shows,endurance,competive trail,barrels and many other activites that they perform well in even our fino horses have been able to win a largo race now and then, that shows versitility

[CarolU]

Nicole...I have an old gelding here that has never gaited a day in his life. Can't get him to gait, husband swears he's half Quarter Horse. ROFL I wonder how many more TROTTERS there are out there that I'm SURE will be welcomed in PFHA shows now, with their big TRAIL trots. I'm pretty sure I can get a gallop out of him too. ROFL

I have to agree with you. The BEST way to get people lined up against you is to try to FORCE them to do something. This is NORTH America (thanks for the correction...although PFHA also has Colombia and PR regions), a land of democracies. We don't like anyone thinking they're forcing us to do anything.

I imagine that this ATTA IS FORCING US attitude is rubbing the craw of a lot of PFHA members (like it is me) - most of whom could give a SNIT about ATTA or Confepaso. I wasn't nearly as upset about this two weeks ago as I am now.

Should be an interesting meeting this year.

[GERAL1030]

You people are impossible, So ill just leave you to keep thinking that we are trying to force the diagonals,

But you know what, the piont is that diagonals are in and there is nothing you can do about it!! We are getting our registrations validated by PFHA, we are showing at every show and we are having no problem.
So i dont really care about any of your comments you all close minded, dont want to believe more then what you think you know you want to make things bigger then what they really are. Just accept things how they are and please
go to www.usatta.org and you a little research where the trot and galop came from so you can see how related it is to a fino horse, and thats why then need to compete at the same shows.

[SandyMM]

You people are impossible, So ill just leave you to keep thinking that we are trying to force the diagonals,

But you know what, the piont is that diagonals are in and there is nothing you can do about it!!And yet - it walks like a duck.....

I can't see where you have stopped - for even a moment - to consider any viewpoints other than those you have probably grown up with... The point you have missed entirely is that you are trying to impose your preferences on a number of people who have owned/trained/shown/bred/invested in Pasos for as many as 40 years - or more - in this country (that's easily 3 generations in some families....). Shockingly (not), we have developed our own opinions about what we want and don't want in the breed and in our association in this country.... just like every other country with Pasos has tweaked the breed - through breeding and outcrosses - over its entire history to meet specific regional needs and preferences. :rolleyes: (That's why it was _so_ easy in the earliest days of Pasos in the US to tell the PPRs from the Colombians from - usually - the Dominicans - and even some of the Cuban gaited horses...)

Obviously, not all PFHA members agree on all points, but a very large number do _not_ want to promote the diagonals through PFHA. It has absolutely nothing to do with liking or disliking diagonals.... It has everything to do with the stated purpose of PFHA - to promote the Paso Fino gaited horse in this country.

[CarolU]

Cindy can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall the decisions to maintain the SEPARATE registry for Trote y Galope and Trocha horses by PFHA, and to allow them classes at our shows, were strictly financial, for additional income for PFHA.

I have to wonder who is "close minded" here.

[Siggy]

Of course it was financial, but to do so in such an underhanded way and with so many members against it has now brought up many more issues that PFHA is refusing to acknowledge.

I have to say that if I did not have to pay so much more to do the paper work associated with registration etc as a non-member, I would never renew my membership with PFHA. I have heard time and time again of people not renewing, not only because of this issue but this seems to be a strong point for many and was the proverbial final straw.

When will PFHA learn that trying to please all of the outside forces is driving away long time members and slowing growth of the breed. When will they learn that revenue from sources that go against what the members want and what has been set forth by PFHA as the breed standards is, has the reverse effect (loosing money) by loss of membership.

Really, did PFHA think that this high validation fee, like the huge embryo fee would be met well from anyone involved? And that everything would be forgiven because it was going to bring in more revenue?

Now we are faced with diagonals in our shows.
Is anyone checking to see how this has/will effected PFHA member participation in shows?

