HELP! X-ray opinions needed!

[nellie99]

Ok ladies and gents, I really could use some feedback on these x-rays. They are of both front feet before a trim as they were when brought into the veterinary clinic, and then after a trim with wooden shoes put on. What do you see? I badly need input as I am getting contradictory answers. One photo is all four pictures on one page, the rest are of each indiviual foot. If I knew how to imbed the photos in the body of this post to make them bigger, I'd do it.

[Terry Wallace]

What specifically is it that you would like to know?
Obviously..the horse has some rotation. The coffin bone is rotating or has possibly rotated as much as it is going to.
The horse will show some "seedy toe" from this at the wall/sole connection...my question to you would be...is the horse lame? to what degree? OR..is the lameness barely detectable?
How old is the founder/laminitis?
Are you concerned about the shoe job(?) looks darn effective to me even though....it is axis-broken-forward...BUT..sometimes you "gotta do what you gotta do" to keep a horse more comfortable.
Now..do you have some regular hoof photos showing a side view? Do you have a pic of the sole BEFORE this horse was shod (trimmed but not yet shod)?

[nellie99]

I've been told she has rotation, and no rotation. She is lame, those shoes or subsequent farrier investigation has helped her. She is in dry lot. She is fleshy, but not fat. I personally see some rotation if I follow the lines of the bone and hoof. The shoes were pulled off only 10 days later because it was already starting to cause her soles to smell, and she has not been on wet surfaces. It's very dry in fact, and hot. Pastures are dry and heat stressed, grazed low. No photos of the sole before the shoes were put on, and no current side views. There are no rings, and this is a first time episode. I taped cushion foam to her soles today in hopes to give her some pressure relief. Second farrier said he saw no rotation (I gave him the x-rays to look at), and no evidence at the sole of founder, but maybe bruising, and some white line infection but not at the toe on one side wall. I'm getting upset because I don't know which "expert" to believe.

[Oops3]

Ok, so your veterinary clinic had the farrier come in and do the wooden shoes....? What exactly did your vet tell you? I also see some rotation, but it's what the vet told you that's important. Are you concerned that the vet may be wrong? Personally, I've never heard of wooden shoes, but that could just be me <grin> Get thick styrofoam (thick enough to fill her hoof and come out level with the hoof wall) and duct tape that to the underside. It makes a very good and comfortable temporary "shoe".
The fact that it is so dry and over-grazed will make what growth of grass there is even higher in sugars so keep her off! While she may not be fat, she may be insulin resistant and that can contribute to founder. I'm an ex-vet tech (lisc. in NY state), and while I can't diagnose, I can read hoof x-rays to some extent, and it does look like the beginnings of founder. You will need to find a farrier (sorry, would that be #3?) who can treat with maybe a heart-bar shoe.
I hope I've been of some help.....
Oops3

[Oops3]

Re-read your second post and I should add: Your 2nd farrier thinks in absolutes. He sees no signs of founder (would that be the coffin bone sticking out?) but he sees bruising. That is probably from the point of the coffin bone rotating down. Cushion foam is too soft, the styrofoam (someone must have just bought a stereo or computer that you know). Oh, and no there would be no rings as it's too early for growth rings to develop. They will later.
Please don't be upset. Find the nearest vet college and make an appt. with them. They should take care of things from soup to nuts to farrier work.
This is your most important task at the moment: taking care of your girl. You can do this. We're all behind you with our best wishes and best advice.
Oops3

[nellie99]

Unfortunately, the colleges charge so much money, it's not in my ability to pay their costs. I just can't give them what I don't have. I can get styrofoam. Thanks for the input.

[Linda Y]

As luck would have it, my farrier was out this morning to reset the shoes on my foundered mare. I asked him about the wooden shoes, since I have never seen them. He told me that as a matter of fact, he was doing a set on a horse that day.
He said they are called 'clogs'. And that they have to be very precise in their application. So much so, that several sets of xrays are used to make sure to get the depression in the wood in exactly the right place under the coffin bone. If it isn't right, it is useless. He also said that a casting material is put on over the clogs and the screw heads. It is apparently an extremely effective technique if done right.
I think he thought I was considering it for Cita, so he told me it is expensive, not just because of the clog, but all the xrays. But Cita is doing really well in her backwards shoes...I was just curious.
Ask your farrier about putting backwards shoes and gelpak on your mare.

