Atrevido del Ocho...the black horse...

[Terry Wallace]

Was this horse NOT a trocha champion in some other counrty? I could swear I read that in an ad about him... has anybody here seen the ad..I think it was from the late 1980's or early 1990's.... I have to leave for work and can't hunt it down right now... I had read that about him somewhere....how many Atrevido del Ochos are there????

[SandyMM]

He was born in 1988, Fuero de Concurso in Bogota in 1994 - but it doesn't in what gait...

[Terry Wallace]

I GOTTA find that ad..... I know I saw him billed as a champion trochador horse...just NOT in USA ads!!

I Googled but only got this:
Caballos Trochador y de trote y galope, por ser hermanos de origen y crianza. ... del ejemplar “Atrevido del 8”, caballo fuera de Concurso en Colombia y ...
www.damepaso.com.ve/articulos/ ferias/XIVFeriaMerida2004.html - 19k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

I have to go to work...but will try to find that ad page....

http://fedequinas.org/principal/index2.html

He was never a trocha stallion ... Atrevido I believe only traveled to the US where he was stalled at Rene San Juan's ranch here in Miami and is of course native to Colombia and now lives in Venezuela.

If you want to know more of Atrevido you can call Zarela Olsen owner of Capuchino which she used to own him as well..

[Bonnie M]

Terry - I copied this off of fedequines website. Shows him as fuera de concurso as a Colombian paso fino:


COLOMBIAN PASO FINO
Last updated July 4th, 2004

NAME REGISTRY RES ASSOCIATION CITY GENDER YEAR MICROCHIP
ATREVIDO DEL 8 115244 311 ASOCABA BOGOTA M 1994

He does not come up as begin F.C. on any of the other lists (Trote & Gallop, Trocha, and Pure Colombian Trocha).

[Terry Wallace]

Nito...YES he was a trochador champion...long before he was a fino champion.

[Pasogirlz]

Wouldn't Fedequinas have some record of that somewhere?

[Terry Wallace]

I don't know...I'm not familiar with Fed... I do know I have an ad sheet for him somewhere that says he was a trochador champion...

I did NOT mean he was registered with ATTA..I mean he was once a trocha champion way before he was a Fino horse...

I'm trying to find out how long it took to "train" him to Paso Fino....

[Pasogirlz]

I know, but Fedequinas keeps track of all the trocha and paso fino records in colombia. I would think if he was a champion trochador in Colombia, it would be in their records someplace....

[Terry Wallace]

I know someone at pasopedigree knew, but I can't access that BB just now.... I wish I could find that ad!

[CRIADERO J.R.]

I spoke to a friend that work for Fabio Ochoa during the time Atrevido was in Columbia, and he said that Atrevido was never a Trocha champion. I also have videos of Atrevido in Ochoa's farm when he was young and this horse was not a trocha horse. The article that you saw in Damapaso does not say that Atrevido was Trochador, I think you shoud read the article again. He was fuera de concurso in FINO in 1994. Nito and Bonnie gave you the right info on this horse.

thank you J.R.

Atrevido was the BEST paso fino in his time with the perfect gait except for his behavior.

[Fino1]

Glad to have this finally cleared up........I didn't think that sounded right.

[Lynn]

Terry you have to reregister to get back on pasopedigree something about a temp. site.

[Terry Wallace]

Sorry folks...but yes he was billed as a trochador champion... does Fedinq. onlty track ATTA registered horses as far as trocha champs go?
I wonder if they show, for example, that Oro Negro was a Trochador champion... seems as if its "don't ask don't tell" when it comes to trocha in Paso Finos...WHY is that?

[CRIADERO J.R.]

I have videos of this horse in Fabio Ochoa's backyard undersaddle when he was a colt and he was not in a trocha gait. The only one billing this horse as a trochador is you. BUT IF YOU want Atrevido to be a trochador? Then he is, but for the rest of us who know better he will allways be one of the true great PASOFINO horses of all times.

[Brigitte]

Terry, I think you have to come with proof... :confused

[Terry Wallace]

I'm working on it...most of you here that know me...KNOW I don't post "falsehoods"... I will try to get it over this weekend....

Can anybody tell me if Oro Negro shows up as a trocahdor champ on Fedinq. (sp)??

Still trying to find out if Fedinq. only tracks ATTA horses...where is the "Fed" site?

Criadero JR.... is it just totally unfathomable for you to understand that a horse can start out in a one modality, and end up in another?
This goes right along with horses who "can do it all"...like Don Danillo for example, like Oro Negro, like Simbolo JR....

BTW...my contact...also worked on the farm where Atrevido lived..so stand by...I am working on the "proof"...

Make no mistake...I am NOT saying he cannot Fino....I am NOT saying he is trochador only...I am saying he is yet another Paso that can do it all...
Understand?

[CRIADERO J.R.]

I give UP T.W. Atrevido was a TROCHADOR CHAMPION IN COLOMBIA and NOT a FUERA DE CONCURCO FINO HORSE IN 1994 IN BOGOTA, all of us including all those jugges are wrong. And if your point was to say that MOST COLOMBIA HORSES can do more than one gait, than you are 100% RIGHT ON. What's sad about this topic is that Atrevido del Ocho is one of the most documented and loved FINO HORSE IN HISTORY, but yet we have to go all this because one person believes she may have read an ad about Atrevido being A TROCHADOR CHAMPION this is so sad. By the way I'm done with this topic enough said.

