Are TyG horses "Paso Finos"??

[CarolU]

I was just reading the articles and pages on the Paso Fino, this month's featured breed on the "Going Gaited" web magazine website.

http://www.goinggaited.com/Index.html

I recommend everyone read and enjoy it.

However, when I was looking at the Editor's pick page, among all the Paso Fino stallions (I'm not sure why only stallions are picked), was this page on Bolero. First, know that I think Bolero is indeed a beautiful horse, but I have to wonder what he is doing on a "Gaited Horse" website as a "Paso Fino" stallion.

http://www.goinggaited.com/Centerfold-Bolero.html

Just MHO but I think we do our breed no favors by showcasing horses that trot instead of gait.

[Siggy]

Nope, not a paso fino but also not a 2 beat trotting breed like other trotting horses either.

Initially I believe the article was going to be all Paso breeds included Peruvian Paso (website last month listed upcoming breeds for this issue) but when they realize how large it would be and how different they decide to break it up. By then he was already in its story with photo and the other organization info.

[SandyMM]

Correcting the error is extremely simple. Bolero is indeed a handsome animal, but while he is a "Paso horse" he not a Paso Fino and that is the focus of the article... How many people think 'special trot' (or _any_ trot) when they think of 'gaited' horses...?

[dcancel]

What is a "Paso Horse". Trote y Galope, Trocha and Paso Fino are modalities within a breed, the Caballo Criollo Colombiano...... lets call it what it is....Please...that is why there is so much confusion here in the states for newbies.....

Paso Fino is Paso Fino, I don't see it anywhere where it says Paso Trote y Galope or Paso Trocha.....

I don't want to be rude but we get no where with mislabeling animals.... Bolero is a beautiful example of a CCC of the TyG modality and should be recognized as such...JMHO

[Siggy]

And it was BS like this (week or more ago) that made them rethink covering the Paso horses at all.
Keep it up people, no wonder this breed is suffering in the general public. Very unpleasant bickering on every subject as related to the breed.

[Palomino_Lover]

In a word.. NO. This is not a Paso Fino. The PFHA allowing the registration of Trocha as Paso Fino is yet another bad decision that will further destroy the breed.

I am in favor of allowing registrations and points in PFHA but only if the registration clears states that this is a Trocha horse and the points can not cross over.

[Helene]

When the gaits of the Paso Finos were explained-- it said corto, largo, fino...no trote-y-galope or trocha were mentioned or elaborated on.
Also, the mane and tail are to be "luxurious and natural", without alteration -- nowhere was is mentioned "roached".

I really like the trote-y-galope horses (and I think they are beautiful, like the Friesians and Arabians), but to me -- they are distinctly different from the Paso Finos, that I wanted to own, that I thought were Paso Finos.

Didn't the Rockies have some Paso Finos in their ancestry, but they are not considered Paso Finos. Arabians have thouroughbred in their blood but aren't considered throughbred.

Just because they came from the same country, does not make it the same breed.
Holsteiners, Trakehners (sp?), Hanoveranians, Oldenburgers, etc...all come from Europe, but they are all are different breeds.
This is not trying to take anything away from the Tote-y-galope horses (as I said -- they are GORGEOUS).

This is not to criticize the article. I think it is beautiful and well done and shows the Paso Finos very nicely. It might confuse people not familiar with the Paso Fino breed. I think the Trote-y-galope horses deserve an article just about them, though -- to showcase them.

[icehorse]

SandyMM - to answer your question (although it may have been a rhetorical one) about people thinking about any trot in a gaited breed.

Icelandics are required to show trot. They must also show walk, canter & gallop, along with slow & fast tolt, and pace for those horses that are five gaited. Each gait must be executed properly & points are detracted if any of the gaits are sloppy or off from the appropriate beat.

Helene, a small gentle correction if I may. It is Thoroughbreds that descended from & have Arabian blood in them, not the other way around. Arabians were used to improve just about every known breed of light horse. There of course was some muddying of the gene pool in the Arabian breed here in the States in the not too distant past, but that is a whole 'nother story.

I find the topic of the TyG horses as compared to the "paso fino" horses fascinating. Is it known if the DNA of each has been compared to see how closely related or not those horses may be? I'm talking the two groups in entirety, not one or two specific individuals.

Thanks.

[SandyMM]

SandyMM - to answer your question (although it may have been a rhetorical one) about people thinking about any trot in a gaited breed.It was pretty much rhetorical, however, those who have and/or know about the gaited breeds that trot know that they can do that, but in general gaited breeds are best known for their unique gaits that set them apart from strictly trotting breeds.

I find the topic of the TyG horses as compared to the "paso fino" horses fascinating. Is it known if the DNA of each has been compared to see how closely related or not those horses may be? I'm talking the two groups in entirety, not one or two specific individuals.It seems to me that I read - quite a while ago - that while the Peruvian Paso had been found to be genetically different enough from the other Pasos (citing the barrier of the Andes Mountains as a deterrent to cross-breeding) that it qualified - scientifically - to be considered a distinct and separate breed. Not so with the CCC and PPRPFs - much to the chagrin of those who see them as distinct entities....

[SandyMM]

What is a "Paso Horse". Trote y Galope, Trocha and Paso Fino are modalities within a breed, the Caballo Criollo ColombianoI bite my tongue.....;) in deference to Paula.....:v:

On the other hand, the question of CCC modalities, PPRPF, and the Paso Fino gait would make a great Venn Diagram...

[GGOnlineMag]

Hi y'all. Just a quick note about Bolero. When we originally planned the Paso edition, it was to encompass the Paso breeds and all it's modalities. We quickly realized that was too broad of a spectrum to cover in one edition, so scaled it back just for the Paso Fino. The rest will be covered at some time in the future. At that point though, Bolero was already promised a spot, and I like to keep my promises. Although I am not an expert on the subject, I have been told that the gaits of the Trote y galope horse, although technically a "trot", can be a smooth gait. As a matter of fact, when I was discussing this with the photographer who took Bolero's photos, she was watching a TyG horse being worked in an arena and was commenting on how smooth he was.

I won't apologize for falling in love with Bolero and awarding him a spot. He is exquisite. However, when we research for the upcoming breeds, we'll try to stick more to the standards.

By the way- stallions are featured because quality photographs of stallions are the most readily available. If mares or geldings were the most advertised and photographed, they'd be in there. Stallions are simply the most marketed gender, so it's easiest to find great photos of them.

Next month is the American Saddlebred. I invite you all back to check them out. I hope you enjoy their beauty as much as I am.

Tracey Buckalew, co-editor
Going Gaited Online Magazine
www.goinggaited.com

[SandyMM]

Your online magazine is much appreciated!

[Helene]

Oops, "icehorse", you are correct. The thouroughbred has Arabian in its blood, not the other way around....Thanks, I really need to proof-read my stuff. But it's still the same -- they are horses, but different breeds --a thouroughbred is not considered an Arabian, even though they have some common ancestors.

If the article was about the "Paso horse", not the Paso Fino -- then, trocha and trote-y-galope should be explained, as well as the roached mane...

I think most of us own Paso Finos for their unique gaits -- corto, largo, fino --not because it can trot and canter, too. It's already confusing enough to explain those unique gaits to someone new to the Paso Fino.

I've mentioned the trote-y-galope horses to a few new fellow Paso owners and they look confused, too.

[dcancel]

When I here "Paso", I only think of PasoFino wether from Puerto Rico or the Colombian Modality....has this changed.....

Thanks for the new site, very nice online magazine..looking forward to the next edition and learning about the different gaited breeds....

Denisse

[CarolU]

I think it would help to have some explanation of what TyG horses are. While it mentions that Bolero is a TyG champion, it doesn't explain what TyG horses are or that they are not Paso Finos, or why he is included with Paso Finos on the page.

[GGOnlineMag]

Carol, you will find that if you click on the link provided within the text describing Bolero, that it links you to the TyG association home page. That link was provided for those readers like yourself who wish to learn more about the TyG history and gait.

As always, thanks for visiting the magazine.

Tracey

[Heart of Gold]

Without typing the entire breed standard...
Paso Fino - translates to "Fine Step" = natural 4 beat isochronal (NOT diagonal) footfall

If it's diagonal, it's not Paso Fino.

[PasoPal]

When the gaits of the Paso Finos were explained-- it said corto, largo, fino...no trote-y-galope or trocha were mentioned or elaborated on.
Also, the mane and tail are to be "luxurious and natural", without alteration -- nowhere was is mentioned "roached".

I really like the trote-y-galope horses (and I think they are beautiful, like the Friesians and Arabians), but to me -- they are distinctly different from the Paso Finos, that I wanted to own, that I thought were Paso Finos.

Didn't the Rockies have some Paso Finos in their ancestry, but they are not considered Paso Finos. Arabians have thouroughbred in their blood but aren't considered throughbred.

