Help with horse becoming belligerent!

[Sharon Leboffe]

Hi everyone, would really appreciate some help. Canseco bucked, crow hopped and basically was belligerent on the trail today. I haven't been able to ride as much as usual because its been so cold so have spent more time grooming, short rides and feeding carrots. I ride at least twoXweek but have felt him slowly going down the slippery slope of avoiding the bit, getting strong, basically downright sassy. I am a decent rider with a good seat and try to have soft hands, but today was a whopper of bad behaviour. I thought maybe his teeth might be the problem but he is floated regularly and has no problem eating. Should I stop riding trail and spend time in the arena, lunging, then transitions? After his behaviour today I untacked and put him in his paddock and resisted his pitiful calling for carrots. Thanks for your help. Sharon

[Sharon Leboffe]

BTW, for background, this horse is 17 yrs old and I've had him for 8 yrs, we have ridden these trails together for 5 years with ATVs, deer, trucks, turkeys, hunters whatever. At his age I thought he would not revert to his old MO. He definately knows right from wrong. I know its always the rider at fault. Thanks. Sharon

[Yasmine05]

Do you normally lunge him for a little bit before you get on him?

And don't blame yourself - it's not always the rider. Horses have a mind of their own, and unfortunately they can start trying to out-think their human at any age. ;-)

[Terry Wallace]

Yes, it would be good to give him something different to do...
Mix it up a little. Personally, I don't longe horses before I get on them, I feel they need to be better trained than needing that. When you cut down on riding, it is natural for your horse to be more hesitant until he gets back into "the swing" of riding... Does he get grain? If so, might want to cut back on it if it is giving him "too much" energy that he is not using up....

[Brigitte]

What did you do when he was doing this? Did you punish him in some way?

[Trail Rider]

If this is new behavior after riding him 8 yrs. I would think there is a problem with the way he feels. Maybe a tack problem or pain of some type. If not that then I would think a leadership issue. Ground work usually helps leadership issues.

Bridgett might also have a point. If he is trying you and gets away with it without consequence then it will continue if it isn't a pain issue. But that goes back to leadership.

[CarolU]

I would double check tack first and you might have the vet or a chiropractor check him. He is getting up there in the years and may have arthritis or a bone spur, or a vertebre slightly out of wack. You might palpate and check his back after a ride and see if there are any sore spots. And the same for his mouth. It wasn't too awful long ago that Steph D posted here about her long time bit eating a hole in her horse's tongue, a rough edge on it tore him up pretty bad.

You might try a jaquima and a bareback pad in the round coral or small arena and see if you have the same problems.

BTW - I do lunge a horse before I ride normally. I feel it gets the saddle seated where it's most comfortable for the horse, and the horse's muscles warmed up a little before a ride. Also lets me know on the ground if I'll have any physical or attitude problems.

[halfmoonfino]

If this has started gradually, have you considered his weight as it relates to saddle fit? I've seen the same thing happen to a horse who started slowly losing weight, causing his saddle not to fit anymore. Same thing happens if your horse gains weight. The once perfectly-fitted saddle pinches or sits crooked. Just take a minute to evaluate his body score, and definitely double-check the saddle fit. Examining his teeth is a good idea too. For Pitty, I examine his mouth myself on a semi-regular basis. I can see a lot of what the vets see just by experience ad observation. Check for hooks or edges on the molars and the upper canines. Has your horse had his wolf teeth removed? If not, then it's pretty much mandatory for correct bit fit. You'll need to have that looked into as soon as you can.

On the other side is just plain bad manners. I know that Pitty (my Paso) is one of those wonderful horses with very little motivation for exercise. I try to ride him 3-5 times a week, but when my medical problems force me to take time off, he gets very sour about work. He'd be perfectly happy to live life as a pasture horse who gets loved and pampered 7 days a week - no riding. So after a set-back, it usually takes me a week or two to get back into the swing of things with him. That means doing some roundpen work, trying short rides in the arena, and trying to not get discouraged. Some horses just get that way, and it's our job to love them all the more for it and try to work through attitude problems. Kinda like a kid going back to school after summer break ;-)

Don't work yourself up about this. Take the necessary steps to making sure it's not physical, and then put the time into adjusting his attitude. Relationship building activities can help to a GREAT extent! Good luck!

[Sharon Leboffe]

Thanks everyone! I will take all observations to try to work this out. Today, I groomed and lunged him and boy was he feisty. There was a really cold wind blowing. Nothing out of hand though so when he settled we took a walk together around the arena and when he walked behind with respect and not bumping into me and looking around for left over hay or "hope springs eternal" grass! I then put him in his paddock and gave him carrots in his feed pail when I finished cleaning up, etc. He seemed to know I was not happy with his behaviour of yesterday. I will call the dentist and have his teeth checked (sure doesn't miss any food), but his back seems fine no sore spots. He is fed just over a hand full of "Lite" pellets and hay twice a day. I'm not happy with the hay and complained (almost got kicked out of the facility). They insist its good hay, but it looks like a lot of straw mixed in with weeds. They won't let us buy our own hay. He is certainly not starving, could actually lose some weight, can thrive on not much it seems. I kind of think it is a respect issue as his whole personality changed after the lunging and ground work. Think I have been spoiling him with too many carrots and hugs (always after the ride) When the WIND and COLD ceases a little this week I will go up and ride him in the arena and see how he acts. I will try the bareback in the ring and then try full tack. He has a Wintec Dressage Pro with cair panels and a mylar short port bit. Just don't like for him to throw tantrums like that in the woods. Dangerous. It upsets me because although he doesn't like to lead, but will with a lot of leg he has been a fantastic trail ride and has never let me down (until yesterday). Thanks again. I'll let you know how it goes. Sharon

