hoot angle

[pasogalinbama]

i have a 15 hand paso mare, that was trimmed at 52 degrees, now she trots like a yard dog. her slow corto is ok but the middle speed is rough, she was a little rough before, but now she will beat you brains out. what would be the best degree to trim at,

[GeorgeGuns]

Heel function and flares dictate angle or lack thereof.
When tools are used to match the toe angle to the pastern or shoulder, IF the flares are not addressed and the heel at the proper height for that hoof, then its going to be incorrect.
Heel wall should be about 1/16 inch above live sole level. When the heel is in full function, it actually pushes up on the joint beween the coffin and pastern bone and sets the angle right where it needs to be, assuming there is good frog.

Flares need to be reduced from above so the wall is all on the same plane from the hairline to the ground. The wall needs to be rolled - if the whiteline is stretched roll through it, if not stretched roll just to it. Less roll at the quarters, and knock the corner of the newly trimmed heels.

If you have a well gaited paso that otherwise has had healthy hooves, this will get you gait I can just about guarantee. AND it will put the angles right smack where they belong.

[pasogalinbama]

Coreen sounds good but it just went over my head, i have a new farrier that is into the balanced trim, ok but he is not a paso farrier, this horse has had long toes had the feet of a horse that has been foundered at one time. she is not lame and has not in the year i have had her, he trimed her and it looks good, but she now has a choppy gait, worse the beforei had hope it would be better. going to try and get pictures of her feet and her in gait, i love this horse she is a great trail horse, but when i ride with the walkers she just about kills me trying to keep up with them, a slow gait or just before she canters is ok, i know what a smooth paso is like and she is not one, thanks Connie

[Boyd R]

Ask the ferrier if he has got her to where he wants her to be. It some times takes several trimmings to get the hoof right. If he has the hoof to the point that he wants it then find a new ferrier. I have used 4 natural hoof ferriers. 2 of which were trained by the first. Those 3 are wonderful the 4th In My opinion had no clue. And if he had a reason for blocking (squaring off the Toe) my horses feet he did not say why.

[GeorgeGuns]

Connie that is good info in your second post. Consider that a horse with shoes or with long hooves - their sole is up off the ground so they can't feel the real cause of pain. Being a well gaited horse, she adjusted. Now, someone is trying to put her on the right track, and she has to re-adjust. Copy off my post, and share it with your farrier - he will understand it. There also may be some differences between the "balanced trim" and what is really helpful to a horse -a natural trim that agrees with everything the hoof tells us. There are a lot of ways to balance ahoof, and if the angles are actually being measured, that tells me that methods used may be what research has been showing for years to be a bit obsolete. Please refer your farrier to these resources:
www.hoofrehab.com
www.barefoothorse.com
Everything in there is quite applicable to hooves that are in trouble, especially to hooves in trouble! Your horse is telling you that something isn't right, and its quite likely very fixable.
I'm sorry I went over your head, visit those sites - go to barefoothorse.com first, Marjorie makes everything very easy to understand.
If a horse has had pathologies, yes, pointing them in the right direction can blow their gait for a time as they normalize the hoof. It takes time.
Another really excellent resource is Gene Ovnicek's DVD on the natural trim. Gene is a genius farrier, still shoes, and this may make more sense (by default) to a farrier. His website is www.edsshoofcare.com BTW, he doesn't use guages when he shoes, he reads the hoof, and shows how to do it very acurately. He gets amazing results, shod or bare.
Hope this helps!

[pasogalinbama]

Coreen thanks i guess i should had add all the details on the first post. great sites. i will show him you info thanks agian.
Connie

[cowboy ed]

connie, how much had you ridden this horse before this last hoof trim? how much have you ridden her after? if the horse was gaiting well before, then there will not usually be a lot of difference in the gait just because of a trim. it would have to be a horrible trim job to mess up a good gait.

tell us more about the horse and how much you have ridden her. also some info about your riding style and tack would be helpful.