Just because they came from the same country, does not make it the same breed.
Holsteiners, Trakehners (sp?), Hanoveranians, Oldenburgers, etc...all come from Europe, but they are all are different breeds.
This is not trying to take anything away from the Tote-y-galope horses (as I said -- they are GORGEOUS).

This is not to criticize the article. I think it is beautiful and well done and shows the Paso Finos very nicely. It might confuse people not familiar with the Paso Fino breed. I think the Trote-y-galope horses deserve an article just about them, though -- to showcase them.



I agree Helene, except for the arabian part. The rest I am in complete agreement. :)

[PasoPal]

Carol, you will find that if you click on the link provided within the text describing Bolero, that it links you to the TyG association home page. That link was provided for those readers like yourself who wish to learn more about the TyG history and gait.

As always, thanks for visiting the magazine.

Tracey

I don't agree here because it's like writing an article about quarter horses and throwing in a page on a thoroughbred. Doesn't make sense but both may have some same ancestry and both are a trotting breed. Hmmm? Would the general public be confused on this one? I think so, JMO. :confused:
;)

[Siggy]

This is not to criticize the article. I think it is beautiful and well done and shows the Paso Finos very nicely. It might confuse people not familiar with the Paso Fino breed. I

And you dont think that trocha horses placing in PFHA classes, and trocha breeding being in our gene pool isnt already confusing?
How about the fact that many "breeders" would not know which of their own horses carry trocha blood in their back ground and which of their own stock shows a lack of quality gait?

Please, this article atleast created a link for Bolero and indicated he was with ATTA.

I think they did great job promoting the horses and to constantly bring up the same thing over and over and over, when they came her and explained how it happened is just sour grape

[Siggy]

I don't agree here because it's like writing an article about quarter horses and throwing in a page on a thoroughbred. Doesn't make sense but both may have some same ancestry and both are a trotting breed. Hmmm? Would the general public be confused on this one? I think so, JMO. :confused:
;)

You do KNOW that the AQHA allows thoroughbred blood right, and that the Thoroughbred had a huge influence on the QH right?

[Terry Wallace]

And you dont think that trocha horses placing in PFHA classes, and trocha breeding being in our gene pool isnt already confusing?
How about the fact that many "breeders" would not know which of their own horses carry trocha blood in their back ground and which of their own stock shows a lack of quality gait?

Hehehehe and not to mention that Bolero goes back to Don Danilo!

Siggy your post "tickles me"...wanna know how many "breeders" don't know they have trocha blood in their horses, don't know good gait from bad......can't tell trocha from gait..TOO MANY TO LIST!!!!!:biggrin:

[Terry Wallace]

You do KNOW that the AQHA allows thoroughbred blood right, and that the Thoroughbred had a huge influence on the QH right?

LOL!!! Some folks think Three Bars was a QUARTER HORSE!!!! Hehehehehehe!!!!

Love those APPENDIX horses...had a bunch of 'em once!:biggrin:
DANGIT Siggy...coffee on my keyboard now!

[PasoPal]

You do KNOW that the AQHA allows thoroughbred blood right, and that the Thoroughbred had a huge influence on the QH right?

You're not getting the point here. Oh well, I know there are others who are better understanding. :rolleyes:

[Siggy]

......can't tell trocha from gait..
You must mean cant tell trocha from paso fino gait, right Terry, because trocha (properly performed) is a non-suspension gait (not a two beat trot and not an ill-timed Paso Fino gait)

Please enligten me pasopal, I had Thoroughbreds for over 30 years, know quite a bit about Quarter Horses and simply can not understand how your comment about those two breed relate at all.

Wonder if they would let a list of horses that have pura trocha blood that are registered in PFHA (or ones that produced pura trocha in other association) stand here:)

[Terry Wallace]

Gee I dunno...would the point be that they are BLOOD RELATED? That they came from much of the same gene pool? That to this day... we still get trocha gait in some lines of Paso Fino horses? particularly COLOMBIAN Paso Finos?

NOT speaking for Siggy....but I think it is.....JMO!:biggrin:

Ever read what gait Meridian Meadows was seeking to import and why?

You must mean cant tell trocha from paso fino gait, right Terry RIGHT...(the "words" Paso Fino were a given with me)...Paso Fino GAIT.

Wonder if they would let a list of horses that have pura trocha blood that are registered in PFHA (or ones that produced pura trocha in other association) stand here Me TOO....I could supply some names for that list...yep Trochador champions registered as Paso Finos.

[SandyMM]

Having worked with running quarterhorses at the track for 6-7 seasons, I have to say I did notice a difference between the 'old style' (bulldog) quarterhorses that were so good at the shorter distances vs the appendix horses that were better - in general - over distances up to 870 yards. Personally, I preferred the 'old style' bulldogs to the (often) flightier appendix horses...

Every breed was created from a variety of bloodstock and some infusion of outside blood continues today in some breeds. However, there is an interesting read in the article on pasopedigree concerning the CCC Pasos and how they all did a form of the trocha gait early on (http://www.pasopedigree.com/articles/why-paso-finos-trocha/)... Maybe the fact that _any_ Colombian-bred Pasos still do the Paso Fino gait is the miracle of it all... It would also explain why many trainers (of some Col. bloodlines) aren't concerned when their horses can't do the 'Paso Fino' gait initially under saddle...

All this is the reason I prefer a heavy amount of PR blood mixed with a known Paso Fino gait producing Col. bloodline...

[CarolU]

Other gaited breeds have crosses in them too. TWHs were crossed with pacers to get more speed, hence many TWH's pace. BUT, they don't advertise Narragansett Pacers on the same page they advertise TWHs. THAT is my problem. I know that TyGs are not Paso Finos...but 99% of the people who aren't in our breed who read that page now believe they are.

And if we were going to include other Colombian "modalities" why aren't the PR Andadura horses included? That's at least a 4-beat gait.

This is the problem with including the COL modalities with the breed registry. It opens the door to tons of confusion. I am sure there are many people now who believe that Paso Finos are supposed to trot and gallop.

Yes, I realize it was a slip. I blame the decision to include the Colombian modalities in PFHA more then I blame the magazine. ANYONE would be confused.

[Terry Wallace]

Oh I mostly agree with you Carol.
in a PERFECT world...you'd have nothing but Paso Fino gait on a registered Paso Fino...but its not a "perfect world" and the more one studies this breed...the more you will find out just how "imperfect" the breeding has been!

Lets not forget the top ten Peruvian stallion we had, or how about the Standardbred crosses done in the DR to "upsize" the horse, you have already mentioned the TWH factor, and who knows what all else...

Just be thankful that we have DNA proofing...oh wait...thats only as good as the "already accepted" other modalities...already "bred in"...
I guess all we can do is await the genome graphing that will show what all breeds are in a horse by a drop of blood!

But then...maybe some won't wanna know!
:biggrin:

I'm all FOR hybrid vigor...BUT...only if it is used to go in ONE direction...not three or four different directions/modalities! We should be well past the "hybrid vigor" stage....key words...*should be*...JMO

Getting back to your original question: Are TyG horses "Paso Finos"??.... I'd have to answer that by saying this...... "depends"...depends on the breeding. JMO

[motorgypsy]

As far as I know all the light breed horses are very closely related. It's only been in the last century or two that certain characteristics from color to conformation to specialized gait has been bred for and pretty much set within a group of horses. So let's just breed for good isochronal gait in the paso fino, eliminate the ones who don't throw good gait and forget about the fact that there are a number of breeds in the background because today people don't interbreed paso finos and diagonals. there's no point. And for those of you who go to the shows the great majority of the paso finos in shows have a gait like a machine and can go for hours. It's amazing. I'm far more worries about our horses becoming too homogeneous than I am about their being a few trocha horses and Peruvians 15 generations back.

For those of you who still don't know what the trocha gait looks like - go to youtube and put in trocha horse or trochador and watch the video. It truly looks like a trot but if you listen you will hear a short sliding sound rather than a crisp single sound like a hammer makes when it hits. this because the diagonal feet don't hit at exactly the same time. The trocha gait is so close to a trot it's almost impossible for the unitiated to tell the different. Uneven diagonal paso fio gait is just poor paso fino gait, NOT trocha gait. What makes the trocha gait special is the support - one set of diagonals is put on the ground before the other is lifted so there is no loft or impact. It's also very easy on the horse's legs to do this gait just as it is easy on them to do the paso fino as compared to a floating trot unless they are a foot slammer.

No the T&G stallion should not have been included unless the article was labled Colombian native horses, not paso finos. It's like putting a picture of cute guy in the middle of the contestants for a Miss America Pageant. He might be cute but he doesn't belong. But then again if I owned an online magazine and had article on Miss America contestants and wanted to put a picture of a cute guy in the middle of the article - I COULD. It's MY website. So too bad. :biggrin:

[Helene]

LOVE the analogy of the cute guy in a pageant, "Motorgypsies". That's how I see it, too. There's too much of a difference in the "modalities". I thought we have been trying to breed OUT the trocha (and trot) gait from the Paso Finos?
If one would not breed a trote-y-galope horse to a 4 beat gaited Paso Fino and vice versa, doesn't that show that those two strains of Paso type horses are completely different? Wouldn't we going "backwards" with our breeding programs if we did start to do so?
So much to learn!

