Trote Y Galope Classes Open Discussion

[jackymac]

Out of respect for other members of this forum, I decided to move my post from the previous thread and started my own thread!!

First let me make it clear that I am not against PFHA, I am just not found of their politics, judging and dedication of proper marketing of the breed. I also do not agree that I should have to pay $125 dollars to have my horse certificate validated by PFHA so that I can show my stallion, I already have Bolero registered with ATTA, and PFHA is using this as a revenue generator and I believe lots of people don’t agree with this fee. The main reason we did not take Bolero to the National is because we did not show him at any PFHA shows and I did not want to take him to the LAST CHANCE show to get him qualified for the NATIONAL, it should be a requirement that your horse whether is Paso Fino or Trote Y Galope should show several different times a year in order to qualify for the NATIONAL. My opinion!!!

I will use this as an example, for those of you who know my fiancé Tres you know that he is a Champion Powerboat Offshore racer. In order to qualify they had to participate in minimum of three races with enough points to make it to the National in Key West, should be the same for show horses. How fair would it be to the racers who raced all year and spent lots of money to qualify if they had a race called LAST CHANCE that anybody could go to qualify so that you may possibly compete against the ones that showed all year? That is MY OPINION!!!!!!

As a business owner we took a decision to take Bolero to the IPHF show in Miami, we felt it was a better benefit to our farm and it proves so, 7 great stallions, viewing all over the world (DIRECTV), great judging system, PRIME TIME SHOW and PRIZE MONEY. The bleachers were full at Prime Time, no place to seat down and the people were there to see the Trote Y Galope and Paso breed. Now on the other hand, PFHA the Trote Y Galope class was on Thursday morning 9:30 when the seating capacity used was at 1%, what exposure is that for our breed? Not to be taken out of context but the horse that took Reserve National Champion did not meet the requirements of the class and it was easy to see that the horse walked around the small little cones of the figure 8, poor collection and lack of energy and his mane alone did not represent the breed, given Reserve National Champion to a horse that did not meet the requirements is a bad example for the breed and how poor the judging was.

Last but not least, I do not want to upset or offend anybody by anything I stated here, it is my opinion and it is not intended to hurt, or make anybody angry. They are my feelings as a member of PFHA and IPHF and ATTA. Next year our intentions are to travel to other states and participate in some of the PFHA organized events such as Piedmont Asheville NC and Gainesville GA. We will premier our own home grown fino colts and filly hahahah!!!. This past year we did a few exhibitions with Bolero to promote the Trote Y Galope breed and next year after huge demand we will show more of our stallion Bolero.

Maybe PFHA should move the costume class on Thursday morning and move the Trote Y Galope Breed on Saturday Night; it may make a greater venue and audience???? Just my idea!!!! 

This is my opinion and I do not intend to upset and angry anyone!!!! :-)



__________________
Jacky McDaniel
Wildflower Paso Fino
& Trote Y Galope
Ocala FL
Home of Bolero de Sierra Morena

[pnalley]

Thank you.

[Siggy]

paying for the certificate helps with the administrative functions to track points and provide the additional classes etc.

There are no other sources of revenue from the diagonals (ie: registration, transfers, stallion reports etc) so if you can come up with a better way to finance the diagonals I am sure others would be interesyed in hearing it, or do you feel that Paso Fino revenue should fund the diagonals?

[SandyMM]

A show set in South Florida - no surprise it was well-attended.

I erased the rest of my opinions... other than to say that I, for one, would be perfectly happy if PFHA had no connection whatsoever to the diagonals and spent its revenue and time on better rules, promoting and enforcing the rules in effect, ensuring that _all_ judges adhere to our association rules when judging association classes, and promoting Paso Fino gaited horses - as originally intended - for those of us who own/breed/ride/exhibit them and support PFHA in this country.

Erasing the rest of my treatise saves Paula or other mods from having to do it for me.....;)

[Lori Perez]

paying for the certificate helps with the administrative functions to track points and provide the additional classes etc.

There are no other sources of revenue from the diagonals (ie: registration, transfers, stallion reports etc) so if you can come up with a better way to finance the diagonals I am sure others would be interesyed in hearing it, or do you feel that Paso Fino revenue should fund the diagonals?

Annual membership fees are paid to cover things like that (the owner must be a member of PFHA ) In addition, PFHA will get paid for any transfers; just like every other transfer. The cost of entry fee paid helps pay for the additional class. Also there is a fee paid at the shows now for the "show secretary" this is to cover the admin cost of the paperwork that has to be prepared and submitted to PFHA. So, again can we please stop making assumptions.

Sure PFHA is not going to get rich over charging $125 for a handful of horses, but I do think it was done for strategic reasons, a way to get around the rules and to be able to show Confepaso that yes, they are in "compliance" if that is what you want to call it. I have no cold hard facts, only what I have experienced with this project over the last year.

Sandy - Hey, we don't want it to be a battle. We also own and love and promote Paso Fino horses, we truly wish that things could have worked out better with PFHA (A LONG TIME AGO). I think this mis-directed anger and fustration from some people about why the diagonals are at PFHA shows should be addressed to PFHA not the owners of the horses.

Jacky, thank you for attempting to explain your position. I think your intentions in your prior post about the Trote class may have been misunderstood.

[Lori Perez]

A show set in South Florida - no surprise it was well-attended.

I erased the rest of my opinions... other than to say that I, for one, would be perfectly happy if PFHA had no connection whatsoever to the diagonals and spent its revenue and time on better rules, promoting and enforcing the rules in effect, ensuring that _all_ judges adhere to our association rules when judging association classes, and promoting Paso Fino gaited horses - as originally intended - for those of us who own/breed/ride/exhibit them and support PFHA in this country.

Erasing the rest of my treatise saves Paula or other mods from having to do it for me.....;)

Where else would you have a show like that, the majority of the Paso horses are located down in the S.E.! Where else would get the public support? This was excellent for the breed. It was a event that made history for our breed. It was the first time it was ever on Prime Time Live TV & big prize money! People should be saying yippie for our breed, maybe we will get more exposure from this, maybe I will be able to sell a horse, maybe someone learned something about our breed! I don't see anyone else sticking their necks out to do this, so why not?

[Siggy]

Is the trot & Gallop horse smooth when not highly collected and in the showring?

Are there current uses besides the showring for this modality? Are they still working ranch horses?

What is the current breeding trend in Colombia vs the USA?

Thanks

[jackymac]

Lori thank you for the explanation!

We also own eleven beautiful paso fino and love to show them, we have been showing our horses for the past five years whcih is a lot less than most of you but I am sure you know how expensive it is to show you horses, lots of expenses comes with it and we love to show but after 5 years of paying I have not seen any improvement or changes with PFHA.

SandyMM,

WE do own/breed/exhibit Paso Fino as well as Trote Y Galope. Tres and I have done several all breed shows to promote both Paso Fino and Trote Galope breed. And the responce was fantastic.

To answer you comments below!!! How is that going to improve when most of the judges are all trainers and farm owners? This is why they will never move forward " I will wash your back if you wash mine" if you are not in that circle and enter the show ring with a good horse you are OUT!!" There are a handfull of good judges but they are the ones that do not interact with the trainers or the farms or anybody. Again this is my opinion and do not want to offend anybody, it is our observation after several years in the show ring.

SandyMM quote"""spent its revenue and time on better rules, promoting and enforcing the rules in effect, ensuring that _all_ judges adhere to our association rules when judging association classes, and promoting Paso Fino gaited horses - as originally intended - for those of us who own/breed/ride/exhibit them and support PFHA in this country""""

[jackymac]

Is the trot & Gallop horse smooth when not highly collected and in the showring?

Thanks

Siggy,

I do not know you or where you are from but you are welcome to stop by our farm and get a feel for this great breed, I will let you ride my Bolero and you will be blown away. I personnaly love to ride my trote y galope everyday and rarely rides my paso anymore, they are fun on trail rides and fun at the shows. They get so much attention and people loves them.
But please if you get a chance you have to ride one you you will fall in love with them, they also have a great personality and love to please its rider.

Jacky :-)

[Siggy]

Sorry, too far away but would still like to know more about the breed. I know they are ridden by their owners but what is the breed profile right now? A show and demo horse?

[Terry Wallace]

Jacky...I could not AGREE with you more about qualifying for Nationals. The fact that a horse can qualify for Nationals by attending one show only, by garnering a ridiculously LOW number of points to qualify...is no where near "a good enough measure" for Nationals..."My opinion".
Thats WHY you see some horses at Nationals that really should not be there.

The number of points to qualify should be raised considerably....like somewhere around 200 points..."My opinion". AND...earned from MORE THAN ONE SHOW....

Not only that...but truly points should be given on a pro-rata scale to really MEAN something...example> points given needs to be dependant upon how many horses are in the class. If you have but three horses in the class...then the winner of that class needs to be on a pro-rata basis.....My opinion. No way...(in the case of)...a single horse in a class should garner more than one point per judge for that class.
That horse had NO competition...no other horse to "measure up to"...

I don't like, nor do I think it fair ..that a person can actually "buy points" by simply putting their horses in every class they can....whether that horse is correct for the class or not. Example> entering the same horse in pleasure AND performance when the horse is clearly one or the other and NOT both.... yet this happens a lot of the time and the horse is rarely excused for being in the "wrong" class. Now, in fairness..I have seen a horse get excused from a pleasure class because it was clearly a performance horse, but it is rare to see that very often.
JMO

The smaller the show and the less horses there...the easier it is to enter everything and garner points that otherwise would not have been given if a pro-rata system had been followed. This current practice allows "not so good" horses to garner TOP's and LOM's that really should not have been....again..."my opinion". (PFHA could LEARN something from other breed registries like AQHA for example).

[Siggy]

with that number of points required, there is no way that breeders in smaller regions could point in for nationals. You would see only horses from Florida or the deep south at nationals because there are not enough shows to compete in at other locals.

I think a fairer way to nationals is number of placements (first through third say) so that only the top horses in any region are going. As it is now, if you get enough 5th place points at enough shows you can still go to nationals in that class, this means that lower ranked horses are going.

Remember you need the points in each class you want to show in at nationals. So yes you can buy your way to the TOP etc but you have to have qualify in each division you want to show in each year for Nationals, not just have enough points in all classes combined.

[Terry Wallace]

with that number of points required, there is no way that breeders in smaller regions could point in for nationals.

I beg to differ...oh yes there is...its called "going on the road" and showing your horses wherever you can....

AQHA people do this all the time.... Besides...HOW are you going to know if your horse is as good as YOU think it is..if you do not compete with horses OUT of your "small region" area? AND...how does that help the breed at all to NOT do it?

I have seen quite a few people out here in this "small region" become the "nationals meal ticket" for some back east/east coast trainers who told them their horses were "good enough for nationals" (when they truly were not) not even make the first cut.

Now...dontcha think that... had those persons gone to a Nationals and seen the caliber of winning horses there, (or just shown out of their region a time or two) that they would have had a clearer picture as to what a nationals quality horse IS?

[Terry Wallace]

Siggy..I just want to mention...that this is the only breed I have ever had to ask questions as to HOW the horse became TOP, LOM or (what is the higest ranking called?) "Supreme Champion"....

Did that horse get its TOP points all at ONE show one day?
OR...did the TOP come from a season's haul around to many shows?

To me...to give a horse a TOP or LOM rating when that horse had no competition is very wrong.... that is why I'd like to see pro-rata or some kind of change (possibly like the one you have outlined) to be more fair for all.

Nationals is supposed to be "the best of the best" horses....

[Siggy]

I agree you need to get ou t of your small region but AQHA has shows EVERYWHERE, you dont need to go half way across country to find the next large show.
The two breeds are no where comparable at this point. I do feel that there should be a regional requirements to hold enough events to get members to Nationals, and if the region is not able to support that then the smaller regions should have to combine (larger geographical area but fewer political, admin functions to support) Yes it would mean more road trips but perhaps a better representation of the horses available.
or there could be a West, Central and Eastern divisional championship, where the regions witin those divisions move on to compete against other regions in that division and then divisional champions can proceed on to Nationals. This is done in many sporting events for people and also many other breeds of animals. It is a progression of proving yourself that allows you to move on towards to the National level.

[jackymac]

I personally think that we should participate in three events and the points should be based on how many horses participate in the class and the horse should meet the requirements of the class.

This should help eliminate a lot of problems that we are having now.

Can this be done? do you think PFHA would even consider something like that?


my 2 cents! :-)

[jackymac]

Siggy..I just want to mention...that this is the only breed I have ever had to ask questions as to HOW the horse became TOP, LOM or (what is the higest ranking called?) "Supreme Champion"....

Did that horse get its TOP points all at ONE show one day?
OR...did the TOP come from a season's haul around to many shows?

To me...to give a horse a TOP or LOM rating when that horse had no competition is very wrong.... that is why I'd like to see pro-rata or some kind of change (possibly like the one you have outlined) to be more fair for all.

Nationals is supposed to be "the best of the best" horses....

To answer your questions and if you are refering to the Trote Y Galope class Thursday morning the horse that placed first and now National Champion got the points in a one day show but I am not sure about the second horse that placed Reserve National Champion as I have never seen him or know of him.

[Helene]

Terry, you have very, very valid (and honest) points, but I don't think we can compare the AQHA shows with Paso shows. As Siggy states, AQUA shows are pretty much everywhere every week or less. If you want to show your quarterhorse a show is pretty much "around the corner".
There are so many less Pasos, especially, around here where we live...Where is the a PFHA pointed show close to our parts? At least a 12 hours drive? Every time one would have to go that far or further. How many people could afford that? Time or moneywise. PFHA pointed shows are pretty expensive as it is.
That said....also by not being able to qualify because of lack of shows...that does not mean that all/most horses in our parts are not show worthy. Just because one does not have the avenues to show the horse all over the place, does not mean the horse is of bad quality. If the owner thinks his horse is show quality -- would it not be up to him to decide? He is spending the money and, possibly, might have to go home depressed.
If there are only two horses of one breed in the country....the first place horse IS a champion of that breed? Whether he deserves it or not: he is the better of the two. And even if he is the only one shown...he would be the champion. A champion is the winner of that specific show. He/she is the winner of the horses being exhibited, not necessarily of the entire breed.
I think it would not be a good idea if points to qualify were raised. It would be ok for TRUE competitions, but very detrimental to the breed. Pasos are still fairly low in numbers and if points were raised, many more Pasos would be excluded to compete. Our shows would become even smaller. I don't think it would be very cost-effective to have a national show at all. Less horses to compete= less money to run shows.
Personally, I commend ANY exhibitor who is willing to put him/herself "out there" -- spend money and time -- expose him/herself to extreme criticsm of his horse. Most shows are just that "shows". The REAL champion (the best of the breed) may be standing in someone's backyard not being shown, because of lack of money, lack of opportunity, lack of ambition.
I guess what I am trying to say is: a champion is the winner of a show, of the individuals being exhibited at that show, not the entire breed.

[Terry Wallace]

That said....also by not being able to qualify because of lack of shows...that does not mean that all/most horses in our parts are not show worthy. QUOTE]

I don't know what prompted that comment...but I sure did not say "horses in our parts are not show worthy".

[QUOTE]Just because one does not have the avenues to show the horse all over the place, does not mean the horse is of bad quality. If the owner thinks his horse is show quality -- would it not be up to him to decide? He is spending the money and, possibly, might have to go home depressed

Where did I say any horses were of "bad quality"? AND yes of course its up to the owner to decide and you bet they might just come home "depressed".

I think it would not be a good idea if points to qualify were raised. It would be ok for TRUE competitions, but very detrimental to the breed.
I feel it would be GOOD for the breed as it will weed out horses that should not be at Nationals in the first place.JMO

I guess what I am trying to say is: a champion is the winner of a show, of the individuals being exhibited at that show, not the entire breed. What I'm saying is that sometimes, when there are few horses exhibited in a show, that you have "champions by default" because they had NO competition...no real measure to go up against.

BTW...when I was showing AQHA horses in Colorado..there was NOT a show "around ever corner" and there still isn't.
Pardon me for using AQHA as an example...but I still think PFHA could learn a thing or two from AQHA! Like how to give out points FAIRLY, and how to really take care of its members, and how to promote the breed they represent to its fullest capabilities...instead of just "show, show, show".

PFHA needs to get with the program...come into the year 2009....JMO

[Siggy]

I counted 8 AQHA shows in Colorado for aug, sept & october alone.

but I do agree that they do a far better job promoting their entire breed and are far more inclusive of all types and qualities of their breed and all of their members and owners.
They have tremendous respect and care for their breed as an organization.

[Terry Wallace]

They have tremendous respect and care for their breed as an organization.

Yes they do!

I counted 8 AQHA shows in Colorado for aug, sept & october alone. 2.5 shows per month more or less..but that doesn't mean they are BIG shows either and that they are not lots of miles to drive to....
When I was showing QH...there was not near as many. I had to drive from Gunnison, Colo to whever the show was, and Colorado is a very big state..lots of miles to travel. Not like Florida where you probably have shows in 20-30 mile radius.

Point being...that if you were a "true" competitor...you drove a LOT...and you went on the road to show the horses.

The reason we don't have PFHA shows in Colorado anymore...is because no one will support them...so what does that tell you? It tells me there isn't a lot of interest in showing under PFHA rules. our Fun shows however, have had GOOD turn out this past season.

Someone had remarked that regions really need to change...to not have so many, and for them to be bigger out here (like include more states) and I'm all for that. It would give the region more financial input and stability.
We used to have Rocky Mountain Region in Wyoming, but it folded when I first got into Pasos...as there just was not enough support for them to stay viable. I went to their very last show. It was a poor turn out also.

Sooooo...how would someone out here make points with a Paso Fino NOW? They would have to go on the road....like lots of show folks do.

[Serendipity]

with that number of points required, there is no way that breeders in smaller regions could point in for nationals.

I agree w/ this take the fact that the PFHA shows are on Fri, Sat, Sun so you have to leave Thur if you want the whole show(2 shows i know) okay raising the points to 200 will knock out many people because unlike the past most owners have to have a job and few employers would let an employee off work 5 thur/fri yes they could use vaction time but but even that is unreasonable considering what Might be needed the rest of the yr and uses 5 because if some one showed in 1 class say COUNTRY PLEASURE and placed 1st every time they would earn 200 points now if they did not win well thats a diff story you'd have to add shows

another thing is if i haul to a show and have done everything to get there and i am the only one in the class, thats not my fault i showed up i competed if my horse did what the class required then i was the best horse that day in that class. i earned the points i was not DQ'ed or excused and did the class requirments per the judges. again it was not my fault no one else came to the class, I did

with that said i also agree that to get to Nat'l should take more then one show i would say 4 or 6 shows again our shows are 2 shows in one,so its 2-3 weekends Fri,Sat,Sun that is a lot more doable i believe in most cases, but w/ the drives your right we need to be in 2009 and gas is not cheap nor is a hotel, food,and everything else i know i paycheck did not increase when gas and food and feed started to climb when i stared showing gas was around $1.60 now its well over $2 and a bag of feed cost $9.99 an that same feed now cost $14 a bag.

i mention this because its a fine line between them we need to show comtepivly but we also need to understand that most have to drive 4-8hrs per show and the expences involved our best horses should not be owned only by the rich or overly wealthy

but as to the single horse classes or few in the class these may be great classes for the judge to be honest and tell the owner/rider that although this horse won today it at this time is or is not nat'l competive in their opinion or that there needs to be improvment if they intend to show at Nat'l
that way the rider that showed up to 3 plus shows and won most of the time is not blind sided when they DO go to Nat'ls and don't make the cut because again they did what was required they showed and showed up its not their fault no one else did

just my 2 cents and speaking from one that does show, and in the lower attented classes at times

[Siggy]

often the problem with genetic defects such as Impressive is inbreeding. Cloning does not perpetuate inbreeding unless the subject is already inbred. Often a line becomes heavily inbred near the end of the line or at the beginning of a line because it is all the rage. This is bad at both times because if at the beginning very little is known about the specific horse or line, and if near the end, it was often not used heavily earlier on to prove the line.

Resorte IV, while heavily line bred was already a proven sire before the USA discovered him, luckily for us. So far, there has not been a link between that line and any genetic problems. If people continue to narrow the genetics and inbreed deeply something could appear, although our breed does not seem to have known predispositions. Unless you count insulin resistence, something we need to watch for sure.

I see other favorable lines being linebred now, and in time both the show and the pleasure lines will continue to narrow their lines.

I often see breeders putting the same name on the pedigree because of popularity, they often do not have a goal in the linebreeding (ratio, or location on pedigree), they simply want the name to appear as often as possible. A very pathetic way to build a breeding program

[Serendipity]

I think this posted in the wrong thread ;)

[Carol Nelson]

although our breed does not seem to have known predispositions. Unless you count insulin resistence, something we need to watch for sure.

Is there a predisposition to this in this breed???

[Siggy]

I think that being easy keepers, and the way North Americans feed this breed play in to it, but yes I think there is. Look at the rate of founder, overweight and actual diagnosed insulin resistent horses just on this forum alone. then read some of the other forums and the forums for IR and other metabolic problems

[Helene]

No Terry, I did not mean that you said there was less quality here... I know you know better....I apologize if I wrote it so you could misunderstand it that way.
BUT -- I still don't think one can compare a breed with 1 1/2 million horses with a breed of under 100,000. How many Pasos do you think are just here in Colorado? High estimate of maybe 100? 200? 300? How many quarter horses? I know we have "oodles" of them just in our little town....
I commend anyone who has the passion to show his/her horse and they should get something for their effort, even if it is the only entry in a class and it is a title....The easier it is for a competitor to compete, the more competitors....classes get bigger and the title means more. More shows are offered and demand for Pasos might go up, making demand for shows go up....
In an ideal world only the best of the best are shown, I agree....but if it is not easily possible for all specimen (and I mean each and everyone) to show. The best has to be picked from the ones being shown. So, it would be smart to make it as easy as possible for anyone with the desire to go ahead and show.
It would not be a good idea, financially and otherwise, for an association to limit the number of competitors at its National Show. Classes would be even smaller and cost per horse even larger.