[Fino1]

I give UP T.W. Atrevido was a TROCHADOR CHAMPION IN COLOMBIA and NOT a FUERA DE CONCURCO FINO HORSE IN 1994 IN BOGOTA, all of us including all those jugges are wrong. And if your point was to say that MOST COLOMBIA HORSES can do more than one gait, than you are 100% RIGHT ON. What's sad about this topic is that Atrevido del Ocho is one of the most documented and loved FINO HORSE IN HISTORY, but yet we have to go all this because one person believes she may have read an ad about Atrevido being A TROCHADOR CHAMPION this is so sad. By the way I'm done with this topic enough said.

THANK YOU!

Terry and Everyone else...

If you want a answer I'll ask today if I see Zarela at the show and get the facts straight from one of Atrevido's past owners.

[Terry Wallace]

Did she own him when he was at "La Margarita" or before? the time date seems to be 1990-1991 near as I can figure....
I do have a Colombian contact working on this for me...he too, knows this is true, he too has someone who worked with the horse.

I find it hard to believe, and somewhat dismaying...that the truth causes so much controversy..... why would you NOT want to know....why is this kind of thing swept under the rug?

Good grief..there is quite ENOUGH controversy in the breed without
letting people know just how good these horses can be...

Have you read about this over on Pasopedigree...the topic styarts with 'Opine Usted" and asks for opinions on the horse...

BTW.....NObody..including me...is saying he is NOT a Fino champion... from a breeder's perspective....I would want to KNOW he had these titles, if I were thinking of breeding to him.... ;-)

[CRIADERO J.R.]

T.W. I have good news for you I spoke to the man that handle and road ATREVIDO WHEN HE WAS A COLT and he told me that he showed Atrevido in a GRADE B SHOW as 3 year old colt in a trocha class and I believe that he beat the horse BARBADAS in the Champion ship(a brade b show is a smaller show or smaller city?) after that he was showed in fino classes. Have a good day T.W.

[CRIADERO J.R.]

T.W. I have good news for you I spoke to the man that handle and road ATREVIDO WHEN HE WAS A COLT and he told me that he showed Atrevido in a GRADE B SHOW as 3 year old colt in a trocha class and I believe that he beat the horse BARBADAS in the Champion ship(a grade b show is a smaller show or smaller city?) after that he was showed in fino classes. Have a good day T.W.

[Terry Wallace]

I thought he was about three years or so when this happened.
It does NOT make him a lesser horse IMO....

It makes him a BETTER horse that he could not only do that, but also train into Paso FINO.

I still have not been emailed the ad page.....

Again, if I were considering breeding to him...I would want to know what all he was capable of. It is no big secret that many Fino horses do fall to trocha when not in training, and sometimes even when they ARE in the show ring. I know I will never forget going to nationals, walking on the asphalt from the barn to the arena, myself & my husband, listening as a horse approached us from behind... I said to my husband..."Can you hear that"...He said ..."Yes, its trocha...perfect trocha"...and he was absolutely correct.... we turned around to see a VERY FAMOUS Fino stallion coming our way....

What I get sick and tired of hearing....is that these horses are "so perfect".
Nobody loves a good gaiting horse more than me, most of us really appreciate that "Perceptively equal gait"... on the flip side...I would not discard a horse because he could do it all, I would like to see horses who only trocha be allowed to register with ATTA. But just think of all the owners who would feel "betrayed" if a grading board were in place to do that.

What I get really tired of...are folks that will not accept that there is much trocha blood in this breed, it DOES exist, and you will not ever get it out...so how about a bit of truth in advertising.... that is all I am asking...
nothing could berate the breed more, than to present it as perfect, while concealing other traits..... that is misrepresentation...IMO.

[motorgypsy]

WOW - I missed this one for a while.

OK - back to physics and anatomy.

The even four beat paso fino gait is like balancing a pencil on the point. It is the point between the trot and the pace. If muscles get tired, if hoof angles are suddenly changed, if the terrain is rough and hilly, the horse cannot always balance that pencil on it's point. As a young horse matures it's muscles and skeleton are not the same as when the horse is mature so it is actually typical for them to be somewhat off gait at times in their development. IF you have a paso fino that as an adult and usually as a foal, that prefers the center point, the isochronal four beat, then they will go back to it unless asked to do otherwise. This is what we prefer to breed and breed to along with a lot of other things.

The trochador on the other hand is bred to prefer the more diagonal four beat as it's preferred gait but it is also bred for other characteristics. Being able to do a somewhat diagonal four beat and being a trochador are quite different.

And indeed many of our paso finos can do it all. All you have to do is teach them a cue for each ofl the gaits and they will do them without any further training. This is not training a gait, this is teaching a cue for a gait the horse does naturally and easily.

This is very helpful to us on endurance rides because the horse can rest for a minute or two in a different gait without stopping or slowing to a walk. They never cease to amaze us.

So Terry we agree that many can do it all and it doesn't make them less "paso fino" that they can. And it is good to know the gait tendencies when you breed because we have several that will go both diagonal and lateral when tired and one who only goes lateral. The second one we would be very careful not to breed to a diagonal tendency stallion.

The fun of going to Nationals is to see all these horses being worked and to be able to see this type of thing plus see tractability and disposition. Also one can see conformation flaws that are not necessarily apparent in photos and videos.

[Brigitte]

Oh wow..I didn't know. Pretty amazing though that he turned out so great

[Terry Wallace]

MG's ...do you realize that there have been MANY Paso Finos that start out trocha and later get "trained into" Paso Fino? They are NOT trochador bred ATTA horses...they trocha quite well... such as Oro Negro, or JR Simbolo, or others I could name... point being they are NOT all that different.