[pnalley]

Hey Linda, we had a filly that had to wear backwards shoes. It is a very effective (inexpensive) way to work with hoof issue. Glad to heat Ms Cita is doing well.
My farrier is on facebook, I'll try to share thos pix with him to see what he says.

[Oops3]

Cost is always a factor, yes. I hadn't realized that could be a problem at the vet schools. My apologies.
Oops3

[nellie99]

Why apologize Oops3? You were giving me good suggestions, and I really appreciate that. Another vet saw the pictures today, and said definte rotation. His advice: bute, dexamethazone, soak feet to cool. Backwards shoes? Is it just like a keg shoe just put on backwards? Those "clogs" were just put on by the farrier without consulting further x-rays before securing them, it was kind of like he "eyed" them. Personally, I feel like I threw away $150. I think it is that vets cure all therapy, he had a table piled high with pre-cut wooden foot forms.

[Linda Y]

Oh, my. According to my farrier the horse they did took 4 hours to shoe. They would xray, position the clog, rexray, reposition. He said there is a ground out place that is suppose to go under the tip of the coffin bone, and without correct xrays with and without the clog it is useless. I forget the numbers he told me, but said that the horse they did, a high dollar barrel horse, went from almost perforated to almost normal. But it cost a lot of money because of all the xrays.
Yes, a backwards shoe is just a regular keg shoe nailed on backwards. It allows the toe to break over really quickly, even better than a heart bar. You should have seen Cita gait up for feed tonight! Big ol grin on MY face! She did blow an abscess while she was trimmed today. Just a small one on the bottom of her foot. But she never showed any sign that it was hurting her.

[nellie99]

Linda, just out of curiousity, could you take and post pictures of her shoes, from the top, (looking straight down from her chest), side, and bottom? I'm really curious about that approach. My poor girl was just slapped on shoes without any minute fitting precautions. :-( I want to see my girl gait up like that with a smile on her face! Nellie

[Linda Y]

Will do. I just turned them out and it is dark. But I will take some tomorrow for you. Just keep in mind, this has been a long process. The first time especially. This time has been ...what?... almost 3 months? She may never be riding sound, but as long as she doesn't hurt that is ok.

[CarolU]

Nellie, I feel your pain and understand your delima. I went through this last year with Bien, who was not overweight at all. None the less, she was insulin resistant. Also have a friend going through this right now with her mare in Kansas. They put her mare in Epona shoes, and the difference overnight was day and night. BUT, the diet and medication issues still need to be resolved. Laminitis is a symptom, not a disease.

I used Peferct Hoofware on Bien, although hoof casts work just as well. I tried styrofoam and mat pads with duct tape, but they only dealt with the bottom of her feet. You have to stabilize the entire hoof.

I got TONS of advice, very little of it helpful. What worked for me was putting her in deep shavings on stall rest and bute until the pain lessened enough to start handwalking her. The hoof casts did this overnight, so your shoes might do the same thing. Then I handwalked her 1 mile every day. The horse doesn't get any blood supply in their foot standing still, they need to move. They can't move safely if the foot isn't stabilized.

Then you need to address diet and get her off EVERY drop of sugar you can. No grain, grass, pellets, cookies, ANYTHING, and weigh and soak her hay. Buy a hay net and put 6 lbs in, then put the hay/net in a tub and soak for 30 minutes. Then take it out of the water, drain, and hang it for her to eat.

Finally, bloodwork. Pull a Glucose-Insulin ratio and an ACTH on her. Then address your results. Do NOT do a Dex-suppression test on her until you rule out Insulin Resistance. Just a note here, not all Labs charge the same. Ask your vet (he'll have to look up the procedure anyway, since ACTH requires special tubes) about the cost. I switched to the University of Michigan in Lansing, who ran the tests for 1/4 what AnTech was charging me.

Other then bute, which is a great anti-inflamatory, there isn't much you can do until you determine the cause in her metabolic system.

Good luck. Hang in there. You can save her. Her rads don't look terribly bad.

[pnalley]

I would add one thing to what Carol said. When bedding a horse that is very sore, you can also use peat moss (from the places you buy yard plants). It comes in square plastic, takes abut 2 to do a 12 by 12 stall. It is the softest bedding we have found that is affordable.It stinks when you first open it, buy the smell goes away.