[pasosx3]

but as to the single horse classes or few in the class these may be great classes for the judge to be honest and tell the owner/rider that although this horse won today it at this time is or is not nat'l competive in their opinion or that there needs to be improvment if they intend to show at Nat'l
that way the rider that showed up to 3 plus shows and won most of the time is not blind sided when they DO go to Nat'ls and don't make the cut because again they did what was required they showed and showed up its not their fault no one else did



1). I've said this before, the International Style (ie. Confepaso) Judging rules ALLOW the Judges to leave placements VACANT if they do not believe the horse or horses that showed up that day to show are worthy of being in First Place or Second Place or even Third Place! With this system, it doesn't matter if there is one horse, or 3 horses, or 20 horses in the class. If none of the horses that showed up that day are worthy of a 1st Place or 2nd Place, etc, then no one gets any ribbons, or points, etc. This system "evens up" the playing field because the people in small regions and small shows can compete equally with horses from larger regions. This system also makes the Titles from the small regions actually mean something!

Now, I know someone is going to jump on this and say "well, what criteria are the judges using for the breed standard, blah, blah, blah...." Well, maybe we have to change the Judging Rules first then work on modifying the judging criteria and let the Judges Committee come to consensus on what they "should" be looking for....aren't the judges supposed to be the experts? We need to start somewhere...

2). Under the International Style Judging rules, the Judges are REQUIRED to explain their Placements and explain the reasons they choose not to place horses, if that's the case. So, the owner and rider actually get constructive feedback on how their horses performed.

3). I also agree that points to qualify for Nationals should come from more than one weekend of showing.

4). Also, it is utterly ridiculous that the horses that place 1st and 2nd in a Class are not REQUIRED to enter the Grand Championship class. It's also ridiculous that horses that place 4-6 or don't place at all can enter a championship class or Grand National Championship Class. Where is the pride in the Breed? The sincere desire to crown a Champion of Champions??? It's a joke. Under International Style Judging Rules, the 1st and 2nd Place horses HAVE to enter the Grand Championship Class or forfeit their Title and not be allowed to show for the rest of the year! That's how seriously the International community takes their Titles!

In America, it seems it's all about getting a 10 cent Ribbon for the owner. Folks, we are not in elementary school here, some of us are actually trying to get an idea of what the "ideal" paso horse should be and are looking to seasoned professionals and judges to help us with that. I know no system is perfect, but the International Style of Judging seems to me to be much better in so many ways.

For those of you who think the diagonal owners kept their horses away as a protest against PFHA, I will say only this: I kept mine away 1). because of my disagreement with the PFHA (American Style) Judging system, as I've pointed out above, and 2). because I didn't want to pay for a Validation Certificate and pay a fee to become a member of an Organization that doesn't put the breed first, but puts the owners first and the Judging rules are evidence of this, IMO.

[Helene]

QUOTE: "Sooooo...how would someone out here make points with a Paso Fino NOW? They would have to go on the road....like lots of show folks do."

Coloradans would have to go 12 hrs+ to one show (Oklahoma, Kansas, California, etc)....That is extremely unreasonable (time and cost wise), if you just want to see if your horse is competitive. AND it puts the horse and owner at a huge disadvantage as it takes time to acclimate. I see many people totally give up on shows.

And "like lots of show folks" drive only an hour or two...cutting time and money output considerably.

[pasosx3]

I commend anyone who has the passion to show his/her horse and they should get something for their effort, even if it is the only entry in a class and it is a title....

This should be called a FUN SHOW. If people want to show up and compete mediocre back yard horses, then fine, they should get their Gold Stars, oops, I mean, Ribbons. But, come on, when Breeders are selling/promoting these "titled" horses as Show Quality to unsuspecting ie newbie buyers? That disgraceful.

[Siggy]

I am very hopeful that IPF & ATTA can eventually form one entity with a registry. That way they can offer confepaso judging and all of the services that PFHA currently offer Paso Finos. Then owners can decide which association they want to register their horses with and each can have their own circuit independantly. This will more closely mirror the countries of origin and leave the owners and breeders a choice.

Once you have chosen your primary association there is no reason to slam the other:v:
but for now the international Paso Fino circuit is nothing more than a show circuit (like Grand Prix was) that offers no other services.

[Terry Wallace]

Helene..it really doesn't matter how many QH vs how many PF in Colorado those numbers are a moot point.....what matters is the PFHA point system is flawed. I know there are MANY PF owners and breeders that agree with this.

If the PFHA is to get any recognition at all...it needs to make things more fair for all. This awarding of so many points to a few horses showing in a class, is not fair to other members.

For example.... if you are showing Paso Finos in Florida (where more Paso shows are) and you are showing against lets say ten horses in a class.... then those horses who place 1,2 & 3 have likely EARNED that placing as they have shown against their "peers". Those horses being shown where more shows are...are much more subject to having to go up against more horses to earn those points.
It might take a horse showing on the "Florida Circuit" a year or more with many shows, to earn a TOP or an LOM rating. That person paying for all those shows "probably" had to spend I'm going to guess a good $3,000 or more on their way to achieving that goal.
If you have ten or more horses in a class...then no pro-rata system would be in force.

However...when you show a horse out here, in a class where there may be only ONE horse, or maybe two, even three horses, and that horse gets as many points as a horse who just went up against 10 horses...that is a very unfair advantage in my book.

When a horse here (out in the west where few people show), can be put into enough classes in ONE DAY to earn a rating of TOP....that is just plain wrong to me. The AQHA has figured this out long ago, and that is why they pro-rate points according to head count entered in the class..its to make it more FAIR to all members.

This has nothing to do with showing up and being the only one there with a horse and feeling "entitled" to recieve those points for merely showing up and entering/showing in a class. Hey..I've done that..I've gotten those points, I've qualified a horse for Nationals that had NO competition in his class...and I felt it was SO WRONG and I was on the recieving end of those points! But then..I "came from" AQHA...where things are "more fair" for all members.

Those points were not really EARNED...they were "delegated by default" because each class has to have a "winner"....(something I also don't agree with unless the horse was truly first place in his showing)
ONLY in a QH show have I ever seen a judge award a second premium ribbon to an only horse who enterd a class and was not good enough to earn a first premium ribbon.

Just remember that the person showing in Florida paid over $3K and invested a LOT of time and travel to get the same TOP that a person out here got for $300 in one day...and didn't even have to really EARN it... I ask you WHAT is FAIR about that?

What does this cause? To me, it causes some horses to be titled when they really should not have been....which I would view as being bad for the breed..the message it sends is "we don't know what we are doing". "We will let any horse into our national show that has enough points for that class...whether it ever showed against any other horse OR NOT!"

This is why I say PFHA is "behind the times". they do things their way..and this may lead to their eventual demise... JMO

[Terry Wallace]

1). I've said this before, the International Style (ie. Confepaso) Judging rules ALLOW the Judges to leave placements VACANT if they do not believe the horse or horses that showed up that day to show are worthy of being in First Place or Second Place or even Third Place! With this system, it doesn't matter if there is one horse, or 3 horses, or 20 horses in the class. If none of the horses that showed up that day are worthy of a 1st Place or 2nd Place, etc, then no one gets any ribbons, or points, etc. This system "evens up" the playing field because the people in small regions and small shows can compete equally with horses from larger regions. This system also makes the Titles from the small regions actually mean something!

THANK YOU PasosX3 !!! Thats what I'm talkin' about ...fairness...good judging...an even playing field! WHY doen't PFHA follow suit? This type of judging separates the wheat from the chaff! I have never seen a Confepaso show there are none out here...but I can sure understand WHY people "fear" them!!!! :v:
This type of judging insures the breed standard is KEPT....

[pnalley]

Great thread guys!!

[Terry Wallace]

Coloradans would have to go 12 hrs+ to one show (Oklahoma, Kansas, California, etc)....That is extremely unreasonable (time and cost wise),

Hey..that is "the breaks"...thats the breaks of showing..you either want to or you don't.....OR...you move closer to where those shows are if you are a serious competitor.... "location, location, location"...is KEY to many things.....it all comes down to priorities.

I still think points should not be given away because of "location" or lack thereof....JMO

Thats why PRCA cowboys FOLLOW the circuit..they don't sit around and wait for pro-rodeos to come to their town....

[Siggy]

Is IPF currently recognized by confepaso? Are their shows Confepaso recognized? Are the judges recognized?

I know that ATTA is recognized, are their shows and classes recognized and do the riders/owners qualify for Confepaso?

How are they currently pointed or recognized to participate in Confepaso events?

[Cindy]

There is no qualification other than the horse being registered with a recognized registry in order to compete in any Confepaso event. Nor is there any qualification required other than registration in order to compete in the IPHF Nationals.

[Terry Wallace]

There is no qualification other than the horse being registered with a recognized registry in order to compete in any Confepaso event. Nor is there any qualification required other than registration in order to compete in the IPHF Nationals.

Thats fine...because if you are showing Confepaso...you already know if you have "enough horse" to be there...
You won't be "experimenting much" with that type of judging. That type of judging IS looking for the best of the best already.....if there is NO "best"...they will let you know.....you won't be going home with blues unless the horse EARNED it.....no problem there.

apples and oranges...tangerines?

[Siggy]

lol unless the best has lots of white:v: oh but that is not here, only in countries of origin so you can qualify here but not show there if you have high white..

[Cindy]

Thats fine...because if you are showing Confepaso...you already know if you have "enough horse" to be there...
You won't be "experimenting much" with that type of judging. That type of judging IS looking for the best of the best already.....if there is NO "best"...they will let you know.....you won't be going home with blues unless the horse EARNED it.....no problem there.

apples and oranges...tangerines?

Same is true with our Nationals.

[Helene]

I still think numbers of horses in a breed is very important. As there is a large number of quarterhorses, there is a need of somehow "weeding" out lesser quality horses. If all were allowed to show, shows would be over-run, so it does make sense to install a point system, limiting the amount of horses that can show at their Nationals.
There just aren't many Paso Finos....To install a higher point requirement would really limit the amount of Pasos that would be shown, making shows less frequented, much less than they are now.
Now....shows are not only to find out the "best of the best"....OR???
could it be that shows are also a great avenue for trainers to show their work, for breeders to show their "products", for sellers to show their horses, for buyers to find horses, tack dealers......???

[Terry Wallace]

Siggy...I think anyone who knows me...knows that I don't like ALL Confepaso rules and the white marking rule is one.
That particular rule makes no sense at all to me now that color genetics are not so much a puzzle as they used to be.
We know that white markings as well as white hooves are NOT a weakness or genetic fault.

The white rule just flat makes no sense to me. The judging however...sure does make sense.

Cindy...are you saying that sometimes NO blue ribbon is awarded at class(es) at Nationals? Please elaborate...I have not ever seen that done at ANY PFHA show....

Helene..."weeding out" lesser quality horses applies to ANY breed regardless of numbers...I sure hope a judge would not place a horse "because there were few of them" .... or because there were too many of them.

[Helene]

Lesser quality horses....I think, actually, it would give greater satisfaction to winning -- the more horses are being shown in a class, even if they are of less quality...
Ideally, any horse should be able to compete (if the owner so desires)....makes the victory of the "best of the best" sweeter and more just--the more horses are being shown.
I understand the concept of regional shows to "weed" out horses of lesser quality, but if you really only have one show to go to (and it is early in the season, early in the horse's training, the horse is not ready, yet)...and classes at some shows are so small, because there are just not that many horses that are shown....It defeats the purpose, doesn't it: to find the best.
Currently, at Nationals....even if horses of lesser quality (horses that "shouldn't be there" are shown....the best in the class wins (according to the judges). Are you now saying....judges are unable to pick the best?
Cindy, I do understand you and agree.

[pasosx3]

Once you have chosen your primary association there is no reason to slam the other:

Why is discussing perceived flaws within an organizational system taken to mean it is being "slammed"? Are PFHA members that insecure??? I think the Emperor has no clothes....

[pasosx3]

THANK YOU PasosX3 !!! Thats what I'm talkin' about ...fairness...good judging...an even playing field! WHY doen't PFHA follow suit? This type of judging separates the wheat from the chaff! I have never seen a Confepaso show there are none out here...but I can sure understand WHY people "fear" them!!!! :v:
This type of judging insures the breed standard is KEPT....

Thank YOU, Terry. It's nice to know there are others who "get" this concept!

[pasosx3]

lol unless the best has lots of white:v: oh but that is not here, only in countries of origin so you can qualify here but not show there if you have high white..

First of all, IPHF/ATTA does not have color restrictions or markings restrictions.

Second of all, and correct me if I am wrong, I believe there has been a precedent set in the past whereby a pinto competed in a Confepaso Mundial in PR. So, the door's been opened there, maybe it can be addressed again...

[Siggy]

no a pinto did not compete in PR, that was in the USA, in pleasure, the first time mundial was here, first time ever for pleasure or A/O or color restrictions removed

[pasosx3]

no a pinto did not compete in PR, that was in the USA, in pleasure, the first time mundial was here, first time ever for pleasure or A/O or color restrictions removed

Ok. Thanks for the clarification. It was in the USA. Well, it's a start...perhaps there's hope the rule can be changed in the future? I don't have a problem with pintos, I always liked Little Joe's black and white pinto on Bonanza!

[jackymac]

1). I've said this before, the International Style (ie. Confepaso) Judging rules ALLOW the Judges to leave placements VACANT if they do not believe the horse or horses that showed up that day to show are worthy of being in First Place or Second Place or even Third Place! With this system, it doesn't matter if there is one horse, or 3 horses, or 20 horses in the class. If none of the horses that showed up that day are worthy of a 1st Place or 2nd Place, etc, then no one gets any ribbons, or points, etc. This system "evens up" the playing field because the people in small regions and small shows can compete equally with horses from larger regions. This system also makes the Titles from the small regions actually mean something!

Now, I know someone is going to jump on this and say "well, what criteria are the judges using for the breed standard, blah, blah, blah...." Well, maybe we have to change the Judging Rules first then work on modifying the judging criteria and let the Judges Committee come to consensus on what they "should" be looking for....aren't the judges supposed to be the experts? We need to start somewhere...

2). Under the International Style Judging rules, the Judges are REQUIRED to explain their Placements and explain the reasons they choose not to place horses, if that's the case. So, the owner and rider actually get constructive feedback on how their horses performed.

3). I also agree that points to qualify for Nationals should come from more than one weekend of showing.

4). Also, it is utterly ridiculous that the horses that place 1st and 2nd in a Class are not REQUIRED to enter the Grand Championship class. It's also ridiculous that horses that place 4-6 or don't place at all can enter a championship class or Grand National Championship Class. Where is the pride in the Breed? The sincere desire to crown a Champion of Champions??? It's a joke. Under International Style Judging Rules, the 1st and 2nd Place horses HAVE to enter the Grand Championship Class or forfeit their Title and not be allowed to show for the rest of the year! That's how seriously the International community takes their Titles!

In America, it seems it's all about getting a 10 cent Ribbon for the owner. Folks, we are not in elementary school here, some of us are actually trying to get an idea of what the "ideal" paso horse should be and are looking to seasoned professionals and judges to help us with that. I know no system is perfect, but the International Style of Judging seems to me to be much better in so many ways.

For those of you who think the diagonal owners kept their horses away as a protest against PFHA, I will say only this: I kept mine away 1). because of my disagreement with the PFHA (American Style) Judging system, as I've pointed out above, and 2). because I didn't want to pay for a Validation Certificate and pay a fee to become a member of an Organization that doesn't put the breed first, but puts the owners first and the Judging rules are evidence of this, IMO.


pasosx3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree with everything you wrote here especially number 2 3 and 4!!! Great post, your comments are greatly appreciated, keep on speaking your mind. Why can't PFHA see it this way? they should try it and see what happen, could not be worse than the way it is now,

pasosx3 YOU RULE!!!!

[jackymac]

Cindy...are you saying that sometimes NO blue ribbon is awarded at class(es) at Nationals? Please elaborate...I have not ever seen that done at ANY PFHA show....



Yes please elaborate on that?

[Siggy]

why does PFHA have to do it the same way? Let IPFH do it their way, that is good. People now have choices

[jackymac]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Wallace
Thats fine...because if you are showing Confepaso...you already know if you have "enough horse" to be there...
You won't be "experimenting much" with that type of judging. That type of judging IS looking for the best of the best already.....if there is NO "best"...they will let you know.....you won't be going home with blues unless the horse EARNED it.....no problem there.

apples and oranges...tangerines?



Same is true with our Nationals.


I DON'T AGREE WITH CINDY AT ALL. JMO

[SandyMM]

Same is true with our Nationals.I don't know that for sure.... I was only there from Thursday noon through the dinner break and saw one class placement that really shocked me... A horse was in and out of gait on nearly all the rail work, but somehow managed to pull it together for the board. The _exceptionally_ rough ride drew my attention and a couple of others in the stands - with over 30+ years' worth of gait experience each - and we observed the horse falling in and out of everything from a pace to a trot - and everything in-between. That should not have earned any horse a ribbon at any show much less at Nationals.

[Lori Perez]

I am very hopeful that IPF & ATTA can eventually form one entity with a registry. That way they can offer confepaso judging and all of the services that PFHA currently offer Paso Finos. Then owners can decide which association they want to register their horses with and each can have their own circuit independantly. This will more closely mirror the countries of origin and leave the owners and breeders a choice.

Once you have chosen your primary association there is no reason to slam the other:v:
but for now the international Paso Fino circuit is nothing more than a show circuit (like Grand Prix was) that offers no other services.

I agree with you on the first paragraph.

The second one is not really true. There ARE services and activities for IPHF members available that are not available to PFHA. (Like clinics - free to IPHF members, member trail rides, e-newsletter, input directly to the board members with changes that can be made almost immediately (& they listen!), a show circuit televised on PrimeTime National Television, prize money, plus "Regions" that can offer shows and activities.

[Lori Perez]

Going back to TOP or LOM...I find it odd that SO MANY of the ones announced at Nationals each year are either; not in the class or they are excused, get a low placement, etc. You would think the majority of them would be in the top three championship placements.

Terry: We had a great gelding that we took to Nationals. He competed in Geldings for Gold, Pleasure A/O and Pro. That horse competed only in the state of Florida (Spectrum, Extravaganza - Ocala & Miami circuit) up against some of the toughest (inlcuding stallions in the championships). I was super proud of the fact of this achievement. Now days I don't give it nearly the same importance. I do agree there should be a change in our point system.

[Lori Perez]

I don't know that for sure.... I was only there from Thursday noon through the dinner break and saw one class placement that really shocked me... A horse was in and out of gait on nearly all the rail work, but somehow managed to pull it together for the board. The _exceptionally_ rough ride drew my attention and a couple of others in the stands - with over 30+ years' worth of gait experience each - and we observed the horse falling in and out of everything from a pace to a trot - and everything in-between. That should not have earned any horse a ribbon at any show much less at Nationals.

Sandy - I certainly don't want to put down a horse, but this horse you are referring to should not have been in the ring. He simply was not ready or in show form.

[jackymac]

I agree with you on the first paragraph.

The second one is not really true. There ARE services and activities for IPHF members available that are not available to PFHA. (Like clinics - free to IPHF members, member trail rides, e-newsletter, input directly to the board members with changes that can be made almost immediately (& they listen!), a show circuit televised on PrimeTime National Television, prize money, plus "Regions" that can offer shows and activities.

I AGREE,
THEY do listen and respect their members, for IPHF it is about the breed. We have participated in several trail rides some on the beach which was so much fun , I had a few questions and email the BOD with immediate answers and they do participate in ALL BREED shows so that our Paso Fino and Trote Y Galope breed can be represented. We were presents at the last HORSES, HORSE, HORSES all breed show in Ocala and it was great, people loved to see our horses at the show. You can look at pictures on stunningsteeds.com. under SHOW & EVENTS.

[SandyMM]

Sandy - I certainly don't want to put down a horse, but this horse you are referring to should not have been in the ring. He simply was not ready or in show form.Not only was the horse placed, it was placed very, very well. I would not like to identify the horse further as it isn't the exhibitor's 'fault' that the judges placed it as they did....

[Serendipity]

the International Style (ie. Confepaso)

okay Confepaso does not allow pintos does IPF? I love to show under stand standard but would not take my only solid color horses,color should not matter

when Breeders are selling/promoting these "titled" horses as Show Quality to unsuspecting ie newbie buyers? That disgraceful.


remember it can be a great horse but some our best and internationally best stallions have huge confo flaws that are over looked like sickel hocks, ect but these horses are still concidered the cream of the crop and breeders flock to breed to them and then we have more horses w/ that confo flow and it gets worst

international Paso Fino circuit is nothing more than a show circuit

great i'd like to attend one maybe, if they allow white when will they be moving out of just FL so others can reasonable go? Miami is like a 14hr drive one way for me and i have a job so taking a week off work is not reasonable

That person paying for all those shows "probably" had to spend I'm going to guess a good $3,000 or more on their way to achieving that goal.

that person? i know My T.O.P. cost me well over $3000 but hey i's a small fish even though my mare does well at the shows i only get to go to 2-4 per yr it took a lot of shows and time to earn that T.O.P.