[SandyMM]

like the huge embryo fee would be met well from anyone involved?That's a subject for another thread...... I think I'll start that one over in the Paso Chit Chat section... ;)

[Serendipity]

You people are impossible, So ill just leave you to keep thinking that we are trying to force the diagonals,

But you know what, the piont is that diagonals are in and there is nothing you can do about it!!

and again "oh No we're not Forcing just shhhhhhh and like it", thats the comments that will put hair up on anyone and you still wonder why your horses are not well recieved????? its truel a mystery,yea right they will continue to be looked down apon as long as this above attitude is not under check, remberber there are people here that have been in Paso Finos longer that perhaps you've been born, raisind in a horse famiely does not always make you more knowedgeble, a lot of time it makes you very very close minded

We are getting our registrations validated by PFHA, we are showing at every show and we are having no problem.

also not true did not see you in Memphis, or any trottes they are not welcome at every show so far to dates is only been at the Florida shows and that hardly ALL of them


So i dont really care about any of your comments you all close minded, dont want to believe more then what you think you know you want to make things bigger then what they really are. Just accept things how they are

Why? you've not made anyone feel easy about this quite the oppisit, you don't even consider our views who got these horse for one reason, so who is close minded? we have even offered suggestions as to how it "could" work but you stomp on them because your not getting your way


[QUOTE]and please
go to www.usatta.org and you a little research where the trot and galop came from so you can see how related it is to a fino horse, and thats why then need to compete at the same shows.[/QUOTE

i went to the site and read every page, the site makes the Paso Fino seem an after though so after readings you information i can make a very informed comment that that is the trote/ and trocha horse are a more diagonal gaited to trot horse they do not belong along side a more lateral truely gaited horse

because they road on the same boat means zero, every studied any other breeds? try studing the Mustang and where they can from then study the QH and the Walking horse or the Morgan, you will see they all are from a simpaler start they rode over on a boat ever horse did there were no horses in the Americas none they all came from the west or east, and once here the people of the regoins develope the horse that best suited there needs that is how they are differant they were cumton made buy the people that cared about what was being bred in these times you were lucky or rich if you had a horse so you did the best by them breeding was selective

the paso horses were developed in 3 ways all differant and w/ enough differants that is is noticable because 2 move in the some what the same fashion(the diagonals) makes sence that they would stay together but the Paso Fino does not move this way its movement if closest to any would be the purvian but though the simalar both of these breeds are happy to stand on there own,

whats kinda odd is the trot/ trocha horses are not willing to stand on there own they want to ride on coat tails and tell us we must accept them, why help some one that does not help themselves we'de all comment we wish ATTA well and would not mind aiding in areas but we are not wanting to share our PFHA

[pasosx3]

Confepaso report to the BOD Jan 2009:


[CENTER]REPORT TO PFHA BOARD OF DIRECTORS
CONFEPASO – JANUARY 2009



The issue of the American Trocha & Trote Association was thoroughly discussed. It was unanimously decided that since CONFEPASO’s By-Laws do not allow independent entities as members, the issue of ATTA would not be brought again to CONFEPASO unless their By Laws are amended.



The Board unanimously ratified that both seats representing the United States as member of CONFEPASO belong to PFHA.


Respectfully submitted:

José M. Laracuente
PFHA Delegate to CONFEPASO

Cindy, no one is disputing that PFHA currently has 2 Delegate Seats with Confepaso. What has been left out of Dr. Laracuente's Report are the conditions that are attached to PFHA's ability to KEEP AND MAINTAIN both of the Seats. Why is PFHA denying that this is the case? Perhaps the wool is being pulled over YOUR eyes????

But, I'm willing to play the game....let's all just PRETEND that there are no conditions attached to PFHA being able to keep both seats. Now answer this: Then why is PFHA allowing the Diagonals now? Is it because PFHA WANTS the diagonals in their Shows? Is it because PFHA now WANTS to promote the diagonal breeds in the USA? Is it because the Members of PFHA all of sudden have a Passion for the Diagonal horses?

[Cindy]

So your contention is that Dr Laracuente is misleading the PFHA Board Of Directors?

[pasosx3]

Confepaso report to the BOD Jan 2009:


[CENTER]REPORT TO PFHA BOARD OF DIRECTORS
CONFEPASO – JANUARY 2009


A brief summary of what the Task Force appointed by Ms. Robin Ratliff, PFHA President has done and will submit to the Board today under the title of PFHA BOARD OF DIRECTORS POLICY ON OTHER MODALITIES was presented to the Board of CONFEPASO. It was extremely well received with comments that we are doing more than they expected.