Oh-- and nothing against the article. It was well written and gorgeous pictures.

[motorgypsy]

:biggrin:Helene I don't know of anyone who has any desire to breed the diagonals to paso finos or the reverse. The diagonals are just very scarce in the US. the US is a HUGE market. In Colombia there are many many diagonals and they apparently are as popular as the paso fino Colombiano. By allowing them to show in PFHA shows they will get tremendous exposure. they are beautiful, spectacular and different so the demand for them should increase greatly because of this exposure. THIS is the reason for wanting them in PFHA shows.

The other issue lies in a voting seat in confepaso which ATTA thinks they deserve and PFHA doesn't. That's a whole different issue.

So unless a person is really ignorant it's highly unlikely that trocha and T&G's will be bred to paso finos simply because the offspring won't be marketable.

Now there are paso finos lines that tend to be diagonal but believe me - they are no where close to trocha or T&G. There are also paso fino lines that tend to be lateral. Contrary to the description of the paso fino gait in a lot of sites, it is NOT a lateral gait either. it is in between the two - perfectly "square", between trot and pace.

But don't think trocha and T&G are not smooth. they are very smooth. They are just very diagonal and different and their breeders want them to stay that way.

The Puerto rican andadura horse does do a lateral gait by the way and it is a racing gait. Again go to youtube and look at some of them. So my question is WHY aren't people whining about the Naragansett pacer and andadura horse blood in our paso finos. It's there. Horrors our breed really is contaminated. A pacey paso fino gait is just as "bad" as a diagonal paso fino gait. they are both incorrect. So let's just breed for the correct gait and stop worrying about who's way back in ancestry.

I really don't too upset because Kyle is related to Benedict Arnold and he certainly doesn't bow down because I'm related to King Robert Bruce. But it is good to know what lines are pacey or trotty so you don't breed them together and get bad gait in the offspring. Blood does matter but if you have great gait back four generations I really wouldn't worry about that Don Danilo (he was great at paso fino anyway and went "out of competition" in paso fino or whatever it is they have when they're too good to compete any more) or some other trocha horse waaaay back there. Mayber it was a bad trocha horse.:)

[CarolU]

Every gaited breed has horses in it who don't gait or don't gait without conditioning and work.

What they don't do is advertise this.

[Siggy]

For those that think that the Colombian modalities have been kept seperate, you really need to go review pedigree and magazine from 5 or 10 year ago.
This may be a practice now, in that country but the statement they make here is one to market the breed.
I dont know how anyone can believe what they tell us, since they have come forward (many years after) and tell us that the original horses that they allow to come over were the rejects. Now they want us to believe the next marketing ploy that the diagonals are pure and have been bred as such for very long time.

Dont listen to the selling strategy, do the research. I have seen many horse advertise here as Paso Fino, but when seeing in old magazines that the horse was young and in trocha or trote and parents competing in other division.

PFHA now say that 3 generation of horse being registered PFHA must not show any other modality on the parentage. This was not true some years ago. Also there is no determining fact that further back was pura trocha or trote. So breeding together 2 horses with 4th generation diagonal may bring it back up closer and more dominant.

pura trocha is a gait of it's own and is a CORRECT gait, it is not the same as a badly gaited trotty Paso Fino. I do not know why some can not understand that is is not a show of the quality of Paso Fino gait. A trotty Paso Fino is trotty not a trocha horse.
BUT PFHA is an association for the PASO FINO (horse and gait by description) so the diagonals should not be allow in PFHA.
Does not mean they should not be promoted by their own association or that they do not have a place in the USA. It is important that they are recognized as their own specific gait.

[Terry Wallace]

Peruvians 15 generations back.


15 generations back..uh uh...I don't think so! Try 3 to 5.
I'll pm you some. Plenty of mares had foals well into their late teens ya know...

Yes...we try to breed for "isochronal gait"...BTW..I've seen FEW Paso Finos that actually have "isochroal gait"...nor is "Isochronal gait" a description of this breed.....

We can try all we want but the facts are that we have MUCH trocha blood up much closer than the 15 gens you imply...15 gens back don't mean "jack".

Until and IF we can breed that out...we will see trocha tendencies particularily in Some lines of Colombian bred Paso Finos. You can't just "make it go away"...especially when we have people breeding Pasos that do not know the difference. JMO
In order to breed it "out"..if that is even possible...people would need to be better educated on what good gait is!
Our Assoc doesn't help much in that respect. JMO

Cabesa de Borrascoso was a top ten sire in 1979..he was still around after that..and not the only Peruvian either.
The Colombian trocha producers have been around forever and those bloodlines are also closer than 15 gens out...try 4-6 gens.

To say the Peruvian and Colombian trocha producing lines are 15 gens out...is not good info...that why we still see so much of it TODAY...JMO

[SandyMM]

The Colombian trocha producers have been around forever and those bloodlines are also closer than 15 gens out...try 4-6 gens.Not even.... I can cite one example that is a mere 2-3 generations out - and that's just the first one that pops into mind.... All Mahoma and Hilachas offspring should be carefully scrutinized, as well as the offspring of the (in the early 80s) National Fino Champion who - I am told - was intentionally entered (and won) to prove that US judges couldn't tell the difference between paso fino and trocha gait... The horse was supposedly imported from Colombia and was a known trocha-gaited horse.

(Having said Mahoma and Hilachas (known trocha producers) offspring should be scrutinized, it _doesn't_ mean all the offspring, grands, etc. are/were trocha - any more than _all_ of Don Danilo's offspring, grands, etc. were trocha. Pete is a grand of Hilachas and is one of the 3 smoothest and most accurately gaited Pasos I have ever ridden - but - we were told his _dam_ was the exceptionally smooth-gaited parent.)

Unless and until members make the effort to learn to identify gait by sight and sound (and stop excusing poor gait because the horse with 6 months training hasn't 'come in to its gait' yet), there's a pretty good possibility that a lot of 'off' gait will be overlooked and poorly gaited horses will continue to be bred...

[Kerry W]

.,,,,

[SandyMM]

Interesting article on Don Danilo (http://www.pasopedigree.com/articles/don-danilo/) on the website pasopedigree.com. The following info is included in the article:
Don Danilo
(Rey Cometa x La Danesa)
Date of Birth: February 20, 1954
Place of Birth: Bolivar, Department of Antioquia
Gait: Trote, Trocha, Galope and Paso Fino
Color: Palomino
Breeder: Don Oscar Veléz
Colombian Registry Number: FC9
and
Don Danilo is the only horse that has been known for his ability to perform the four Colombian gaits: Trote, Trocha, Galope and Paso Fino; he was always already to perform the gait that his trainer gave orders to execute.
As to Dave Jones recognizing gait - that's not a given... he himself tells a story about riding Hilachas in - what he thought was - gait, only to be told by Colin Phipps that the horse was trotting or in trocha (I forget which - it's in one of his articles...)

[Kerry W]

......

[SandyMM]

You can spin it any way you want, Sandy. The fact is, he was declared Fuera de Concurso in Trocha y Galope...not fino.Where in the world did you read that I thought Don Danilo _competed_ in fino? Or was even _exceptionally_ talented in the fino gait? I don't know that and have never checked to see whether he did or didn't, was or wasn't... I do know that he was considered an exceptional animal with tremendous athleticism and, likely, a disposition that made him receptive to learning whatever task was put to him.

All I have ever heard is that he was capable of performing all of the gaits. The fact that his dam was Paso Fino gaited just means that it was possible for him to have picked up some of the genetics for that gait and could have passed them on - possibly as a recessive trait - as evidenced by the fact that the vast majority of his offspring were supposedly diagonally gaited horses, but those offspring produced _both_ diagonal and Paso Fino gait...

[Serendipity]

Other than that comment was off color and meant to ruffle feathers, it has little bearing really.

Our horse’s pasts are just that “past” and though they do give us insight for direction and thoughts to consider like,” what is and is not proponent?” It also has to be looked at as a then vs now deal. When the paso came over to us some will say we were lied to and only sent poor quality animals. Right or wrong that is what was said.