I have a gelding here who prefers trocha..he is not ATTA...he is Paso Fino.
He came from just as "big" named foundation Paso Finos also.
How would you rank Don Danillo? As trocha? As Paso Fino?

I do not see great "body build" differences in many of the ATTA or PFHA horses. JMO

[GeorgeGuns]

My $.02: Yes, many horses start trocha and are trained into paso fino. However many young horses are doing trocha just to balance under a rider with their immature bodies and perhaps they are growing into paso fino, not necessarily a training issue. a good trainer will know what he/she is working with (i hope, lol).

I too believe that all the gaits should be acknowlegded. When I explain Paso Finos and the gaits to people, I do try to include an explanation of trocha as an alternate either due to age, terrain, training level, genetics, saddle fit, hoof angles, or any combination of the above. It wuld be a lie and a disservice to new folks especially to not explain these things, if they expect such a perfect gait, they will never be satisfied and possibly pass by a perfectly good horse.

[CRIADERO J.R.]

T.W. what is and ATTA horse to you? And what does Atrevido have to do with the AMERICAN TROTE AND TROCHA ASSOCIATION?

[Terry Wallace]

Atrevido has nothing to do with ATTA.

My statement is that MANY Paso Finos start out performing trocha and then go on to gait. They are Paso Fino bred..and not ATTA registered.

Trocha, trote and galope are not gaits that only a Trochador horse can perform. Paso Finos are not precluded from being able to do any gait.

[srjames9]

Paso finos horses never start out as trocha horses. They maybe pasitrochados but not trocha. Pasitrochados is really a reference to the timing of the footfall. Trocha horses are very distinct in their footfall and it differs greatly from a pasitrochado horse.

I hope this makes sense.

Also a pasitrochadito baby is a fino horse with a resting gait. It is the muscle development as well as conditioning that affects the final gait style.

My preference is to have a 100 pasitrochadito babies in my fields than 1 gaited baby. My observation has been that gaited babies lose their gait when they are "reborn" under saddle. That usually means that they lose the gait they had and become lateral or diagonal whereas a pasitrichado baby only gets better and better into the final paso fino gait as time and conditioning begin to take eefect under the right hands.

James

[Terry Wallace]

Sorry James...but that is not true...I HAVE a trocha Paso Fino. We use him to test youth riders to see if they can tell the difference. He is a great test horse, and YES he has been in front of "gait specialists"...Lee Ziegler(deceased)... author of Easy Gaited Horses for one.

To say they "never" trocha, and its all Pasitrocha...is incorrect. ;-)

[srjames9]

Hello Terry,

You cannot have a trocha paso fino because that does not exist. If the horse is trocha then he is trocha and would fall into one of three other categories. The in between state between the diagonal and the square gait is pasitrochado.

And with all due respect, what did Lee Ziegler know about Colombian horses and more specifically about the differences between the modalities of Criollos Colombianos. And again with all due respect to you and Mr. Zeigler, I have never heard of him being mentioned as an authority on Colombian Horses. The Colombian stock comes in four modalities where the paso fino is just one of these modalities. The other three are trocha pura, trocha y gallope, trote y gallope.

It is with great disappointment (not with you directly) but with the US understanding of the differences between these modalities that exist in Colombia that are now beginning to surface here in the US. We need to educate ourselves better by watching videos of trocha pura and pasitrochado horses and speaking to the experts of these horses.

Imponente is a prefect case study. Watch his videos then watch a trocha pura and tell me if they are the same gait. They are not.

Imponente's gait or lack thereof is a timing issue whereas a trocha pura horse doesn't have footfall timing issues. The gait is distinct and clear for the diagonal.

Now I will concede and agree with you that trocha pura horses do have paso fino bloodlines and not vice versa.

I hope this makes sense.

Cheers,
james

[Candice Burger]

Very good discussion! Thanks, SRJames for the explanation. I do agree that learning the different modalities is a challenge. Overall, I agree with your statements.

Correct me about this, but from what I understand is the Paso Colombiano genetic history preserved the pasitrote in the paso breed and is considered very much "pure". However the trocha horse has had intentional outside introductions to encourage, enhance, and clarify the diagonal tendencies which ARE inherent in all paso breeds. It seems that the paso horses with the best response to this introduction have become the foundation of the modern Trochador. Not all pasos crossed with the Lusitanos produced the clarity--is that right? Another aspect I have found interesting is that even those horses like El Imponente DO respond to paso training. Perhaps not immediately, but the change is there just the same.

I purchased a video that show Trochador foals, broodmares, stallions and competitive horses to understand the differences. It is not easy for sure. However, the diagonalness, the footfall is very clearly different than that of a paso performing the pasitrote.

My problem with El Imponente, however, is that he lacks to true isochronic footfall to be considered a good example of paso fino. Yes, he does have the pedigree and I would even say most of the genetics. Yet, his expression is not correct. Understanding that he could compete as a trocha horse yet produce as a paso horse seems counterintuitive. My contention is with our standards for show class. I think, James, even the most ardent Paso Colombiano fan would have to admit that El Imponente does not display the quality of gait to make him champion or a high contender. Paso horses must exhibit a clear, concise footfall just like any other gaited breed. There is no compromise for this when showing. Yes, perhaps in time El Imponente will come into his own, but the question for many in the States is

If the horse must take that much time to find the paso gait that still lacks synchopation, is he really paso? How do we learn to separate out horses that truly lack the genotype to produce as a paso when the genotype for gait remains cloudy?