Respectfully submitted:
José M. Laracuente
PFHA Delegate to CONFEPASO


I would like to point out that what was presented to the Board of Confepaso by Dr. Laracuente, the PFHA Confepaso Delegate, was significantly and substantially different than what was actually Passed by the PFHA Board Of Directors at the January 2009 Meeting! I wonder if Confepaso has been made aware of that?

[Cindy]

So NOW you are saying the Dr. Laracuente is misleading Confepaso?

[pasosx3]

So NOW you are saying the Dr. Laracuente is misleading Confepaso?

No, I am not. I am stating that what he presented at that time is not what the PFHA BOD ultimately voted for. The PFHA BOD changed the Proposal and voted for a modified Proposal.

[pasosx3]

So your contention is that Dr Laracuente is misleading the PFHA Board Of Directors?

I think the PFHA Leadership is misleading its Members.

[pasosx3]

Cindy, you still haven't answered my Questions so I will re-state them:



But, I'm willing to play the game....let's all just PRETEND that there are no conditions attached to PFHA being able to keep both seats. Now answer this: Then why is PFHA allowing the Diagonals now? Is it because PFHA WANTS the diagonals in their Shows? Is it because PFHA now WANTS to promote the diagonal breeds in the USA? Is it because the Members of PFHA all of sudden have a Passion for the Diagonal horses?

[pasosx3]

And, Cindy, you still have yet to address these Questions so I will restate them, too.



And, Cindy, tell us again, why does PFHA want both Confepaso Delegate Seats? Does PFHA want to embrace the diagonals? Does PFHA want to give the diagonals equal status within the PFHA organization? And, why does PFHA want the diagonal owners and trainers to be Members of PFHA? And, will the Diagonals be able to advertise in the PFHA Horse World Magazine? And, will there be Articles written in the PFHA Horse World Magazine about the diagonal horses and the point standings and earnings, etc? Thanks in advance.

[Cindy]

You will have to ask someone who voted for the issue why they voted the way they did. I personally do not care one way or the other. My job is to vote the way my regional members tell me to vote. My regional members felt that the issue should have been taken through the proper channels of a rules change proposal and it was not so I voted no. No to the suspension of the rules and no to the vote on the validation certificates. You see, you and I agree about more than we disagree about.

But your statements continue to be confusing to me. First you state that there was information left out of Dr. Laracuente's report to the BOD in January and that perhaps "the wool was being pulled over MY eyes". And then you say that, no, you do not think that Dr. Laracuente is misleading the BOD that in fact you think that the BOD is misleading everyone else. Since I happen to be ON the BODs, how can I be misleading ANYONE when I have just posted the facts that you asked me for but then you say the facts are wrong. So who SHOULD I get my facts from, you? The ATTA who wants to take one of the seats? Or Dr. Laracuente who actually KNOWS the facts? You tell me what makes the most sense. The issue of the diagonals one way or the other does not affect me, my life, my horses or my family. I have no dog in this fight.

[CarolU]

Just a question...but why should an organization in the U.S. with less then 200 horses have a seat equal to PFHA, which represents 40,000 horses and their owners (most of whom are also in ATTA)? There are other Paso Fino (the gaited breed) registries with more horses - they just aren't being anal about getting a seat. Maybe there should be more seats. One for the Pure PR horse Assn. one for the Spanish Jannet, one for the Largo horses, one for the old registry. There are lots of groups with more horses in North America then ATTA. Why should they get special treatment?

And if Confepaso really does represent all the gaited breeds of Spanish heritiage, then we should includ the Peruvians, Merchadors, Spanish Barbs, etc. at the table.

[CarolU]

Gheesh...remember how much simpler life was when there were two different breeds, breed associations, and shows?

Sounds to me like we should give this up as a bad idea.

Rule changes are this January people....get your proposals in now. I quit PFHA when they decided to allow mutilated horses, so it's up to the rest of you....you'll get my total, vocal support though.!

[pasosx3]

I personally do not care one way or the other. My job is to vote the way my regional members tell me to vote. My regional members felt that the issue should have been taken through the proper channels of a rules change proposal and it was not so I voted no. No to the suspension of the rules and no to the vote on the validation certificates. You see, you and I agree about more than we disagree about.

