Did I do the right thing?

[Heidi]

Since winter has come upon us, I am keeping the north barn door closed and walk through the pasture/corral to Q's barn. This means she has access to approach me closely. If she follows me too closely, I had been doing the chicken-arm-flap and she would back off and give me room.

Today, I guess I wasn't walking fast enough for her (so she could get her pellets) and she snaked her head at me. Her ears were 'back', but not 'pinned' flat to her head. Still, I didn't like the look of her snake-y gesture so along with my chicken-flap, I took an aggressive step towards her with a stern look on my face and a sharp "No!" She immediately whirled around and let fly with both hinds! Her hind hooves were at least 5' away, but I felt that was too close.

So, I went to the barn but did not get her pellets. I picked up the manure fork to clean her corral... and the longe whip. When she approached me I waved the LW along the ground between us and she stopped. I continued walking away and she again began to approach, but quicker and to the side, so I slapped the ground with the whip and she whirled to kick again and when she did I cracked her a good one on her hip/rump just as she kicked.

She threw her head up and pursed her lips tight and ran to a corner to stop and watch me. I talked soothingly to her and then turned and continued away to clean her corral of poops. I could hear her galloping toward me and I turned and chicken flapped and she sheared off with a kick thrown in my direction. I cracked the whip sharply, no contact with her.

I could tell she was irritated at the change in the routine. She continued to gallop around and each time she tried to come close I waved her off by slapping the ground with the LW. When she finally stopped, she let me approach and flip the LW around and over her.

I finished cleaning her corral and put the fork away but have brought the LW up to the house and will continue to carry it with me when I go through her corral. She did not get her pellets. I will go out again in a few hours and see how her attitude is.

Did I do the above correctly? If not, what should I have done differently?

My plans are to step up our groundwork, as it seems she is slacking off and becoming disrespectful. She has always been "kicky". Not neccessarily at people, but when she farts around by herself she'll run, buck and jump and when she stops she'll usually kick out one back hoof. Sort of like a "Ha! So there, see how tough I am?!" She is also accurate at running past the basketball and giving it a kick and kicking the basketball when it is bounced towards her. I just do not like her directing kicks towards people.

Any suggestions and advice about how to deter this behavior will be considered and appreciated.
Heidi

[CarolU]

Heidi, what you are seeing is some left brained disrespect, the smack when she kicked her heels at you was exactly the right thing to do. What you still need to do are teach her approach and stop cues. That way you have a way to signal her to approach respectfully, and a signal to have her stop at least 3 feet away from you (3 feet is my rule). Then you walk into her space NEVER the other way around.

Teach both with a long lead rope on. Start by walking backwards and signal her to come to you (use whatever signal you want to use, I bend towards them). Then draw her towards you, smile. Have her follow you until you see her look confident that she knows that is what you want. Then stop and give her the stop cue. I hold up my hand like a traffic cop. She won't stop at first, but snap the rope, hold the lunge whip sideways, whatever it takes to get her to stop, then make her stand stopped until she again looks confident that she knows that's what you want (she may blink, lower her head, lick her lips or similar). Then give her the come cue again and repeat again and again until she comes toward you with JUST the cue and stops with just the raised hand.

Then turn and walk away from her leading her, and stop and use the stop cue. Be consistent, always use the stop cue, always stop her at least 3 feet from you, and always walk into HER space, not the other way around.

You can eventually add more space to your stop cue, so she stops on the lunge line when you raise your hand.

Then when she bounds toward you, you can tell her stop, and reward her with the 'come to me' cue, when she's good.

Hope this helps. I should tell you this is ALWAYS a lesson with young horses, nothing new with Q here. Just important that you establish the rules now.

Oh yeah, the snake head thing is her tossing her head at you, telling you she's impatient with your tardiness. I wouldn't worry about it...I like a little attitude in a horse...just make sure she expresses it away from you. The kicking of the heels at you is altogether different. Don't ever allow it and always correct it just like you did.

[CarolU]

One other thing Heidi, you (with the lead rope on) should also train her to move her hips away from you. Parelli calls it "hide the hiney", Anderson calls it something else, doesn't mater what you call it, the important thing is to teach the horse to move their hind end AWAY from you when you look at it.