Just remember that the person showing in Florida paid over $3K and invested a LOT of time and travel to get the same TOP that a person out here got for $300 in one day...and didn't even have to really EARN it... I ask you WHAT is FAIR about that?

well the person out there spent a lot more than $300 first to earn the 500 points needed they have to compete in 25 double pointed classes at min. pre-enter fees of $25 per judge 2 judges so $50 per class it would cost $1250 and then only if the horse won every single class and if a horse could do 25 classes in 2-3 days w/ out falling down dead of exhaustion,if a horse could show in 25 classes in a weekend and win everyone that would truely be a super horse or a great testiment to endurance

When a horse here (out in the west where few people show), can be put into enough classes in ONE DAY to earn a rating of TOP....that is just plain wrong to me.

my math aboves shows its really not likely to be able to do that

Those points were not really EARNED...they were "delegated by default" because each class has to have a "winner"....(something I also don't agree with unless the horse was truly first place in his showing)

i've seen judges excuse whole classes for Not Gaiting, and the points again where earned, that person showing perpared the horse to the best of there knowedge took it to the show,paid the money to enter the classes and showed in front of the judges. they went it is not their fault a dozen other people did not show up i'm sure most people that end up in one horse classes would like to have more in there know i do so yes i can compare to others, and the part to be really first place in his showing is first off the judges opinion(and i don't always agree with that) but if the goes in the class and does all that it asked walk, corto, largo reverse does not act up, completes all of the class requirements then yes they are the winnier that class that day

and really you want to be carful about giving the judges the authority to place you where they want it is the tight and quick horses the are placing in the front of most all the classes rembemer that and if you showed a more pleasre type horse would you like hearing over the PA " Horse A was placed in 6th overall though was only horse in class because its footfall was not rapid enough to compete in this pleasure class" that is the can of worms that your opening, i'm sure they would word it in a diff way like lack the presents or brio

Hey..that is "the breaks"...thats the breaks of showing..you either want to or you don't.....OR...you move closer to where those shows are if you are a serious competitor.... "location, location, location"...is KEY to many things.....it all comes down to priorities.


okay Terry to much coffee here, read what your saying its unreasonable, most people who show even if they are breeder have other jobs your right it does come down to prorities and those that want to show do to what every level they want of can if someone wants to show at a breed show why should we tell then sorry no you cant if there horse compleres the taskes, some are not seeking to head to National, some are just out having fun. but to voice "hey you want to show, well then Move" does not seem like a good anwer to me. the west for example has some really nice horses

Thats why PRCA cowboys FOLLOW the circuit..they don't sit around and wait for pro-rodeos to come to their town....


they also earn M-O-N-E-Y , they go for the thrill and they earn thousands of dollars sure i'd load up the trailer and head to anyshow that paid me to go, i know a guy from here that has a reining horse and he is "on the Road" and he's making a good paycheck. that my friend is a huge differance

I have never seen a Confepaso show there are none out here...but I can sure understand WHY people "fear" them!!!!
This type of judging insures the breed standard is KEPT....


i'm not sure people fear them,i'm sure people disagree w/ some things like the white rule, and those showes seem to be well attended but again if held over here they are in south FL and few can go from anywhere else except FL. and yes the do make sure the horse gaits but again they let confo slide so the breed standars are not really kept, oh and there is it that one tiny deal that, what was it, oh yes i remember "they don't like pleasure horses" Fino is the top prority and everything else is by the way side

but somehow managed to pull it together for the board.

i have often wondered How much of the class is really won on the board? I know i know you are not to be judges on the board but you are, and a horse that ends w/ a bad board does not place even if the rail work was good. so what is the perpose in having the board if the horses are not judges on it, or if they are mostly judges on it why spend so must time on rail work?

[SandyMM]

I'd be curious to learn the origin of the board previously called the 'fino' board.... It more than doubles the length of some classes and if a judge can't tell an accurate corto or largo w/o a board to listen to - s/he shouldn't be judging anyway. As for the fino.... I always did like Carolyn Ziegler's style - even if I didn't agree with all her placements.... She would fling herself on the ground and watch the hooves from ground level.... Of course, back then, rpm wasn't nearly as important and you could much more easily _hear_ and _see_ an accurate footfall....

[jackymac]

why does PFHA have to do it the same way? Let IPFH do it their way, that is good. People now have choices

They don't have to do it the same way but there is always room for improvement, especially the points and the judging system, those two needs a lot of improvement. This is why they should start listening to their members, from what I read here there are lots of excellent ideas and they should listen.

Tres and I just want to show our beautiful horses and being judge failry. That is not too much to ask, is it? This is our hobby, this is our fun away from work!! We love to load up our horses and go to the show! :-)

It just has not been that way for us lately, it is sad when you look at a show event program to register your horses for a show and you have to look at who the judges are and pick the days when you feel you may be judged fairly on that particular day. :-( especailly if we drive several hours to get there.

my 2 cents :-)

[Lori Perez]

There is no qualification other than the horse being registered with a recognized registry in order to compete in any Confepaso event. Nor is there any qualification required other than registration in order to compete in the IPHF Nationals.

Not correct.


Under Confepaso there is a pre-pista where the horses are inspected. (IPHF/ATTA has adapted most of the rules) Anyone who wants to learn more about the rules can read them on PFHA's website www.pfha.org (Confepaso) and for IPHF go to www.myiphf.com

There are additional requirements other than being registered SOME of them are;

minimum height requirement
males - females must be correct reproductively
teeth - no over/under bite
*no large white above the knees
shoes must be the same on all four (no signes of soreing, etc.)

*I understand the controversy on this. I was told by a very well known breeder in Colombia that breeding for white (at least in the S. America Countries) was discouraged years ago mainly due to the fact they were in a very high mountainous area. Horses with excessive white, & pink skin were much more apt to have issues with skin cancer, sun burning, etc. Thus being too high maintenance and not as "hardy" to survive harsh conditions. In addition to this, any animal that is bred strickly for color/markings will lose the other desired qualities. I don't think it is because they just don't like them. (In fact there is a farm called Libano V.O. that has imported black and white horses; a vanner; a quarter horse and a donkey!) Who knows for sure. We would have had to be part of that decision process.

[JennLM]

I understand the controversy on this. I was told by a very well known breeder in Colombia that breeding for white was discouraged years ago mainly due to the fact they were in a very high mountainous area. Horses with excessive white, pink skin were much more apt to have issues with skin cancer, sun burning, etc. In addition to this any animal that is bred strickly for color/markings will lose the other desired qualities. I don't think it is because they just don't like them. (In fact there is a farm called Libano V.O. that has imported black and white horses; a vanner; a quarter horse and a donkey!) Who knows for sure. We would have had to be part of that decision process.

Which confuses the heck out of me since they allow grey horses right? Who.. turn white... They don't have grey horses in Columbia? Not arguing with you but the mindset.

[Cindy]

Not correct.


Under Confepaso there is a pre-pista where the horses are inspected. (IPHF/ATTA has adapted most of the rules) Anyone who wants to learn more about the rules can read them on PFHA's website (Confepaso) and for IPHF go to www.myiphf.com (http://www.myiphf.com)

There are additional requirements other than being registered SOME of them are;

minimum height requirement
males - females must be correct reproductively
teeth - no over/under bite
*no large white above the knees
shoes must be the same on all four (no signes of soreing, etc.)

*I understand the controversy on this. I was told by a very well known breeder in Colombia that breeding for white was discouraged years ago mainly due to the fact they were in a very high mountainous area. Horses with excessive white, pink skin were much more apt to have issues with skin cancer, sun burning, etc. In addition to this any animal that is bred strickly for color/markings will lose the other desired qualities. I don't think it is because they just don't like them. (In fact there is a farm called Libano V.O. that has imported black and white horses; a vanner; a quarter horse and a donkey!) Who knows for sure. We would have had to be part of that decision process.

We were not refering to the judging of the hroses at the show,which is what the prepista is. We were refering to having to qualify by showing in other shows via points or whatever in order to qualify to show in a Confepaso show. There is no prequalification requirement. The prepista is part of the juding of each particular class. The horse must pass the judging in the prepista in order to be allowed into the class. And I have a copy of the Confepaso rules and bylaws and have read them but thankyou for providing additional information.

[Cindy]

Which confuses the heck out of me since they allow grey horses right? Who.. turn white... They don't have grey horses in Columbia? Not arguing with you but the mindset.

The difference is the lack of pigmentation. A horse that is gray does not have a lack of pigmentation.

[icehorse]

Grey horses have black skin color. Even if the hair color eventually goes to an all "white" appearance, the skin color stays black.

The skin under hair that is truly white is pink in color, & it is the skin that will burn, just like a human's.

[Serendipity]

It just has not been that way for us lately, it is sad when you look at a show event program to register your horses for a show and you have to look at who the judges are and pick the days when you feel you may be judged fairly on that particular day. :-( especailly if we drive several hours to get there.


you know i have to do the same thing not because i have trote or trocha horses but because i show pintos and real pleasure type horses.certain judges there is just no point in showing up, so join the club and yes i wish it would change but they as everyone i have my own idea as to was should be in and win which classes

*no large white above the knees

so any one going to anwer my first question? does IPH also not allow white above the knee/hock since they are so like confepaso? and really till this stupid rule is change i'm sure lots of people are lest likely to wish good things on confepaso and thats not saying the horse is pinto just excess white

[Serendipity]

Grey horses have black skin color. Even if the hair color eventually goes to an all "white" appearance, the skin color stays black.

and are not grey horses known for getting cancer like nearly all end up with it?? so that really throws a wrench in it

[Terry Wallace]

and are not grey horses known for getting cancer like nearly all end up with it?? so that really throws a wrench in it YES...correct..up to eight out of ten grey horses WILL develop melanoma...if that is not a genetic weakness...then what is?

Cindy..isn't it so that once (maybe more) a Confepaso show here in the USA had the white rule waived for that particular show? If so....that is a great start people (IMO)

Ideally, any horse should be able to compete (if the owner so desires).... Helene...nope, I do not agree. The horse needs to be quality enough to be shown.
Remember back to state fair...some years ago..when a skinny bay Paso that was acting horribly...and not even in show shape at all...won Bella Forma? Got a blue ribbon for rearing, bolting and causing a ruckus and was thin as a rail...you could see the ribs....and it got a blue.....RIDICULOUS....gee..I wonder if that horse qualified for Nationals that year..we had two judges....

There are additional requirements other than being registered SOME of them are;

minimum height requirement---I'm ALL FOR this
males - females must be correct reproductivelyThis Too
teeth - no over/under biteAbsolutely FOR this
*no large white above the knees I have a problem with this one
shoes must be the same on all four (no signes of soreing, etc.)I'm all FOR this...two shoes only could be an unfair advantage to someone.

AND...just for clarification..when I refer to "best of the best"..I mean NATIONALS....we should have already weeded out the substandard horses at REGULAR shows.

remember it can be a great horse but some our best and internationally best stallions have huge confo flaws that are over looked like sickel hocks, ect but these horses are still concidered the cream of the crop
Yeah BUT....if they aren't in Bella Forma..they aren't being judged for CONFO....this is an area where a breeder needs to take heed before breeding...JMO

that person? i know My T.O.P. cost me well over $3000 but hey i's a small fish even though my mare does well at the shows i only get to go to 2-4 per yr it took a lot of shows and time to earn that T.O.P.

Hehehehe..so Nicole..does it seem fair to you that a person out here can earn a TOP in one show if they enter enough classes and not many horses show up? I bet not!!!

my math aboves shows its really not likely to be able to do that
I assure you it WAS done here! PM me for name of horse.....

As far as FEAR of Confepaso rules...that will come when some find out their horse will NOT pass a prepista because it is not tall enough, or has too much wither to spine drop, or has a bad bite, is not consistant in its gait...or anything else that is allowed in PFHA but not in Confepaso. This is why I do feel Confepaso IS looking out for the integrity of the breed for the most part...white rule not withstanding.

I agree with Paula....GREAT thread..lots of food for thought going on here...

[pnalley]

males - females must be correct reproductively

Does this mean no geldings or spayed mares? A gelding is certainly not "correct reproductively"

[Lori Perez]

Which confuses the heck out of me since they allow grey horses right? Who.. turn white... They don't have grey horses in Columbia? Not arguing with you but the mindset.

I understand completely, but not all grays have pink skin either. (And, if you ask a lot people dont like having a gray horse, it is just another issue to have to deal with - plus they are harder to keep clean looking!!! HA)

[SandyMM]

It isn't the color white itself, it's the 'crop out' factor that might mean >gasp< impure blood...... Colombians particularly favor a solid color horse - no idea why except I guess it's easier to see what their feet are doing and more likely there's no obvious PR blood....(?)

Also, gray is an extremely rare (virtually non-existent) color in PPR Pasos - thank goodness.... much less worry about the melanomas that grays often carry - external and internal...

Now _that_ ought to spark a discussion of its own.... :p

[Lori Perez]

It isn't the color white itself, it's the 'crop out' factor that might mean >gasp< impure blood...... Colombians particularly favor a solid color horse - no idea why except I guess it's easier to see what their feet are doing and more likely there's no obvious PR blood....(?)

Also, gray is an extremely rare (virtually non-existent) color in PPR Pasos - thank goodness.... much less worry about the melanomas that grays often carry - external and internal...

Now _that_ ought to spark a discussion of its own.... :p

Oh Sandy why do you always have to make it about PPR vs Colombian. I don't think it even warrants a discussion.

[Lori Perez]

so any one going to anwer my first question? does IPH also not allow white above the knee/hock since they are so like confepaso? and really till this stupid rule is change i'm sure lots of people are lest likely to wish good things on confepaso and thats not saying the horse is pinto just excess white

Can I suggest you look at the rules on the website? www.myiphf.com or contact them by email or phone.

[Lori Perez]

We were not refering to the judging of the hroses at the show,which is what the prepista is. We were refering to having to qualify by showing in other shows via points or whatever in order to qualify to show in a Confepaso show. There is no prequalification requirement. The prepista is part of the juding of each particular class. The horse must pass the judging in the prepista in order to be allowed into the class. And I have a copy of the Confepaso rules and bylaws and have read them but thankyou for providing additional information.

I mis-read the question the person was asking. I was WONDERING why you would have answered the way you did.

[Siggy]

didnt they merge with ATTA? What does ATTA say about high white?

[Lori Perez]

Does this mean no geldings or spayed mares? A gelding is certainly not "correct reproductively"

They have a special class just for geldings. The horse has to complete all the requirments of a stallion, plus the rider must dismount, mount and the RUN the horse, bring him back down....calm and to the line up. They have to still have the brio "heart" and be a good working horse/trail horse.

Reminds me of that saying "It takes a good horse (stallion) to makes a good gelding."

The fixed mares??? I don't think they could tell anyway.

[SandyMM]

Oh Sandy why do you always have to make it about PPR vs Colombian.It isn't "versus" as if I think one or the other is inherently better. It's a _comparison_ to illustrate why there is confusion for some people re: white - any white - on some Pasos and is drawn from comments I've heard from residents of the two major countries for origin for decades. Are you saying there are _no_ cultural differences in countries of origin preferences re: color, type of gait, association rules, modalities, and all the other things that make up the background for rules and judging in the many different associations?

The fact is, they're _entitled_ to have preferences and their rules reflect those preferences... Associations that 'lean' toward the preferences of one country or another would _obviously_ reflect those preferences in their rules and judging.... and _that's_ why the discussion of white color vs. white markings came up in the first place.

By the same token, PFHA should also reflect _its_ members' preferences in its rules and judging re: type/style of gait, colors, classes, divisions, etc.

[pnalley]

Reminds me of that saying "It takes a good horse (stallion) to makes a good gelding

Almost right. It takes a good stallion to be a great gelding:v:

What is required in a geldings class besides what you described? Is it a more relaxed way of going? Or do they stil have a fino or performance type class?

I would hope that if anyone spayed a mare it would be reflected on the registration papers just like gelding is.

[Lori Perez]

Almost right. It takes a good stallion to be a great gelding:v:

What is required in a geldings class besides what you described? Is it a more relaxed way of going? Or do they stil have a fino or performance type class?

I would hope that if anyone spayed a mare it would be reflected on the registration papers just like gelding is.

Right on about the great gelding...

If it is a "confepaso rules" show, then the horse would have to do the individual work off, which includes the figure 8, serpentine, sounding board and what I mentioned above.

[Lori Perez]

didnt they merge with ATTA? What does ATTA say about high white?

ATTA is the registry. ATTA doesn't register Pintos. We currently register only Trote y Galope, Trocha y Galope and Pure Trocha horses. It is up to the individual IPHF region (I believe) about show rules other than the basic ones you will find on the website.

[Siggy]

Thank you. Did the two entities merge?

[Siggy]

I tried to find regional rules but was not able to find any.
It appears that the IPF is a long way from posting rules that apply to the breed overall and sounds more like they make them up as they go depending on where they show. The rules are quite vague, but do mention that rapidity of footfall is an important part of the equation.

I read elsewhere that the preferance of no regions with IPF was better than regions in PFHA but here it is posted that there are regions.
I think that there is a lot of work to be done before this group could become anything more than a show circuit.

What ever happened to the Grand Prix? It was pretty much the same thing wasnt it? Without the diagonals of course

[Lori Perez]

I tried to find regional rules but was not able to find any.
It appears that the IPF is a long way from posting rules that apply to the breed overall and sounds more like they make them up as they go depending on where they show. The rules are quite vague, but do mention that rapidity of footfall is an important part of the equation.

I read elsewhere that the preferance of no regions with IPF was better than regions in PFHA but here it is posted that there are regions.
I think that there is a lot of work to be done before this group could become anything more than a show circuit.

What ever happened to the Grand Prix? It was pretty much the same thing wasnt it? Without the diagonals of course

Maybe I should have used the word Chapters vs Regions? And, IPHF is not set up or modeled like PFHA, never intended it to be like PFHA. There aren't any "regional rules" as you called them on the website. Don't try to twist my words and make this into something it is not. How can you say there is a lot of work to be done when you haven't ever participated at ONE FUNCTION and, have you taken the time to talk to someone? IPHF HAS DONE MORE TO PROMOTE THE PASO IN THE LAST YEAR THAN PFHA HAS IN THE LAST TEN YEARS OR MORE. IPHF IS A SHOW CIRCUIT SO WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT ANYWAY; no one is saying otherwise. IPHF has been out there promoting our breed, doing charity work, having wonderful shows, clinics, The orange bowl parade and group activities. Too many to list here.

It is way more than the Grand Prix.
The Grand Prix was just a show period put on by a few individuals, there were NO MEMBERS OR ACTIVITIES.

Siggy, just because information is not on a website doesn't mean it doesn't exist! I sugguest if you are really interested in knowing more, that you contact one of the people listed on the website. Maybe you can ask to be sent a couple of E-newsletters so you know more about what goes on. I am a member; not on the board.

[Siggy]

chapter vs region - can you explain the difference?

Lori can you please answer my main question which is
Has ATTA and IPHF merged?

Thank you

For all the PFHA lacks, I can go to that website as an outsider and get all of the information I need, not so with the other websites. No big deal, just makes me think that they are afraid to put the information out to the general public.
Lack of transparency - that is a term thrown around alot about PFHA

[Siggy]

Why wont ATTA register diagonal gaited horses with pinto markings?
What is the reasoning behind it?

[Serendipity]

when you haven't ever participated at ONE FUNCTION

ok the web site won't load up for me, so i'm asking 2 questions IF i were to go to an IPHF show
1-would my mare qualify because she is pinto not loud but pinto non the less
2- would she be able to compete because she is not fino style she is a pleasure horse

you say go and see but why on earth would i want to go if i would be told sorry you can't compete, because you horse is the wrong color or its feet are not quick enough? also i did ask earlyer are there any shows not in FL?

[Lori Perez]

chapter vs region - can you explain the difference?

Lori can you please answer my main question which is
Has ATTA and IPHF merged?

Thank you

For all the PFHA lacks, I can go to that website as an outsider and get all of the information I need, not so with the other websites. No big deal, just makes me think that they are afraid to put the information out to the general public.
Lack of transparency - that is a term thrown around alot about PFHA

I already answered the question - yes.
I think you are making a big deal.
"they are afraid" - HA, that is funny. Afraid of who? AND, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE FOR PFHA TO DO THAT...MANY YEARS!

[Siggy]

I dont know who they would be afraid of, but the fact is they are missing a tremendous amount of information.

If ATTA and IPHF are joined, who's rules are primary?
Do IPHF classes qualify for Mundial in all modalities?
If IPHF horses with white are qualified can they compete at Mundial?

[Cindy]

Why is discussing perceived flaws within an organizational system taken to mean it is being "slammed"? Are PFHA members that insecure??? I think the Emperor has no clothes....


Hmm, I knew I saw this somewhere. Seems the tide flows both directions.

[Siggy]

:v: lol @ Cindy

[Terry Wallace]

Sandy..thanks for mentioning this:It isn't the color white itself, it's the 'crop out' factor that might mean >gasp< impure blood......

It helps make my point as there is NO SUCH THING as a crop-out...through the study of color genetics...we now know this....this is why the "white rule" really needs to "go away".

[Lori Perez]

Hmm, I knew I saw this somewhere. Seems the tide flows both directions.

Cindy what the heck is that supposed to mean??? I am just trying to answer these people's questions! I think you are out of line making that remark. Let me ask you a question, do you personally have the time to answer all PFHA or any other organization questions about the rules, etc. I don't have to do it, I am just trying to help explain things. I suggest they contact someone in the organization for detailed information about the "system", I will be glad to help out and answer questions about the horses, etc. for those who have an interest.


Marcia Davis, IPHF President
P.O. Box 1860
Alachua, FL 32616
Phone: (386) 462-9919
FAX: (386) 418-8288
E-Mail: [email protected]


I will get back to the other questions asked about showing later today.

[jackymac]

I think we are loosing track here, the problem here is not IPHF it is PFHA.

PFHA may have all the rules and regulations on their site but what is the point if they are not following them. They have too much politics. I have to be carefull what I write here because I am sure trainers/judges may see this and it may affect my score in future classes.

FIRST of all, if the judges were to explain why you horse is being excused we could learn from it and correct the problem. SECOND in order to make it to the National we should have to attend minimum of three events.

WE NEED CHANGE!!!! :-)

[Lori Perez]

Why wont ATTA register diagonal gaited horses with pinto markings?
What is the reasoning behind it?

Siggy - ATTA follows Confepaso rules when registering a horse. I think we have already talked about Pintos on this thread.

[jackymac]

Cindy what the heck is that supposed to mean??? I am just trying to answer these people's questions! I think you are out of line making that remark. Let me ask you a question, do you personally have the time to answer all PFHA or any other organization questions about the rules, etc. I don't have to do it, I am just trying to help explain things. I suggest they contact someone in the organization for detailed information about the "system", I will be glad to help out and answer questions about the horses, etc. for those who have an interest.


Marcia Davis, IPHF President
P.O. Box 1860
Alachua, FL 32616
Phone: (386) 462-9919
FAX: (386) 418-8288
E-Mail: [email protected]


I will get back to the other questions asked about showing later today.