[Sharon Leboffe]

Gotta believe it is a "leadership" issue. Spent the last two times lunging, walking, and today riding in the ring without mishap. A perfect gentleman, as long as I kept him at MY pace. It was windy and he wanted to grab his bit and take off, but as I said, we stayed at MY pace. Will work with him again tomorrow and the dentist is coming Tuesday. He will check him out and float him. I checked his back, jaw, smelled his breath (in case he had an abcess). Nothing. He did notice missing carrots and petting and that's why I think he decided to be a gentleman. Oh, they are sooo smart. We'll see if he stays the gentleman in the woods. Sharon

[Terry Wallace]

Yeah, ya know Sharon..it just did not sound like a tack issue to me...sounds like an "I'm bored so I'm gonna try and see if I can be the "leader" today".... I'd still give him something different to do, like your walking him..just to give him something different to think about..and you are SO right...they are SO SMART.... they are thinking all the time, and they do get bored and need a "fresh perspective"...just keep after him, give him something different to think about so he will come to understand that life does have changes from time to time... and there are different things to look forward to.

Such are the trials and tribulations of very smart, thinking horses who are ...shall we say..at the TOP of the food chain...


You already know...this "ain't no ordinary horsie"

[Sharon Leboffe]

Terry, you are so RIGHT! After lunging and working in the arena we went out for a trail ride today and he was ALMOST perfect, better and definately listening and wanting treats after the ride. He is a great horse and I love him, but he is a horse. As Carlos Toban said, "he's always thinking". I think what he's always thinking is food and/or treats. Still wonder at the really bad behaviour, but the dollar stops here and I admit that I let him get away from me just having fun I thought, but he took it as I'm the boss and it just escalated. I do believe in lunging for respect (Carlos Toban during a clinic) and Don Williams who trained him after he became out of control a few years ago told me. I will do it every time before I ride from now on. Ya know you ride out on the trail and think what a great horse, and then you get to cantering for fun and they think, hey, I like to canter and it gets faster and faster and then you're out of control. We are keeping them at a slow corto now, moving to largo, but not cantering for the time being. These horses really are fun, never a dull moment. Thanks to all on the board. You are all such a great help! Sharon

[Sharon Leboffe]

Well, the horse dentist came on Tuesday and guess which horse out of the all the horses at the barn did NOT need to be floated?!! What a player he is! We're continuing ground work and sticking to slow cortos! Boy, I feel like such a big sucker. Yes, they are too SMART for their own good. I just got lazy and he took advantage. I did suspect he was playing with me, but now I know and had to follow up and confess. Thanks again to all. :oops: Sharon

[Terry Wallace]

Ya know Sharon..your horse is exactly the kind of horse I like best...he's a thinker and a "stinker"...he will keep you on your toes, and I bet he will in time become a great partner to you...you just hang in there with him, with more riding he will come around, and I'll bet you won't have this little hurddle again.! :D He's testing you in an "S.A.T." type of way...he wants to make darn sure you are "worthy".... ;-)

Once you win over a horse like this...they become VERY loyal..and very trust-worthy...

[motorgypsy]

They will test you regularly of course but his behavior seems a bit extreme. Makes me wonder if anything else is going on. The reason I say this is because we go for months without riding a particular horse and get on without longeing and might have a tiny buck or two from a horse that hasn't been ridden for a year and I mean less bounce than a trot - but never anything that sounds as extreme as what he did. Is he in a herd and is there a hierarchy change going on?

We do give treats but only one for coming to us and the others for doing things we ask for like picking up the foot, lowering the head, backing and so on, our guys get plenty of grain for a paso fino, we feed grass hay or they are on pasture and our guys are extremely energetic which we like. Now we do ride mares primarily and I don't know if they are just better than the boys or not but I tend to think not because we ride our stallion maybe once a year and he is fantastic each time. He may balk but that's the extent of it and a little swat on the butt cures that.

I do think treats for not doing anything are a bad idea. One for coming to you is fine but after that they have to be earned. Treats without work do create muggers.

Keep us posted but trying you is very typical - just not to that extent.

We did ride our big bad alpha mare for the first time in a year the other day and she bucked a little and was tense and argued a bit but by the next day she was great. Mostly we just felt that she was tense and fearful being away from her herd after such a long time.

Maybe he just had a bad day!!???

[Terry Wallace]

I must say..there is nothing "extreme" about what he did.... I get one like that out of about every ten or so....about ten out of a hundred horses I've had for training... some kind of average like that, and breed was no issue...it didn't matter what breed.

[Sharon Leboffe]

Terry, you are so right, he is a stinker and a thinker. We have ridden together for 9 years and he has been a good partner. He needs to be reminded who is the boss and I have been working with him in the arena which has been good for both of us. We took a trail ride on Sunday and he was good, tried to get headstrong but calmed down. Kyle, you may be right, there was something going on on that trail ride that he acted up. We were in the Pine Barrens and saw someone digging beside a truck. We turned and the guy who was watching us all along followed. We kind of took off towards the barn, but circled back when we saw he went on. Anyway, I think that Canseco picked up on the anxiety and also became bitter that we circled back. P.S. We don't know what that guy was digging, but we know that whatever it was it wasn't alive anymore. One time Colette lost her cell phone on a ride and got a call from the Sheriff that it was found near a body left in the swamp. It didn't help that I had just read a book about a serial killer who left his bodies in the Pine Barrens. So it goes in the Pine Barrens. :shock: Sharon