So where do we go from here? We as breeder and promoters should only advertise and display Paso Finos that do the paso fino gait. This is why I say it is bad for the breed to "save them all" because even the ones being rescued have a chance at being bred. (unless they are a gelding)

Too many people cross horses just because they have a whole boy horse and a girl horse, with no direction for that offspring. And those that do not Register their horses but still sell them as pure bred do a disservice to the breed because they can “sneak” anything in and still call it a paso with no one the wiser and no proof.

so to cure this it seems only easy(though I know it is not) to only breed the ones that gait correctly to the ones that gait correctly. And to not promote the ones that do not. This is where it needs to be ruthless or the whole breed goes to he// in a hand basket

1) breed only what gaits correctly
2) if it won’t gait for you (for any reason, if your to inexperienced to know gait or feeling it your not ready to breed)
3) stop making executes that it has not “came in to its gait”, many babies gait a few hours old
4) these are suppose to be naturally gaited if a trainer is need to bring it “in to Gait” this is not a horse that should be bred if its already have trouble moving its own feet
5) these are suppose to be smooth horses, riders catching air between butts and saddle in classes or on trail rides are on horses that should not be bred
6) if confo flaws the gait don’t breed it
7) if people who know pasos cant tell your horse is a paso then maybe it should not be bred
8) trail riders DO care what gait their horse is in, selling someone a trocha gaited horse and passing it off as a paso fino gaited horse is not helping, that horse might be bred
9) pushing poor gaited and poor confo horses is bad for the breed no matter where they come from breeder, back yard breeders, importees ,freebies, rescues, trainers ect.
10) if only a trainer can get it to go right then it is not a horse that should be bred
11) horses that can not maintain gait (that are older than 5 and have already been under saddle for 2 yrs) and that are hopping and skipping should not be bred

its easy to pick a lot of these statements apart but they’re just excuses, if you want to breed quality animals you have to begin w/ quality and that does not always include looking in the past, there are flaws in every bloodline. But if it becomes strict for the purpose of gaining a more correct horse is that not the goal?

When I breed I know what I expect and sometimes it takes me yrs to pick a stallion for my mare but I know what I want the end result to be and so far have gotten in most of the time (except color L still looking to produce a pinto foal, maybe next yr), our 2008 foals are exceptional one has been unavailable for purchase from the moment she stood and gaited to us, the other I stall on, whether to sell or not, because I’m not a fan of colts but he is an exceptional horse with the most beautiful gait. I cannot wait to see both of them under saddle

But here is real question in essence we are saying breeding the Paso Finos is a bit of a crapshoot are the trocha and trote breeder breeding more true? Do they always get what they are going for? Diagonal gait or do those horse too slip more lateral at times and more trot at others? Curious

[SandyMM]

why argue with someone who has so much of his bloodline in their horses, and has horses/breedings for sale? They'll spin it 6 ways to Sunday, and it will sound really nice, but it doesn't change the facts one bit. One reason I suspect, that his name is left off the pedigrees of those who push those horses, and never tell anyone he's in there.Y'know, you've made an awful lot of assumptions there..

Let's start with what I actually said/implied... There are some horses in PFHA registered as Paso Finos who were most likely trocha gaited and produced trocha-type tendencies/gait in a number of their offspring - not all - when Paso Fino gait was assumed/expected (usually by those who did not yet know of or understand Colombian modalities). Another example might be Don Danilo - often considered the father of the modern trocha show gait. It might be assumed that he only produced diagonal gait and so on down through his grands when they were bred. This is obviously not the case (his dam was Paso Fino gaited according to every account I have read) as Paso Fino gaited horses are known to be among the Don Danilo grand offspring and possibly/probably some direct offspring.

That's simply an explanation of how trocha could be introduced into some bloodlines, but not all.... Responsible breeders would look at not only the bloodlines, but the possibilities of the genetics and gait purity/accuracy before proceeding.

How you can possibly get a spin out of 'be informed and know what your horse's bloodlines might indicate' is beyond me...

[Kerry W]

.....

[SandyMM]

If he were such a rock star in fino, why not put him up against his fino peers?Who said he was?

[Kerry W]

.....

[SandyMM]

Kerry - you have taken this in a direction that is incomprehensible. I said - and say again even more clearly - to produce the best, most accurately gaited Paso Fino, consider your bloodlines, but also what your direct bloodlines produce since some of the (older, at least) imported diagonal bloodlines were capable of passing on Paso Fino gait.

I have no idea what your rant is re: Don Danilo.... I believe I stated that he is considered the father of the modern diagonal horses and was capable of all four gaits - nothing more and nothing less, but that doesn't mean all of his descendents were/are diagonally gaited - as his dam was Paso Fino gaited....

Where's the inaccuracy and what does his show record have to do with paying attention to what you breed?

[Kerry W]

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

[Marleen Robinson]

Are Paso Fino Horses considered Trocha Horses, or Trocha Y Galope horses, Or the other ways around?? NO! They are ALL PASO HORSES with DIFFERENT MODALITIES!! When are some of you people going to get this??? I own Paso Finos, for their specific GAIT. I will one day also have the pleasure of having a TYG in my barn, also for the specific GAIT. Do I plan to interbreed the two 'gaits'? NO!! What would be the point?
My Paso Fino horses are very well gaited, but also do a nice hand gallop. Should I try and market them as TYG's? According to some of you, maybe I should! Haha! My gelding is one hell of a jumper. Maybe I will hit the Hunter Jumper circuit. If we embrace the Paso Horse, as a whole, maybe it can saved. I don't think newbies are as confused about different modalities as you think they are! They will check out all of the 'links' provided. Actually, they could probably tell 'us' a thing or two... Get over it, get along. I am tired of this MY WAY or NO WAY attitude....

[motorgypsy]

I was told by a diagonal and paso fino breeder that Don Danilo went FC competing in the paso fino gait. The person who stated this was someone I felt was knowledgeable so I repeated the information. I see he went FC in trocha galope. I should have checked before I stated this. My mistake. Second hand information should not be posted as fact and I do know better.

It's not winter yet so I have not idea why this subject is so "hot button". Every diagonal breeder I've talked to has said they have no desire or intentions of ever breeding to paso finos. the "owner" of the online magazine has every right to put anything she wants in it. So let's get over it.

We all know as I mentioned earlier that there are lots and lots of different things in our breed background. This is good because we have a diverse gene pool are are much less likely to end up with an "Impressive" type disaster - unless we continue to got the route of producing more and more similar show paso finos. I have no doubt that the great variety will continue to be bred because the horse owning public is aging and this older population really likes the paso fino and they all have different preferences in everything from size to temperament to gait type or style. But I do hate to see the show paso finos becoming more and more similar. Not that they are not really well gaited and well behaved and gorgeous - they are. But need to maintain that diversity to keep a healthy population in our breed. So to think that because we do or we may have Peruvian, TW, Naragansett pacer, morgan and heaven forbid, trocha horses in the breed's background makes little different in our breeding unless we have evidence that a particular line produces "bad gait" of any type trotty or pacey. We breed for what the standards are and what we each like.

I'm far more concerned about the pacer or the TW or the morgan in our breed than I am about trocha or Peruvian. Trocha and Peruvian share a lot with our breed and the Peruvian actually does an isochronal gait. It wouldn't surprise me to know that a number to trocha horses CAN do an isochronal gait but just don't prefer it.

Of course the advantage of this thread is that we are educating people about the paso fino, it's heritage, its correct gait and the fact that it is not a machine, its muscles will tire and it will change into a different gait which may be trotty, pacey, a canter or a just plain trot. This does not make it a bad paso fino if it prefers the isochronal gait. This is the key to a good paso fino. The isochronal or evenly timed and spaced gait is its PREFERRED gait, not its ONLY gait. Of course a good conformation, a sweet disposition, a good mind and being drop dead gorgeous doesn't hurt.:v: So of course check the pedigree and what the lines produce but also check the horse itself and just because the pedigree looks great doesn't mean the horse isn't a really bad example of the paso fino breed.

[pnalley]

A part of Nancy's signature states

"One can disagree without being disagreeable"

I would ask that everyone remember that and keep personal attacks private. If you have a problem with one another, email or PM it. Please keep this thread as a learning tool.

Opinions are welcome, many of you have well thought out responses to this issue, others appear to be taking issue with certain people.

This is such a small breed, even when all modalities are included. It would be nice if we actually presented ourselves as ambassadors for our chosen breed or modality

[paintedhorizon]

HUGE ditto to pnalley!

[CarolU]

Ok....if we're being forced to accept trotting and trocha horses in the registry, why not open it up to andadura and speed pacers?

Is there a diagonal prejudice?

[Siggy]

The diagonals are not being registered currently (3 generation pedigree of Paso Fino modality required). Those that are in there, have been for a very long time.
It is the show certification and classes that are being forced on the membership.

[motorgypsy]

Well guess what guys - I talked to a Colombian paso fino trainer today who said he's always heard that Don Damilo went FC in paso fino as well as trocha. I'm pretty sure it was another Colombian trainer/breeder who told me he went FC in three areas. They also indicated that they didn't think Confepaso's records were anywhere near complete. so we're back to where we started on Don Danilo. Anyone have video of him???

Another breeder told me that Piloto de Resorte IV was once ridden in a demo at a show and was ridden in paso fino, trocha and trote galope, all executed perfectly with just a minimal posture adjustment by the rider. I supposed that considering the fact that some saddlebreds and Icelandics are expected to trot as well as gait this really isn't peculiar but I still want my paso fino to PREFER gait rather than trot or pace.

