Does Anyone Have Any Suggestions????

[pasolovr]

I have a 19 year old gelding that is an ex-show horse and easily excitable. I use him to trail ride and have owned him for about 7 years. Recently he has started to act colicy after riding. It doesn't happen every time he is ridden. We go on easy rides and walk most of the time, with a little gaiting once in awhile. This has happened three times so far. The first two times I hand walked him, etc. and he got better in a short while. The last time it was worse and I had to give him Banamine. Once that got in his system, he was fine.

He tends to always poop a lot during the rides and while being tacked up because he gets excited with other horses present.

I feed about 1 1/2 to 2 hours before we ride.

Has anyone experienced this? It seems maybe to be brought on by stress, not impaction.....Help!

[paintedhorizon]

What are his symptoms?

[Linda Y]

Does he get enough water?
Maybe electrolytes?
My mare that I used to ride would do this. She actually stressed out bad enough that she foundered.

[Siggy]

I would start him on probiotics. Sounds a bit like ulcers but not extreme, a good one is ration plus or probios paste and no concentrated feed before the ride, just roughage.

[motorgypsy]

Some senior feeds have probiotics in them already also. You might try adding some soaked alfalfa cubes to his diet unless he's fat. I also have a mare that has done this twice and I don't know what her problem is either other than she does tend to be fat and nervous. Let us know how he does and what you try.

[SandyMM]

Is it possible that he is tying up?

[motorgypsy]

it's interesting that you mentioned that Sandy because I wondered that about Kalua. I finished riding her one day and was taking her back to the paddock and she practically dropped under me. She's never had great endurance but I've always attributed it to her fattitude. But I did consider typing up in her case also. Just seems like it's pretty difficult to diagnose. Banamine had her up and fine in minutes also and she hasn't had a repeat but I'm always careful with her not to tire her too much. At the clinic I only rode her in one segment and then switched to Lula who can go all day.

do you have any personal experience with tying up?

[SandyMM]

We thought Pete had a couple of tying up 'events' - turned out he had an atrophied muscle deep in his hip from a previous leg injury.... We were told to work him through any gimpiness - and it did work.

However, tying up is much more serious and a horse should _not_ be 'worked through it' as it can be fatal....

Tying up article (http://www.horse-previews.com/597articles/morristyingupdisease.html)

[motorgypsy]

Very interesting. We feed high fat, high protein low carb grain and grass hay. Right now we're feeding Purina Ultium to the group Kalua is in and it's 10% fat and i think 12 % protein and beet pulp, soy, alfalfa based but they only get a scant 1/2 scoop since it's so high in calories.

She did get right up after the banamine shot and when she was separated from her buddies so we could watch her she ran the entire day in her paddock with no problems so more likely a belly ache or something other than typing up which sounds really serious.

Is he on sandy soil? If so you may want to be sure he has hay 24/7 and add oil and water to his grain and the soaked alfalfa to move that sand. I stopped giving psyllium for sand when I had two horses colic after I gave it. It works well on some but a study said it works a lot better with oil.

[Terry Wallace]

I wonder if he might have a lypoma. Is he at all overweight? A lypoma will cause problems with exercise sometimes. If it is wrapping his intestine and increasing pressure with riding or exercise..it will cause colic-like symptoms. Giving Banamine will relax the gut and relieve the pain.
Any bloodwork on this horse? Might want to get a work-up.

What color is his urine when he is colicy? Does he ever have dark urine?

[pasolovr]

What are his symptoms?

He will not graze and he keeps lying down.....the last time he kept wanting to roll. That's when I gave him the Banamine. There are no symptoms while you are riding him.

[pasolovr]

Does he get enough water?
Maybe electrolytes?
My mare that I used to ride would do this. She actually stressed out bad enough that she foundered.

He's one of those horses that will not drink unless he's in his stall. I was thinking I should put him on more electrolytes. I use them, but not consistently and that was one of the things that I thought could be the problem. Thanks

[pasolovr]

Some senior feeds have probiotics in them already also. You might try adding some soaked alfalfa cubes to his diet unless he's fat. I also have a mare that has done this twice and I don't know what her problem is either other than she does tend to be fat and nervous. Let us know how he does and what you try.

He is not fat, but he is nervous. The probiotics sound like a good idea, too! Thanks, Siggy, I will give them a try.

[pasolovr]

I wonder if he might have a lypoma. Is he at all overweight? A lypoma will cause problems with exercise sometimes. If it is wrapping his intestine and increasing pressure with riding or exercise..it will cause colic-like symptoms. Giving Banamine will relax the gut and relieve the pain.
Any bloodwork on this horse? Might want to get a work-up.

What color is his urine when he is colicy? Does he ever have dark urine?