Personally, I see the advantages of perserving the genetic history of diagonalness and pasitrote in the paso breed. What I do not agree with is accepting this as an allowed gait expression when the class distinctly requires the paso fino gait. It is the same for horses that are too lateral--a weakness of the PR paso. In my opinion, it as important to the PPR history as pasitrote is to the COL. But I would not call a horse that is out of sync and lateral as correct even when the horse responds the the paso training (and they do). There is an artifact in their gait expression that says "diagonal" or "lateral" when they do finally go into paso.

Perhaps the complexity is the fact that pasos have all of this history within their genetic makeup and I think it is required in order to maintain the overall ability to gait. I have seen TOO MANY crosses where the footfall of the gait was the ONLY emphasis and see pacey/trotty horses lacking phenotype and any ability to respond to training to get into gait. So, I don't think is as easy as the "type to type" breeding methods would suggest because that approach is talking more about phenotype presuming that the modality of the breed is very strictly set. The FACT that paso finos have a history AND ability to walk, trot, pace, canter, gallop, and gait should be a hint that we may be very mistaken culling out those horses like El Imponente.

Would I breed to El Imponente? No. He does not offer what I desire because of his lack of clarity and inability to respond to training in what I consider a "reasonable" time, which is arbitrary. Yet, I believe he epitomizes many, many great qualities that ARE very paso. His phenotype is idea (unlike many others), his temperament, work ethic, active willingness, collection.....are some of the best of what a paso is.

[Privatetreaty]

My how things have changed. I don't think we would have had this discussion thirty years ago.

Candice, you were around back then as well, did you see a lot of horses do anything but gait, thirty years ago in Puerto Rico?


For those non believer's, sure a Paso can be trained to gait, on cue.
Even those that are not of Paso Fino origin do it, i.e. Saddlebreds and Morgans.

[motorgypsy]

If you read the gait description from thirty or more years ago, the Puerto Rican and I think Colombian paso fino (please correct me on the Colombian) were allowed to be a bit lateral but still four beat. This is no longer acceptable in the US show ring - so horses 30 years ago who were pacey were not in gait according to today's standards. But somehow pacey is OK to some people whereas trotty isn't. Well the mature paso fino should be neither pacey nor trotty but perform a gait that is exactly between the two. Whether the horse rests in pacey four beat or in trotty four beat may determine whether you breed to it or not, the horse may well still prefer the isochronal gait which is what we're striving for among other things of course.

It is pointless to do all the arguing about trocha and pacey gait being the product of a particular country. But it is important to know the natural gait of the adult horse so that you can breed for the gait and characteristics you prefer.

And the trochador is NOT the same as a paso fino horse who tends to go a bit diagonal when fatigued or young and not full grown. Get some videos and see for yourself. And also take a look at the Puerto Rican horses when they are fatigued and see how many will go pacey then or when pushed beyond their range of gait. Some do. Look at the offspring of a particular mare or stallion. If they don't produce what you like, don't breed them or to them.

And we do appreciate the clarification from our Colombian friend. Our Puerto Rican paso fino friends have told us that when a Puerto Rican paso fino does not gait well or have that special something to make it show worthy, it is simply not registered because why waste your money on a horse that won't do well?? So Colombia has three different modalities in their natives horses. All very useful information for those of us who want to breed the best possible paso fino.

Knowledge is power!

[Privatetreaty]

One of things that amazed me when I came back, was seeing Pasos in a pasture at a square trot. I'm telling you my jaw dropped open and right away I thought, somebody had been mixing the blood.

Thirty years ago, the only thing I personally saw were gaiting and pacing horses. But, I'm of the theory that the pace is not natural to Pasos, it typically comes from horses being pushed too far and if you'll observe, they usually come with a hard mouth.

One thing is for such, when a horse becomes locked into a pace, it is difficult to get them to gait again. Yet, it's easier to move a trocha horse to gait.

[Privatetreaty]

Motorgypsy,

Pacing has never been acceptable in the US show ring.
I'll tell you this, a really fast largo can fool some people.

In the late 1970's, PFOBA obtained approval to hold AHSA approved shows.
Another association, American Paso Fino registered and had shows as well.
But APF did not have the AHSA approval for their shows.

PFOBA then needed AHSA approved Judges and Stewarts.
In the beginning, these AHSA Judges were not Paso people, they came from other breeds.
Yep, in the very beginning some pacing Pasos did pin, but not for long.


APF disappeared over time.
PFOBA became PFHA.
AHSA became USEF.

[motorgypsy]

By the way Candice - great questions and analysis as always! I hope our Colombian friend will address them.

Our 7/8 PPR, superlargo mare square trots in the pasture sometimes - that big Arabian floating trot. But her gait is to die for and the faster her largo, the more even it gets rather than the reverse. If she ever goes slightly uneven it will be in a tight corto. She will gait in pasture also.

It is interesting to see the different modalities (rhythms) our guys do naturally. Our 50/50 mare (PPR X Col) has fabulous gait but when tired (we do endurance LD on her) she will do all sorts of strange gaits. I like to think of it like comparing CD's to vinyl records - one is analog and the other digital. Some horses have digital gait. They do three or four gaits and almost never anything else. Other horses seem to be able to do all sorts of combinations of gaits even though they have preferences. Ours will do a largo canter, a stepping pace, a broken trot, a pronk, a running walk, a square trot, a hard pace, what we think is a singlefoot largo (even but so much elevation you feel like only one foot touches at a time and the rest of the time the horse is in the air) and some that we can't even identify including a bone breaker gait. (No, not all or our paso finos do all of these but add them all up you get so many different ones). Quite amazing!