The issue of the diagonals one way or the other does not affect me, my life, my horses or my family. I have no dog in this fight.

But you see, Cindy, the difference between you and me is that, unlike me, you are in a position of Leadership, as a Board Member, within the PFHA Organization. You do not have the luxury of essentially throwing your hands up and saying "Hey, I tried. I don't care, it doesn't affect me, etc...". You have a duty and an obligation to each of the PFHA Members, whether they are in your Region or not. You accepted this duty, like it or not, when you accepted the Board position. And this goes for all of the other Board Members, too.

So, if you (and I know there are other Board Members) feel the Mission, Purpose, By-Laws and Procedures of the Organization are being violated in any way, you have an Obligation to do something about it. If you and the other like-minded Board members are not willing to do this, perhaps you each need to step aside because by not doing anything, you are being complicit. Your statements also reveal a complacency, too and being complacent should not ever be an option for a person of Leadership Status!

Cindy, I do appreciate your willingness to speak up about this issue as you have done regarding other issues, too. You seem to be one of the only ones willing to speak publicly and that does mean something. But, don't stop there. PFHA is at a pivotal point in its history. And, while you may only be interested in the Paso Fino Paso horse, I am concerned about the future of ALL of the Paso horse modalities in the USA. We are all at pivotal points.

This is a general comment, not directly at Cindy:
Regarding Miss Yessenia's (aka Gerol...) comments about all of this.

Obviously she is getting her information from Somewhere. She is not just making this stuff up! And, since, if I am correct, she resides in one of the most powerful PFHA Regions in the country, I have to give her credibility. If she is wrong in what she says, then the PFHA President or the BOD jointly needs to write a Public Statement refuting these rumours/allegations/ what ever you want to call them. When the President refuses to speak up, I (and many of us) assume there is truth to what she says. That is part of what I mean about the PFHA BOD misleading its Members (and yes, Dr Laracuente is a Board Member, too, is he not?).

[Siggy]

I have to admit, I was a bit taken a back to see a board member. and judge say she doesnt care and is not effected by what is going on within the association in reference to changing the status of recognition of diagonals in an association that does not have bylaws, rules or standards to recognize them.

I can see Cindy's point in that she will not be dealing directly with the diagonals in any way (training, or showing), so it does not effect her. And she did vote as her region wanted but it is disheartening to know that our BOD does not have wider vision and concerns within the association.

I dont believe that the current way the BOD and association run is an effective one, but that is yet another discussion.

I do applaud Cindy for stating her position personally.

[Cindy]

First of all, you have no idea the things that I do within this Association to right wrongs that I see so please do not assume that you do. I disagreed with the decision to suspend the rules therefore I would not vote for it. But that is far from believing that it was not within the scope of the BOD to do so. The members of the BOD were voted in by the regions that they represent and ARE the policy making entity of this Association. If they are not representing their members then their members should find someone who will.

And, no, Dr Laracuente does not sit on the Board Of Directors. As far as the information that Yessenia is getting, that concerns me as well. That is why I stepped in the firing line in order to say what I did knowing full well that I would bear the brunt of the current assault by doing so. And I gave he the CORRECT information and was in fact assaulted for it and basically told in not so many words that I was an idiot who did not know the truth and was having the wool pulled over my eyes. So, hey, you guys go on and believe whatever it is that you want to believe.

I really try to avoid entering these discussion as they always just make me sad. You say that the President will not speak out on this subject, have you asked him? I spoke up and still you CHOOSE to believe the contrary information that you have been given and argue with me even after I give you the proof that you asked for. So is it really that none of the leadership will speak up? Or is it that some people choose to only hear those things that they want to hear?

[Cindy]

I have to admit, I was a bit taken a back to see a board member. and judge say she doesnt care and is not effected by what is going on within the association in reference to changing the status of recognition of diagonals in an association that does not have bylaws, rules or standards to recognize them.

I can see Cindy's point in that she will not be dealing directly with the diagonals in any way (training, or showing), so it does not effect her. And she did vote as her region wanted but it is disheartening to know that our BOD does not have wider vision and concerns within the association.

I dont believe that the current way the BOD and association run is an effective one, but that is yet another discussion.