Lori,

THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING FOR THE PASO FINO BREED AND TROTE Y GALOPE BREED, LOTS OF PEOPLE DO APPRECIATE IT, I AM ONE. YOU ARE ALWAYS VERY HELPFUL AND I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU.

THANK YOU THANK YOU.......

[Siggy]

Siggy - ATTA follows Confepaso rules when registering a horse. I think we have already talked about Pintos on this thread.

but what is the REASON?
This is a new association, that while may follow show rules of Confepaso (which does not REGISTER horses) it is an association that should at this point understand the genetics of color.

More outdated thinking IMO,
Yes we have tried to discuss pinto, but we are not getting any answeres.

[Lori Perez]

:v: lol @ Cindy

Siggy, if you think this is so cute and funny, then don't expect me to answer the questions you have on the prior page. I don't know what your intentions are, but don't waste my time.

Jacky, I too would like to get back to the horses. I thought that is what this thread was about. I don't have time for the bantering.

[Siggy]

I think we are loosing track here, the problem here is not IPHF it is PFHA.

PFHA may have all the rules and regulations on their site but what is the point if they are not following them. They have too much politics. I have to be carefull what I write here because I am sure trainers/judges may see this and it may affect my score in future classes.

FIRST of all, if the judges were to explain why you horse is being excused we could learn from it and correct the problem. SECOND in order to make it to the National we should have to attend minimum of three events.

WE NEED CHANGE!!!! :-)

As far as color goes , I am happy that Bolero has a bit too much white on his lip otherwise he would still be in Colombia showing probably!!! :-)

Nope, not loosing track at all, we are pointing out that IPHF is pretty much the same with their politics and lack of transparency.
I am glad however that those who wish to leave PFHA have a place to go, you can certainly ask for and direct change as much as you desire in your new organization for that is why it was created. Then those that want to work within PFHA can do so without the distractions of those that are so against it.

[Terry Wallace]

More outdated thinking IMO,
Yes we have tried to discuss pinto, but we are not getting any answeres.

LOL..oh yes...this is one of those areas that makes it look like "we don't know what we are doing"...

A "white rule" exists that has no scientific grounds...in fact there is proof that white "does not a fault or weakness make".... this has to be some kind of fad from the past...just guessing..but apparently somebody way back when..before color genetics was studied...just "didn't like pintos or excessive white"...a cultural thing perhaps?

I'll quote Jackymac here: WE NEED CHANGE!!!! :-) :v:

When you have a rule like this..that has the effect of keeping a lot of good horses out...its not going to fly for very long. Its just another "dividing line" and does no good at all...JMO

[Siggy]

Siggy, if you think this is so cute and funny, then don't expect me to answer the questions you have on the prior page. I don't know what your intentions are, but don't waste my time.

Jacky, I too would like to get back to the horses. I thought that is what this thread was about. I don't have time for the bantering.

I dont think it's funny, I think it is totally hypocritical of ATTA, IPHF and it's representatives to come here and want to slam PFHA (see the quote that Cindy highlighted) and then get they get all bent out of shape when it is pointed out and serious questions are asked, questions that go unanswered for the most part.

If you can not present and document facts and answers to serious questions then you are going to be met with distrust.

It is fine if you dont want to answer my questions. I understand you being hesitant.

[Lori Perez]

but what is the REASON?
This is a new association, that while may follow show rules of Confepaso (which does not REGISTER horses) it is an association that should at this point understand the genetics of color.

More outdated thinking IMO,
Yes we have tried to discuss pinto, but we are not getting any answeres.

ATTA follows the rules of Confepaso, Fedequinas registers the horse. I never said Confepaso registered horses.

IPHF is not a new "association". They do not register horses either. ATTA does.

ATTA doesn't have to register Pintos. And, there are no pinto Trote, or Trocha (bloodlines) horses out there to register, because the breeding program didn't include breeding for color over the generations. There are many that have white markings.

Siggy, sorry, but that is enough. Life is too short to discuss matters with you. I can see you are always looking for an agrument on this subject. Have a good one:)

[Lori Perez]

Deleted duplicate

[Lori Perez]

I dont think it's funny, I think it is totally hypocritical of ATTA, IPHF and it's representatives to come here and want to slam PFHA (see the quote that Cindy highlighted) and then get they get all bent out of shape when it is pointed out and serious questions are asked, questions that go unanswered for the most part.

If you can not present and document facts and answers to serious questions then you are going to be met with distrust.

It is fine if you dont want to answer my questions. I understand you being hesitant.

Hey, #1 I am not slamming PFHA, #2 I suggest you contact a representative of the organization, not agrue on a forum if you truly want to know more about serious questions. It is not our job to educate you. I am not a representative of IPHF. No one is trying to hide anything my dear.

[jackymac]

I'll quote Jackymac here: :v:

When you have a rule like this..that has the effect of keeping a lot of good horses out...its not going to fly for very long. Its just another "dividing line" and does no good at all...JMO



I was refering to PFHA and "CHANGE" in judging and point for the National! I will not get involve in the color subject, I am staying out of that one and maybe another thread need to be started if any of you want to talk about colors and pointo.

Thank you.

[Terry Wallace]

Hey Jackymac....I am using that quote ONLY because I want to see that rule changed.... the words WE NEED CHANGE applies to more than one application!

I don't think the subject of COLOR needs a new thread as it is a Confepaso Rule and various rules are what we are talking about here in the this thread's entirety.

Lots of things need changed...point system in PFHA, white rule in Confepaso, "some" of the judging standards...to me it all "ties in" . JMO

[JennLM]

and are not grey horses known for getting cancer like nearly all end up with it?? so that really throws a wrench in it

That was kinda my point.... :v:

[Siggy]

I suggest you contact a representative of the organization
I think that you as the registrar for ATTA posting here very enlightening.

I have found it to be very accessible with the representatives to post and make contact through the forums

[jackymac]

Hey Jackymac....I am using that quote ONLY because I want to see that rule changed.... the words WE NEED CHANGE applies to more than one application!

I don't think the subject of COLOR needs a new thread as it is a Confepaso Rule and various rules are what we are talking about here in the this thread's entirety.

Lots of things need changed...point system in PFHA, white rule in Confepaso, "some" of the judging standards...to me it all "ties in" . JMO

Sounds good! :D

[Cindy]

So, I am trying to think this through here so bear with me, Bolero has too much white to show in a Confepaso show but he is a registered Trote Y Galope stallion with, I am guessing Fedequinas and ATTA? And he CAN show in IPHF shows even though he has the white that disallows him to show in Confepaso shows. ATTA and IPHF have merged thus forming one entity, I assume as that is what merge means. And ATTA follows Confepaso rules even though Confepaso is not a registry but merely an Association to regulate International Competitions. But IPHF does NOT follow Confepaso rules even though it is only a show Association and NOT a registry because it allows horses with excessive white to show in it's competitions. I can see how these things might bring about some confusion with those who are trying to learn about the ATTA/IPHF Association. It also adds to the confusion that a horse can be a registered breeding stallion but cannot compete because he does not meet the requirements of Confepaso even though the registry that registered him follows Confepaso rules when Confepaso has no registry thus no rules regarding registering horses.

[Siggy]

I guess the region, err I mean chapter allows him to show

[Lori Perez]

I think that you as the registrar for ATTA posting here very enlightening.

I have found it to be very accessible with the representatives to post and make contact through the forums

I have no issue answering a question about registering a horse.

[Lori Perez]

ok the web site won't load up for me, so i'm asking 2 questions IF i were to go to an IPHF show
1-would my mare qualify because she is pinto not loud but pinto non the less
2- would she be able to compete because she is not fino style she is a pleasure horse

you say go and see but why on earth would i want to go if i would be told sorry you can't compete, because you horse is the wrong color or its feet are not quick enough? also i did ask earlyer are there any shows not in FL?


Hi Nicole - I am going to hopefully answer this very simply without confusing anyone. And, if anyone needs or wants more information, please refer to the IPHF website ("contacts") 1- IPHF shows have their own set of rules, not 100% Confepaso, not 100% like PFHA. I have not read anything that would eliminate a Pinto from being shown at an IPHF event... That is why I suggest you contact an IPHF representative. Remember they are a show circuit with more than one chapter. A chapter in lets say in North Carolina can taylor their show to fit the needs of that region of the country.

2-There are pleasure classes available.

Forgot to mention: There has already been an event at Startown Stables in North Carolina.

I would like to point out that ATTA is a registry and is a subsiderary of IPHF. They are two seperate entities.

[pasosx3]

Siggy, Nicole, others: Other than the "no white or pinto rules", what is it specifically that you do not like or agree with regarding the points listed below? You've been critical of the International-style Judging system, but you have not outlined specifically, other than the color issue, what it is you dislike. I am curious to know. (You have mentioned that there is confusion among Judges, and I agree, about what they look for in an Pleasure horse, but that is an issue about judging criteria or judges subjective opinions, not the overall judging system ie rules, etc. It is a separate, albeit related issue, but not the same).



1). I've said this before, the International Style (ie. Confepaso) Judging rules ALLOW the Judges to leave placements VACANT if they do not believe the horse or horses that showed up that day to show are worthy of being in First Place or Second Place or even Third Place! With this system, it doesn't matter if there is one horse, or 3 horses, or 20 horses in the class. If none of the horses that showed up that day are worthy of a 1st Place or 2nd Place, etc, then no one gets any ribbons, or points, etc. This system "evens up" the playing field because the people in small regions and small shows can compete equally with horses from larger regions. This system also makes the Titles from the small regions actually mean something!

Now, I know someone is going to jump on this and say "well, what criteria are the judges using for the breed standard, blah, blah, blah...." Well, maybe we have to change the Judging Rules first then work on modifying the judging criteria and let the Judges Committee come to consensus on what they "should" be looking for....aren't the judges supposed to be the experts? We need to start somewhere...

2). Under the International Style Judging rules, the Judges are REQUIRED to explain their Placements and explain the reasons they choose not to place horses, if that's the case. So, the owner and rider actually get constructive feedback on how their horses performed.

3). I also agree that points to qualify for Nationals should come from more than one weekend of showing.

4). Also, it is utterly ridiculous that the horses that place 1st and 2nd in a Class are not REQUIRED to enter the Grand Championship class. It's also ridiculous that horses that place 4-6 or don't place at all can enter a championship class or Grand National Championship Class. Where is the pride in the Breed? The sincere desire to crown a Champion of Champions??? It's a joke. Under International Style Judging Rules, the 1st and 2nd Place horses HAVE to enter the Grand Championship Class or forfeit their Title and not be allowed to show for the rest of the year! That's how seriously the International community takes their Titles!



Thanks!

[pasosx3]

Jacky: thanks for the support.
Lori Peerez: thanks for clarifying some things and answering ?'s.

[pasosx3]

Hmm, I knew I saw this somewhere. Seems the tide flows both directions.

Touche, Cindy! I agree, it does go both ways and it should. I agree that there are still some "murky" areas that need to be worked out with IPHF/ATTA. But, this is a new entity and these organizations are still very young, and growing and developing. Things take time to be worked out and I believe the Leaders are doing their best. I wouldn't expect them to have all their T's crossed and i's dotted for such a young organization. I must say though, that I have been impressed with their willingness to be flexible. This is a good trait. You must also admit that PFHA has put up several barriers which have kept these groups from continuing forward at a faster speed. And, there are still issues pending.

I, personally, have no problem double-registering any of my paso horses. And, I would support and participate in PFHA if they "cleaned up" the Judging System (as I 've stated before). I don't think this has to be "either/or", I think healthy competition is good for all groups involved. It makes each org. have to step up their game so I see it as a "win-win" (eventually) for all the paso horses and their owners.

[Siggy]

I have no problem with the confepaso style of judging (except the white rule).
What I dont understand is the ability for these organizations to switch out the parts of the rules that they want to at will, with no formal written rules or bylaws except a few that are very vague.

I personally would not show in a circuit that is under one umbrella but has made up rules at each location.

I dont have a problem with them doing that, perhaps some day when the do have their Is dotted and Ts crossed and an actual rulebook I would be interested in attending one of their venues but I would not pay to participate where the rules are interchangeable according to whom ever is hosting the show.

[jackymac]

So, I am trying to think this through here so bear with me, Bolero has too much white to show in a Confepaso show but he is a registered Trote Y Galope stallion with, I am guessing Fedequinas and ATTA? And he CAN show in IPHF shows even though he has the white that disallows him to show in Confepaso shows. ATTA and IPHF have merged thus forming one entity, I assume as that is what merge means. And ATTA follows Confepaso rules even though Confepaso is not a registry but merely an Association to regulate International Competitions. But IPHF does NOT follow Confepaso rules even though it is only a show Association and NOT a registry because it allows horses with excessive white to show in it's competitions. I can see how these things might bring about some confusion with those who are trying to learn about the ATTA/IPHF Association. It also adds to the confusion that a horse can be a registered breeding stallion but cannot compete because he does not meet the requirements of Confepaso even though the registry that registered him follows Confepaso rules when Confepaso has no registry thus no rules regarding registering horses.

In other words you are saying since Bolero is flawed and does not meet Confepaso, does that mean you would say he should not show in PFHA? so you are saying he is not eligible to show? please retorte!

[Cindy]

Of course not. Me God, relax. You have a beautiful stallion. I did not make the Confepaso rules. I am just stating the facts of the situation and trying to figure them out just like everyone else. YOU are the one who stated that you were glad that he could not show in Colombia as this fact enabled you to purchase him here in the staes. I had never before even venture a thought about him not being allowed to show in Colombia. If you have a beef, it is with the Confepaso rules, not with me for simply stating what they are. We breed and show horses of all colors in this country under PFHA rules.

[jackymac]

Of course not. Me God, relax. You have a beautiful stallion. I did not make the Confepaso rules. I am just stating the facts of the situation and trying to figure them out just like everyone else. YOU are the one who stated that you were glad that he could not show in Colombia as this fact enabled you to purchase him here in the staes. I had never before even venture a thought about him not being allowed to show in Colombia. If you have a beef, it is with the Confepaso rules, not with me for simply stating what they are. We breed and show horses of all colors in this country under PFHA rules.

You relax! I do not have a beef with Confepaso, I was just stating that I am so happy Bolero has white because I do beleive it is the reason he was here in the states and I am the lucky one to own him now, that is all !!! You took that and ran with it and took it apart.

What about the other issues you did not address them? I am sure by now that you are very much aware of the rules as I know you have been around the paso fino block a lot longer than me! I did not want to get into this politics about Bolero. He is a registered Stallion with ATTA and Fedequinas and if PFHA get their sh_t together I or my trainer may show him in PFHA. When we travel to other states to show are paso fino horses I bring Bolero and gets plenty of attention just showing him around and that is fine with me.

Bolero came into my life as my riding partner and I did not intend to show him at all, lots of people know that I do not care to show becasue of the judging system, Tres on the other hand is the competitor at heart and he loves to compete. I do beleive that Bolero is a great exemple of the Trote Y Galope breed and I that is why I have showed him in Jacksonville and Miami show with IPHF, I have no desire to show him in PFHA especailly from what I saw at the National this year, class at 9:30 in the morning with nobody around and no prize money and for those of you who saw the way the second horse was judged, it was pathetic. The first horse showed at LAST CHANCE in Ocala and got all his points in one day and on to the National! The exhibitor did a great job and her horse is a good horse but she did not show all year and I do not agree with that. My opinion!

Many of you can say if you dont like PFHA just go show in IPHF, if you keep saying that to members, the numbers of horses in your class will continue to get smaller and when you are the last and only horse in your class showing and you get a first place 10 cent ribbon and you can call your self a champion, I don't know about you but it does not make me feel good :-(

Problem is everybody is trying to talk about something but PFHA nor any of their political members want to listen. Ask pasosx3 what happened to her when she had a ligit question and send a letter to the President of PFHA, the letter was returned!

[Cindy]

My discussion had nothing to do with you or your horse personally. We are merely discussing the issues of different Associations. What was wrong with the judging of the second place horse? I did not see the class.

[jackymac]

Cindy,
The Trote Y Galope that took Reserve National Champion did not meet the requirements of the class and it was easy to see that the horse walked around the small little cones of the figure 8, poor collection and lack of energy and his mane alone did not represent the breed, given Reserve National Champion to a horse that did not meet the requirements is a bad example for the breed and how poor the judging was, my opinion and the fact that the first horse is now National Champion and has NOT competed all year is just not right in my opinion.

Please know that I am very protective of Bolero :-), I am soory if I missunderstood you.

Jacky

[Lori Perez]

I have no problem with the confepaso style of judging (except the white rule).
What I dont understand is the ability for these organizations to switch out the parts of the rules that they want to at will, with no formal written rules or bylaws except a few that are very vague.

I personally would not show in a circuit that is under one umbrella but has made up rules at each location.

I dont have a problem with them doing that, perhaps some day when the do have their Is dotted and Ts crossed and an actual rulebook I would be interested in attending one of their venues but I would not pay to participate where the rules are interchangeable according to whom ever is hosting the show.

You got it wrong. There is no switching around or interchangeable rules as you mention (read the rules on IPHF website). The show is taylored, the rules are not changed. There are "bylaws". Siggy, I say stay with what you like. No one is forcing anything down your throath.

[Lori Perez]

I'm with you on that, way to go Jacky. :)

[SandyMM]

I believe the horse in question was very young and was there for the same reason many of us have horses at shows at various times... experience. The class was offered and anybody with a TyG could have shown... not their fault nobody else showed up....

[Siggy]

I'm with you on that, way to go Jacky. :)

how very professional for a person in your position.
I will certainly spread the word:D

[Serendipity]

Siggy, Nicole, others: Other than the "no white or pinto rules", what is it specifically that you do not like or agree with regarding the points listed below? You've been critical of the International-style Judging system, but you have not outlined specifically, other than the color issue, what it is you dislike. I am curious to know.

the white issue is a big deal for me, i am not a breeder of pintos only so you can't say i'm only in it for the color no, its a dumb rule and those of us that do choose to breed for a colored foal now and then are breeding to a much higher standard we know that if its pinto it has to be REALLY good for the judge to look at it. it is disheartening to have a really nice horse placed low or out because of the color of its coat.

(You have mentioned that there is confusion among Judges, and I agree, about what they look for in an Pleasure horse, but that is an issue about judging criteria or judges subjective opinions, not the overall judging system ie rules, etc. It is a separate, albeit related issue, but not the same

its all related Pleasure needs to be defined, or a set of classes for the other pleasure horse made because we are not selling horses because not everyone wants a horse that is like dynimite to ride, yes it has to have brio but where have the loose reins gone, where is the flat walk, the nice even corto and the largo w/ speed change and the smooth ride so many look like the horse is a very rough ride w/ all the bouncing going on. i had a young lady out the other day she rode my show mare who is Country Pleasure thats where everyone thinks she should be(though i feel she is to hot for this class,she can be quite a handful) so i've spent the last yr tightening her up and pushing her more. the lady was a good rider and said she was fun but i little to much horse i let her ride my pinto mare who is very quiet i sometimes get board on her she is very smooth soft daisy clipper the lady loved her and said now this is what you can really ride.

my show mare used to be inbetween the 2 but in order to compete she has had to be pushed hard and now she is not where i want her we are to go back. To me Pleasure class should be a upgraded version of what people want to ride or joe public because its these horses that are the ones that sell the easiest to most anyone and by upgraded i mean a fancier, more showy way of going but still be the same horse ment for anyone to ride, not a select few

). I've said this before, the International Style (ie. Confepaso) Judging rules ALLOW the Judges to leave placements VACANT if they do not believe the horse or horses that showed up that day to show are worthy of being in First Place or Second Place or even Third Place! With this system, it doesn't matter if there is one horse, or 3 horses, or 20 horses in the class. If none of the horses that showed up that day are worthy of a 1st Place or 2nd Place, etc, then no one gets any ribbons, or points, etc. This system "evens up" the playing field because the people in small regions and small shows can compete equally with horses from larger regions. This system also makes the Titles from the small regions actually mean something!

i have no problem here if the the system stays consitant but it also leave judges w/ the right to place you low because they don't like you or your horse, or your are a direct competitor to their farm

2). Under the International Style Judging rules, the Judges are REQUIRED to explain their Placements and explain the reasons they choose not to place horses, if that's the case. So, the owner and rider actually get constructive feedback on how their horses performed.

again i have zero issues w/ the idea but the first time i heard " I placed this horse 6th in the pleasure class even though only one in class because it did not exhibit a quick enough foot fall or was not collected enough" i believe i'd make quite a ruckus. it gives the judges to much power to place as they want and not how they should there are fair judges out there but many are also in someones pocket and untill the judges are themselves on the same playing field its not as easy to say sure place me where you think i should be, there are judges that don't even like some of the classes and they pick who the know or the horse they like not but what is going on in the class.

I love to show under a judge that will ask a question or explain something to you its very helpful and does take a lot of guessing out of it. and of couse the judge is going to have its liked and disliked but as a judge the need to put that aside for example a judge that likes the fino class only not really interested in the others is likely to place all other classes as close to his/her like as he can so the horses that win in pleasure and country pleasure are as closes to fino like as they can be and that is where it is confusing to the ones that show

Under International Style Judging Rules, the 1st and 2nd Place horses HAVE to enter the Grand Championship Class or forfeit their Title and not be allowed to show for the rest of the year! That's how seriously the International community takes their Titles!

i agree w/ this in the older horses unless an issue comes up like the horse become limp or something he should not lose his titel if he can not compete.
also i don't agree w/ this for the younger horses 4 and under there lack of experance makes it an unreasonable goal some youngsters starting out can sometimes not take the pressure to 2 classes close together i know this from showing a yrling this yr first show she held it together great for the class put her back in the champ class she had a complete meltdown. now at the 2nd show we where able to compete in both and did well
i also do think that at Nat'l this should appy the 1 and 2 horse should have to compete in the Champ classes unless they become unfit by a vet

[Lori Perez]

Nicole I understand some of your concerns. But this type of judging system has been in place for a LONG time in other countries. You see less of what your wrote about above. You mentioned something about direct competition with your farm. That is one thing you will find more of here in the USA because we have judges that are actively training, and on the board of PFHA. Too many conflicts of interest for such a small group. I have always felt that was an issue.