No he's not overweight at all. I don't notice that his urine is dark. Actually, except for the last episode, he usualy got over the symptoms in a very short time and all I had to do was just walk him around for a bit, squirt water in his mouth and keep rinsing him.

[Hacienda Del Sol]

I'm kind of leaning towards an enterolith. That could explain things.

[paintedhorizon]

It does sound like he's not getting enough hydration then, based on everything you are saying. Can you try to teach him to drink outside of his stall?

[Leather]

If he doesn't drink a lot, maybe try this stuff?

Horse Quencher (http://www.horsequencher.com/home.asp)

[SandyMM]

We have a horse who 'forgets' to drink enough when the weather turns cold. He now has 3 buckets:


1 for just water - which he rarely touches
1 for his T/A cubes dropped into about 4 gallons of water - which he always drinks down to the very last drop before his next meal (2x/day)
a very large heavy-duty bucket hanging on the fence at 45 degree angle filled as full as it can get with water and one flake of hay stuffed in - half of that water is gone by the end of the day, too

This just about guarantees he gets 8-10 gallons a day. He counts on those cubes and won't start eating his grain until he's sure his cubes are in place.... :v:
================================================== ========
One more thought - it's expensive, but you might try 3-5 days of UlcerGard (http://www.ulcergard.com/)
There's an Rx strength and a non-Rx available that's about half the Rx strength. It might be worth a try to see if you notice an improvement - if it is ulcers, you should see a pretty quick improvement...

From the website:
http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/hdr_main_sub.gif
http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/bullet.gif Altered Eating Behavior http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/bullet.gif Recurrent Colic http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/bullet.gif Weight Loss http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/bullet.gif Diarrhea http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/bullet.gif Change in Attitude http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/bullet.gif Dull Coat http://www.ulcergard.com/pix/Phase2Redesign/bullet.gif Sub-optimal performance

[Terry Wallace]

I'm kind of leaning towards an enterolith. That could explain things.

Me too Jamie... lypoma or enterolith...as he only show the symptoms after he has been ridden and not all the time...which kind of eliminates the ulcer thought to me.
An enterolith could be moving back & forth and cause those symptoms. With a lypoma, its likely to get to a point where it gets increasingly worse, symptoms eventually are there with no riding brining it on.

A high percentage of horses DO have ulcers....that can be diagnosed with a scope.
The enterolith..if its near the bottom of the gut..might be diagnosable via ultrasound.
A lypoma is very hard to diagnose...you usually have to go inside to find that.

I think I'd spend my money on some diagnostic proceedures before I sprang for ulcerguard with no definitive diagnosis, as it could be money right down the drain so to speak... JMO

[SandyMM]

Enteroliths are what killed Antares... They found several the size of softballs... He died during surgery at UF.

Many horses develop enteroliths, but they are usually small and pass through. You may have seen what looked like a small round stone in a horse's stall? Might have been an enterolith. Apple cider vinegar (acidic) in the diet can help with smaller enteroliths which are often 'seeded' by a foreign object - sort of like a pearl, but with much different consequences.

Alfalfa hay is seen as an element in the diet which may increase the risk of enteroliths... I try to feed alfalfa/timothy mix to balance the mineral content.

Not drinking enough water can cause the minerals in the system to become more concentrated and cause problems...

[motorgypsy]

It only seems to be alfafa from certain areas though.

I would wet the hay, the grain and perhaps add some soaked beet pulp to the grain. It's a great way to get a horse hydrated as well as soaked aflafa or t/a cubes.

[pasolovr]

Thanks, everyone, for the helpful suggestions!

[lanierbabe]

Sorry but I don't understand the logic of feeding Ultium to a senior horse. Too much protein will result in dark urine and will stress the kidneys.

I use performance feeds like Ultium as a supplement for my competition horses that are in daily training....a little goes a very, very long way.... I add 1/4 to 1/2 cup to their regular grain serving. Not as a single source of grain.

good luck with your gelding.

[motorgypsy]

this is a bit off the thread topic but is important to address for everyone.

You're absolutely correct that they will excrete excess protein through the kidneys.

If I remember correctly Ultium is only 12% protein though. I usually feed Triple Crown Senior which is 14 % protein, 8% fat I think and this is a full feed designed for senior horses. And Ultium has less protein than TC senior. Most of the senior feeds have at least 12% fat. I don't feel like looking it up right now so correct me if I'm wrong about the protein and fat content but I feed Ultium for the fat, not protein. It's 10% fat. I feed less than a quart a day of any of these feeds unless I have a growing foal - she gets 2 quarts or an old lady who's skinny and she gets two quarts a day, not per feeding. I see no point in feeding twice as much cheap feed filled with molasses, corn and oats, all of which have a high glycemic index, to horses who are founder prone when I can actually save money with the more expensive low carb low sugar high calorie feeds fed in a much smaller quantity.