An endurance vet said that he didn't think paso finos would do well in endurance because the gait takes more energy. I not only don't agree but I think the paso finos who switch gaits when tired will do much better because they are able to rest some muscles while using others without having to slow down. Of course they have to have cardiovascular fitness but the smaller horses also dissipate heat better than larger horses and tend to be more agile. But that's another story!

We do have pure Colombian, PPR and mix paso finos by the way and love them all and bought them for gait and other characteristics, not because of their country of origin.

[Candice Burger]

I saw allot of very well bred paso horses that paced under saddle and were very lateral at liberty, which is the very reason why I started breeding to Colombian horses. I also saw very well bred PR horses with a "nice" gait that had lost some serious phenotypic qualities such as no posteriers, no brios, and no size. The practice of breeding best to best didn't work. There's more to paso fino than taking two good horses and thinking the outcome will be better. Just ask the last Profetiza gelding about that. Or the large farms that dump their geldings off at auctions. Some of our great stallions bred to great mares are making grade level horses.

If the footfall sequence and synchopation were the only factors that described paso fino, those horses that had the gait but not the quality phenotype would have been champions. They weren't and could never be.

The idea of PPR horse doing nothing but "gait" is a myth perpetuated by the PPR breeders of the day and embraced by the American importers during that time. The definition of a "lateral 4 beat gait" is from the PPR model. Note the word "lateral". In those days, the saying was that the only part of the horse that mattered was from the knees down. Meaning that gait was everything to the PPR. How unfortunate that the very emphasis of gait caused the breed to lose some other qualities that MUST be inherited in order to produce the "quality" in the gait.

I recall a comment made by someone in PR who said that there was a time where horses in PR that were quick, had the rear end impulsion, and good brios were disqualified because they were not exhibiting the "PR" paso qualities. How absurd! That was in the same time period of seeing pacey, poor phenotypes.

I'll iterate that I have seen maybe 3-4 horses that truly gaited naturally at liberty. The rest were lateral or diagonal in their tendencies. These horses that gaited quite well could not canter very well nor extend very well. So some athleticism is sacrificed for that precious phenotype. I'm not so sure that's a "good" thing either.

My last visit to PR I was quite relieved to see less paciness and more diagonal tendencies with the phenotype back to what I remembered. Interesting that the "best" producer on the island was propagating foals that prefered to trot rather than pace when under pressure on the line. I watched several that were "not for sale" because of their great qualities do nothing but trot on the line. And this among a group of serious PPR breeders and experts of the breed. They all agreed that the foals were very valuable.

So, things have changed. I still say therein lies one of the most important lessons for the rest of the paso world to listen and make it a life-time study. I am seeing some similar signs of problems in the COL breed now--they should be learning from PR mistakes. Too bad the competitive nature between the two countries doesn't encourage an exchange. I disagree with the philosophy that COL horses must be bred for the "trocha" to get the best gait. I say the pasitrote horses of paso breeding can provide that genes for this without introducing horses that may be diagonal but lack the paso genetic heritage. I think this idea of quickness lacking the phenotype of paso expression is a mistake. Just as in PR were the idea of gait being nothing but isochronic was a mistake. 'Course I could be mistaken.

For me, I am very excited about what has happened in PR because not only did the breed suffer through a very weak period, but they have regained their qualities back within their genetic pool and quite successfully. I have seen overall better quality and consistency that I have yet to see anywhere else today. And yes, they are less pacey and more diagonal going back to a true isochronic gait. Are they trocha? Not hardly, but I bet you can get one heck of a pasitrote (sobre trote). :smile:

I've seen a full COL mare win the grand national fino in an almost dead pace and others as well. To me this says there is more in common between to two breeds genetically than either may care to recognize. Yes there are differences in phenotype. Maybe it's more due to preference and emphasis of certain styles than a true genetic independence. I have no idea if it is true or not, but the appearance of lateral COL and diagonal PR may suggest there is something more than what we understand.

I agree with Helen, the days of seeing a pacey horse win in the show ring are over. The tolerance for "lateral 4 beat" are gone. Now we need to work on the tolerance of the diagonalness that is not any closer to 4 beat than the former without losing all the other qualities that makes it distinctively paso fino.

[Candice Burger]

One last thought in support of some of Terry's comments about gait. I hope SR James and other readers from the countries of origin take the time to read this.

There seems to be an overall presumption that just because the continental US has not had exposure to the paso breed until recently that there is no exposure or knowledge about "gait". That is totally incorrect. The USA has had the same exposure to gait as other countries. The USA has successfully developed gaited breeds with great abilities long before the Colombia ever conceived of the idea of a Trochador. As a matter of fact the USA offers more diversity than any country of origin for pasos has ever had. So we do offer some overall advantages about learning gait.

Saddlebred- a gaited breed that will walk, trot, canter, rack, and slow gait
TN Walking horse- a breed that walks, canters, and running walk
Racking horse- a horse that walks, canters, and racks
Foxtrotter- a horse that walks, canters, and foxtrots
Standarbred- a horse that races in a trot OR pace

Then there are the gaited Morgans, Arabians, Appaloosas, and Rocky Mountain horses. So I think this demonstrates that as a whole we have plenty exposure to gait.

