Can Receding Frogs cause foot pain?

[Serendipity]

I have a mare that her frogs are receding much higher than i like but have not wanted to vet her because of stress due to she is about to foal and is not a mare that was handle or traveled much so the trip would stress her

she gets very lame in one front foot i pack it, boot it and give bute but she is now with in day/days of foaling so really don't want to give bute but have packed it and booted again

she walks ginger on the boot but will walk does not want to add weight to the foot if not in a boot.

so this has me stumped this is the 3-4 time in the last 2 months

so far i've doctored it and it is gane in a day or two to complete soundness
very little heat in the foot you have to feel both feet to tell there is a temp diff

I thought absess or laminitis of course and the first time treated for the founder but she was fine the next day and no tell tale pop outs or soft spots with an absess

my only clues are the really high frogs and the pain and when i clean her foot out she lets me know its sore but not like she is going to jerk away like "Dam That Hurts" pain but still nothing to lead me in any real direction.

I've already called my Vet Dr Moore but he is at a confrence and not able to call me back yet. I have very little resect for any other vets in the area so will wait to hear back from him

in the mean time i've searched the web and there is very little to find about frog pain

I have also ordered her 2 new boots that will hopefully fit better then the ones now

any thoughts on the whats and whys while i wait for the vet to call me back in a day or 2? she'll like be sound by then and hopefully will have had her foal.

she is very overweight and been on a diet to loose since i got her but with the foal i have not been able to be agressive at it so this slow approch look useless but again she is big as a barn with the foal so won't really know till she has one less passanger

but any thoughts on what to look for would be a great help and can you give bute to a mare this far along??

[pnalley]

Nichole is it possible has has a deep thrush? I have seen horses frogs look like they were disappearing and the owner found out (with a vets help) that the horse had really deep thrush.

The other thought would be are her heels actually contracting? Like a club footed horses feet will do? Possibly changes in the structure of the hooves along with the extra weight of being Prego is adding up to pain?

I don't think I'd give her any drugs if I could avoid it.

That said I had a mare that had to general anesthesia (2 times) while pregnant and took a boatload of pain meds during that time and the baby was just fine.

[stella]

This is likely to be either contracted heels, or navicular disease, which both exhibit a shrinking of the frog. Hopefully its not navicular(because then there's changes in the bursa and tendons), as that can be managed(to non-lameness)but not cured, but you can revert contracted heels over time.

In both cases, one major predisposition is long toe-low heel syndrome, too low an angle, so that too much pressure is put on the heel, rather than balancing it over the quarters of the hoof(centered), and the heels start collapsing inward and narrowing, and therefore that starts to impinge on the frog. (it also lowers the angles even more, and makes it worse)
Having extra weight on the horse doesnt help, her having the foal will help; but get her feet redone, asap...often, what may help is to pretty radically square the toe back to the point of breakover to help get pressure off the heels, helping to center the weight over the hoof more quickly, and without shoes.(and they need to pare those quarters back, so her poor frog has room to expand, touch the ground again, and pump some circulation thru that hoof again.) :grayhorse:
Your vet will be able to tell you which one(as both exhibit shrunken frog and pain)........do you have a picture of her feet?(so I can see angles, or even the bottom of her hoof too) Also, navicular horses tend to 'point' with their affected foot. Hope this helps.

[stella]

Paula's right, deep thrush can also cause this in the frog...that would be the easiest and quickest to solve!

[Serendipity]

well she is pointng right now but it seems just to relax the foot, no pix tonight i already have it packed and set so maybe tomm i will ask the vet on the navicular she has had a long toe low heel we have been correcting that the farrier was out just a few weeks ago and said she looked fine the feet looked good. and the last time she did this it was the other front foot.

so we'll see what tonight brings by the way she is acting it may just be baby time, but though you can tell she is in pain she is bright and eating and drinking well. I put absorbine on the leg as it was shaking a bit let her to her supper and took the horses out of the stalls around her will let her eat and relax and check on her in another few hours with luck baby will get here and all will be fine tonight.

but we'll see, I had way to much bad happen to take any single thing for granted, i'll have to stay exhausted one more night

[stella]

Well, if she did this in her other front foot and recovered, then its more likely to be "just" contracted heels, or the deep thrush(but you wouldve known/treated that, if it was?) although if you catch navicular early enough and it doesnt go on for months and months, it can be managed to soundness. But yes, the pointing is to relieve pressure/pain to the back of the hoof.....but if she's pawing, maybe that pretty baby will come tonight, and that'll help! Very best wishes with the foaling!

[Serendipity]

well good and bad news

the mare is still being stingy and has kept the foal but i can feel it and tickle it and it moves around thats of course the bad news we are still waiting on baby.

but the good news is well it starts out bad but yesterday morning she would put no weight on that foot at all and it was shaking from the pain from hoof to shoulder so i gave in and gave one gram of bute my thinking here is as much as i want the foal its not here and the mare is i must treat the mare first and all that stree would not be good for baby

anyway gram of bute and wrapped the legs in vet wrap fed her and waited to see how she would be in an hour or two.

much better this morning no lameness at all perfectly sound but this is why its driving me completely nuts and why i can't figure out what it is because it suddenly happens and then suddenly leaves.

as a curious thought she is laying down a lot more and she does have one foot under her could it be she is just putting one foot to sleep? and it takes it a while to wake up? I know that sounds stupid but i'll take stupid thoughts right now since the normals one are not working it took us forever to guess what was wrong with Prueba one time turned out she had a sore throat but it sure looked like she was drowning herself

I spoke with 2 farrier yesterday one her and they also had no more insite, this is crazy

[pnalley]

What does the vet think?

If he has no idea from just an exam, I'd say x-rays are next since they are non invasive.

[Serendipity]

talked to the Vet he is not sure said it sounds like it could be a few differant things but to keep doing what i am doing for now. since she can't travel till she foals and he can make a farm call

(we us a TN vet and he does not have an AL licence so he would but can't come to us I have not found a Vet around here i can work with or that doesn't kill my horses so we are sticking with our old vet that over an Hr and a half away it sucks but better safe than sorry)

He wants to do x-rays to rule out Nevicular and founder since it switched feet he does not believe is absesses but with all the weight he thinks that has something to do with it and we will be working hard to get the weight off.

[Leather]

What about trying Sole Guard?

http://www.vettec.com/65/products/soleguard.html

"Great for providing support for heavy, late term brood mares."

[stella]

That looks like really good stuff, thanks for providing the link......but when I went to look at the FAQs page on it, it said it was only for use on sound horses, and any horses lame and/or having issues with the soles/wline etc, needed to be cured before using this product. (that was at the very bottom, of course! but at least they addressed that issue)
So, I'd say.....not at this time....maybe later, after an accurate diagnosis of her problem, as if its thrush or wline, or similar soreness, this wouldnt be good til treated.
Sounds like a great product for trailriding, or a horse with soft sensitive feet where terrain is rocky.

[pnalley]

Nichole, how is she now? And do we have a baby yet?? Please remind us the breeding on the mare & stallion

[motorgypsy]

Looks like a good product but if there is any hint of an abscess or thrush I sure wouldn't use anything that seals the hoof up unless you pack the treatment under it first.