Funny you mentioned the andadura horses CarolU because I also said they were being left out of the discussion - like it's OK to have pacey horses in the heredity but not trotty horses. :rolleyes:

[Siggy]

andadura is the gait beyond Paso Fino. Andadura horses do not go "pacey" at the corto or largo generally - it is when they are past range of square that they go to andadura, that is why there is a distance before the race starts for them to attain speed.
Some horses can maintain closer to square (Paso Fino) gait at higher speeds while others slip to andadura, both gaits are acceptable in races, neither is preferred or penalized as long as they do not break to a gallop.

[CarolU]

I agree Siggy that horses with a lateral tendency will go to andadura easily and pace if pushed farther w/o breaking into a canter. I have one such horse. (She is 31/32 PR)

I have a question Siggy, or anyone who knows. Do they or do they not breed specifically for fast Andadura and flying pace horses in PR for the speed racing? I think so.

If so, aren't they very similar to what we see in COL, different 'modalities' bred from the same gene pool?

And finally a rhetorical question, why do we treat PR modalities different then COL modalities?

This is not to say that andadura and pace don't exist in Colombia also, but as far as I know there isn't a competition around them.

[Siggy]

As described to me by someone who is importing an andadura horse, the ability and desire to go beyond Paso Fino gait in speed (without breaking to gallop) is similar to the ability of a very good Paso Fino to collect without breaking out of Paso Fino. Not all can do it at the same level, it takes talent and then beyond that breeding. Now that there are horses with that talent, breeders are specializing in the lines and type of horse that show those abilities.


There are many people that argue that lines of Paso Finos can not be bred to enhance specific disciplines, I personally disagree but is only what some believe.

I dont believe WE treat PPR modalities different than Colombian. In PR they only recognize one modality, and the name of the breed PASO FINO. They believe that any other form is just not good gait. They also do not describe as perfect time or isochronal, that is American things.
The Andadura horse is not a modality of the Paso Fino. It is not requested in show horse. It is now being developed as speed horse, and is allowing pure PR andadura AND others. I believe two division for the new registration as well Pure PR and those with other blood (Standardbred). They in no way claim to be create fast PASO FINO, they claim to raise andadura horses. You do not HAVE to mix but is allowed in one division. This is new association so that may change as they grow.
It is a different sport and no you do not bring your show PASO FINO to compete at same level as andadura speed horse unless it is that fast.

[GregM]

That will indeed be interesting. Speed can be fun and I applaud them for their clarity of purpose. First to finish is so much less subjective.

[Barb P]

( There are many people that argue that lines of Paso Finos can not be bred to enhance specific disciplines, I personally disagree but is only what some believe.)

I certainly agree with you on the breeding to enhance certain disciplines. I have taken my very fino mares and bred them to a pleasure stallion to hope for what I want to produce for my market. If a stallion, it is gelded as soon as possible because I do not believe in breeding to a stallion that has strong fino on mare and strong pleasure on sire. It would be a guessing game on the offspring. If a mare comes of this breeding, it is one that would be bred to the most desired for the market of that person whether pleasure or fino.
I love speed in the largo and have had stallions and mares (full brothers and sisters) that all made their mark for speed in the largo classes and put their dam on top ten dams 6 times. Of course, Coral LaCE was known for putting this range of gait as well. Hence , the largo is not a guessing game after years of doing this.
I know Don Danilo was an outstanding horse and have always been told he won in all 3 divisions the FC. Angel Usetigi stated in Conquistador magazine that Coral LaCE was a grandson of him. If so, that is ok. I never bought Coral LaCE because of his background or because I had seen him. In fact , I was told from the beginning that any horse from Colombia , one could have the seller put what ever on the pedigree. It was because I went to the shows in 1977 and on that I would see maybe 5-6 pasos with their owners and it was beauty in motion as to unity of the rider and horse. I quickly found out that the "Pasos" that caught my eye were all sired by the same stallion, Coral LaCE. I do agree that one can breed to enhance the discipline for sure.

[jackymac]

Face it people, the Trote Y Galope are not going anywhere, they are here to stay, we love them and people love them. I will embrace every opportunity I can get to expose my Trote Y Galope stallion Bolero in every magazine/articles/on line magazine as I can!
If I felt that PFHA had the passion and offered classes for the breed, I would show him there too but I dont beleive they are wanted there YET!

What can I say Bolero is irresistable and everybody wants to look at him!!! :-)

Tracey, thank you for the opportunity to show off Bolero on your on line magazine, when you decide to do the full story on Trote Y Galope and Trocha let me know and maybe we can make everybody who has concerns or issues with this great breed put to rest once in for all!

Jacky

[PasoPal]

You're missing the point here Jacky. The question was "Are TyG horses paso finos?" Get with the program or don't post. The answer is no and it was wrong to post Bolero in an article that was supposed to represent paso finos, not TyG horses. If there was an article about TyG horses, it would be wrong to have photos of TyG horses but throw in a picture of Capuchino, how stupid is that? :rolleyes:

[Serendipity]

know one is saying they should go anywhere as a breed

what they are saying is they are NOT paso fino and should not be repersnted as such

its understandable to want to advertise any chance you get most of us do, but it is greedy to place or allow placment of a horse in an article it does not belong.

that said will you be OK with a Paso Fino stallion showcasing in the trote and trocha article? I mean its the same thing right? my guess is no

its not enough to tell people to just deal with it we are talking seprate breeds here why is that so hard to understand? if you would not cross a trote or trocha w/ a paso fino that goes even more to show they are very differant.

the trote and trocha horse may be great horses but do not belong with the paso fino enjoy and promote them for what they are but they are not Paso Fino

[pnalley]

From what I have read, no one has a problem with them (TyG's) being considered a Paso Horse. But people do take issue with them being registered with the Paso FINO assoc.

If the registry was the American Paso Horse Assoc. Then the different Modalities would fall under that umbrella. But at this time it is American Paso Fino. It just doesn't make sense.

What little I know of these horses I find very interesting. And some day I'll get that test ride on Bolero:v:

[Siggy]

Thankfully the editors have realized the TYG horses are not part of Paso Finos and wont be running photos or information on the diagonals in future issues for Paso Finos. AND they have stated that they may have interest to run issue with all of the diagonals in future. This way wont confuse readers, Paso Finos will be well represented and the diagonals can promote the horses they want in their own issue

[jackymac]

You're missing the point here Jacky. The question was "Are TyG horses paso finos?" Get with the program or don't post. The answer is no and it was wrong to post Bolero in an article that was supposed to represent paso finos, not TyG horses. If there was an article about TyG horses, it would be wrong to have photos of TyG horses but throw in a picture of Capuchino, how stupid is that? :rolleyes:


HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO YOU TOO!!!!

Mind over matter!

[Finoman]

You're missing the point here Jacky. The question was "Are TyG horses paso finos?" Get with the program or don't post. The answer is no and it was wrong to post Bolero in an article that was supposed to represent paso finos, not TyG horses. If there was an article about TyG horses, it would be wrong to have photos of TyG horses but throw in a picture of Capuchino, how stupid is that? :rolleyes:
If She is missing the point, then what the ^%$# are you doing on a Trot and Gallope thread???? Looks like your in the wrong program. The Trote Y Galope is a very good fit alongside the Paso. Brings shall I say some Pizzazz to the show. Personally I like the Fino, but enjoy the T y G being around. Quit getting your panties in a bunch because a TyG shows up in a Paso Article

[pnalley]

Please no personal attacks.

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

We are all entitled to our opinions, but we are not entitled to make jabs. Keep it clean folks. And everyone...take a deep breath....relax....

[jackymac]

You're missing the point here Jacky. The question was "Are TyG horses paso finos?" Get with the program or don't post. The answer is no and it was wrong to post Bolero in an article that was supposed to represent paso finos, not TyG horses. If there was an article about TyG horses, it would be wrong to have photos of TyG horses but throw in a picture of Capuchino, how stupid is that? :rolleyes:


I was being nice and did not attack anybody but I think that PasoPal is out of line by her post "get with the program or don't post" "how stupid is that" NOT NICE at all, are you the AMP moderator now??

Get use to it, the Trote Y Galope and Trocha horses are here to stay and will be right along the Paso Fino horses wether you like it or not.

By the way, you will want to get the next issue of Show Time Equestrian Magazine, it will be loaded with Trote Y Galope and Trocha information! Can't wait! :-)

Should we be preparing ourselves for a bunch of crap about that too?

go to www.usatta.org and read about the breed, educate yourselves :-)

Have an awsome Thanksgiving Day to you all Trote Y Galope & Paso Fino Lovers!!!!!

[Lori Perez]

You're missing the point here Jacky. The question was "Are TyG horses paso finos?" Get with the program or don't post. The answer is no and it was wrong to post Bolero in an article that was supposed to represent paso finos, not TyG horses. If there was an article about TyG horses, it would be wrong to have photos of TyG horses but throw in a picture of Capuchino, how stupid is that? :rolleyes:

I personally found your "stupid" statement to be rude toward Jacky also. It was not called for. You may need to open your mind up a little to learn more about the history of our horse (the Paso horse and it's evolution). And, if you don't want to fine, but don't expect everyone else to agree with you.