I do applaud Cindy for stating her position personally.

Siggy and Becky, my statement that I do not have a dog in this fight was not meant to mean that I do not care about the effect on the Association. It was meant to state to you that my ONLY concern in this matter is FOR the good of the Association and what the membership wants as I have nothing to either gain or loose personally from the decision that is made. God it is tiresome when everyone assumes the worst in every discussion. I don't think one has total objectivity in the matter if one is a breeder of diagonals and a member of the ATTA. That would be "having a dog in this fight". Hope this clarifies a bit.

[Siggy]

OK, so can you tell some of us the GOOD of the association that comes from suspending the rule to bypass membership input
and the good of bringing diagonals in to an association for showing that has no other recognition or acceptance of them anywhere in bylaws etc.

I know you personally do not control any of it but what good has come of it?

Thank you

[Red Ryder]

I just read this thread for the first time and I have some questions
---Why does the ATTA even want to be a part of PFHA??
What are the advantages for ATTA?
The disadvantages?
---Is it only the Show crowd pushing ATTA to be under the PFHA wing???
For what purpose?
---Why is it an advantage to PFHA to include ATTA and have classes in their shows??
---Is it being suggested that ATTA horses would be in the same registry as PFHA horses?
if so why??
---What Country [mostly] controls Confepaso

now some personal thoughts

---I have no problem with ATTA Registry being run out of the PFHA office as a separate registry.
PFHA needs the $$$$ income
---I have no problem with separate classes being held at a PFHA show so long as everyone understands
these are not PFHA registered horses. Might actually spice up the shows a bit. I for one find
it very boring to set through Show Pleasure, Show performance, and Fino with basically these classes
being broken down by horses ages, class of rider, age of rider etc. Boring Boring.
I mainly go to shows now to meet up with friends and see a few classes to see what's happening.
---I have a choice as to what classes I watch and what horses I own.
---Having some ATTA horse classes will initially bring new interest, but after a few years
again of the same old, same old, the crowd will be just as bored.
---Lets face it there is 2 different breeds of Paso owners
One being the show crowd and PFHA could not survive without them
The other being the pleasure crowd that trail ride, and what they pay PFHA can't possibly support
anything but a registry run by one person and it would be a registry only.
I'm not knocking either as I do some of both and get the benefits of both groups.

I'm not trying to force my thoughts or position on anyone just stating my feelings and don't even want to get into running battle.

I'm done. Thanks to those that have stated their views, pro or con.

[motorgypsy]

Thank you Cindy for being willing to stand in the firing line. I would never accuse you of backing down from a legitimate battle just because it is easier. You do fight for the best of the breed and association.

Now back to the diagonals etc etc. The bottom line is always money and power. Looking back I personally think this happened because there was a fear that the new association - can't remember the name of it - international paso horses or something - did include the diagonals and this is PFHA's attempt at trying to hold members and avoid splitting a breed that is far too small to split at this point in its development. This is really not a bad motive by the way.

The question might better be - in whose interest is it really to start a second paso organization in the first place? Obviously someone or ones decided they didn't like what was being done by PFHA, could not get elected into a position to do anything about it and decided to go play in another sandbox where they could do things the way they wanted to. Which of course they have every right to do - but as hard as PFHA has worked to support the show people including allowing tail cutting one would think there would be a little more gratitude.

So in response PFHA has added the diagonals and by doing so has removed a reason for those who breed both types to leave PFHA completely at least. Not a bad move actually as long as it isn't done in a way that will damage the public perception of what the paso fino is.

Well it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out. And the diagonal breeders can certainly get a lot more publicity and make lots of money on their remarkedly beautiful horses, which again is not a bad thing.

So if this makes any sense or not - it was written by a stressed out sleep deprived, geezer who also has no personal gain or loss in the final outcome of this debate.