I preceive the problem is more about the message from the countries of origin about gait than the actual gait itself. No offense intended here, but a newbie in the breed is a newbie no matter where they are born. For example, I've befriended a very intelligent, enthusiastic person who is Latino and is just learning about the paso breed. Oh, I've heard all the right lingo come out about "posteriors", "brios", yadda, yadda. But if really listening to nuances of the statements, the raw material of ignorance shows. Now if I didn't know better I might defer to these comments thinking that just because the person was born in a country that breeds pasos that they "know" better than me. But that just isn't so.

I've heard and read statements from others just like this person from countries like Colombia, Puerto Rico, Domincan Republic, etc. that are just as enthusiastic, thoughtful, and intelligent and they are still a newbie and they still show a lack of in-depth understanding about gait or paso. One doesn't learn gait nor paso just because you live in one of those countries. It takes years of learning from those that have a lifetime of direct involvement with breeding, training, etc. to pick up the little important pieces of information that makes one knowledgeable about the breed.

In my opinion the advantage of anyone living in a country of origin is that they have an opportunity to be exposed to what I described. Generations and generations of breeders that know nothing but paso. I envy that. However, the aspect of learning gait takes the same amount of dedication no matter where they were born or live today. I've had plenty of trainers from other gaited breeds pick out paso, trocha, pasitrote, or whatever with ease because their eye has been trained for footfall sequence, synchopation for years.

Now, if there is true sincerity of wanting to teach the general American audience specifically about paso, may I suggest a different approach? Maybe it's time for those that have the advantage of coming from some country that has developed the paso and knows only paso to perhaps learn about what is "gait" in the USA. I challenge any to go to a gaited breed show and tell me what is the difference between a rack and a running walk and how it is similar to the paso gait. My point is, that sometimes to get the message across one needs to understand where his audience is coming from. "Know thy enemy".

It is a false presumption to think that every person that gets involves with the paso breed in the USA only knows about trot. Perhaps the majority do, but not all. With that I would give this gal Lee Ziegler a try. Perhaps she gives a different perspective about gait; perhaps she gives the AMERICAN perspective about gait. Perhaps reading her thoughts and ideas might help the Latino community understand how to format the message about pasos in a way that us gringos will understand. It is not quite balanced to have one audience that knows only pasos interacting with another audience that knows every gaited breed except pasos and expect the communications to be understood by both parties. It is also presumptuous to think that everything there is to learn about a paso only resides in the countries of origin. Ask any paso trainer that's taken a Parelli, Ray Hunt, or John Lyons clinic.

Lee Ziegler wrote a book called "Easy-Gaited Horses" publised by Storey. I plan to read it because I have the same false security about pasos. This is my breed; the only breed I've ever had or intend to own. Yet, I continue to learn about "gait" outside of the paso world because the message is clear and generally from someone that has the knowledge to get their facts straight, "posteriors" and all.

[DSDECKERT]

I have a friend who had an Atrevido son for sale....looks like he's sold but there's a video of him:

http://www.stunningsteeds.com/saleslist.html

[srjames9]

Candice,

Great exposition!

Here are my opinions/answers to your questions:

Correct me about this, but from what I understand is the Paso Colombiano genetic history preserved the pasitrote in the paso breed and is considered very much "pure".

My understanding is that the TyG (both versions) were introduced by infusing Lusitano blood into the Colombian Stock. Don Danilo is the result of that cross. Don Danilo has had a profound influence on the Colombian stock of the different modalities. So yes and at the same time no as far as my understanding goes. The fad of breeding to Don Danilo stock came and went for the paso fino but not for the TyG horses as he is considered esential to the quality of the stock for 2 of the 4 modalities. That leaves the question of the trocha pura. So "pure" has a reference to the modality which is in discussion. For the paso fino or the trocha pura it is not "pure" but yet for the TyG modalities it is. And again same applies to the clarity within the gait for TyG but not for the remaining modalities.

And I agree with you that the individual response to gait with training is on a case by case basis b/c of environment, talent, disposition, etc. So When one horse can display its final gait with three months of training another may take years. And some never. The latter would be classified as trochadores and are encouraged to maintain their diagonal gait.

With Imponente (I am a huge fan of this horse) it is my belief that environment has had more influence on the final product than one might imagine. I believe that his training has perhaps not been the best albeit his trainers are considered the best in the industry. Yet even experts sometimes find themselves in situations that they themselves cannot explain in either words or work effort toward the final product. There are horses for trainers and trainers for types of horses.

Now Candice, you and I have been using two different terms and perhaps we are understanding each other or maybe we are two ships passing in the night. I call what Imponente exhibits as pasitrocha. Is that what you call a pasitrote?

Trote for me is equivalent to a trot in the literal translation and I apply it accordingly to the TyG (Trote y Gallope and Trocha y Gallope) Modalities yet not to the trocha horses and much less to the paso finos.

If the horse must take that much time to find the paso gait that still lacks synchopation, is he really paso? How do we learn to separate out horses that truly lack the genotype to produce as a paso when the genotype for gait remains cloudy?

This is a fundamental question for breeders. And we have a different tolerance for time and cloudiness. As I stated above, I believe we cannot blame our horses for taking less or more time in achieving their final gait. Imponente as a case study has revealed how much he has been impacted by the decisions of his management team.

So is imponente reproducing himself or not? In order to answer that question we need to understand his level of prepotency. I believe that there are very few stallions that are prepotent. And only seeing his offspring with the different types of mares he has coverd can we begin to understand whether or not he produces himself above the gentic half contributed by the mare to the resulting foal.