The answer to the question is No. A Trote y Galope is Not a Paso FINO. I have caps on the word FINO because that is just one of the four PASO modalities. There are four, not just one.

And, so what, no one is going to get that confused when they look at the article. A kid should be able to figure it out. They are just starting out and there is bound to be some confusion. As it was several people did write to the editors and they were more than accomodating to make some changes to the article as it was first written.

[Marleen Robinson]

I totally agree with Jacky and Lori. The comment was uncalled for. I have always said that a Paso FINO is NOT a TyG, or the other way around. BUT! They are all PASO HORSES! One breed, different modalities. I also believe there should be a separate registry, but, showing together, under the same 'umbrella', would bring more spectators to shows. As long as gaits are explained, I don't think people would be too confused. I absolutely love the Paso Horse, all of them. Gee, who said it??? 'Can't we all gait along'????
I still love that one, Lori!
I wish some of you folks would open your eyes, and minds. There is more out there than just Fino horses(my personal favorites..), but from personal experience, a Paso Fino Show can be very boring to newcomers. "Is that all they do?", is the main question I get from folks. Let's stir things up a bit. Make things interesting again, like it used to be in the 80's. I believe it could only help the breed!

[Serendipity]

Make things interesting again, like it used to be in the 80's. I believe it could only help the breed!


why not just go back to the entertaining classes that they had in the 80s? in the 80's the only thing shown were Paso Fino horses but more interesting classes and not everything tight and quick but where speed was a prized as was the truely fino horses

I agree lets go back to the 80's and the 80s classes but alas they did not have trotting classes either

[Marleen Robinson]

Things have changed alot over the last 20 years, some for the better, some not. I know we'll never get back to the 80's, when I first fell in love with the Paso Fino. I have 4 of them now, ranging from Fino to Pleasure quality, 2 mares, 2 geldings. From 14 to 27 years old. Love them all. What's next? As soon as I can afford one, a TyG. It wasn't until a few years ago, that I learned about these awesome Pasos. At 2007 Mundial in Jax, they just blew me away. Jacky's Bolero is one of the most beautiful, and sweet horses i've ever had the pleasure to meet. Jacky and Tres, and Chino are really sweet also... not to leave out the 'humans'...

I will, as long as I am capable of caring for them, have Paso Fino horses, but I do love the 'other' modalities also. I still think showing Paso Fino Horses and Paso Horses at the same shows, would only improve attendance. If PFHA wants that extra seat, maybe they should change their name to PHA, if they want to register TyG, Trocha etc, or just forget about the seat($$$$), and work together with ATTA, IPHF, etc.Whatever, I don't understand politics, never will, but I think we should all strive to better the breed, as a WHOLE, the PASO HORSE. JMO

[CarolU]

Soooo, are the Andadura and Flying Pace PR horses Pasos too? Just different modalities. Right?

[Siggy]

CarolU, you keep bringing this up but sadly you dont seem to understand andadura or modality.
There is no such thing as a flying pace PPR.
Andadura is a race, an event, not what the horses prefer to move at in normal use. You do not ride a horse at andadura speed for long period of time.

When those horse that race in andadura are ridden at regular speed they are in the paso fino modality. Sure some may be more pacey but that is matter of quality of gait genetics not a bred for modality.

[SandyMM]

PASO HORSEJust remember that not all countries consider the "Paso Horse" the (only) breed. To say the "Paso Horse" _must_ include 'all modalities' is to _exclude_ the pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino whose registry does _not_ allow for modalities... More properly, you are referring to the Colombian Paso Horse. PFHA is focused and dedicated to promoting only the Paso Fino gaited horses - regardless of country of origin. PFHA is not interested in registering the diagonals the same as they register PF gaited horses so far as I have heard.

No one says the TyGs shouldn't be registered or shown or enjoyed. However, many of us see the insistence that 'Paso Horses' _must_ include the diagonal modalities as an exclusion of the pure Puerto Rican bred horses whose registries do _not_ accept diagonal modalities.

This is not a PPR vs. Col... Just an observation that not everyone includes the diagonal modalities in their definition of all Paso horses.

[SandyMM]

Make things interesting again, like it used to be in the 80'sI would go so far as to say make it more like the 70s when you could actually tell the difference in classes by more than the outfits being worn. The call for 'Largo' was a huge crowd pleaser, fino was more about precision than speed, and pleasure horses were relaxed and a pleasure to both ride and watch. Oh - and 'smooth' was still an important component of the classes...

[SandyMM]

Soooo, are the Andadura and Flying Pace PR horses Pasos too? Just different modalities. Right?The registration rules for PPRs are very specific as to gait and even style of execution... I believe they may even specify the height of the step allowed.... I just read it recently and will look it up again and post in a new thread... Some of the horses that are being raced now are actually outcrosses to Standardbreds and other racing stock. They are not (necessarily?) PPR registered.

[Marleen Robinson]

Well Carol, I can not answer that one. I do not know a lot about the Andadura Horses. I am, however trying to educate myself. They are certainly interesting. Personally, I am not a horseracing fan. I like TB's, QH's, Arabians, but never liked the racing aspect of the breeds. I used to train French Trotters to the Sulky many years ago, in Europe. I did not like it at all, but back then, I was a teenager, needing money.. One of the mares I used to work, won tons of money, and was then killed after a bad fall on the track, so the owner just went out and got a 'new one', the next day. Left a very bad taste ...
Just like TB, QH, you name it, they are all good at something, be it dressage, jumping, trail... You go to one of their shows, and they are togeter, at the same show, shown in different modalities, if you want to call it that. But they are all TB, QH, the same breed. What is so wrong with Pasos doing the same thing? Paso finos can do many different things, so can TyG, Trochas, etc. Let's band together, show folks who don't want a Fino Horse, or even a Paso Fino, that there are choices. Pasos are great!

[CarolU]

Just remember that not all countries consider the "Paso Horse" the (only) breed. To say the "Paso Horse" _must_ include 'all modalities' is to _exclude_ the pure Puerto Rican Paso Fino whose registry does _not_ allow for modalities... More properly, you are referring to the Colombian Paso Horse. PFHA is focused and dedicated to promoting only the Paso Fino gaited horses - regardless of country of origin. PFHA is not interested in registering the diagonals the same as they register PF gaited horses so far as I have heard.

No one says the TyGs shouldn't be registered or shown or enjoyed. However, many of us see the insistence that 'Paso Horses' _must_ include the diagonal modalities as an exclusion of the pure Puerto Rican bred horses whose registries do _not_ accept diagonal modalities.

This is not a PPR vs. Col... Just an observation that not everyone includes the diagonal modalities in their definition of all Paso horses.

I agree Sandy...there are also Peruvian Pasos, Marchadors, Crillos, etc. that are all Paso horses.

[Sadlz]

I am a newbie. Can a Colombian Paso be taught to Trote and Galope? If so, how? I have an unregistered Paso. His father has Resorte Cuatro and III and I along with Kofresi. His mother was a mare named Cumbia from Colombia. But, for some reason, he was never registered. He is very bulky.

[motorgypsy]

There are paso fino horses that can execute all the modalities including trote and galope. In fact one long time breeder told me of watching one famous fino stallion doing a demo in trote, trocha, galope and true fino.

A really good trainer could ride your horse and tell you if it has the talent. What I find amazing about these horses is their ability to do all sorts of different gaits if they choose to.

Kofresi is a famous Pure Puerto Rican stallion. The resorte horses are Colombian so it appears that he's both Puerto Rican and Colombian but both lines have some very talented representatives.

he sounds like he's a lot of fun. Tell us more and how about some pictures??

[pnalley]

Welcome to the forum. That's a good question, I don't know enough about the TyG's to be able to answer that.

[GERAL1030]

I had not been on this forum for a while, but this topic interested me and im going to give my opinion.

Why are people so scared to hear the truth?? Why is PFHA a total LOSS??
Why wont PFHA succedd??

ill tell you why, Because people like most members are scared to read, investigate, find out that paso horses arent only FINO horses because FINO to tell you all does not include PERFORMANCE OR PLEASURE. So why are these inculded in the PASO but not the trot and galop horses?

Did you know that colombian associations dont even charge you a STABLE at a show, all you pay is the class fee? and do you know why?

Because EVERY class they have is INTERESTING therefore you have 20 to 30 horses PER class.

PASO FINO COLOMBIANO
-FINO
-TROTE Y GALOPE
-TROCHA
-TROCHA Y GALOPE

These are the classes people want to see, these are the kind of shows people what to attend. these are the classes that bring profit to an association.
And i know a whole bunch of you will start talking and stating "points" but i challenge you to go to colombia and watch a REAL horse show. then come back and tell me are the shows here worth you wasting your money or not?