[Lori Perez]

(whisles) all this work to tee off a judge... got to admit girls got guts..... wheres the popcorn munching smiley

and its were no wonder we don't want to embrace trotters we have negitive conserns and all anyone with trotters can do is keep shoving them down our throats its like By gosh you'll like it or get the flip out

ever heard the phrase catch more flys w/ honey than vinager? well thats what is happening here, many in the USA that have PFHA Paso Finos do not want trotters in the membership org. but them staying with ATTA as a seprate and working w/ PFHA i believe would most likey get a much more welcome responce,maybe not i'm guessing

but the constant nah nah we're here to stay,from the trotting folk is making it one hard pill to choke down its discussions and threads like these that make the exception of them even harder.

and again look at the # of horses we are talking about!!!!!!!!! Lori Perez gave a # of how many trot/trocha horses there were in the USA and its like 200+ thats it,thats all in the 10+ yrs they've been here that all its gotten to be??????!!!!! and where are they located? how many are outside of Florida? what else do you do with these horse other than show them? can they be trail ridden? not the i'm taking my show horse for a jont through the woods but really ridden all day with other riders and for many miles(i've heard they are nothing but a show ring horse is that true?)

so what else can they do? USA American Paso Finos have done shows,endurance,competive trail,barrels and many other activites that they perform well in even our fino horses have been able to win a largo race now and then, that shows versitility

Nicole where do you hear these things??? The only thing you are close to in the number of horses & the fact the association was formed in 2001. Yes they are located in most every state. All this information was provided to Dr. Laracuente by me. Of course they can be trail ridden, they were orignally bred for working in the mountains and the fact they were still smooth & could cover great distances. They can do everything else any other horse breed can do (very similar as to what we say about our Paso Fino horses). I am not going to get into a "fight" with you. I am only attempting to offer you with some information. I will not try to change your outlook on this.

We are a small but growing organization; the ATTA has NEVER requested to be combined with PFHA's registry. We have only been requesting (this is not something new that just came up this year or last year) representation as Confepaso outlines for all countries that are members of the federation. If you knew how it has been for us then maybe you would not be so quick to judge.

And, It is not about the Colombians, or other Countries. Americans were the ones who formed the ATTA association. The majority of the people who worked on the Board were Americans. They are Americans who are purchasing these
horses. So please everyone, lets not make this about pointing fingers at someone or trying to blame someone else. BB forums only represent a tiny fraction of how the whole membership feels on both sides of ANY issue at hand.

[motorgypsy]

To any of you who have not seen the diagonals "up close and personal" - PLEASE do not think that those who don't think combining the diagonals with PFHA (not the same as helping ATTA by offering some classes and some publicity at PFHA shows and contructing rules to make sure this is done in a way that is good for both PFHA and ATTA) is a good idea is in any way an indication that the diagonals are considered "inferior" to the paso fino. This is far far from the truth. They are amazing. I get chills every time I watch one. They are just diagonals - which is not a bad thing - but they don't do the even four beat gait - obviously.

But muddying the identity of a small and not very well known breed can be done if this PFHA association with the diagonals is not done very very carefully - and that will not be good for anyone.

[Serendipity]

diagonals are considered "inferior" to the paso fino.

i do not believe anyone believes this to be true, every one knows that every breed has its place and what jobs its best at and peoples that are best suited to them

the problem you have is as they are all if a "paso" nature soooooo paso people tend to own them and paso people are very passionate about there pasos, no matter what type they are Paso Fino,Trocha.Trote,PPR,and even most likey purvians

so again the your way or the highway speach does little to aid the ajoinment, I hope the Diagonals well heck I even like Don Pepe, But i like him at an ATTA horse not a PFHA horse, I would want to see him at an ATTA show not a PFHA show. its like comparing apples to bananas

why is this so hard? why is it ATTA can't put on there own shows? Why can't the diagonals be there own breed? and again if pfha is so bad why keep forcing the issue? all honest questions

and it is said as w/ the horses that are ridden in a Fino class, you can ride them on the trail but they do not make good trail horses because they don't go anywhere or have good extention how ever you want to say it, it they do i's like to see pix of one moving out not one a fino board and not in super tight collection a trail horse version lets say just to see one, pix please no video as i can not view video online

[SandyMM]

We have only been requesting ... representationTwp questions:
What form of representation would satisfy ATTA?
Should it be proportional to the number of diagonal horses compared Paso Fino horses in this country?