As far as the show circuit is concerned. IT is what it is and that is what should be reward. That said, I don't believe this topic should be clouded by what is an extremely subjective and controversial topic such as the show ring and its definitions of the "standard" for the breed is.

While I agree that the US has many different "gaited" breeds and experts in the "gaits" of these breeds, what makes them qualified to analyze and comment as experts on the paso colombiano horse.

Here is an example of what I trying to say... Just becasue I have a degree in computer science and have worked with UNIX does not make me an expert on a specific version of UNIX given there are over two dozen different flavors of the UNIX operating system. In order for me to explain the strengths and weaknesses of each flavor of UNIX, I have to have an indepth working knowledge of that flavor of UNIX. If this cannot be done with something that doesn't change except with version upgardes, what makes anyone think that it can be done with a living, breathing creature that can be easily affected by such things as waking up on the wrong side of the proverbial bed.

Again I state my opinions not to be polemic but to hopefully help in gaining a new perspective.

Cheers,
James

[Fuego]

You cannot have a trocha paso fino because that does not exist.
************************************************** ******
Then can someone please define Don Danilo? Was he not a Paso Fino that is given credit to successfully performing all modalities of Columian Paso gaits?

I myself have had a reg. PFHA gelding that was smooth but did not perform the actuall pf gait. It was close, and not easy to 'see' he wasn't in the pf gait, but while riding you could feel the "off timimg" of footfall and it was easy to hear the slight "off timing" of footfall going across the boards. This was this horse's natural gait, fully collected or not. Not a 'resting gait ' for him.

Can someone please explain this to me. I had ASSUMED he was performing the trocha gait ( it definately wasn't perfectly timed footfall like what I had come to know the pf gait was). It was a smoother ride then some of the foot slamming pf gaited horses I've ridden.

His 'papers' said he was a Paso Fino, but he did not perform the pf gait. So what was he? ( I know he is an outstanding horse regadless of what classification he recieves) But I'm hoping to learn...

[Candice Burger]

Dan Danilo was the offspring of a Paso Colombiano stallion with a Luistano mare. No he was not a paso! He was talented in that he was trained and able to perform the paso gait.

To clarify "modality" refers to a different footfall sequence NOT to paso gaits alone. There is no such thing as a fino modality or performance modality, etc. All of these are of ONE modality, the paso gait footfall sequence.

There are several modalities from Colombian horses and they are NOT all Paso Colombiano.

The modalities:
Paso Colombiano-a four beat isochronic gait
Trocha-a four beat gait with diagonal influences
Trote y Galopa- the two beat trot and four beat collected gallop

The confusion lies with the idea of Paso Colombiano or Paso Fino (if Puerto Rican).

Paso Colombiano and Paso Fino are breeds of paso. Pasos can and DO perform other modalities besides the four beat, isochronic paso gait. The BREED can peform both lateral and diagonal gaits, can canter, can gallop, some can trot, and some can pace. This is true of BOTH breeds.

It is a false assumption to believe that just because a horse has the breeding of a paso that it will be "natural" in gait. The breed is known for most but not all having the ability to perform a 4 beat isochronic gait under saddle.

I think there lies the confusion. Heredero, El Imponente, and many others that are paso breeding (mostly, but unfortunately Heredero has the modern "trochador" bloodlines), but the phenotypic expression of what we are calling "trocha" with the classic "tras" "tras" of the footfall. When Heredero gets tired he has a wonderful, low very trocha footfall. It is not pasitrote. El Imponente has been argued that he could compete and win as a "trochador" in Colombia--so confusing!!

Trocha, pasitrote, sobre trote (Puerto Rican diagonal gait) are related and very similar. I would dare say the same in modality. However, the expression are different and the genetics are different. One could argue that although the footfall sequence are the, because of the different "style" they are differen modalities. I prefer to think classically as having the same musical rhythm, they are the same. It is like saying paso, running walk, rack are the same modality, but the expression and genetics are different. The footfall sequence is the same but you cannot say what a racker performs is a paso gait and vice versa.

When someone says "Paso Colombiano" they are talking about both the modality and the pedigree as when someone says "Paso Fino". There are horses with "pure" pedigrees that prefer to trot or better suited in diagonal gaits. Remember the paso breed was founded mainly with Andalusian and Berber horses with a native type horse called the Jennet. The diagonal genetics are "in there" whether we encourage the expression through breeding or not. Every once in a while horses of "pure" breeding will get the diagonal genetics.

For those who want the technical reference and this may help understand it better.

"mode" a rhythmical scheme OR a form or manner of expression
"modal" of or relating to a musical mode
"modality" the quality or state of being modal b : a modal quality or attribute : form

The Colombian breeders are working diligently to remove the trochador horse and his trocha gait from the Paso Colombiano heritage. What we call "trocha" is probably "pasitrote" by old definition. Believe me, I have problems with it allot. What I have called "trocha" has been quite firmly corrected into "pasitrote". The only reason I can even begin to understand it is because I am very familiar with the concept of "sobre trote" in PR paso finos. There is no way that is "trocha".

What we are calling "trocha" horses is now a problem as a result of this focus on creating true "trochadors" at birth in Colombia. Horses that are genetically and phenotypically different and distinctive leaving behind the "pasitrote" or the softer "trocha" with the Paso Colombiano heritage.

[Fino1]

Candice,

Thanks, you always do such a great job of explaining.......