So to answer the question YES a trot and galop horse IS a PASO HORSE.

And i know it is going to hurt alot of you in the heart but PFHA will soon have to accomodate their rules to CONFEPASO, because they are an association OF CONFEPASO

Thank you

[Lori Perez]

I am a newbie. Can a Colombian Paso be taught to Trote and Galope? If so, how? I have an unregistered Paso. His father has Resorte Cuatro and III and I along with Kofresi. His mother was a mare named Cumbia from Colombia. But, for some reason, he was never registered. He is very bulky.

Hi Welcome: Well lets think about that. Just about any horse can be taught to Trot & Galop, it is the type of Trot & Galop and the bloodines that make a horse a true Colombian "Trote y Galope".
I have seen many non-gaited horses such as an Andalusian be taught through use of spurs and crops how to Trot in place, etc. Most all horses can canter.

You mention "Colombian Paso", but if your horse has Kofresi in the bloodline...that is PR blood. So it is a mixture of both. Your horse may not have been registered due to the fact that he is not naturally gaited and bulky..which are two things you don't want in a Paso

Hope this helps.

[pnalley]

I have seen many non-gaited horses such as an Andalusian be taught through use of spurs and crops how to Trot in place, etc. Most all horses can canter.

In non gaited breeds it's called a piaffe. You make it sound as though the horses are beaten into submission, and that simply isn't true in Classical Dressage. Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaffe) for a short clip on Piaffe

[Lori Perez]

In non gaited breeds it's called a piaffe. You make it sound as though the horses are beaten into submission, and that simply isn't true in Classical Dressage. Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaffe) for a short clip on Piaffe

Oh come on I never implied that they are beaten!!! It is just a fact they are used as tools. I know what a Piaffe is.. Also it is not just done in Classical Dressage. Check out the Bailadores of Mexico.
(Notice crop and spurs - this is how they teach them the ques)

http://www.youtube.com/user/BLITS82#p/a/u/1/_u0BAc0FRE8 (there are several examples on youtube)

[SandyMM]

What is the purpose of the caballos bailando? Is this something the riders do to show off their horses locally? Are there competitions? If so, are there specific criteria?

[pnalley]

Lori, I'm sorry I mistook your post.

Great link! The horse has a nice quiet tail. He darned near has the canter piroutte figured out.

[CarolU]

Excuse me? That clip has nothing to do with classical dressage, and the piaffe most certainly is included in Classical Dressage!!! Period.

This is dressage....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

And while it is taught with spurs sometimes (once in the saddle) and a whip, the horse isn't spurred and whipped until it piaffes. Those are 'go forward' cues, and the forward is blocked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUoKtanhOXM

I think you'll find many clips of horses taught without spurs, and some of horses taught without either.

[Lori Perez]

Excuse me? That clip has nothing to do with classical dressage, and the piaffe most certainly is included in Classical Dressage!!! Period.

This is dressage....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

And while it is taught with spurs sometimes (once in the saddle) and a whip, the horse isn't spurred and whipped until it piaffes. Those are 'go forward' cues, and the forward is blocked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUoKtanhOXM

I think you'll find many clips of horses taught without spurs, and some of horses taught without either.

WHY SO QUICK TO JUMP? AGAIN - I WAS MISUNDERSTOOD. I Think I should not post to this site anymore. :) I guess I have trouble putting my thoughts into words these days. I didn't say that the clip I was posting WAS Classical Dressage. The point I was making (to help the poster understand) was a non gaited horse could be taught to Trot & Galop (collected). Also I did not mean a Piaffe was not part of dressage. I meant I KNEW what a Piaffe was.

The gray mare (Andreas Helgstrand video) was flawless, stunning and one of the best I have ever seen. It takes YEARS of training and complete dedication to accomplish this.

Here is another "Bailadora" I found of a Freisan, who is doing more basic dressage moves. There are big farms and people do pay very good money for the horses, there are competitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De4ENYxeMJw&feature=related

Stop jumping on people - maybe more new people will feel like it is OK to ask a question!

[CarolU]

You know Lori, there is a Paso Fino breeder near here who, quite confidently tells people that Fino gait is created by tying the horses in a chute and whipping them until they Fino. You can't argue with this man; he SAW IT many years ago at a training farm in Florida, so obviously all Fino horses are trained that way. Needless to say, I 'jumped on' him too.

You say something like that without thinking, and post a video like that, and believe me there is some IDIOT who goes out and spurs and whips his horse to "piaffe" and thinks he's doing it right.

You are quite correct, it takes YEARS to train a dressage horse correctly, not some cowboy with a whip.

[pnalley]

Lori,
can you tell us what the original or current use is for the "Bailadora" horses.

Just guessing but it looks to be the same original use of the dressage moves, which was moves used in battle.

Very interesting!

I think we can all agree a good horse is a good horse regardless of what they do!

[Lori Perez]

You know Lori, there is a Paso Fino breeder near here who, quite confidently tells people that Fino gait is created by tying the horses in a chute and whipping them until they Fino. You can't argue with this man; he SAW IT many years ago at a training farm in Florida, so obviously all Fino horses are trained that way. Needless to say, I 'jumped on' him too.

You say something like that without thinking, and post a video like that, and believe me there is some IDIOT who goes out and spurs and whips his horse to "piaffe" and thinks he's doing it right.

You are quite correct, it takes YEARS to train a dressage horse correctly, not some cowboy with a whip.

Carol you completely lost me. How is this relavant to what I said or posted? What excactly are you talking about "You say something like that without thinking...etc." How does some guy who abuses his horse in a chute have anything to do with what I said!

[Lori Perez]

Lori,
can you tell us what the original or current use is for the "Bailadora" horses.

Just guessing but it looks to be the same original use of the dressage moves, which was moves used in battle.

Very interesting!

I think we can all agree a good horse is a good horse regardless of what they do!

Check out this interesting website. This page is of the gallery
http://yeguadaherrera.com/horse_ranch/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/lang,en/

They are located in California. Beautiful Horses!!!

[CarolU]

Lori, you said:

I have seen many non-gaited horses such as an Andalusian be taught through use of spurs and crops how to Trot in place, etc.

which is kind of the same as whipping a Paso Fino inside a chute until it Finos.

Both gaits are natural (trot and fino), both types of horses are trained with go forward cues, but forward motion is blocked.

-----or you can whip and spur them.

[SandyMM]

The use of a crop and spurs does not inherently mean a horse is 'whipped and spurred' abusively... They can be useful aids when used correctly. They can extend the reach to touch appropriate parts of a horse's body not easily reached in order to teach cues...

For somebody like me, spurs make it possible to touch a horse's sides for cues - instruction or attention-getting - when it is darn near physically impossible for me to do otherwise....... short legs and all, dontcha know.... ;)

Consider - which would aggravate a horse more - constant bumping on the sides by an ineffective, hesitant rider's boot heels attempting to 'cue' a horse or a single touch of a spur by a competent rider to get a point across? Do all horses or riders need spurs - no. Are they effective and efficient for some horses and riders - yes.

This portion of this thread would be better posted in the training forum....

[Lori Perez]

Carol dressage horses are taught with crops and spurs, but they aren't considered abused. They are not being held back as you say. Sandy - yes, I agree..It got off subject. So anyone have a questions about Trote y Galope horses??? Carol did you take a look at the website? Just curious?

[Paso Matchmaker Extraordinaire]

....goodness....:rolleyes:

Oh right....we are in the middle of Winter again. My mistake. :p

[Serendipity]

can you post more pix of TYG horses in action other than the few we've seen? I'd be interesed to see how the mares look and the gelding for that matter as the stallions look so bulky and bull doggy(no offence) other than that one dark bay/black on you posted a while back.

I'm more of a mare person so i like to see how mares look in motion are they more refined? or are all bulker or most? if its a bloodline thing what bloodline tend to be more refined?

[Lori Perez]

Nicole were you the one who was not able to view video? I will try and find some pictures on the net, but here are some of mares I had on my PC. I also can post some video links if you want to see that

[Lori Perez]

Here are some pictures of a beautiful buckskin mare "Diva" She is owned by Katreena Haley of Dunnellon, Florida (by the way she is open & available for purchase), next a beautiful dark bay mare owned by Barbara Perich's daughter of Tampa, FL. Then I have a post of a Trote y Galope foal (origin not know)

[CarolU]

Carol dressage horses are taught with crops and spurs, but they aren't considered abused. They are not being held back as you say. Sandy - yes, I agree..It got off subject. So anyone have a questions about Trote y Galope horses??? Carol did you take a look at the website? Just curious?

They are being held back. Did you watch the video in how to train piaffe correctly? If you don't think Fino horses are held back, maybe you need to relook at bosals and Colombian bits.

I watched the video you posted on how (NOT) to train "dressage." I am heartbroken that you consider that correct training.

Lori, I have no problem with TyG horses..or Troche horses, or any South American horse...Trochadors, Merchadors, Peruvian Pasos. The list is long. The only problem I have is marketing any/all of them as Paso Finos. It may be a nuance you understand, but I deal with people new to the breed all the time, at it totally lost on them.