Hopefully Linda can get pix for you. Our filly just had the right sized shoe nailed on back wards, with the heal opening toward the front. It works like an egg bar shoe, but the front is open and increases break over. The closed back supports the heal area.

[Linda Y]

The best thing I used for bedding for a foundered horse is sand. Lots of deep sand. It allows the horse a soft footing, and lets them put the toe front down to stand which relieves a lot of pain.

[Linda Y]

Here are the photos I think you were asking for. If you need a clean foot, or one on a hard surface, I can redo them tonight. Just let me know!

[pnalley]

Sand also forms to the shape of the foot and provide gentle suppot with every step

[movo]

I would suggest talking to Keith Seeley and send him the pictures/x-rays.

There is a lot that can be done and I have seen even sinkers come back up, but it takes a dedicated owner-farrier-vet team.

In general when I have seen these horses, they are wearing "slippers", but not shoes. Apparently, the shoes often just give the coffin bone an opportunity for no resistance, so it can rotate farther. The heels are trimmed constantly to keep the coffin bone from having room to rotate down any further and to get it to go back up. The owner can be taught to do this constant trimming/adjusting. But, I am only an onlooker, and I probably only have enough knowledge to be dangerous at this point. You should talk to the experts.

http://keithseeley.com/Founder.htm

Also, you might find that a 2 x 6 board positioned at an appropriate hieght, across one corner of the stall, and padded with carpeting or something, will become a place that the horse can sit/lean his butt on. That takes a lot of pressure off the front feet and eliminates the need for him to lie down so much. This in turn can prevent the "bed-sores" so common in the foundered horses.

[DSDECKERT]

My mare foundered in October of 2008, and her rotation is worse than yours. Hang in there, she should be fine. Bianca is fine now, but I am careful about who rides her - she's also over 20 and arthritic though.

We use Natural Balance shoes and gel pads on her

http://www.horseshoesandtools.com/naturalbalancealuminumshoes.aspx

Good luck!

[nellie99]

Right now I am thinking she is going to abscess, which I know is very, very painful until it ruptures. Otherwise, I don't know if she's rotated any more. I really enjoyed reading on Keith Seeley's website, thanks for that link. She is so good about all this, I thank God that she is a sensible and easy going mare.

[Terry Wallace]

How much lameness is your mare showing? She definitley has rotation..but it is "slight". It is most certainly "cureable"...usually takes about a year (sometimes a little less) for all damage to grow out. Are her feet "hot"? Is her pulse throbbing on the back of and under her fetlock?

I have worked on horses just like this and they have come out of it fine. No sand or peat moss or any bedding will do the same consistant and constant job as construction styrofoam will. That is the blue colored styrofoam used to make construction forms, and not hobby type styrofoam.

We tape it on with duct tape. The horse will smash it down into a supportive sole conformed to the hoof.
It will last a few days before re-taping is needed. For the first week styrofoam is what the horse stands on before any shoes are applied. The styrofoam gives support to the coffin bone and helps keep it aligned as well as keep it from sinking.

Bute twice a day for a week has been the protochol...any more than that is too risky for the gut. Usually..after one week in styrofoam and on Bute...the horse is much more comfortable and then we shoe them. Nothing wrong with backward shoes...however...regular shoes and pads are what we do most in a mild founder case (which is what this looks like to me from your x-rays). Tip back the toes for quick breakover, put the shoe "back" a few degrees and reshoe every 4 weeks.

You don't need an episode of colic to preceed a bout with laminitis. Pure concussion can do it...too much hard surface on feet (A.K.A. "road founder"/concussion founder), stress, standing in muddy pastures, etc... many things besides "diet" can cause laminitis.
I/R horses are very prone to repeated bouts of laminitis.
I'm currently working on an I/R Paso Fino mare who has bouts appx twice a year. Since that mare has lost about 100 pounds..she is doing much better(recovering faster).

[nellie99]

Terry, she is gimpy, but better. Her feet are not hot, and haven't been, and I've had a hard time finding a pulse, so I guess that is good. She is getting bute, plus Dexamethazone (spelling). She also is set in clay mud to soak 1/2 hour twice a day. She's improving. Which is a relief to us both!