You can do it with your lunge whip hitting the ground or a swinging lead rope end, but drive her hind end away from you - at first pulling her head towards you and clicking so she knows you're asking for movement - but always (at least until she stops kicking) keep some control on her front end so you can pull it towards you if she shows ANY indication of turning her hind end TOWARDS you and kicking. Do both sides, use only as much body language and swinging rope as takes to get her to move her butt away and face you. Gradually reduce your swing and language as she learns the cue. Eventually you'll only have to glare at her butt and she'll put it behind her and face you.

This is an important safety lesson, especially with a kick-artist as Q appears to be!

[Heidi]

I think THAT is what I needed to hear. Will put Operation: Ground Manners to work with a halter and lead rope in hand...

A question...after I've gotten her to disengage her hindquarters (is that the same thing as hide-the-hiney?) and she is responding nicely, can I approach her from the side with a long, loose lead rope and take an aggressive step towards her rear and tug her head towards me to move her hindquarters away...?...I would like to be able to get the same response with (and without) the lead rope connecting us so when I am in her pasture I can get her to move her butt away without her tossing a kick at me.

Working on this particular method, is that the end goal and can I achieve it?
Heidi

[Trail Rider]

The only thing that I would disagree with is talking soothingly to her after you corrected her. It gives a mixed signal. I think you should correct her instantly and then forget it. I would not try and make up to her after the correction. Just go on about your business.

I also do not believe it a good idea to be in a pasture interacting with a green horse without some sort of restraint. They are too unpreditable and you have no way to correct bad behavior if you can not control their movement. After saying that I have to admit that I frequently do go into the pasture with my colt without any halter on him. I guess it is a case of do as I say and not as I do. :D

[PASOFAN]

My chico tried to barrel kick me, as I call it, 2 times. I went after him and yes a good smack on the butt did good. I think you did the right thing too. That is a dangerouse situation I am lucky my guy didnt take me out... I make him work when bad, he hates to round pen..lol, when good he gets a rub on the head.

You should encourage good behavior, not the bad, so I give him a rub on his head to say "yes that was right". When bad he works and is uncomfortable.. That is what I do anyway.. Works for me.

Good luck!! :D

[Heidi]

The only thing that I would disagree with is talking soothingly to her after you corrected her. It gives a mixed signal. I think you should correct her instantly and then forget it. I would not try and make up to her after the correction. Just go on about your business.
Well, I didn't get all mushy-mushy. When she stopped in the corner, I spoke quietly, but told her: "You'll get more of the same with that attitude, now calm down." I do interact with her loose in the corral, but that is usually with tarps or plastic bags and such. When I clean her corral she is usually eating her pellets and that keeps her busy and out of my hair...but she got no pellets today!
I am thinking of working her in the mornings. ..and I'm thinking I'll need to wait until after her pellets are fed to keep her from getting anxious about her feed and when she's going to get it. If I wait until she's done, I can clean the pen and groom her while she is eating and then we can have a short lesson. 15 minutes or so every day, or should I try every other day at first?
Heidi

[GeorgeGuns]

Hmmm. talking soothingly and making up to them can be two very different things. The soothing should obviously happen after the horses has exhibited the desired behavior - this includes getting away from you, even if its in a huff at which time just going neutral is enough sweet-talk.

Heidi I have to admit, I had a nice chuckle reading your post. It was picture perfect, you did just the right things. Keep up the good work!

[CarolU]

Heidi, I wouldn't work with a time table...work her until you see a positive change. This may take 15-minutes, or it may take an hour. But don't quit until you get a change in behavior. If you make a habit of 15 minute workouts, one day you're going to ask for 20 and she's going to balk...put your watch away.

I would also work her daily. You have a lot groundwork to do before she goes under saddle. Once you see some positive changes you can slow down, but I would work her every chance you get until she's 'perfect.'...