[pasosx3]

and it is said as w/ the horses that are ridden in a Fino class, you can ride them on the trail but they do not make good trail horses because they don't go anywhere or have good extention how ever you want to say it, it they do i's like to see pix of one moving out not one a fino board and not in super tight collection a trail horse version lets say just to see one, pix please no video as i can not view video online

Serendipity: If you ever get the chance to watch a Trote y Galope Geldings Class that is Judged under Confepaso Rules you will get to see exactly what you are talking about! Those classes, I think, are so much fun to watch! Here's why: Under the ideals of Confepaso-type rules, the Stallion and Mares Classes are Judged with the goal of finding the mare or stallion that best meets the Standard of the Breed, for breeding purposes (propagation). Since Geldings can't breed and are used as "working" horses or as "using" horses, they judge the horse for its "workability" and the Class Rules reflect that.

Here's what I mean: The rider has to demonstrate the Trote gait and the Galope gait just like in the Mares and Stallion Class. I think they also have to do the Serpentine and Figure 8 in both gaits (I don't remember).

But, in the Gelding Class, the rider also has to dismount and remount. This is required in order to demonstrate that the horse has good manners. The other thing the rider has to do is Gallop (not galope which is a canter, but gallop) the horse, full speed and bring the horse to a full stop! This demonstrates the ability of the horse to be a "using" horse, for speed work that would be required on a Ranch, etc.

I love to watch the Trote and Galope Gelding classes! I think they are fun! So, you see, the Diagonals are very much versatile horses. But,you must remember, that under International Style (ie Confepaso) rules, the Objectives for the Judging is not the same as it is under PFHA-style Judging rules. I can understand tho why people might think the horses are limited in their use if they are basing this judgment on what they see only in the Show Rings where PFHA Rules or modified Confepaso rules are used.

By the way, I own a Trote y Galope Stallion who happens to be the current IPHF US National Champion Trote y Galope Stallion. I am riding him in a very relaxed way, using only a snaffle bit and we are currently getting ready to go on a Fox Hunt!

[Cindy]

The gelding classes are fun to watch. And fox hunting, very cool. Are you doing the jumps on the hunt as well? That could be a great market for the TyG horses.

[Serendipity]

that would be fun to see, I like going fast, slowing down seems to be our trouble ;) (i'm still working on that)

hmmmm galloping in western pleasure....... now that would be a blast or doing some slides, Cindy rule change,LOL :)

I've always wanted to do a fox hunt, what fun, Sandy!!!!!!!! I chased your cows now lets find a fox hunt! LOL

[pasosx3]

The gelding classes are fun to watch. And fox hunting, very cool. Are you doing the jumps on the hunt as well?

Apparently these aren't 'traditional' Fox Hunts--no Red Coats or Tall Boots required. And, I am not *planning* on Jumping....I plan on going around anything that might require jumping. (I have zero desire to jump--I'm too old for that). I've been working on extended trote and extended galope and transitioning to the collected Trote and collected Galope, etc. It's all new to me, but so far, I'm having fun!

I heard a story once about a Trote y Galope horse in Colombia that was being used in the City as a cart horse. Someone bought him and began Jumping him and he went on to become an award-winning Jumper! (I don't think I really want my stallion to know he can jump fences if he wanted to. LOL).

[pasosx3]

I've always wanted to do a fox hunt, what fun, Sandy!!!!!!!! I chased your cows now lets find a fox hunt! LOL

Chasing cows sounds like fun, too! Someday I'll give that a try....

[pnalley]

It's called Hill Topping. That is when you go along be hind the real fox hunters and you typically go MUCH slower. You can choose to jump or not. I would if they had an tiny 18 ' jumps. In our area you MUST wear a helmet and you MUST never past the Hunt Master. In can be big fun. I do know one lady that puts these on very close to me. Nichole, Sandy, I can get info on it if you are game?

pasosx
You need to get your boy out in an open dressage compitition (training level). That would really get some heads turned. And get people that haven't heard of the breed, interested.

[SandyMM]

Nichole, Sandy, I can get info on it if you are game?I'm game.... depending on the heat index.....;);););););)

[Serendipity]

yes find something in the fallish after Nat'ls,lol

[pasosx3]

pasosx
You need to get your boy out in an open dressage compitition (training level). That would really get some heads turned. And get people that haven't heard of the breed, interested.

Thank you for the suggestion! I will certainly keep that in mind!