[pasogalinbama]

i have ridden her a lot in the past year, she has never been lame and is not now, she has always be rough in the middle speed (largo) but it seems worse now ( she is trotting more) but her feet look a lot better, it may be something else, i am going to get someone to ride her so i can see what is going on, i have only ridden her twice since the last trim on trail rides, but we rode sat. with some walking horse people and they just flew through the trails, and she had to work hard to keep up with out cantering, so she was trotting had, i could not get her to smooth out she was pounding the ground so hard, it was beating me to death.
we trail ride a lot, i use an Abatta saddle, that fits her well, she is wide backed built like a tank. i use a stright bar paso bit with rollers. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/pasogalinbama/fff53616.jpg this was taken last year. i use a different saddle and bit.

[cowboy ed]

from your description, it sounds like she is breaking gait as she speeds up, which is pretty common. i dont think the trim has anything to do with it. if she travels with her head low and out,(like in the picture) then i think that has more to do with it.

[pasogalinbama]

she does tend to poke out her nose, i have to really get her punched up to get her butt under her and that is when she gaits the best. i don't know how to get a better head set any other way, she is so laid back. as you can see a 5 year old can ride her in the arena by herself. i would like her to have a more collected look but not be to hot.
Thanks

[GeorgeGuns]

I can tell from that photo (pretty mare!) that her heels are underslung. Your farrier needs to roll the bejazzes out of her toes, rasp the heels only until they have a better platoform to land on, and make sure her quarters are passive - they should be trimmed right to live sole level. Once her heels are better, she should regain her gait.
Also mention to him (he may already be aware of this) that as the heels start moving back in response to a good trim, the sole at the back of hte hoof may become very calloused - this is NORMAL and should be respected at all cost. Its the hoof's way of comepsating until the heel can take over the support and landing part of its job.
This process may take a few months, trim every 4 weeks, and if her soles are flat you may want to consider boots for a while til she gets her concavity back.
Just improving her breakover may take her from trot to trocha! Just be patient, this is fixable!

[pasogalinbama]

thanks Coreen. this was taken last year this is the old farrier's work or should i say he just kept trimming the way she was when is got her.
her feet do look a lot better then in the pic

[cowboy ed]

you can work on those feet all you want to. if you dont get that horse's head up and in, she wont gait any better than she is doing now. you said it yourself, when you get her head up, she works off her rear and moves better.

[pasogalinbama]

ok how do i get a good constant head set. i know that when we are on a rough trail she needs to use her head and to look where she is going. she is good at picking the best way over things. but i would like her to carry herself like a paso on the flat
i ride with a stright bar paso bit with rollers. she is light on the bit.
i was riding her with a jaqumia and she just pulled on it. but i only had a leather nose band and chin strap.
Thanks for your help
Connie

[cowboy ed]

connie, you should do lots of lateral flexion work with this mare in order to get her breaking at the poll. then, as you ride her, drive her forward with a bit of leg pressure, then lightly bump her with the bit to encourage her to bring her nose in a bit. this should shorten her stride and liven her feet up a bit. i think she has just gotten a bit lazy with you.

[GeorgeGuns]

Ed's got good points/advice. I'm looking again at the pic - if you are still using the same saddle, its a bit low in front, this will throw her on her forehand. You can use a front riser pad under there, valleyvet has one for western called a "reverse wedge' and its great. Plus, move the saddle back an inch or two, and the wedge will help keep it back.

Put her back in a jaquima to do the flexion stuff, you don't want to start that in the bit.

[CherylE]

Yep Correen, I agree completely with moving the saddle back....the problem here is so close to my mare it's freaky :D discovered one, that the toes were trimmed too short...she was pacing after the farrier left and two, that I was riding on her shoulders....got a bareback pad and slid it back and this horse will gait forever!!!! she is very slow gaited and was choppy when we tried to speed up.....I am still interested in the underslung heels....I can't quite put my finger on her feet...I think I'll have to send pics jsut for a clue.

great advice!!! You'll be amazed at how little tiny changes make an extreme difference....Keep looking for the right fix for your mare

[pasogalinbama]

i now use an abatta with round skirts. it fits her a lot better. i bought one of the paso saddles from Paso Fino Elegante love the saddle rides great but does not fit her wide back. i will try sliding the saddle back some and will put her back in the Jaquima, i will take some pics to show how she looks. thank
Connie