Judy and Chloe the Bengal, who at the moment, is stalking a sun beam.

[Kerry W]

Actually, Don Danilo was the son of Rey Cometa (Paso Fino) x La Danesa (Lusitano sire x Paso Fino dam), making Danilo 1/4 Lusitano. His preferred modality was the Trocha y Galope, and he was declared Fuera de Concurso in this modality. He produced many sons and daughters who were also declared Fuera de Concurso in their modalities (to date, I have only found F de C champions in the diagonal modalities, and none in the PF modalitiy). Offspring of those sons and daughters ARE in the bloodlines of PFHA registered horses. I've got some photos that I'll post under a separate thread a bit later.

Don Danilo was an incredible athlete, and was able to execute all four modalities very well.

I also found this description of the Trote and the Galope at usatta.org:

TROTE: A two-beat movement made of the alternate beat of successive diagonal legs, which produces a dry sound as the legs hit the ground in the following manner: tas tas tas tas.

GALOPE: A movement of diagonal steps executed in a three beat series: the first beat is executed by the impulse of one hind leg, a second beat is characterized by the landing of the opposite hind leg and its diagonal fore leg, a third beat marks the landing of the opposite foreleg from the one that initiated the three beat movement. The sound produced is: catorce, catorce, catorce, or one two, three, one two three, one two three.

On Atrevido...this "championship", if it was won at a Grado B show, would be similar to one of our smaller regional shows. If the maximum number of horses were there, that would average 4 horses per class. If he was 3, that would be a schooling class. Within 3 years, he was declared Fuera de Concurso in the Paso Fino modality...quite an accomplishment.

I personally do not feel comfortable assuming he had to be trained to execute the Paso Fino gait. Without knowing the horse personally, and without having seen him as a youngster, one can only speculate as to his natural abilities. If he were Championship Trocha material, I feel they'd have campaigned him as such...it would be much easier to simply develop his natural talents as a Trocha horse, than to train him into another modality, and to have him be so successful within a relatively short time. Trocha horses are very much valued in Colombia.

I do think it wise to look at the entire career of a horse, not simply one class at one show, especially a Grado B, where many are taken to gain ring experience...unless there is absolutely no improvement once the horse is finished. I do not consider a 3 year old to even be full grown, let alone finished. Look at what they've produced, not just their ribbons. ;-)

[motorgypsy]

Such GREAT information. Thanks so much to all of you.

Now how about a bit more analysis - "critical attributes" of pasitrote vs trocha vs sobre trote???

Here is what we have

- true trot - two diagonal feet hit the ground at the same time.

hard pace - two lateral feet hit the ground at the same time.

paso fino gait - each of the four feet hits the ground at equally timed intervals.

Now where in the spectrum of trot through paso fino gait does the trocha, pasitrote and sobre trote fall - closer to trot, closer to paso fino or are there other characteristics that distinguish them. Or can they be distringuished???

[Fuego]

Such GREAT information. Thanks so much to all of you.

********************************************

yea, what MGS said ^^^^^^^^ :D

[Numael]

Este ejemplar de color negro criado por el sr Fabio Ochoa Restrepo es uno de los mejores representantes del paso fino es fuera de concurso con mas de 15 ferias ganadas en colombia ahora esta en Venezuela prestando sus servicios como reproductor

[Pasogirlz]

Basic translation:
This copy of black color raised by Mr. Fabio Ochoa Restrepo is one of the best representatives of the Paso Fino, it is Fuera de Concurso with more than 15 fairs gained in colombia now this one in Venezuela giving his services as breeding animal

[pasohappy]

:shock: Wow you guys boggle my mind, I have no idea what you are talking about, I sure would like to see pictures of the different foot falls, can somebody do that on here? That would be great. YOu all sure do know your paso finos.

[pasopleasure]

I have an Atrevido del Ocho grandson out of a Simbolo de Besilu daughter. (by Plebeyo) Nice little black stallion. Gonna stay small. Turned out with the other colts, took him forever to learn to canter and gallop. All he could do was gait correctly for the show ring to start with. From the day he was born. Was really comical watching him learn to be a horse and run and play. He kinda hiccuped around at first trying to lope. His natural gait is FINO FINO FINO....but too slow covering ground to keep up. SO he had to learn to run.
He still isn't good at it and he is small. BUt really pretty to watch gaiting around the pasture. IN FINO. Naturally. 2years old now. It will be interesting to see what happens as he comes under saddle. All manner of wierd gaits happen as a horse adjusts to a humans weight. Just gotta give them time.

[Numael]

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7516/atrevidodel8xa3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-1725177284599436795

Para mí Atrevido del 8 es el mejor caballo que he conocido en mi vida, en el video que les comparto no aparece trabajando al 100% como lo vi en algunas ocasiones, de veras que era maravilloso verlo trabajar, no habia similar era tan o mejor que ver a joyero III

[Pasogirlz]

Wow, I'd never seen video of him before. Now THAT is Paso Fino. 8-) Thanks for sharing the photo also.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

[
Para mí Atrevido del 8 es el mejor caballo que he conocido en mi vida, en el video que les comparto no aparece trabajando al 100% como lo vi en algunas ocasiones, de veras que era maravilloso verlo trabajar, no habia similar era tan o mejor que ver a joyero III


Translation:

For me Atrevido del 8 is the best horse I ever known in my live, In this video that I am sharing, he does not seem to be working at his 100%, like I have seen him in other ocasions, truly he was out of this world to see him work, there was no similar, it was the same or better than to see Joyero III.