[Lori Perez]

how very professional for a person in your position.
I will certainly spread the word:D

So, now I can't support Jacky?
And, you seem to think it IS OK for you to do LOL:) in regards to Cindy's post about Bolero?
Please do spread the word. People know what I stand for. I don't know why I even waste my time on your post. Good night.

[jackymac]

I believe the horse in question was very young and was there for the same reason many of us have horses at shows at various times... experience. The class was offered and anybody with a TyG could have shown... not their fault nobody else showed up....

SandyMM, I don't agree with you at all!!!!!

Yes true but this was the Grand National NOTjust a various show at a various time, the Grand National is suppose to be for the best of the best NOT to get experience for your young horse. Some of you just don't understand that? AGAIN they showed up but the young horse should have been excused, he was not prepared for this grand show and I also know that this exibitor with this young horse ask if the other exibitor if she could go in first because her horse was scared and needed to see another horse in the ring. Do you really think that this colt should have been at the Grand National??

This was just one class, I am certain that there were several other classes where horses were there and had no experience only because it is allowed to collect enough points in one show to take your horse and go to the National but again the National is NOT TO GET EXPERIENCE. The regional shows are how you get the experience to prepare your horse for the NATIONAL!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!

[jackymac]

how very professional for a person in your position.
I will certainly spread the word:D

Siggy, you happened to be mind over matter! :D

[Siggy]

by all means, continue to try to attack me in public, it just shows the level of professionalism that represents those two groups. I have in no way resorted to personal attacks or rude comments about you, your associations or your animals. I have simply outlined the issues that I see with the organizations currently. But if it makes you feel better or you think that by changing the focus to belittling a person here rather than addressing the issues, then yes go ahead and continue the insults.

[jackymac]

I beleive if you read back on this thread, members of this forum have answered lots of your questions in regards to issues you have outlined I am sorry if you took this as an attack but you are one that keeps making smart remarks and you have not said anything positive about anything. It was not an attack but the way I feel about some of your post, I guess I should have said that some of your post are mind over matter to me.

Sorry for the confusion!

[Hacienda Radiante]

the Grand National is suppose to be for the best of the best NOT to get experience for your young horse. ... National is NOT TO GET EXPERIENCE. The regional shows are how you get the experience to prepare your horse for the NATIONAL!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!

OK, that's just absurd. At a certain point you have to take a talented horse to Nationals to see if they can handle the pressure of a larger class. There is no way to do that at the regional level. I have a Pleasure mare that is very competitive and multi-time winner at the regional shows, but she flunked at Nationals because she couldn't handle being in a class of 20-30 other horses. She's too submissive and was too worried about where the other mares were in relation to her. I got her all the experience I could, it doesn't duplicate Nationals. My ONLY objection to bringing green horses into the ring is that if they blow they may disturb other horses. Otherwise, it can be a learning (and humbling) experience for both the animal and the rider. Everyone has to start somewhere, and if we perpetuate this myth that only trainers and A/O dilettantes who do nothing but ride for a living are the ONLY people who can enter the Nationals show ring we are dooming the breed to an ever-smaller set of competitors. I'd also like to know how you are supposed to know whether your horse is the 'best of the best' without putting them up against other Nationals contenders. It sure would save a lot of money if I could just get the stamp of approval from someone so I wouldn't have to waste all the effort of training and riding the ones that no-one but me and the regional judges ever thinks will make it.

FWIW several friends who made a point of seeing the T&G class were underwhelmed by the second place finisher. These are people who have no experience with that modality, and yet it was quite clear to them that the reserve horse as not a 'real' T&G horse. So I don't think you need be so concerned about that one muddying the waters for the diagonals. The PF people 'get' it, just as we 'get' it when a poorly gaited horse is still placed in a small class. No worries. I'd like to suggest that the TG people sponsor a clinic next year at the Nationals, much as some of the trainers and stewards did this year. They could demo the horses and allow people to try riding them. I for one would like to ride a 'real' TG horse. They look like fun!

[jackymac]

Thank you for your post, but I feel very stongly about what I wrote and it is MY opinion.

Every time we go to shows in other states I bring Bolero and let me tell you that once in Asheville I had people lined up in the arena to ride him and everybody was blown away, I did not turn anybody away and everybody in line got to ride him as they already knew how to ride a paso. I am a proud owner and my stallion is gentle enough for people to ride and this is my way of promoting the breed, the first time I saw a Trote Y Galope horse was in a show in Ocala about 4 years ago, I looked at Tres and told him "One day I will own one of these horses" that same weekend a Trote Y Galope owner was kind enough to let me ride his horse and I was hooked, so now I want to return the favor! On 07/07/07 Tres bought Bolero for me as an anniversary present and it was the best present I have or will ever received. I believe that every Paso Fino farm should own a Trote Y Galope! :-) They are fantastic creature!

Hacienda Radiante,
You are welcome to come up to me at any time if you ever see me and Bolero and I will let you ride him and that goes for anybody on this forum. They are exciting to ride. :-)

:-)

[jackymac]

To me I get more pleasure going to shows with Bolero and ride him around and let people get on him and ride than I do getting into a show ring and compete, I love to watch the people's face with a big smile across their face, this is my way of promoting the breed.

[Hacienda Radiante]

As they say, that's what makes a horse race. :) We had two friends who took horses to Nationals this year. Green riders and green horses and they still placed well -- I'm particularly proud of the one got 6th out of a class of 20-something pleasure mares. I think she is sleeping with the ribbon under her pillow LOL. If we waited until she was an experienced competitor, rather than merely a competent horsewoman, would she still be interested in showing competitively or would she have decided she wasn't worthy? Winning something at Nationals has validated her skills and I know she will be back to compete next year.

I may take you up on the offer to ride the next time I'm in FL. We were messing with Juan Miguel del Prado a few months ago and Angel got him to do what I call the Mexican hand gallop (when we ride him at demos we get a lot of questions about whether Pasos can canter and it's actually good for the old man, helps him build his butt muscles). It looks similar to the galope. He's definitely not the real deal, but boy was it fun to sit on that. It felt like riding a rocking horse.

[Lori Perez]

I agree with both Jacky and Hacienda Radiante. Good points made from both. I think what Jacky was pointing out is that the trainer knew already that the horse was NOT prepared for the Nationals. The horse did not respond well, how could he. He wasn't even trained to the point he could be collected. And, due to the way the judging system is, the horse was placed (even though he shouldn't have been). I think it would be upseting to exhibitors who work very hard all year preparing their horse (and themselves) to see this happen...It kinda of takes away the importance of the title of being a Grand National Champion.

It is like saying Ok, lets lower our standards to meet the level of the horses, when it should be the horses should be held to the high level of the Nationals.

Radiante - This was a professional trainer riding against an teenage A/O who doesn't get full time Pro training. But I DO get what you are saying about "A/O dilettantes"

Good to hear from you.

[SandyMM]

I believe the horse in question was very young and was there for the same reason many of us have horses at shows at various times... experience. The class was offered and anybody with a TyG could have shown... not their fault nobody else showed up....
SandyMM, I don't agree with you at all!!!!!
What.... You don't agree that the horse was young? Was there for experience? That people take their horses to what they consider the most appropriate venue to get needed experience? That anyone with a TyG could have shown? Or maybe you think it _was_ the 2nd place's fault that nobody else showed up?

National is NOT TO GET EXPERIENCEWhy in the world are you yelling at me? I wrote what I was told about the horse and I personally don't care if any horse is entered for experience. They pay the entry fee and they get judged... period.

If more horses had shown up that day for that class, that particular horse might have placed lower - but on that day, in that show, in that class, it was pinned second. Why don't you track down the owner(s) of the horse and tell them just how dissatisfied you are with them and their decision - maybe they'll give their ribbon back to make things right...:rolleyes: In the meantime, don't badmouth someone who actually made the effort to show up... many did not.

Having said that - it was the Paso Fino Horse National Show and not the Paso Horse National Show. I still do not support any diagonal classes being a part of the class schedule any more than I would support any other non-Paso Fino gaited horse being on the schedule just because they're 'related'. The diagonals in this country have a separate registry, proof enough to me that they are not considered Paso Finos and should not, therefore, be included in the Paso Fino National Show.

Many people enjoy or are curious about the diagonals - that's fine. I'm sure their owners enjoy them and are proud to show them off. I can admire a lot of trotting breeds for their unique traits - but I wouldn't own one, nor would I expect any of them to be promoted at the National Show - no matter how closely related....

[Lori Perez]

by all means, continue to try to attack me in public, it just shows the level of professionalism that represents those two groups. I have in no way resorted to personal attacks or rude comments about you, your associations or your animals. I have simply outlined the issues that I see with the organizations currently. But if it makes you feel better or you think that by changing the focus to belittling a person here rather than addressing the issues, then yes go ahead and continue the insults.
Any comments I made were not made on the behalf of any organization, they were my personal opinion about your behavior. You are always looking for a fight and are very forgetful if you think you have in no way been negative. It is always the same with you on the subject of the diagonals, Confepaso or anything else for that matter that you are not part of or is different than what you are into. So, why don't you just not participate in the threads? I really don't think your intention is to learn or discuss. I have answered SO many of your questions, but it is never good enough for you. You seem to be more concerned with rules, regulations, bylaws, etc. for organizations that you don't even belong to.

So, don't you dare say that there is a lack of professionalism within our group. This is a forum where personal opinions are posted, this is not official. That is why people should never get information about an organization from a forum. Too many rumors are started, too much confusion. It is too hard to write down answers that should be verbalized in a discussion or go read the "official" rules, go to the "official website" and contact a member of the organization.

Life is too short:) I am sure you are a good person, so am I. Nothing personal. Let's agree to disagree on certain subjects.

[SandyMM]

You seem to be more concerned with rules, regulations, bylaws, etc. for organizations that you don't even belong to. And what better way to learn about an organization than to ask its members for information and references/links to official information?

The last organization I supported without full knowledge of their activities and intents was A.C.O.R.N. A friendly young person - with county provided I.D. - came through the neighborhood asking for donations to 'help the poor'. Obviously I wasn't myself that day or I would never have donated to an organization I was not familiar with......

[Lori Perez]

What.... You don't agree that the horse was young? Was there for experience? That people take their horses to what they consider the most appropriate venue to get needed experience? That anyone with a TyG could have shown? Or maybe you think it _was_ the 2nd place's fault that nobody else showed up?

Why in the world are you yelling at me? I wrote what I was told about the horse and I personally don't care if any horse is entered for experience. They pay the entry fee and they get judged... period.

If more horses had shown up that day for that class, that particular horse might have placed lower - but on that day, in that show, in that class, it was pinned second. Why don't you track down the owner(s) of the horse and tell them just how dissatisfied you are with them and their decision - maybe they'll give their ribbon back to make things right...:rolleyes: In the meantime, don't badmouth someone who actually made the effort to show up... many did not.

Having said that - it was the Paso Fino Horse National Show and not the Paso Horse National Show. I still do not support any diagonal classes being a part of the class schedule any more than I would support any other non-Paso Fino gaited horse being on the schedule just because they're 'related'. The diagonals in this country have a separate registry, proof enough to me that they are not considered Paso Finos and should not, therefore, be included in the Paso Fino National Show.

Many people enjoy or are curious about the diagonals - that's fine. I'm sure their owners enjoy them and are proud to show them off. I can admire a lot of trotting breeds for their unique traits - but I wouldn't own one, nor would I expect any of them to be promoted at the National Show - no matter how closely related....

Sandy do you really believe that just because a horse shows up, it deserves to be given a ribbon?

The USA is the only country that is a member of Confepaso that has a seperate registry, and does not represent all of the Paso modalities. And, that is one of the on going issues (for years). You personally may feel that way and that is fine. But there are quite a few other members who feel that USA should maintain the heritage of the horse and if they want to be part of Confepaso, they should run the registry in the same fashion.

I can tell you that most owners of the Trote y Galope, Trocha y Galope and Trocha horses did not sign up to get a "Validation Certificate" because they don't like the politics or the way it was done anymore than any other PFHA member just like you.

[Cindy]

The horse that placed second was the horse ridden by a trainers wife, correct? I did not see the class but I knew that she was going to ride one. If so, I do not believe that she is a professional trainer. Though she can correct me if she wants as I know she reads this forum from time to time. I think she is an amateur.

Also, the judging system had nothing to do with the judges placing that horse second in the class. If the horse did not meet the requirements of the class, it was well within their authority to disqualify the horse with no placement. They CHOSE not to do so. I don't know which three judges officiated in that particular class but I DO know that at least 4 of the judges who officiated at the show are Confepaso judges. Not sure about Nicky, he may be as well and that would make all five of them. These judges frequently took the time to disqualify horses who did not make the cut in classes of 20-30 horses instead of simply excusing them. I heard of one class in which there were about 7 horses and they disqualified all but I think 3 of them. And these are the judges you speak of who are not trainers and are not in the horse business and are Confepaso and IPHF judges. Why did they NOT disqualify the horse if it did not meet the requirements of the class? Don't blame the judging system. That had nothing to do with it. Horses were disqaulified right and left all week.

And the horse had to be shown somewhere this year as it had to qualify. Just because it did not show in Florida, LOL, does not meen that it did not show.

[Lori Perez]

And what better way to learn about an organization than to ask its members for information and references/links to official information?

The last organization I supported without full knowledge of their activities and intents was A.C.O.R.N. A friendly young person - with county provided I.D. - came through the neighborhood asking for donations to 'help the poor'. Obviously I wasn't myself that day or I would never have donated to an organization I was not familiar with......

I understand, but we are not asking you for a donation either, and that little young person was not an official of ACORN. It is up to the individual to educate themselves about something. And, you shouldn't rely on a forum for written rules, look them up. And, my point was that most people don't have time to keep answering questions all day, especially a horse owner. :)

[Lori Perez]

The horse that placed second was the horse ridden by a trainers wife, correct? I did not see the class but I knew that she was going to ride one. If so, I do not believe that she is a professional trainer. Though she can correct me if she wants as I know she reads this forum from time to time. I think she is an amateur.

Also, the judging system had nothing to do with the judges placing that horse second in the class. If the horse did not meet the requirements of the class, it was well within their authority to disqualify the horse with no placement. They CHOSE not to do so. I don't know which three judges officiated in that particular class but I DO know that at least 4 of the judges who officiated at the show are Confepaso judges. Not sure about Nicky, he may be as well and that would make all five of them. These judges frequently took the time to disqualify horses who did not make the cut in classes of 20-30 horses instead of simply excusing them. I heard of one class in which there were about 7 horses and they disqualified all but I think 3 of them. And these are the judges you speak of who are not trainers and are not in the horse business and are Confepaso and IPHF judges. Why did they NOT disqualify the horse if it did not meet the requirements of the class? Don't blame the judging system. That had nothing to do with it. Horses were disqaulified right and left all week.

And the horse had to be shown somewhere this year as it had to qualify. Just because it did not show in Florida, LOL, does not meen that it did not show.

Oh, sorry if I was incorrect, but I thought she was also working training horses (getting paid) at their farm. And, I certainly am not "putting" her down. She is a very lovely person! I like her a lot and think she did the best she could do on the horse, but I don't think it should have been placed.

Cindy your statement above just goes to show the inconsistent judging you will see at a PFHA show, and it is due to the flaws in the judging system. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact the judge is certified with Confepaso or not. (P.S. there is no such thing as a IPHF judge).

Oh here we go again with the LOL - taking a jab at Florida for no reason whatsoever. (Talk about professionalism - aren't you a trainer and a member of the BOD of PFHA?)

[SandyMM]

quite a few other members who feel that USA should maintain the heritage of the horseExactly whose/which heritage are we supposed to maintain? One "country of origin's" over another? They _are_ different even though related. Or should we in the US (be 'allowed' to) promote those parts of the heritage that work for us in associations that we control?

I, for one, am getting tired of being told that there is only one heritage that is meaningful and it _must_ include this or that horse/gait/style of movement/body type...

I would love to go back to the original breed description I first read that basically said Paso Fino horses were a _naturally_ gaited breed - even four beat gait - for an exceptionally smooth ride and no artificial devices/enhancements allowed. That's the horse I signed on for....

[jackymac]

Why don't you track down the owner(s) of the horse and tell them just how dissatisfied you are with them and their decision - maybe they'll give their ribbon back to make things right...:rolleyes: In the meantime, don't badmouth someone who actually made the effort to show up... many did not.

Be serious!! What I am saying AGAIN (and I am not yelling at you) is and it is my opinion and I am not badmouthing that the horse was NOT ready for the National. Period!

[Cindy]

Oh, sorry if I was incorrect, but I thought she was also working training horses (getting paid) at their farm. And, I certainly am not "putting" her down. She is a very lovely person! I like her a lot and think she did the best she could do on the horse, but I don't think it should have been placed.

Cindy your statement above just goes to show the inconsistent judging you will see at a PFHA show, and it is due to the flaws in the judging system. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact the judge is certified with Confepaso or not. (P.S. there is no such thing as a IPHF judge).

Oh here we go again with the LOL - taking a jab at Florida for no reason whatsoever. (Talk about professionalism - aren't you a trainer and a member of the BOD of PFHA?)

As I said it had nothing to do with the system. The system allowed the judges to disqualify the horses and they did not. And I have seen inconsistent judging in all venues. Especially Confepaso. You are kidding yourself if you think the same judges judge somehow differently just because the name of the Association is different. And by IPHF judges I meant that they have judged IPHF shows.

LOL is generally used when one is making a joke. "Laughing Out Loud", Ha ha. And it is used because when one is communicating via the written word, those who are reading do not know the inflection that is being placed on each word. Because they cannot hear this inflection, it is often useful to use acronyms such as LOL when one is making a joke or kidding so that the reader does not take the statement in a derogatory or hateful manner but rather in the light and joking manner in which it was intended. Since we all know that there are many more Paso Finos in Florida than there are anywhere else in the United States, it is a common joke amoung most people within the breed that nothing has happened in the Paso Fino world unless it happened in Florida. Thus the joke and the LOL in order to signify that it was in fact not serious. And this is why the LOL is so much easier to use than having to explain every sentence with a paragraph. And I am not nor have I been in the whole professionalism putdown party so please do not confuse me with a disagreement that you are having with someone else who I do not even know and try to drag me in on it.

[Lori Perez]

Exactly whose/which heritage are we supposed to maintain? One "country of origin's" over another? They _are_ different even though related. Or should we in the US (be 'allowed' to) promote those parts of the heritage that work for us in associations that we control?

I, for one, am getting tired of being told that there is only one heritage that is meaningful and it _must_ include this or that horse/gait/style of movement/body type...

I would love to go back to the original breed description I first read that basically said Paso Fino horses were a _naturally_ gaited breed - even four beat gait - for an exceptionally smooth ride and no artificial devices/enhancements allowed. That's the horse I signed on for....

There isn't one that is more "meaningful". We should hold on to the heritage of the horse, not to what we personally may want. To me then you end up with horses that are ruined by someone trying to re-invent the wheel. We always seem to want to do that to animals.

Sandy I agree strongly with you about a Paso Fino being naturally gaited w/ an even four beat gait. (That is what I breed for!!:)) But the diagonal Paso horses are just as important to the breed.

That is why I feel that if the PFHA members do not want the diagonals represented and do not want to be part of Confepaso, then PFHA should give up the a seat to ATTA registry so there is fair representation in this country.

[SandyMM]

What I am saying AGAIN (and I am not yelling at you)On the internet - all caps generally signifies yelling - hence the use of bold and italics for emphasis, emoticons for nuance, etc....

P.S. I am _very_ serious when it comes to protecting the Paso Fino gait in this country..... Perhaps you missed the emoticon in refence to contacting the owner of the 2nd place horse.... BTW, I don't know the horse, owner, or rider....

[jackymac]

Let me get my pop corn and pepsi, now we have Cindy explaining to us what LOL means.

Just kidding! :D

[Lori Perez]

As I said it had nothing to do with the system. The system allowed the judges to disqualify the horses and they did not. And I have seen inconsistent judging in all venues. Especially Confepaso. You are kidding yourself if you think the same judges judge somehow differently just because the name of the Association is different. And by IPHF judges I meant that they have judged IPHF shows.

LOL is generally used when one is making a joke. "Laughing Out Loud", Ha ha. And it is used because when one is communicating via the written word, those who are reading do not know the inflection that is being placed on each word. Because they cannot hear this inflection, it is often useful to use acronyms such as LOL when one is making a joke or kidding so that the reader does not take the statement in a derogatory or hateful manner but rather in the light and joking manner in which it was intended. Since we all know that there are many more Paso Finos in Florida than there are anywhere else in the United States, it is a common joke amoung most people within the breed that nothing has happened in the Paso Fino world unless it happened in Florida. Thus the joke and the LOL in order to signify that it was in fact not serious. And this is why the LOL is so much easier to use than having to explain every sentence with a paragraph. And I am not nor have I been in the whole professionalism putdown party so please do not confuse me with a disagreement that you are having with someone else who I do not even know and try to drag me in on it.

Thanks for the disertation on "LOL" I found it interesting you focused so much on that instead of the subject. (I know what you meant about LOL, however, there was no reason needed for the comment - no one ever said that since the horse wasn't from Florida.....)

[Siggy]

What year was confepaso created in?

[Serendipity]

question?

the pix of Jackys Stallion Bolero. are they all that thick? He looks almost drafty to me, now thats not a put down as i like draft horses but it is the appearance

also do they have a tendance to have fallen crests? I know some bloodlines in PF that have a lot of trocha in the blood tend to have fallen crests is this a throwback?

what causes the fallen crest in so many of our show stallions?

i'm asking not picking fights or poking fun you guys said we could ask

[Finoman]

As I said it had nothing to do with the system. The system allowed the judges to disqualify the horses and they did not. And I have seen inconsistent judging in all venues. Especially Confepaso. You are kidding yourself if you think the same judges judge somehow differently just because the name of the Association is different. And by IPHF judges I meant that they have judged IPHF shows.