There are some super high calorie feeds like Neutrena Empower and Buckeye Ultimate finish that are meant to be fed by the cup for that super glossy coat and to put on a bit of weight. But Ultium was not designed for that purpose. It's a high calorie feed but one does not have to feed it in large amounts. Less than a quart a day of Ultium is less than two cups TOTAL grain twice a day. that's not a lot.

Our guys are on grass hay 24/7 so they don't need a lot of grain even though they are very active, never stalled and run around all the time. They're on daily wormer and paste several times a year so they don't have a parasite load and they don't need a lot of calories but the fat and protein and all the additives in these high quality feeds, even in a small quantity seems to make them feel good and they sure look good and they have great feet.( We do add MSM to eveyone's feed for hooves and all connective tissue health.)

Again this is not on topic and I apologize but it is very important to understand that it's not the % of fat and protein in a feed that matter. it's the total amount of fat and protein and carbs that you feed the horse that determine if it has adequate, inadequate or excess feed. We have two horses with a history of founder before we bought them and we have a couple of others that definitely are prone to fat and very likely would founder easily so we have to be very careful of sugar and carb load.

Let's say we have two feeds -
first is 14% protein, 10% fat and 4% carbs and sugars
second is 10% protein, 3% fat and 10% carbs and sugars

I feed 1/4 of a scoop twice a day or one quart per day of feed one
you feed one scoop twice a day or 4 quarts per day of feed two

this amounts to your feeding three times as much protein as I do, 1.2 times a much fat as I feed and ten times as much carbs and sugars as I am feeding. AND most of your feed is in the form of complex carbs and sugars which are linked to founder and other problems in our breed.

so you can see, it's not just the proportion of ingredients, it's how much total they are fed that determines the total intake.

[Leather]

it is very important to understand that it's not the % of fat and protein in a feed that matter. it's the total amount of fat and protein and carbs that you feed the horse that determine if it has adequate, inadequate or excess feed.

Exactly.

I always find it funny that people get so hung up over what's on the feed tag yet rarely bother to get their forage tested, as the forage accounts for the majority of the diet.

Sorry but I don't understand the logic of feeding Ultium to a senior horse. Too much protein will result in dark urine and will stress the kidneys.

AFAIK there is no evidence to suggest that high protein levels have any negative effects on the kidneys.


http://ohioline.osu.edu/b762/b762_8.html

High-protein rations have been reported to cause kidney damage in horses. This is an untrue old wives tale brought about because a horse on a high-protein ration urinated more, and the smell of the urine was stronger due to the excess urea being passed.

Also, there's a big difference between feeding something like alfalfa that typically has a high "crude protein" level (where most of the amino acids are excreted) and a product like Ultium that has been formulated to have the protein consist of more of the essential amino acids (which won't be excreted).

[pnalley]

For those of you that have horses that are reluctant to drink when away form their comfort zone,that Horse Quencher stuff really works for mine.

Ladda has NEVER allowed strange water to touch her lips but she will suck a bucket dry with HQ in it.

[motorgypsy]

Thanks Paula - great info

FYI - protein doesn't cause kidney damage BUT if a horse has kidney problems already, (perhaps from some type of illness,) which aren't that common in herbivores including horses by the way, you don't want to feed a lot of protein so you go to a higher fat supplement to keep weight on them and feed just enough protein to maintain the muscles.

[PNYGRL]

I am looking at feeding a 12% protein feed with 6% fat. I would prefer a feed with more fat as my horse could use a little more weight, but my local feed store does not carry any. Are there any problems with adding vegitable oil to the feed? I was thinking a couple tablespoons a day. They aren't real skinny, I just want to put weight on them as they are pastured and we are going into the winter months.

[Siggy]

buy rice bran and add to feed. Vegetable oil is not what you want, either canola or corn oil to gain weight but rice bran is better.

[Leather]

The source of oil you feed really doesn't matter. The more important thing is to find one that the horse will eat.

http://www.smartpakequine.com/Articles.aspx?ArticleName=isdietaryfatreallyhealth y

Black oil sunflower seeds are another option.

http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/black-oil-sunflower-seeds.html

[motorgypsy]

Seminole makes a couple of feeds that are 10 to 12 % fat including 12 12 and 10 10 and their senior is pretty high. Their Wellness line has three high fat feeds including the Wellness senior.

Purina Ultium is 10% fat

Triple Crown senior and I think Complete are high fat also.

You're probably going to save money by actually feeding one that is already high fat. Grocery store oils are costly unless you go to some place like Sam's club and get a 10 gallon container and then it may go rancid or they may not like it.

[ruuhzoo]

I happened to come across this and I have to say the symptoms point to an enterolith. Been there, done that, cost me a colic surgery, but Shade made a full recovery and is back in business better than before.