As for your other question, if you teach her hind quater yields every day for a week or so, until she is doing them easily with no pulling on the rope...then one day try it without the halter on. In fact, teach her front end yielding, to back away, to drive frontwards, sidepass, etc, all from the ground. If you do this often enough and consistently enough you WILL be able to do it at liberty with no tack at all. That Heidi, is "Dancing with Horses"

[Heidi]

"Dancing with Horses"
I just read that book from my library!

I do not live my life by the clock (much to the chagrin of my husband) so I won't worry about how long or short our sessions are, but I think I will do something with her everyday. Even if it is raining, we can still do small things in the stall.
Always end on a good note, right?
Heidi

[cowboy ed]

heidi, you are getting the hang of it. a little time every day is a good thing if you can do it. i have yet to see many horses that i would call "overtrained". how old is your horse?

[Heidi]

She is about 30 months. She will be 3 years old June/9/2006.

When she got here 11 months ago, she looked like a baby. Late this summer she really matured into a beautiful young horse. She still acts like a baby at times, but is friendly, interested and curious for the most part.
She loved our sessions with the plastic bag and the tarp. Each took her less than 10-15 minutes before she was comfortable with them flapping around her. The tarp is canvas, about 8'x12', and she lets me drag it around her feet, under her belly, over her back and is getting better about putting it over her head/eyes.
One thing I have not encountered yet, is resistance. I know it will come, and I hope I handle it well when it does. So far, all of our exercises have been "fun" for her. I'd like to keep them that way so she doesn't get sour over 'work'.
Heidi
Q's first day here in Georgia. 12/2004
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/aa.jpg
Q in early fall. 09/2005
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/78SilvAnniv/ji.jpg

[CarolU]

Good, if you have that book, go about to page 70 (??) where it talks about zones and zone training. The 'stop' and stand I described above is in that book (the cues are my own, but the theory is from there).

"end on a good note" is a good principle. "Never stop with resistence" is a better one. When a horse is bracing, hold right there until they relax. Relese the second they relax and they learn to relax. If you release on a brace, they learn to brace. The same holds true for emotions. If you stop when they're acting retarded, you teach them to act retarded. If you make them deal with their emotions and RELAX and then stop, you teach them not to get emotional. I do have an exception to this..if the horse is having a particularly hard time with something new, I will frequently stop and do something they are good at, so we can end on a good note, and come back to the problem the next day. You'll be surprises how easily you can solve problems this way, when you again approach it and you're both relaxed.

Heidi, training your own horse is one of the most rewarding things you can do (at least I think so). Enjoy what you're doing, take the time to read and study and do it right. Don't hesitiate to ask if you have problems...sometimes even a change in body language can make something work.

:-)

[Trail Rider]

Heidi, what I was trying to say is not to apologize to your horse or feel guilty for handing out discipline. Just do what needs to be done as quickly as possible and then move on. Just move on safely.

Q is a very nice looking horse, and I do like buckskins.

[Heidi]

I understand what you're saying, Larry. I do, and I don't, feel bad for reprimanding a horse (or any other thing). I don't feel bad when I have to discipline her..what I feel bad about is having to explain to someone who may have seen what I was doing and they thought it was cruel...it IS a safety issue. Horses are very large and can do a lot of harm without meaning to. It is my responsibility as the owner of a young horse to lessen those risks whenever I can.
Heidi

[Bonnie LR]

Personal opinion? You are doing an excellent job and you and Q are lucky to have each other. I love 'Dancing with Horses'. My gelding and my DOGS [which are large] have been taught with those methods, lol.

[CarolU]

There is one thing I want to add about daily training. These are very intelligent horses and they learn quicly - and get bored almost as quickly. I try to work new things 3 times and 3 times only. Let the horse have a success, even if it is a small one, and move on to something else. I stick to my rule of 3's the whole time a horse is learning. I have friends who are more AR then I am (I know, hard to imagine ;-) ) that will keep working one thing for an hour or more trying to perfect it. I think that drives a horse, especially an intelligent horse, crazy. And once the horse knows something, I may only work it once...once through the 7 games, once throught the backthrough, once through the gate, once sidepass both directions without a fence, etc. And then, off to do something THEY like, like trail riding or I had a horse that loved to run.

I try to add challenges to your workouts, add objects, music, step up the pace, something to make it more interesting.