LOL is generally used when one is making a joke. "Laughing Out Loud", Ha ha. And it is used because when one is communicating via the written word, those who are reading do not know the inflection that is being placed on each word. Because they cannot hear this inflection, it is often useful to use acronyms such as LOL when one is making a joke or kidding so that the reader does not take the statement in a derogatory or hateful manner but rather in the light and joking manner in which it was intended. Since we all know that there are many more Paso Finos in Florida than there are anywhere else in the United States, it is a common joke amoung most people within the breed that nothing has happened in the Paso Fino world unless it happened in Florida. Thus the joke and the LOL in order to signify that it was in fact not serious. And this is why the LOL is so much easier to use than having to explain every sentence with a paragraph. And I am not nor have I been in the whole professionalism putdown party so please do not confuse me with a disagreement that you are having with someone else who I do not even know and try to drag me in on it. I have watched this thread and been restainning myself to post..... The PFHA show have been lackluster, the judging is lopsided, protecting certain people. I am sure what I post here will cost me an excused in a class even with a killer horse that makes no mistakes. Over the years I have watched too many classes where the President of PFHA got high scores on a horse that could not walk, could not reverse in a walk, and break gait, and terrible transissions. The real winners got robbed. In the same show Our horse got poor placement after finishing 3rd in the spectrum out of 18 horses that had outstanding quality. Our horse also had won spectrum before. Finished 5th in both years 3-4 YO out of 33plus horses. In the class she entered into right after spectrum in Ashville, only 7 horses entered, All the horses in the class could not walk, complain with the head, could not walk in the reverse, had terrible rails, but still receive high placement, After knowing that I had completed a real good class no mistakes, excellent board, 6th? You know when youve done a good class, and see the others fighting with horses thoughout the class. I have seen this done to others all day long. Freinds watch out for freinds and customers. Nascar does not have interest in a team. The president has no ties to another team. If your going to be a governing body it should not be run by those who stand to gain. Horse owners are getting mad and the attendance is not just economic driven. PFHA just want to keep the same old thing going for all those in the circle. TOO MUCH POLITICS! What is being addressed???? People are upset with the judging! Its very wrong. I better not give that guy on the horse a bad score, he also a judge, He may give me a bad score in return at the next show. see what I mean???

[Finoman]

When there is know one left to attend the shows, they will listen.

[Lori Perez]

question?

the pix of Jackys Stallion Bolero. are they all that thick? He looks almost drafty to me, now thats not a put down as i like draft horses but it is the appearance

also do they have a tendance to have fallen crests? I know some bloodlines in PF that have a lot of trocha in the blood tend to have fallen crests is this a throwback?

what causes the fallen crest in so many of our show stallions?

i'm asking not picking fights or poking fun you guys said we could ask

Hey Nicole - No not all of them have bodies as stocking (and stunning:)) as Bolero. Most of the stallions will however have a thick arched neck (mares have thiner necks, just as like any other horse breed).

Just as with any other horse you will find they are not all alike. Here is just one example of another Trote stallion and you will see his body is not the same: (photo by Cheri Prill)

I don't think it happens anymore than in other thick necked horses. (I am no expert But I think it is caused by fatty deposited caused by hormones). Remember these horses (All Paso horses) are very hardy horses. We tend to feed them very well here in the USA.....Just like the people of the USA we are not as "lean" as most people in South America.

Hope that helps.

[Siggy]

finoman, I see your point but these other organizations are based on the exact same model. I see the president is also listed as a judge, the registrar is a breeder and owner, the show circuit is funded by and ran by breeding farms, trainers and judges.
I do not see any independant control in either of those organizations.

[Terry Wallace]

Fallen crests are thought to be heritable. I know I have witnessed fallen crests that most definitely run in certain lines. The jury is still out on this scientifically...but I'd bet it will come to be proven that most are heritable if it is not a known "man-made" problem.

Of course feeding a horse up into obesity can cause one too. Once that crest becomes too big for the neck muscles to keep standing...it can sure fall over. It gets so distorted..so "wide across" that the muscling cannot handle the load. "Man-made problem".

If you take a horse who has been obese, and cut back the feed, the neck can also fall over.

Just FYI about fallen crests..personally..I'd not breed to a horse that has one. There are far too many stallions out there that do not suffer from fallen crests for me to chance "breeding one"...JMO

[Finoman]

finoman, I see your point but these other organizations are based on the exact same model. I see the president is also listed as a judge, the registrar is a breeder and owner, the show circuit is funded by and ran by breeding farms, trainers and judges.
I do not see any independant control in either of those organizations. it may beTrue what you say. But they have kept it real since starting, Getting input from the riders, and farms. They listen and have kept the playing feild level at this point. Everyone just wants a fair shake. Build it and they will come!!!!!

[Siggy]

so you issue isnt with how they are all the same, just the people involved, I say build it the same and it will evolve in to the same thing.

PFHA was not like this many years ago either.

[jackymac]

question?

the pix of Jackys Stallion Bolero. are they all that thick? He looks almost drafty to me, now thats not a put down as i like draft horses but it is the appearance

also do they have a tendance to have fallen crests? I know some bloodlines in PF that have a lot of trocha in the blood tend to have fallen crests is this a throwback?

what causes the fallen crest in so many of our show stallions?

i'm asking not picking fights or poking fun you guys said we could ask

I can not answer that, but I can say that Bolero does not have a fallen crest, at least not now but don't know as he gets much older. I love his thick neck but again there is nothing I don't like about Bolero, he is the perfect horse to me! :-)

[Brigitte]

Diagonal horses usually have a heavier build than Paso Finos, but from what I have seen they do not tend to have fallen crests

[Lori Perez]

SIGGY - BIG HUGE difference, not the same model at all...You won't see any of us in the show ring judging at one of our own shows.

[Finoman]

so you issue isnt with how they are all the same, just the people involved, I say build it the same and it will evolve in to the same thing.

PFHA was not like this many years ago either. No different core values. Its not quite the same. PFHA has made no headway at all over the years, No direction, no marketing, no leadership. Just musical chairs. :mecry: 4 years ago when things were better, No attendace in the stands, No marketing. No advertisements, The mag is now a rag. If Ernhart Jr was the president of Nascar, Mark Martin was director and Jeff Gordon was the referee, and the drivers and owners were in charge, It would be a sport headed for the rocks.

[Lori Perez]

Are you a "Fineman" (Fino = Fine) as your name implies?? Your "picture" looks like you are ready for holloween:)
I like what you said above and the comparison to NASCAR.

[Serendipity]

okay the black horse is more refined,

next questions, Confepaso is for all modaitysof Pasos including PPR and Purivian correct? if you went to any Confepaso show you would see every paso right?

the first Pasos that came to the USA were PPR or from P.R. correct? PHOBA(not sure if that is right) set its breeds standard based on those horses correct?

are there any diagonal PPR horses? and if so they were they left out then? and if not if only Paso Fino gaited horses were there and that was what the origainal breed stardard was set on, it is understand able that those that are now told to except something that they had not bought into would be hard.

i also wonder about all the talk and hype about country of origin and that we must fallow the country of origin but which country? PAso Finos came from 2-3 differant places Col. and PPR the most i believe. So which country ar we suppose to fallow?

and Why is it so hard to believe and fallow that the US has blended the Col.,PPR,Cubin,And D.R, Pasos to make the best of both worlds w/ our own standards rules and likes and dislikes. like americans like Color and we like a smooth ride

most horse breeds have many origans Thoughbreds have Arab in them but you do not see a TB at and Arab show. its kind of like genetic if you keep fallowing the same blueprint that had some mistakes they keep getting bigger or they never improve. one example(mean nothing bad just an example) in Col. you have 5yrs to decide what modality your horse is going to be, my thinging who has five yrs to waste waiting for it to deside, i see my babys gait hours old i know they will do Paso Fino Gait, as i'm sure that those w/ Trocha Pura if bred to another trocha pura produce trocha pura am i correct?

i do not understand the TyG that when bred to a TyG can also produce a Trocha y G?

why can we not repect the orign but go our own way? kinda of like the when in Roman do as they do in Roman, this is Paso Fino of the USA and it is a mix of all the origanal countrys of Origin melted together to make one great horse able to do many things and siut many diff riders

[jackymac]

okay the black horse is more refined,


The black horse is Bolero's half brother, they have the same father which is Duelo. He is a much smaller horse, but beautiful (has fallen crest but could be that he much older than Bolero, not sure). He is the horse that took second place at the IPHF show in Miami in September, Don Pepe took First and Bolero took third. I personally prefer a much bigger T y G as Bolero is 15 hands. I had the pleasure to ride the black horse a few years ago and he was a vey nice horse, I also had the priviledge to have ridden Arafat at the Mundial in Jacksonville and that was a lot of fun. When you ride a nice collected Trote Y Galope, it is a very comfortable ride and it is very exciting. :-)

watch the video of IPHF Trote Y Galope Championship on Galopandotv.com

http://www.galopandotv.com/galopando_results.php

If you would like to read about the T y G breed, you can go to www.usatta.org in case some of you don't know. It is a very helpful in understanding this great breed.

[Siggy]

Still waiting on answers to
When was was Confepaso created?
Does attending IPHF classes qualify for Mundial?

[Kerry W]

CONFEPASO was created in the early 1990's (in Puerto Rico I think). It was created to establish and maintain one set of rules for international competition (La Mundial).

La Mundial is like the olympics...you don't have to qualify at shows to earn points to show at La Mundial. It is a show where competitors come together every two years, and the host country changes. Last time it was in the US, this time it is in Colombia, next time it will be either Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic.

For Nicole. Santana del Cardo is the only PINTO World Cup (La Mundial 1999) champion. So if the fallacy that they don't allow pintos is the only reason you don't like CONFEPASO, then you now have no reason at all not to like it. All it took was for his owner (Debbie King I think), to get him ready for the show, load his butt up on the trailer and go. That whole "you must be present to win" mentality really worked out for her.

[Serendipity]

[QUOTE][watch the video of IPHF Trote Y Galope Championship on Galopandotv.com/QUOTE]

sorry i can't watch vidoes my computer is to slow

its odd how some genetics go my 2 half sisters by same sire are very alike. I'm not up to reading about them its a vage curiousity at this point. i may look at one in person someday but i normally only read up on a horse a intend to own or get stuck with (like the Holsteiner)

but i would like to see one in person someday,as i've gone to shows to see Freisians and andulians and a few other breeds (still would like to see a Fell Pony in person and the indain horse w/ the curley ears), but i don't want to see them at a PFHA show,no disrespect intended but they are not the same horse they are a differnt breed or a cross breed to me and i don't feel they belong at a Paso Fino breed show-jmo

[Serendipity]

For Nicole. Santana del Cardo is the only PINTO World Cup (La Mundial 1999) champion. So if the fallacy that they don't allow pintos is the only reason you don't like CONFEPASO, then you now have no reason at all not to like it. All it took was for his owner (Debbie King I think), to get him ready for the show, load his butt up on the trailer and go. That whole "you must be present to win" mentality really worked out for her.


good point but it is odd it has not been done since, showing is expence just the getting there and i have no problem load my horses butt in ther trailer and going i'd have a HUGE problem if i got there and was turned away because of color.

So was Santana the only Pinto to ever show in Confepaso? and why since he opened the door as you say has no more entered? i've heard it was a fluke and now they are completely not allowed unless they are on US soil i believe but none at the last US Confepaso show???

and since only allowed here what if a Pinto won the class here in the US the owners could not compete him to reafirm the title because he would then not be allowed in the other countrys he'd have to wait what 4yrs to reestablish his title??

[Siggy]

I explained this before. Santana was able to place because it was the first time that the following was offered at Mundial.
Pleasure
Performance
A/O
None of those divisions had ever been offered because they do not exist in countries of origin and this was the first time Mundial was offered in the USA.
They simply did not have rules in place for those divisions.
You would never see a pinto allowed at a Mundial in Colombia or PR because they do not remove any of the confepaso rules there.

[Kerry W]

You'll have to ask other pinto owners why they've not taken their horses to La Mundial. As far as I know, there is no one stopping them, but themselves.

Santana won in the Pleasure division, To my knowledge, they do not hold pleasure classes in all host countries. A fluke? He beat every other horse in his classes, of all colors. When you say it was a fluke, it sounds as if you are suggesting he was not deserving of his title. Why do you think he was not deserving?

Yes, showing is expensive. Sending your horse to a foreign country, putting them in quarantine, and securing a facility for them to recover from the trip well enough to be truly competitive in a foreign country is even more expensive. Not to mention the stress on your beloved animal from such a trip. Would you be willing to do all of that, if they held pleasure classes in Colombia? Not many people would. I wouldn't. That may be one reason why they don't offer them in other countries. Aside from the fact that they don't have divisions (performance and pleasure) in all host countries at their regular shows.

CONFEPASO is a group from all countries, who made rules for one type of show. If they included all classes from all associations who sit on their board, the shows would last for a month. To draw competitors, spectators and revenue, they try to tailor the shows to suit the host countries. We have pleasure classes, Puerto Rico has PPR classes, etc. Why schedule classes for people who aren't likely to show up?

CONFEPASO is not for everyone. I do agree with that, but please don't give false information out to those who may be interested in showing at a show like that. The show in Jacksonville was a very nice show. PFHA did an excellent job with it, despite a lack of support from a good part of it's membership. It was something we could all be proud of, if we weren't so busy finding reasons to hate it.

[Cindy]

It is interesting the perception that a judge who is involved in the breed as a profesion is a bad thing but that there is no perceived problem with a breeder who basically owns an Association, provides funding for an Association, provides the prize money for an Association, has all of those "impartial" judges to his farm for the weekend as well as paying their way to this country to judge here, etc, etc... showing his horses in said Association shows. Hmm.:rolleyes:

[Cindy]

You'll have to ask other pinto owners why they've not taken their horses to La Mundial. As far as I know, there is no one stopping them, but themselves.

Santana won in the Pleasure division, To my knowledge, they do not hold pleasure classes in all host countries. A fluke? He beat every other horse in his classes, of all colors. When you say it was a fluke, it sounds as if you are suggesting he was not deserving of his title. Why do you think he was not deserving?

Yes, showing is expensive. Sending your horse to a foreign country, putting them in quarantine, and securing a facility for them to recover from the trip well enough to be truly competitive in a foreign country is even more expensive. Not to mention the stress on your beloved animal from such a trip. Would you be willing to do all of that, if they held pleasure classes in Colombia? Not many people would. I wouldn't. That may be one reason why they don't offer them in other countries. Aside from the fact that they don't have divisions (performance and pleasure) in all host countries at their regular shows.

CONFEPASO is a group from all countries, who made rules for one type of show. If they included all classes from all associations who sit on their board, the shows would last for a month. To draw competitors, spectators and revenue, they try to tailor the shows to suit the host countries. We have pleasure classes, Puerto Rico has PPR classes, etc. Why schedule classes for people who aren't likely to show up?

CONFEPASO is not for everyone. I do agree with that, but please don't give false information out to those who may be interested in showing at a show like that. The show in Jacksonville was a very nice show. PFHA did an excellent job with it, despite a lack of support from a good part of it's membership. It was something we could all be proud of, if we weren't so busy finding reasons to hate it.

Other Pinto owners have not taken their horses to other Mundials because they would be disallowed and disqualified from the prepista for having too much white. The Confepaso representatives from this country worked very hard to get those classes and color accepted at that Mundial. They also worked hard to get Amateur Owner classes accepted to the show. Then on the morning of the AO classes, the judges stated that they refused to judge those classes. They ended up judging them but threw out most of the competitors. Having an inclination of this prevaling attitude prior to the competition is what kept many people from spending their money and time to compete that year.

Why schedule classes for people who aren't likely to show up?


How many diagonal horses showed up in Puerto Rico?

[Kerry W]

It is interesting the perception that a judge who is involved in the breed as a profesion is a bad thing but that there is no perceived problem with a breeder who basically owns an Association, provides funding for an Association, provides the prize money for an Association, has all of those "impartial" judges to his farm for the weekend as well as paying their way to this country to judge here, etc, etc... showing his horses in said Association shows. Hmm.:rolleyes:

I agree. I never thought that having "management" showing their horses at our shows, or judging them was a bad thing. It's not like we're so big that we can really exclude that many people from any type of activity involving our breed. Not to mention the fact that our breed has nuances that judges who have experience with the breed are more likely to recognize and appreciate.

I also agree about the "said association". I appreciate the opportunity for the public to see our horses...but have little faith in it otherwise.

[Kerry W]

Other Pinto owners have not taken their horses to other Mundials because they would be disallowed and disqualified from the prepista for having too much white. The Confepaso representatives from this country worked very hard to get those classes and color accepted at that Mundial. They also worked hard to get Amateur Owner classes accepted to the show. Then on the morning of the AO classes, the judges stated that they refused to judge those classes. They ended up judging them but threw out most of the competitors. Having an inclination of this prevaling attitude prior to the competition is what kept many people from spending their money and time to compete that year.

So how did Santana win? Only one there? Judges drew numbers out of a hat? Did he earn his title or no?



How many diagonal horses showed up in Puerto Rico?

How many showed up here? Not many. Again, that's up to the owners of the horses, not me, to determine. I think there ARE people who own and show diagonals in Puerto Rico, just as there are owners who show their diagonals here...thus the inclusion of classes for horses that might actually show up. How many show Pleasure horses in Colombia?

[SandyMM]

I explained this before. Santana was able to place because it was the first time that the following was offered at Mundial.
Pleasure
Performance
A/O
None of those divisions had ever been offered because they do not exist in countries of origin
And we wonder why there is so much confusion when we here in the US insist that our Paso Finos can do more... Where are the 'do more' Pasos in other countries? Are they even registered? Do they show? Not every horse is a show horse, so what use are these horses put to in their 'countries of origin'?

Since there are no A/O classes in 'countries of origin', I assume professionals are the _only_ ones who are 'allowed' to show there? If so, then that alone is a striking difference between the US and other countries and explains a lot of the cultural difference in the attitude towards showing/training, etc... It is also, I believe, the push to call 'open' classes here 'Pro' classes.... I firmly believe that if your horse is good enough, you should have the right to show it yourself against the best competition available.

[Kerry W]

And we wonder why there is so much confusion when we here in the US insist that our Paso Finos can do more... Where are the 'do more' Pasos in other countries? Are they even registered? Do they show? Not every horse is a show horse, so what use are these horses put to in their 'countries of origin'?

Since there are no A/O classes in 'countries of origin', I assume professionals are the _only_ ones who are 'allowed' to show there? If so, then that alone is a striking difference between the US and other countries and explains a lot of the cultural difference in the attitude towards showing/training, etc... It is also, I believe, the push to call 'open' classes here 'Pro' classes.... I firmly believe that if your horse is good enough, you should have the right to show it yourself against the best competition available.

Maybe their board of directors should suspend the rules to issue certificates of validation, so the horses they traditionally exclude could show at their shows. :v:

[pnalley]

Jackie,
Someday I'm going to knock on your door and ask for a ride on Bolero. He looks like a fun horse!

[SandyMM]

More likely, the US should stop trying to emulate a format that simply doesn't mesh with US beliefs and traditions of self-sufficiency and pride in personal accomplishment. I, for one, would love to see an A/O/T division that encouraged and supported true amateur/owner/riders/exhibitors/trainers.....

[Lori Perez]

You'll have to ask other pinto owners why they've not taken their horses to La Mundial. As far as I know, there is no one stopping them, but themselves.

Santana won in the Pleasure division, To my knowledge, they do not hold pleasure classes in all host countries. A fluke? He beat every other horse in his classes, of all colors. When you say it was a fluke, it sounds as if you are suggesting he was not deserving of his title. Why do you think he was not deserving?

Yes, showing is expensive. Sending your horse to a foreign country, putting them in quarantine, and securing a facility for them to recover from the trip well enough to be truly competitive in a foreign country is even more expensive. Not to mention the stress on your beloved animal from such a trip. Would you be willing to do all of that, if they held pleasure classes in Colombia? Not many people would. I wouldn't. That may be one reason why they don't offer them in other countries. Aside from the fact that they don't have divisions (performance and pleasure) in all host countries at their regular shows.

CONFEPASO is a group from all countries, who made rules for one type of show. If they included all classes from all associations who sit on their board, the shows would last for a month. To draw competitors, spectators and revenue, they try to tailor the shows to suit the host countries. We have pleasure classes, Puerto Rico has PPR classes, etc. Why schedule classes for people who aren't likely to show up?

CONFEPASO is not for everyone. I do agree with that, but please don't give false information out to those who may be interested in showing at a show like that. The show in Jacksonville was a very nice show. PFHA did an excellent job with it, despite a lack of support from a good part of it's membership. It was something we could all be proud of, if we weren't so busy finding reasons to hate it.

Thank you Kerry. And, FYI PR in 2003 offered A/O and performance classes. I would like to ask how many Pinto owners inquired with PFHA about showing at the Mundial that was held here in 2007? I think that if they really wanted to compete they would have been able to. I say you may be making excuses without the validation. It maybe something you can address to the PFHA Confepaso delegate Dr. Lauracuente.

[Lori Perez]

It is interesting the perception that a judge who is involved in the breed as a profesion is a bad thing but that there is no perceived problem with a breeder who basically owns an Association, provides funding for an Association, provides the prize money for an Association, has all of those "impartial" judges to his farm for the weekend as well as paying their way to this country to judge here, etc, etc... showing his horses in said Association shows. Hmm.:rolleyes:

OMG Cindy I can't believe you have such sour grapes. If you talk to a multitute of knowledgeable horse lovers, breeders and show people, they will tell you that the show your referring to was one of the best judged shows they have ever seen or participated at. If you are accusing him of that, then why is it he didn't WIN all the classes, especially the big prize money classes? You are really off base to make such a statement. The person you are referring to doesn't own an association! First of all IPHF is not an association, and he doesn't own it...But if he did 'own' it as you say, there is nothing wrong with a person providing start up money for a business to get started to cover expenses. This is called working capital. How do you know about the facts and finances of the organization anyway? Can you answer that?