My only argument was with your statement about whipping and spurring horses until they trot in place as being "piaffe training." I don't see that as any different then XXXs statement that Fino horses are whipped until they Fino. Both may be true by some a-holes who consider themselves trainers, but they certainly are not the methods of trainers or horsemen in any correct definition of the words in either discipline, any more then dog fighters are the same as dog lovers.

You try to stop stereotypes by perpetuating others. Both are wrong.

[Lori Perez]

Next is Glenna Struthers with her friend during a parade in Oregon on her wonderful gelding "Durango" and er friend riding a her mare "Sissy", the next photo is of the same mare. Then There is Regina Corcoran riding her mare Cali del Caribe during an all breed expo in Jacksonville, FL Another new baby and lastly is a mare I sold last year to a lovely lady in South Carolina "Pandora".

I hope enjoy them.

[Lori Perez]

They are being held back. Did you watch the video in how to train piaffe correctly? If you don't think Fino horses are held back, maybe you need to relook at bosals and Colombian bits.

I watched the video you posted on how (NOT) to train "dressage." I am heartbroken that you consider that correct training.

Lori, I have no problem with TyG horses..or Troche horses, or any South American horse...Trochadors, Merchadors, Peruvian Pasos. The list is long. The only problem I have is marketing any/all of them as Paso Finos. It may be a nuance you understand, but I deal with people new to the breed all the time, at it totally lost on them.

My only argument was with your statement about whipping and spurring horses until they trot in place as being "piaffe training." I don't see that as any different then XXXs statement that Fino horses are whipped until they Fino. Both may be true by some a-holes who consider themselves trainers, but they certainly are not the methods of trainers or horsemen in any correct definition of the words in either discipline, any more then dog fighters are the same as dog lovers.

You try to stop stereotypes by perpetuating others. Both are wrong.

"My only argument was with your statement about whipping and spurring horses until they trot in place as being "piaffe training." I am heartbroken that you consider that correct training. I NEVER SAID THOSE THINGS! AND I WAS JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO A NEW PERSON THAT ANY HORSE CAN MOVE IN A TROTE AND GALOPE. THE LINK OF THE HORSE I POSTED SHOWED NO ABUSE NOTHING WRONG!!! SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE AFTER LADY. Let not agrue back and forth but don't even go there about harsh training methods. Dressage training can be extremely harsh. I don't look kindly to any horse being abused and I don't take kindly to your comments or you twisting my words.

[Serendipity]

Nicole were you the one who was not able to view video

yes thats me on slow dial up,lol

[Serendipity]

the pix were nice i could really look at them something you can't do with a video,
the mares appear much more refined

what it the reason for the roached manes?
and is white markings as shund against in Columbia as they are in Paso Fions? (was in judges perfer no white)

also do they go into their trot gait naturally? or are they a horse has has to go to a trainer to be taught? can a A/O bring the horse to its full gaiting potential?

I ask because many times trainers are a high price that some can not afford so i am wondering can Joe Public get one of these and have some experiance with gaited horse and get the gait? or can you see them gaiting in the field on their own as you can with a Paso Fino?

I had a huge thrill a few evenings ago as i watched Prueba in Largo speed heading up the hill to come to me to be brought in,it was beautiful and fast and correct(sighs with contentment)

[CarolU]

No whips, no spurs, classical dressage training....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiP7nsVHizw

---Sandy, I do agree with you. Whips and spurs, when used correctly, are cues, not punishment.

[Lori Perez]

the pix were nice i could really look at them something you can't do with a video,
the mares appear much more refined

what it the reason for the roached manes?
and is white markings as shund against in Columbia as they are in Paso Fions? (was in judges perfer no white)

also do they go into their trot gait naturally? or are they a horse has has to go to a trainer to be taught? can a A/O bring the horse to its full gaiting potential?

I ask because many times trainers are a high price that some can not afford so i am wondering can Joe Public get one of these and have some experiance with gaited horse and get the gait? or can you see them gaiting in the field on their own as you can with a Paso Fino?

I had a huge thrill a few evenings ago as i watched Prueba in Largo speed heading up the hill to come to me to be brought in,it was beautiful and fast and correct(sighs with contentment)

Hi Nicole - Sorry it took so long, but I haven't been on BB for a while.
1- The mane was originally roached for the purpose of it not getting tangled while working or on thick trails. It was also done to give the horse a more "Trojan" impressive neck. Nowdays, it has carried on as tradition in the show ring. (It also will distinguish the Trote y Galope from the Trocha y Galope as they wear the mane long).
2- You will see white on these horse, on the face and legs, but they can't be registered if the white is too high on leg. The issue of white has been discussed many times. But I can say I have found the diagonal Paso tend to have more white on them and there are lots of buckskin and chestnut mares.
3-Oh yes they gait naturally..just like a Paso. Just like any horse they may look more "polished" in the hands of a good trainer, but YES any A/O (that knows how to work a horse of course). They don't have to be kept at a trainers. ALL the mares I posted pictures of are being ridden by amateurs, and it just so happens all of them are the owners farms!

[pnalley]

ALL the mares I posted pictures of are being ridden by amateurs, and it just so happens all of them are the owners farms!

I'm all for horses that are owned, loved, ridden & shown by the owners. To me this is my favorite thig to learn about the TyG's:)

[Serendipity]

yes i agree that it is good news,
one thing i wish the pasos where more of seems if you are not working under a trainer at all times or can't afford a horse to be in permant training that the horse and owner are unworthy.

I like to show my own horse and i like a trainer as a guide but i want the horse to live and be ridden by me the most time I tryed leaving a horse at a trainers for a long time and it did not work out so well for me but now i work with a trainer that is willing to work with me its great and i look forward to the coming seasons.

I may have to ride a TyG just to see the differance now we'll see

[Lori Perez]

Nicole did you mean that people "look down on, or don't give them the same respect" the horses that are not in training? I guess it is which crowd you follow. We have a wonderful group of A/O in our area and they love to show off their horses AND do a lot of trail riding. I think as with any breed, it is the way a horse is handled and raised. What you give is what you get back in most cases.

[Serendipity]

yes in some regards though dont get me wrong i am not of those crowds as i said i perfer to ask the aid of a trainer just that an aid and try to do most of it myself.

but it has been brought up and thought on many times that if your paso is not in consant training it will and could never be as good as it would or could be.

I am also one that would like A/O and A/T classes. as again i normally work with a trainer long enough for the horse to be safe for me to ride since most of my riding is alone and where it would be many hours before someone found me if i were hurt. but i have been trying to maintain a lesson or coaching to help keep me in balance but for one i am not a rich person that can afford a horse to live with a trainer and for 2 i want to learn and be very much a part of my horses life.

I feel bad for the a/o rider that is tossed on there horse just before a class scared to death from really never having ridden there own horse(I know i've done that to) to comeing out of the ring hopping off and handing the horse back over to the trainer I also feel bad for the horse to not now a loveing home the training is a working place its thier job how horrible it would be to only stay at a job and never have someone to bring and treat or a scratch just because. please dont get me wrond some thrainers are exceptional and treat the horses as there own but all are not and its easy to see from sour looks on there horses faces who is lacking that personal touch-IMO nothing more nothing less

[Lori Perez]

There are less and less people who CAN afford to keep horses with a trainer full time. So the A/O needs to school themselves with a coach (like you did), keep up with their riding and not to expect to be just a "passenger - bump on a log type". If they are going to compete in the ring, they need to be conditioned just like the horse and I really helps having someone to give you feedback like an instructor or coach. I think it differs from just wanted to be a casual once in a while trail rider (nothing wrong with that either).

Paso Finos are really for people who like to "ride" and interact with their horse:) (My opinion anyway)

[CarolU]

There are less and less people who CAN afford to keep horses with a trainer full time. So the A/O needs to school themselves with a coach (like you did), keep up with their riding and not to expect to be just a "passenger - bump on a log type". If they are going to compete in the ring, they need to be conditioned just like the horse and I really helps having someone to give you feedback like an instructor or coach. I think it differs from just wanted to be a casual once in a while trail rider (nothing wrong with that either).

Paso Finos are really for people who like to "ride" and interact with their horse:) (My opinion anyway)

I think all gaited breeds have a tendency to create "bump on the log" passengers instead of active riders. I know I can be guilty of this pretty easily. When told to lower my energy to get the horse to stop, I found there was no lower then completely relaxed. It can become a bad habit, but not so bad for trail riding, since it could be a lot of muscle work, actively "riding" for hours on end.

Larry Whitesell says, and I agree, that if you work more on your riding, your horse will be a better horse. There is a lot to be said for that, being precise, being consistent, being aware of your horse and your body and what you are asking your horse to do.

This is true for all horses, but I do think gaited horse riders often deserve the reputation of being lazy. It is pretty easy to be a passenger rather then a rider.