Oh but I guess I shouldn't be surprised coming from a person (like too many other people within PFHA who just about ruined it over the last couple of years) who likes things the good ole way, the same ole people, no progression, no new market, no new sales, fast shrinking membership base. Before you know it you will be part of a nice LITTLE Paso Fino association. As a member, I am mad that this has happened to an organization that I have been a member of for a LONG time and have supposed and promoted. So much narrow mindedness.

Funny how PFHA and the show committee for Nationals accepted the sponsorship from this person for the expensive Grand Championship Blankets. How does PFHA put on Nationals or any other big show? Surely you don't think it is from stall money or entry fees..They depend on big sponsorship money! PFHA is losing big sponsorships faster than the Titanic sunk and it is not just because of the economy. Why should any person continue to sink $10-$20K into an association each year at Nationals, when the handwritting is on the wall....

This person you are referring to has done more for the breed (going back to the early 1980's) than most all the members combined. At least he makes things happen and has great marketing ideas.
You better get all your facts right before accusing anyone. It is terrible what green envy will do to a person.

Oh and isn't it what the "anti-Confepaso/diagonals" PFHA members wanted all along.
Hum like that saying.... "be careful what you wish for, it might just come true". Well now there is an alternative show circuit for those who want to show at the International level under International rules that is exciting and fun.

[Lori Perez]

Other Pinto owners have not taken their horses to other Mundials because they would be disallowed and disqualified from the prepista for having too much white. The Confepaso representatives from this country worked very hard to get those classes and color accepted at that Mundial. They also worked hard to get Amateur Owner classes accepted to the show. Then on the morning of the AO classes, the judges stated that they refused to judge those classes. They ended up judging them but threw out most of the competitors. Having an inclination of this prevaling attitude prior to the competition is what kept many people from spending their money and time to compete that year.


Talk about holding on to the past, that was 1999, 10 years ago! And, a lot of that was due to a lack of communication and PFHA was partially to blame for that. What was the excuse for the next Mundial that was held here?

[Lori Perez]

So how did Santana win? Only one there? Judges drew numbers out of a hat? Did he earn his title or no?





How many showed up here? Not many. Again, that's up to the owners of the horses, not me, to determine. I think there ARE people who own and show diagonals in Puerto Rico, just as there are owners who show their diagonals here...thus the inclusion of classes for horses that might actually show up. How many show Pleasure horses in Colombia?

Cindy/Kerry - I think there were just about the same amount of diagonals there as A/O riders. Not too many.

The reason Santana won is because he was a good horse and deserved to win.

[Siggy]

I think the answer is pretty clear, the membership is not that impressed with nor do they see a need for Confepaso. The participants that do want to attend Mundial are represented.

Get over the white rule, it is only 1 of a number of aspects that is not of interest to a larger majority of people. That's right, majority. That is why the other organizations were formed, for the minority and they are more than welcome to create their own rules by chapter, fraternize with officials before shows and run their organizations any way their membership feels inclined.

The Confepaso representatives from this country worked very hard to get those classes and color accepted at that Mundial. They also worked hard to get Amateur Owner classes accepted to the show

It is not a simple as asking a delegate to remove the rules from confepaso, and if that delegate or their team are not interested in doing so then it wont get done.

Some of us are still awaiting answers to questions asked in this thread as well.

[Lori Perez]

I agree. I never thought that having "management" showing their horses at our shows, or judging them was a bad thing. It's not like we're so big that we can really exclude that many people from any type of activity involving our breed. Not to mention the fact that our breed has nuances that judges who have experience with the breed are more likely to recognize and appreciate.

I also agree about the "said association". I appreciate the opportunity for the public to see our horses...but have little faith in it otherwise.

Kerry don't buy into it. We should be happy that our breed is out there being represented. We made history by having our horses on TV (National & Int'l) during prime time! There were thousands of people there. This is an opportunity for ALL paso owners to open up our market just when it is needed the most.

You know I have never wanted to put down judges, etc. My point has always been that it is our judging system, lack of training of judges (funding for this was removed before the bank account was empty), not the intregity of the person judging (and that kind of stuff goes on in anything that is judged). But I do believe PFHA is too small not to have more outside judges who don't know the trainers/farms at the shows they are judging. Educate them too! I say most of them don't know if a horse is in gait or not. Just because a judge used to be a trainer doesn't make them a good judge either, they could have been a bad trainer!

[Finoman]

It is interesting the perception that a judge who is involved in the breed as a profesion is a bad thing but that there is no perceived problem with a breeder who basically owns an Association, provides funding for an Association, provides the prize money for an Association, has all of those "impartial" judges to his farm for the weekend as well as paying their way to this country to judge here, etc, etc... showing his horses in said Association shows. Hmm.:rolleyes: Core values! Dont go there.Better than the musical chair club.

[Finoman]

It is interesting the perception that a judge who is involved in the breed as a profesion is a bad thing but that there is no perceived problem with a breeder who basically owns an Association, provides funding for an Association, provides the prize money for an Association, has all of those "impartial" judges to his farm for the weekend as well as paying their way to this country to judge here, etc, etc... showing his horses in said Association shows. Hmm.:rolleyes: Once again, This is a musical chair member with ties to the other BOD and Judges. Dont make her mad, she may have a direct reflection on your score at the next PFHA event. See what I mean? When you go to a show, you can see fair judging and then you can see protective judging.

[jackymac]

Jackie,
Someday I'm going to knock on your door and ask for a ride on Bolero. He looks like a fun horse!

Come on over but Cheri Prill who is here with me now says you will have to fight her for him...hahahhaha! :D Of course you are welcome to ride my boy,anytime! He is fun and safe..

[lisa l aka marci]

I had a chance to ride Antanas Mokus one day...AWESOME ride.....I wouldn't mind owning one just for the 'wow' factor when riding....but right now can't afford one!

[Lori Perez]

More likely, the US should stop trying to emulate a format that simply doesn't mesh with US beliefs and traditions of self-sufficiency and pride in personal accomplishment. I, for one, would love to see an A/O/T division that encouraged and supported true amateur/owner/riders/exhibitors/trainers.....

Sandy that is just your personal opinion, please don't talk for all us others (U.S. beliefs). We already have an open class where anyone can ride in. The A/O class was created just for the owners of the horse. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be competitive and know how to ride really well.

[pnalley]

Jacky,
I have seen Cheri, I can take her in an unfair fight:v:

I really would like to try him some day. He does look fun, and that is why I have horses, to bring me pleasure!

[Lori Perez]

I had a chance to ride Antanas Mokus one day...AWESOME ride.....I wouldn't mind owning one just for the 'wow' factor when riding....but right now can't afford one!

Jacky say hello to Cheri! Hope she is feeling back to herself. Hey Lisa that is really nice that you were able to ride two great stallions. You maybe surprised about being able to afford one now that there are more young horses that are on the ground.

[Lori Perez]

Lisa - here is a picture of Antanas in his younger years, and another one I found of Bolero with Jacky :) that Cheri took.
Jacky hope you don't mind, but I just LOVE this picture. It really shows your love for Bolero and you can see the softness in his eyes!

Maybe we can get back to talking about the horses huh?
I have to go for now, I am working on finishing up registrations. I have six new ones on my desk. I will be handing them over to a new person next week because we are getting too busy.

Lisa where do you live??

[Lori Perez]

Oh I meant to also post thess pictures that were taken (Cheri Prill again :)) at the first IPHF show in Jacksonville, FL. There was great entertainment during the evening as well as this super nice flag ceramony and there were two Trote y Galope stallions in it. One represented the USA, the other the country of Colombia.

Bolero who was ridden by Debbie (I don't have her last name - sorry.) who won a championship title at the youth Mundial in Colombia (I believe she rode a Trocha mare). She is an wonderful example of the youth that are in the breed today. And, the other is a stallion by the name of Emperador who is ridden by Diego Bravo. This stallion is proudly owned by Dr. Robert & Mrs. (Becky) Anderson. Diego is one of the best instructors & educators of the Paso horse, an author of two equine books and has been back in the show ring competing this past year:) Diego also served on the BOD of the ATTA with me for several years and was an approved ATTA judge.

[Lori Perez]

A couple of people asked me who the horses were in our logo.

Andariego de la Jota who is a two time reserve world champion & now USA National Champion
Soberbio de la Lusia who is a two time gramd world champion
Abad de la Lusia who is titled also, but I am not 100% which ones he has.

I also attached a photo/ad that Cheri & I did for a magazine ad of Don Pepe; current Champion in his age division & reserve world champion, and Arafat del Punto current Champion in his age division & Grand world Champion.

[Cindy]

Wow, you guys sure get nasty when someone brings up an issue that you don't like. I never said that I personally had a problem with any Association or any judging system or well, anything. I simply stated what I felt was an interesting observation. And Finoman, it is very hard to make me mad so you don't need to worry about that.

[Lori Perez]

Wow, you guys sure get nasty when someone brings up an issue that you don't like. I never said that I personally had a problem with any Association or any judging system or well, anything. I simply stated what I felt was an interesting observation. And Finoman, it is very hard to make me mad so you don't need to worry about that.

Cindy you were the one that was making statements that were way off base (almost offensive). I don't think they were misunderstood either. Yep, you did make statements that you "personally" had a problem with IPHF, it was your observation, no one elses. Hey if you wouldn't say those words in front of that persons face, then I wouldn't be saying it on here.

But, you know what I say "Que Sera, Sera"

[lisa l aka marci]

Lori - yes, I have seen the picture of Antanes...I have some video of him too that I took at Buttermilk Farm a couple/three years ago....

I am up in NY - HOWEVER I will be spending a week in Virginia (hour from Richmond@) next month, and will be in Orlando the end of January!


Lisa - here is a picture of Antanas in his younger years, and another one I found of Bolero with Jacky :) that Cheri took.
Jacky hope you don't mind, but I just LOVE this picture. It really shows your love for Bolero and you can see the softness in his eyes!

Maybe we can get back to talking about the horses huh?
I have to go for now, I am working on finishing up registrations. I have six new ones on my desk. I will be handing them over to a new person next week because we are getting too busy.

Lisa where do you live??

[Lori Perez]

The black horse is Bolero's half brother, they have the same father which is Duelo.

Hey Jacky here is a picture Bolero's 1/2 sister "Pandora" (Ad by Cheri), she is now owned by Celestine Farms in South Carolina (Matt & Lisa Cooney). Lisa just LOVES her and so do all of her horse friends. She is bred to a Son of Soberbio de la Luisa. She would have been a great match with Bolero if they weren't so closely related (too bad).

Riders are; Julio Perez, Cheri Prill and Jacky McDaniels:)

[Lori Perez]

Lori - yes, I have seen the picture of Antanes...I have some video of him too that I took at Buttermilk Farm a couple/three years ago....

I am up in NY - HOWEVER I will be spending a week in Virginia (hour from Richmond@) next month, and will be in Orlando the end of January!

Leo Lomingino has a really nice daughter out of Antanas that we trained here at our farm. She is Trocha. She is big and extremely well gaited. You should go by their farm to see Antanas. He just recently went back up there. He is pure white now. If you are in Orlando, you won't be that far from Ocala. Maybe you can arrange with Jacky to come up and ride Bolero! Take care, Lori

PS - Do you know Kimberly Wallace? She did the website for ATTA and for my farm and she LOVES the Trote y Galope horses. She is located in MA., but I think she keeps her Paso at Leo's farm now.

[Cindy]

Cindy you were the one that was making statements that were way off base (almost offensive). I don't think they were misunderstood either. Yep, you did make statements that you "personally" had a problem with IPHF, it was your observation, no one elses. Hey if you wouldn't say those words in front of that persons face, then I wouldn't be saying it on here.

But, you know what I say "Que Sera, Sera"

Please show me where I said that I personally had a problem with anyone. I am not the one on here who has alluded to judges being politcal or placing people or being unethical in their decision in any way shape or form. That has all come from you guys. Just because one brings up a different side to the situation or presents "food for thought" does not mean that one feels personally that way. It's called objectivity. Which statements did you deem to be "offensive"?

[jackymac]

Lori,
Cheri is here with us working on our website, wait till you see this site, it will be beautiful. I drag her over to the green way this morning to take pictures with two of my stallions and they were so fantastic, wait till you see these pictures.
Cheri is blushing as we speak from all the post, and you can put up pictures of Bolero and me, I don't mind at all. :-)

Lisa, come by the farm if you get a chance when you go to Orlando, I will let you ride Bolero :D

[Lori Perez]

Lori,
Cheri is here with us working on our website, wait till you see this site, it will be beautiful. I drag her over to the green way this morning to take pictures with two of my stallions and they were so fantastic, wait till you see these pictures.
Cheri is blushing as we speak from all the post, and you can put up pictures of Bolero and me, I don't mind at all. :-)

Lisa, come by the farm if you get a chance when you go to Orlando, I will let you ride Bolero :D

WOW, please tell Cheri to stop here on her way back home! I would kill for her to give mine a new "do", I don't even have most of my horses on their. I need pictures too! I am very happy for you. I can't wait to see it and that picture on the greenway; well it sounds great:)

[Finoman]

Wow, you guys sure get nasty when someone brings up an issue that you don't like. I never said that I personally had a problem with any Association or any judging system or well, anything. I simply stated what I felt was an interesting observation. And Finoman, it is very hard to make me mad so you don't need to worry about that.OHHHHH but you will not forget. You fail to reconize the faults and just defend. Judges are never held accountable. I am not NASTY! I am just fed up and was near getting out just because I am tired of the BS, Thats what you guys want,,, for everyone to go away. Dont listen and try to have a open mind. Big Goverment.:mad2:

[jackymac]

Please show me where I said that I personally had a problem with anyone. I am not the one on here who has alluded to judges being politcal or placing people or being unethical in their decision in any way shape or form. That has all come from you guys. Just because one brings up a different side to the situation or presents "food for thought" does not mean that one feels personally that way. It's called objectivity. Which statements did you deem to be "offensive"?

Cindy wrote and I quote"""It is interesting the perception that a judge who is involved in the breed as a profesion is a bad thing but that there is no perceived problem with a breeder who basically owns an Association, provides funding for an Association, provides the prize money for an Association, has all of those "impartial" judges to his farm for the weekend as well as paying their way to this country to judge here, etc, etc... showing his horses in said Association shows. Hmm. """"" with rolling eyes!!

"""It is interesting the perception that a judge who is involved in the breed as a profesion is a bad thing""" It can be very bad, but we are not saying that every judge is bad as there are a handful of good ones.

Cindy,
You can act blind as much as you want but the proof is in the pudding, the people are just not showing up anymore and don't blame it on the economy. If you and everybody on your organization spent more time in fixing the problems and mainly the judging, we may have better shows! Instead you are more worried about the other group, intead of listening to all of us who are members you just try to protect PFHA and act like everything is ok, you guys just don't listen to the owners. We are trying to tell you the things that are bothering us but you just don't see it...

I will ask you one question, do you see any problems at all with the PFHA association?

[Finoman]

Please show me where I said that I personally had a problem with anyone. I am not the one on here who has alluded to judges being politcal or placing people or being unethical in their decision in any way shape or form. That has all come from you guys. Just because one brings up a different side to the situation or presents "food for thought" does not mean that one feels personally that way. It's called objectivity. Which statements did you deem to be "offensive"? Your food for thought is more stir the crap and a way of putting air freshner on the stink. You , or your pals, and customers will not show in IPHF because you will not have control in the governing body. Not your local club showing.

[SandyMM]

Not supporting IPHF for some goes _far_ beyond your shallow assumptions, Finoman.... Did it ever occur to you that some people just don't support its basic premise - i.e. the Paso Horse vs. the Paso Fino horse? While I support anybody's right to promote, show, and enjoy whatever 'modality'/breed they choose, I do _not_ support the idea that _I_ have to embrace and support every modality, nor should the association and registry I support be coerced into doing so in the name of a 'heritage' which throughout the centuries - right up into this century - has modified its portion of the breed to suit its own needs, wants, and preferences.

[Siggy]

yes, PFHA has problems, most organizations do. Right now our biggest one is the push by a select group to change our organization from it's origin.

We had a person at the helm who wanted to please those people inspite of the majority not wanting the change and that person cost us a fortune to get rid of. Now we have to draw back on the very roots of our organization and take control of it again.

I believe my questions were not answered because 1) PFHA (PFOBA) was around before Confepaso and 2) no other USA organization can hold events where horses can be qualified for Mundial. I could be wrong but without answers from those organizations (actually one organization because they have merged) it is hard to tell.

So it IS a good thing that IPHF and ATTA are in existence, those people have a place to go and PFHA can get back to doing what it needs to do. We are not dictating anything to either group, they can hold what ever events, in what ever manner they want. Go there, go well but quit harping in PFHA to change when you are not even wanting to be there. You have a place to go, you say it is better, it is stronger and you like it better.
Then you should rejoice in what you have and quit being concerned about the thing that you dont want.
It sounds as if your organizations are taylor made for you. That should be enough.

[CarolU]

I can tell you why I no longer show in PFHA shows...and it's probably why our region doesn't put them on any more, since no one else here shows in them either (I should interject that each State has an active Chapter of people who DO show in open and FOSH shows, so it's not like we aren't showing).

If PFHA shows were judged according to the rule book, I'd still show. Most of us here have Pleasure horses, nice horses who are consistent, good manners, go down the trail, easy going. Some are quicker then others, some are lower gaited. Some have a more open, ground-covering gait - a lot of Coral and Pegasus lines out here. but few have the quick, short gait preferred by the judging, and none of us jack our horses up to get the 'brio up" and get a faster performance. These are Pleasure horses in every definition of the word.

What has taken over the PFHA (and IPFA is no different, if not worse) show ring is the Fino horse. All the horses in all 3 divisions and BF all gait the same, move the same, have the same quickness, same training, same, same, same. A regular Paso Fino has no chance in the Pleasure Division, even Country Pleasure is often placed to the quickest gait instead of the nicest mannered, smoothest, or most consistent horse. It's all, ONLY about speed of footfall.

So why waste your time and money supporting an organization that caters to ONE type of horse? Essentially, the super-quick Colombian horse. It's taken over and dominated the show ring and pushed out everyone else, and the judges judge accordingly. Most are, after all, training this exact horse.

I have no use for PFHA, Nationals, Spectrum, IPFA, none of them. I'd rather show in Open shows, where judges read and FOLLOW the PFHA rule book....where Performance horses win Performance and Pleasure horses win Pleasure. Where it's not JUST 3 speeds/executions of Fino.

[Lori Perez]

So why waste your time and money supporting an organization that caters to ONE type of horse? Essentially, the super-quick Colombian horse. It's taken over and dominated the show ring and pushed out everyone else, and the judges judge accordingly. Most are, after all, training this exact horse.

Carol I agree with on most everything you said except for the paragraph above. The super quick, tight, short Fino horses were what the Americans were trying to achieve and Puerto Ricans love the tightly collected horse. In fact if you go to shows in Colombia or talk to breeders from Colombia...you would understand they are not as interested in collection and quickness of the footfall as we seem to be here. Don't blame it on the Colombian's!! They didn't start this trend:)

It goes back to the judges, they have control of the show ring. And, they set trends by placing horses of a certain type. People tend to purchase, and breed according to what is winning in the show ring (which is a bad way of doing it, because a good show horse is not neccessairly going to be a good breeding horse). For me there is nothing more fustrating than to see a pleasure horse that is pulling, bobbing the head, swishing it tail, and is unable to make a marked transition from a corto to a largo.

[Lori Perez]

Siggy - not sure what you are referring to about the questions. But, I answered many of your questions, or referred you to somewhere else other than this forum. If that is not good enough, then sorry. I have stopped answering them because there is no way to every satisfy you and it is always an agrument.

[Finoman]

Not supporting IPHF for some goes _far_ beyond your shallow assumptions, Finoman.... Did it ever occur to you that some people just don't support its basic premise - i.e. the Paso Horse vs. the Paso Fino horse? While I support anybody's right to promote, show, and enjoy whatever 'modality'/breed they choose, I do _not_ support the idea that _I_ have to embrace and support every modality, nor should the association and registry I support be coerced into doing so in the name of a 'heritage' which throughout the centuries - right up into this century - has modified its portion of the breed to suit its own needs, wants, and preferences. LALALALA just hold your hands over your ears. Dont do anything to make things better. I own Paso Finos and just want a fair shake when it comes to going to an event.

[Siggy]

My hands are not over my ears, I am just saying that those that want to work within PFHA now have the opportunity as the others that only what they want now have IPHF.
Your fair share finoman, so you want IPHF your way and PFHA your way? What about those that dont care to have any involvement with IPHF and want PFHA to be developed for them? Dont they get a fair share?

All I can say is, you have IPHF your way, why isnt that enough?

[Siggy]

Lori I asked 2 very direct questions
Do IPHF shows qualify participants for Mundial?
When was Confepaso created?

[jackymac]

So it IS a good thing that IPHF and ATTA are in existence, those people have a place to go and PFHA can get back to doing what it needs to do. We are not dictating anything to either group, they can hold what ever events, in what ever manner they want. Go there, go well but quit harping in PFHA to change when you are not even wanting to be there. You have a place to go, you say it is better, it is stronger and you like it better.
Then you should rejoice in what you have and quit being concerned about the thing that you dont want.
It sounds as if your organizations are taylor made for you. That should be enough.

Who said we (Tres and I) did not want to show in PFHA? we said there were problems. We showed this year and we will next year.

You are so wrong, do you even read our post or just glance over them? We have a total of 11 paso fino horses and we have been showing with PFHA for 5 years in several of their events, every year in different states and of course Florida, we are current members of PFHA till this day, I beleive that gives me the right to say what I think since I am a member and see problems with this association, what make you say that I do want to go to the PFHA shows? why do you think so many people are on here talking about it? Do you even go to the shows? do you even see what is going on? I want PFHA to get better and this is why we are voicing our opinions.Our horses shows in fino classes, in professional with our trainer and A/O Fino with Tres, Tres loves to compete and I watch :-), I personally prefer to watch the fino classes but I have nothing against pleasure or performance.

I also go to IPHF shows because we like the people that organize the event and we like the judging system because it is fair and the prize money and etc....etc...etc...

We want to show in both associations. That's all! :-)

[Finoman]

I can tell you why I no longer show in PFHA shows...and it's probably why our region doesn't put them on any more, since no one else here shows in them either (I should interject that each State has an active Chapter of people who DO show in open and FOSH shows, so it's not like we aren't showing).

If PFHA shows were judged according to the rule book, I'd still show. Most of us here have Pleasure horses, nice horses who are consistent, good manners, go down the trail, easy going. Some are quicker then others, some are lower gaited. Some have a more open, ground-covering gait - a lot of Coral and Pegasus lines out here. but few have the quick, short gait preferred by the judging, and none of us jack our horses up to get the 'brio up" and get a faster performance. These are Pleasure horses in every definition of the word.

What has taken over the PFHA (and IPFA is no different, if not worse) show ring is the Fino horse. All the horses in all 3 divisions and BF all gait the same, move the same, have the same quickness, same training, same, same, same. A regular Paso Fino has no chance in the Pleasure Division, even Country Pleasure is often placed to the quickest gait instead of the nicest mannered, smoothest, or most consistent horse. It's all, ONLY about speed of footfall.

So why waste your time and money supporting an organization that caters to ONE type of horse? Essentially, the super-quick Colombian horse. It's taken over and dominated the show ring and pushed out everyone else, and the judges judge accordingly. Most are, after all, training this exact horse.

I have no use for PFHA, Nationals, Spectrum, IPFA, none of them. I'd rather show in Open shows, where judges read and FOLLOW the PFHA rule book....where Performance horses win Performance and Pleasure horses win Pleasure. Where it's not JUST 3 speeds/executions of Fino. It is not just the pleasure class, it is all of the classes. Many people are getting robbed when it comes to geting ribons. If the judge would make a very good explaination after placing or excusing it would better help, AND if Judges were held accountable and knew they would be removed from power,, they would think twice about make placement choices. You are not the only one that have left the scene, as this continues the membership will continue to flatline and the funds will do the same.

[Siggy]

Then get in to the depths of PFHA and start change. There are others that are working in other directions, you wont always get your way but you will be putting forth an effort.

Yes we show, no we dont need a trainer. Yes we show in open and A/O, yes we are involved with a region and work towards change. We chose the region that best fit our goals and made our vote count, we got Involved in voting, creating events that we want to be involved with, support the events and votes that we are for, vote against what we are not for. We try to have an input, what are you involved with?

[Serendipity]

If PFHA shows were judged according to the rule book, I'd still show. Most of us here have Pleasure horses, nice horses who are consistent, good manners, go down the trail, easy going. Some are quicker then others, some are lower gaited. Some have a more open, ground-covering gait - a lot of Coral and Pegasus lines out here. but few have the quick, short gait preferred by the judging, and none of us jack our horses up to get the 'brio up" and get a faster performance. These are Pleasure horses in every definition of the word.


i to would like to see pleasure be well more pleasure, i'd like to really see a diffeance in all the classes. but it sounds as if IPHF is the same only fino type horses,

oh and just for the record i e-mailed the president that Lori gave as an e-mail and asked quesions about showing -----------i've still not gotten an anwer back pasosx3 it may not just be PFHA that does not anwer.

i find it really odd that the majority of Paso Fino Owners are pleasure riders yet even w/ this awesome break away new group they refuse to offer the true pleasure class?

and another interesting thing is for all this complaining about the PHFA judges those are the same judges judging at IPHF and confepaso shows

oh and i did not say Santana's win was a fluke i said was the system fluked that allowed him there, a question. and why have none been since would they pass the pripista? could it be the last show in FL yes added the other classes but would not exclude one rule they find important for who know why

[Finoman]

My hands are not over my ears, I am just saying that those that want to work within PFHA now have the opportunity as the others that only what they want now have IPHF.
Your fair share finoman, so you want IPHF your way and PFHA your way? What about those that dont care to have any involvement with IPHF and want PFHA to be developed for them? Dont they get a fair share?

All I can say is, you have IPHF your way, why isnt that enough? Its not an IPHF/ PFHA battle. I seems you are not interested in promoting the breed, only your agenda.Yes please get the unhappy ones you dont want ot listen, to just go away, decrease you numbers. You have no idea. The strengths of any group is to grow in numbers. Many sanctioning bodies of many organizations have suffered when the number shrink a split up. Take what you see so sucsessful work build on it. fix the wrong things. Truth be told, and its going to hurt.The bleachers at IPHF were completely full and nowhere to stand. Can you say that about the nationals ? Marketing my freind, Marketing. Fair judging! and the fact that you are welcomed and apprreciated, and thanked for paticipating.So many people come to see your horse at the stall ,Activity,, you have to be there as so many want to know about this breed! But if you want ot show, and spend you hard earned money having some beat you in the class that didnt deserve it, then go right ahead, enjoy yourself, OH you might be freinds with the judges in your area, maybe they train your horse too! Well your in luck! There are good judges out there and there are bad ones too. The fact that a show is Televised and the world is watch will keep a judge honest as well as a big audience.

[Lori Perez]

Lori I asked 2 very direct questions
Do IPHF shows qualify participants for Mundial?
When was Confepaso created?

Yes, and I believe both of those questions were answered by other people.

[Finoman]

Siggy - not sure what you are referring to about the questions. But, I answered many of your questions, or referred you to somewhere else other than this forum. If that is not good enough, then sorry. I have stopped answering them because there is no way to every satisfy you and it is always an agrument.
Lori my advise to you is to get more aggresive! I like that you stand up for what is right! Sometimes you just just cant reach people, It seems you have to say things that PI$$ them off to get them to see the light. They should sit down and watch other classes other than their own as an outsider and they may see what we are talking about.:grayhorse:

[Kerry W]

Perhaps a tattoo on the forehead would finally be considered "sufficiently answered" for Siggy. I don't know how one can be so dead set against something that one doesn't have a clue about. Qualify for La Mundial? I've never heard of any show, in any country that offers points toward qualification for La Mundial. Maybe in some parallel universe, but not in this one.

[Lori Perez]

i to would like to see pleasure be well more pleasure, i'd like to really see a diffeance in all the classes. but it sounds as if IPHF is the same only fino type horses,

oh and just for the record i e-mailed the president that Lori gave as an e-mail and asked quesions about showing -----------i've still not gotten an anwer back pasosx3 it may not just be PFHA that does not anwer.
i find it really odd that the majority of Paso Fino Owners are pleasure riders yet even w/ this awesome break away new group they refuse to offer the true pleasure class?
and another interesting thing is for all this complaining about the PHFA judges those are the same judges judging at IPHF and confepaso shows

oh and i did not say Santana's win was a fluke i said was the system fluked that allowed him there, a question. and why have none been since would they pass the pripista? could it be the last show in FL yes added the other classes but would not exclude one rule they find important for who know why

1-How long ago did you Email her? I would give her sometime. I think that is only fair.
2-Not true. What do you mean "true pleasure class" Like I said before, there will be classes offered according to the area of the show. I.E. Miami may have more Fino or Performance and have Trote classes, but a show in N.C., or M.S. would have more pleasure horses. What is nice about IPHF they do offer flexibility to the members, the members get to have imput on the shows, because it is a show circuit.
3-No, not for the most part. You won't see any trainers judging, and they will try to represent each country.
4-Not sure what the question is.

Nicole - it is really not about PFHA vs. IPHF or any other organization. (like Jacky said, are also members of PFHA) I have been a member for over 25 years. The PFHA today is not what it was even 5 years ago, who are you going to blame for that? Can't blame IPHF for it.

[Lori Perez]

yes, PFHA has problems, most organizations do. Right now our biggest one is the push by a select group to change our organization from it's origin.

We had a person at the helm who wanted to please those people inspite of the majority not wanting the change and that person cost us a fortune to get rid of. Now we have to draw back on the very roots of our organization and take control of it again.

I believe my questions were not answered because 1) PFHA (PFOBA) was around before Confepaso and 2) no other USA organization can hold events where horses can be qualified for Mundial. I could be wrong but without answers from those organizations (actually one organization because they have merged) it is hard to tell.

So it IS a good thing that IPHF and ATTA are in existence, those people have a place to go and PFHA can get back to doing what it needs to do. We are not dictating anything to either group, they can hold what ever events, in what ever manner they want. Go there, go well but quit harping in PFHA to change when you are not even wanting to be there. You have a place to go, you say it is better, it is stronger and you like it better.
Then you should rejoice in what you have and quit being concerned about the thing that you dont want.
It sounds as if your organizations are taylor made for you. That should be enough.

Siggy you are just talking BS!!!! IF you think that is PFHA's biggest problem. AND, you don't have to qualify for Mundial! The last IPHF show was a pre-Mundial trial to prepare people for the Mundial. Who are THOSE people anyway that you keep referring to? We the members of PFHA are those people. We the people who are Paso Fino horse owners are those people. Oh and by the way that person you make mention of that is no longer at PFHA, why is it that since this person left, PFHA went to the toilet? Why don't you just go post on another thread. Thank you Kerry! It is exhausting.

[jackymac]

Then get in to the depths of PFHA and start change. There are others that are working in other directions, you wont always get your way but you will be putting forth an effort.

Yes we show, no we dont need a trainer. Yes we show in open and A/O, yes we are involved with a region and work towards change. We chose the region that best fit our goals and made our vote count, we got Involved in voting, creating events that we want to be involved with, support the events and votes that we are for, vote against what we are not for. We try to have an input, what are you involved with?

Read my prior posts and you will find out.

[jackymac]

Perhaps a tattoo on the forehead would finally be considered "sufficiently answered" for Siggy. I don't know how one can be so dead set against something that one doesn't have a clue about. Qualify for La Mundial? I've never heard of any show, in any country that offers points toward qualification for La Mundial. Maybe in some parallel universe, but not in this one.


Hey I got a tattoo last week, first one in my life :-) I had "Bolero" scripted on my ankle!!!! I love him...

[Kerry W]

When it gets "just right" post it at pasovoice...we'd love to see it! :v:

[jackymac]

Kerry, you got it! :D

[Lori Perez]

Sandy - I think you said "We don't need a trainer". As if there was something wrong with having a trainer. I am not sure why you mentioned this, but all I can say is if you want to compete at the National or Int'l level on a world class horse, and you don't spend all day riding or have the physical ability to handle a youngster, then you will most likely your going to need a trainer.

Even professional athletes need a coach or trainer! Most all sports do.

If you are able to break a youngster, keep it in training all on your own as an A/O, and win a Grand National Title, hey I give you props!

[Lori Perez]

Kerry, I think it WILL have to get off this forum soon before I lose my mind. Jacky, I am looking forward to seeing the website.

[Kerry W]

Kerry, I think it WILL have to get off this forum soon before I lose my mind. Jacky, I am looking forward to seeing the website.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/92946jajaja.gif

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

Perhaps a tattoo on the forehead would finally be considered "sufficiently answered" for Siggy. I don't know how one can be so dead set against something that one doesn't have a clue about. Qualify for La Mundial? I've never heard of any show, in any country that offers points toward qualification for La Mundial. Maybe in some parallel universe, but not in this one.

I was thinking the same thing. You don't have to qualify for Mundial, you just have to good enough to compete with the best of the best....or expect to get the gate quick.

As I recall, Joyero III entered at the very last minute at the 07 Mundial in Jacksonville after not competing anywhere all year.

Places like IPHF shows are for preparing your horse to compete at that level since a PFHA show does not compare.

I'm not saying both avenues are not needed, just that they are at different formats.

To quote someone else who used to post on this forum...when they attended the 07 Mundial....
"It looks like while everyone else has been preparing for the Olympics, we have been preparing for the Special Olympics."
A lot of our National Champions were excused left and right.

If you have only been showing PFHA shows all year, you will most likely not be prepared for a show like Mundial.



Just a little note: Reading this thread has been very entertaining since I personally know almost every one of the main posters...cept Siggy. Never met Siggy that I know of. But the rest of ya. lol You are all great people and I love ya dearly. You are all so passionate about this breed and that is a good thing.

And Jacky I am jealous you are getting to spend so much time w/Cheri. I have been dying for her to be well enough to visit me in Miami again. And she hasn't had time to take pics of my new mare yet. :p

[jackymac]

Kerry, I think it WILL have to get off this forum soon before I lose my mind. Jacky, I am looking forward to seeing the website.


Cheri showed me a template of my site and oh It is beautiful, like nothing you ever saw before...she is so talented..our URL will be www.wildflowerpasofino.com


I need a break too...I have a joke that I would like to put on here but it may be taken out of context and start something, so I will keep it to myself!!!

Going to play with my horses now anw will check back later tonight, kind of waiting to see what Cindy has to say lately :-)

Hey Finoman, where did you get that little icon horse troting? I dont have anything like that!

[pasosx3]

those people have a place to go and PFHA can get back to doing what it needs to do. We are not dictating anything to either group, ...but quit harping in PFHA to change when you are not even wanting to be there... and quit being concerned about the thing that you dont want.

PFHA is dictating, more or less, what the diagonals do in this country by keeping both Confepaso Delegate Seats and not surrendering one of the Seats to the organization (ATTA) in this country that wants to support, promote and represent the diagonal paso horses. As long as PFHA controls BOTH Confepaso Delegate Seats, I will continue to be vocal in pointing out what I perceive to be flaws within PFHA and I will continue to defend what I believe is in the best interest of ALL the Paso horse breeds in this country.

Siggy: How do you feel about PFHA keeping both Delegate Seats with Confepaso or keeping any Delegate Seats for that matter?

Others: Do you think PFHA will have Diagonal Classes at next year's Grand National Show?

[pasosx3]

and another interesting thing is for all this complaining about the PHFA judges those are the same judges judging at IPHF and confepaso shows

I don't know if that is entirely true or not (that they are all the same judges). I have never complained about the Judges. I have only complained about the Judging System and Judging Rules of PFHA. Remember, the Judging System with IPHF/Confepaso (International Style) is vastly different than PFHA's.

Serendipity: You have stated twice and I don't remember where on this long thread it was, but you have stated that "you wouldn't want to show in a class where you were the only horse in the class and get placed 6th" under the International-style judging system. I want to assure you that this would not happen. If the Judges cannot, in their professional assessment, place a competing horse first or second, they would not place the horse at all. It would be considered insulting to give the horse a 3, or 4 or 5 or 6th place ribbon. So, don't worry, you wouldn't be humiliated.

[jackymac]

I was thinking the same thing. You don't have to qualify for Mundial, you just have to good enough to compete with the best of the best....or expect to get the gate quick.

As I recall, Joyero III entered at the very last minute at the 07 Mundial in Jacksonville after not competing anywhere all year.

Places like IPHF shows are for preparing your horse to compete at that level since a PFHA show does not compare.

I'm not saying both avenues are not needed, just that they are at different formats.

To quote someone else who used to post on this forum...when they attended the 07 Mundial....
"It looks like while everyone else has been preparing for the Olympics, we have been preparing for the Special Olympics."
A lot of our National Champions were excused left and right.

If you have only been showing PFHA shows all year, you will most likely not be prepared for a show like Mundial.



Just a little note: Reading this thread has been very entertaining since I personally know almost every one of the main posters...cept Siggy. Never met Siggy that I know of. But the rest of ya. lol You are all great people and I love ya dearly. You are all so passionate about this breed and that is a good thing.

And Jacky I am jealous you are getting to spend so much time w/Cheri. I have been dying for her to be well enough to visit me in Miami again. And she hasn't had time to take pics of my new mare yet. :p

The Mundial 2007 was a great event, I have to say that Joyero III got the crowd to go crazy, I will never forget it!


hahahah! I am keeping her under my wing :D until she is fully recovered, she is not allowed to ride yet but I think by November 1st she should be fine. She took care of Tido today, gave him a bath and treats but it is very hard for her not to be able to ride, watch out Tido comes November you will be in for an all day ride!
I love her, Cheri has a great passion for the Paso Fino horses and Trote Y Galope and it shows in her pictures. I may come with her to Miami when she goes and visit you, last time I was there was at the IPHF show and I was having such a good time at the show I did not want to go anywhere off Tropical Park was too affraid I was going to miss something!! It was so much fun to be there...can you beleive I did not even make it to the mall or the beach!

[Lori Perez]

Amen:) Becky, That is what is has been all about for all these years.

[Lori Perez]

I was thinking the same thing. You don't have to qualify for Mundial, you just have to good enough to compete with the best of the best....or expect to get the gate quick.

As I recall, Joyero III entered at the very last minute at the 07 Mundial in Jacksonville after not competing anywhere all year.

Places like IPHF shows are for preparing your horse to compete at that level since a PFHA show does not compare.

I'm not saying both avenues are not needed, just that they are at different formats.

To quote someone else who used to post on this forum...when they attended the 07 Mundial....
"It looks like while everyone else has been preparing for the Olympics, we have been preparing for the Special Olympics."
A lot of our National Champions were excused left and right.

If you have only been showing PFHA shows all year, you will most likely not be prepared for a show like Mundial.



Just a little note: Reading this thread has been very entertaining since I personally know almost every one of the main posters...cept Siggy. Never met Siggy that I know of. But the rest of ya. lol You are all great people and I love ya dearly. You are all so passionate about this breed and that is a good thing.

And Jacky I am jealous you are getting to spend so much time w/Cheri. I have been dying for her to be well enough to visit me in Miami again. And she hasn't had time to take pics of my new mare yet. :p

Hey Lori -Great to hear from you. (I love the analogy you used - comment you heard from someone about the Mundial.) I really miss seeing you and the magazine. I HAVE TO GET my subscription renewed. I hear there is a special issue coming out?? Let me know if I can assist.

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

Your help would be greatly appreciated Lori. Ill email u soon.

[pnalley]

I need a break too...I have a joke that I would like to put on here but it may be taken out of context and start something, so I will keep it to myself!!!


You can PM it to me. I could use a laugh:rolleyes:

[Finoman]

yes the thread has calmed down now that the musical chair group cannot suggest positive thoughts on listening to the Paso Owners. Tail between the legs and finding safe areas to post and wave their flag and say Horay for me!!!

[CarolU]

Carol I agree with on most everything you said except for the paragraph above. The super quick, tight, short Fino horses were what the Americans were trying to achieve and Puerto Ricans love the tightly collected horse. In fact if you go to shows in Colombia or talk to breeders from Colombia...you would understand they are not as interested in collection and quickness of the footfall as we seem to be here. Don't blame it on the Colombian's!! They didn't start this trend:)



Lori,

I didn't say the Colombians did this...I just said the Colombian bred short-quick step horses are just about the only thing that wins in a PF horse show now. I personally love the low action of the PR horse...at least how they used to judge Fino. A much more pleasant site. I am not sure that the Colombian lines haven't taken over PR now also.

One of the differences is that in PR and Colombia, they only show Fino. In the U.S. there are 3 divisions and there USED TO BE a difference between Fino, Pleasure and Performance. Each had their own standard that was spelled out in the PFHA Rule book. Pleasure used to be for Pleasure horses. My beef really is only with the Pleasure Division, which really should now be called "Fino B" or similar. They certainly are not "pleasure" horses that win.

I have stayed out of the discussion on diagonals. I personally like diagonals, just don't feel they belong in a PFHA show or registry. I know how they do it in Colombia, and I honestly don't care how they do it there. We're not in Colombia, but in the U.S. where there are many gaited breeds to compete with. What I do know is that HERE it makes the statement that our horses are born naturally gaited null and void, and we are sending potential new buyers to other breeds who can and do make that claim. Since we are now saying we can't tell if a horse is gaited until it is 4-5 years old, they are going to go buy a Peruvian or Rocky...another breed, who is "naturally gaited." I think going down this path confuses new buyers and will result in sending them to other breeds.

I know you all are deeply involved in the show community of the Paso bred horses. As long as all you care about is selling each other the same line horses, then the path you are on is fine. I think once you get out of the SE and in the world where we compete with other gaited breeds, you see the problem with promoting diagonals to people looking for naturally gaited horses that don't require expensive trainers to gait.

[CarolU]

BTW - I stated this a few years ago on Charlie's board, but I still feel the same way. I'd love to see a TyG horse trained to do Dressage. I think if you showed this breed in Dressage, I think it would quickly become like the Lusitano, worth 10 times what they are now, and you couldn't breed them fast enough for the demand.

They are spectacular horses that are really wasted (IMO) trotting and galloping up and down a Fino board. They should be shown doing so much more. They are athletic horses and make large Warmbloods look like tanks.

I just would prefer that you didn't call them "Pasos"... :biggrin:

[Siggy]

I have no more suggestions for you. I (and similar minded people) will continue to work towards the goals we have within the organization that we have. You seem to only want change towards your way so there is no point in going over it time and time again.

All I can say is I hope that the group with the other organizations, that do not even recognize any of the other classes that PFHA does offer, does not gain control of PFHA. Thank goodness the person that drug PFHA down and ran cost a fortune to have and to get rid of is gone.

We will work towards change in our way from within the association, not from b*tching about it from the sidelines

[jackymac]

All I can say is I hope that the group with the other organizations, that do not even recognize any of the other classes that PFHA does offer, does not gain control of PFHA.

Is that what you are affraid of? that IPHF will take over!!! and what classess are you refering to that they may not recognized?

[Finoman]

BTW - I stated this a few years ago on Charlie's board, but I still feel the same way. I'd love to see a TyG horse trained to do Dressage. I think if you showed this breed in Dressage, I think it would quickly become like the Lusitano, worth 10 times what they are now, and you couldn't breed them fast enough for the demand.

They are spectacular horses that are really wasted (IMO) trotting and galloping up and down a Fino board. They should be shown doing so much more. They are athletic horses and make large Warmbloods look like tanks.

I just would prefer that you didn't call them "Pasos"... :biggrin:Ahhh yes, This is what the Columbians would expect from you. Why dont you go there a see it for yourself. Its a designed horse for the specific class. The TyG horse is going to gain along of popularity over the next few years and just wait and see, I know several people interested in this horse already. face the music,,, PLease.

[SandyMM]

yes the thread has calmed down now that the musical chair group cannot suggest positive thoughts on listening to the Paso Owners. Tail between the legs and finding safe areas to post and wave their flag and say Horay for me!!!You have quite a high opinion of your opinion......:rolleyes: