FREE FILLY

[GeorgeGuns]

IF you can get her halter back on.
Sherry you were right. Most horses, the more you halter them the better they get. Food bribes work, patience works, advance and retreat works. Pesquisa? nnnnOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo. each time has been worse and worse. I have just spent the past month and a half with her twice a day at her feed bucket, inching closer and closer to getting that darned thing back on her. Prior to this route it was clicker training - she would get so far and them leave. Holding it as if fastened but not, til she is calm. Fastened a few times, but getting it UN fastened is suicide. Yesterday, I got it fastened and she was quite good. I was so proud I left it on and got pics. I figured, on in the morning, off at night (I am terrified of leaving it on for fear of her getting stuck - yes its a breakaway, cheap leather crown piece). So last night I got it off, and even a few times back on. This morning the little witch went hunger strike on me. I've tried neck rope - that was a total freakin disaster.
She has not been vaccinated - tried getting a lead on her and she nearly killed herself
She has not been wormed for 3 months - last time I got her while she was laying down and hd to sit on her
She is not registered - you just try to pull hairs from her!!
She has not had hoofcare - a major sin on this farm and her hooves are deplorable at this point.
She is not weaned - I won't wean a baby I can't even get a halter on if she goes ballistic, and this one is quite likely to go right through a fence.
8 months old and she is DOOMED. I have NO place on this farm for a horse like this, except a hole in the ground!!!!!
Oh sure she is friendly - as long as I don't have anything in your hands I can touch her anywhere. Show her the halter and she freaks out. Poll pressure with it and she is downright dangerous. And she's BIG, its not like size genes were wasted on her - she is already 13 hands.
I'm sick of it, I've run right out of patience.
Anyone with suggestions is free to come demonstrate and get her the heck off my farm.
Yes I'm mad. Will it pass? dunno. Doubt it. She wants to hunger strike? Great, she can watch her mother eat.

[CarolU]

Take 10 deep breaths....LOL

Gosh, babies are FUN!!!! ROFL!

[GeorgeGuns]

:rofl
Ya know, her big brother had a halter phobia, more with getting it off than on, but he learned real fast, and he's sooooooooooo sweet. He's the reason I bred Domingo back to Bri, I thought gee if they turn out like this, I'm onto something!!! HAH! The only thing I can tell myself is that IF the little wench ever accepts the halter and lead, she's going to turn out fantastic.

10 deep breaths.. I'm getting dizzy.
Who knows, maybe watching her ma eat will make some sense to her.

[Carol Nelson]

When we start to halter break, we play "ropey" games...by taking a light cotton lead rope with no snap on it and just wrapping it and tossing it all over them and all around their heads. I also use lots of treats as rewards. Then I start with a soft cotton rope halter...by that time they think it's just a different version of the lead. I do a bit of yield to pressure work with that, and some light leading. By that time putting the nylon halter on them is nothing. Again, more treats!
I DON'T usually leave a halter on mine...using treats enforces them to be eager to put a halter on...most of mine come and put their own heads into the halter. If I do decide to leave a halter on one, (usually in the case of an injury where they need to be treated) I take a wide rubber band, loop it through the metal clasp and through itself, then I thread the end of the band through the hole in the halter, and tie a large knot in it. I secure it, and tuck in the ends and that way, should they get a hoof caught in the halter, they will simply break the rubber band and the halter will come off.

Also when working with my youngsters...I sing and talk to them constantly, just nonsensical stuff...but it calms them and they listen to me...I am never quiet when approaching them with the halter...too much like stalking! ;-)
One thing about our babies, is by the time we get to putting the halter on them...they already are coming to us in the pen every time we enter...eager to see what we have on our minds for playtime! :D

[Moniece Dickerson]

Does anyone live close enough to Coreen to beable to go spend some time and help her work with her filly?Coreen,surely you don't really want to give her away,you just want help with her right?I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time with her.I'm sure i'll be on from time to time frustrated with Rosa.Your friend,Moniece

What about tweasers you could hold in you hand just using your thumb and when you're petting her just quickly tweasing out what you could get,whould that be enough for registering?

[appyday]

STALL her...if you are serious...PM me...




PS I cant halter mine out of the stall...they lead..get weight taped every few days...stand tied even for farrier...get wormed every 2 weeks as per vet...but I cant halter them in the field...I feel your pain..good luck..

[Cindy]

I agree with STALL HER. And will raise you a WEAN HER. Wean her and put her in a stall. As long as she has Mom there, she has no reason whatsoever to care about you at all. Take Mom away and she will have more interest in having a different friend.

[moonrize]

Time to wean and make her depend on you instead of mama. Put her in a stall where she can't get hurt and then she stays until halter goes on and off easily. Keep working like you are and absolutely no feed until she gets the halter on. Give her plenty of hay, but NO FEED. Drastic brats call for drastic measures. Let her come to you for feed and rub the halter over her and start from the basics working up to getting it on. She will come around.

[Pam M]

My filly was a horrible little witch until about 1 1/2 days after I took her away from mom! She's also 8 mos. and now she's great. The separation thing did wonders for her attitude and made me like her a lot better also!

[GeorgeGuns]

Thanks guys. IF I can even get her in a stall, HAHAHAHA, the best place would be in the stall right next to her daddy. Next best would be the round pen - easier to get her into there.. then maybe into a stall from there. Maybe turn her big brother in the roundpen with her... gawd what a headache... At least he is quite reasonable! Except for this, the little B--- really is lovable.

[Abejita]

Get her in a stall.Use the mare to corner the little wench and get the halter on her with a catch rope. I have a few here if you want one they probably wont even go to her knees(if you have help will be easier.) Pull Domingo out and put her where they cannot see each other. Wean. Do not put her brother with her.Make her live alone (next to Bri is ok) Do you need help?

[DSDECKERT]

I agree with the above advice - you need to stall her and get her used to being handled..

other option is give her to Appyday!

[CarolU]

Yep...stall her, make getting haltered and led a condition to being let out, she'll start shoving her head in the halter.

Lead mom in stall, when she follows, close door. Corner and catch...take mom out.

[Linda Y]

I also agree with stall her and wean her. Make her depend on you for her company and food. Not mom, or even brother.
On another note...I had one that I gave away because from the day I got her you couldn't put a hand on her. She was an evil little pinto Paso filly. I told a lady if she could get her into her trailer, she could have her. She did get her in with ropes, much help and a stock trailer backed up to my roundpen, and spent MONTHS trying to halter her. She ended up giving her away, too, after she kicked her son.

[Fuego]

Coreen, you seem to be missing the point of putting her in the round pen or stall. The whole point here is to isolate her as much as possible from any other horses ( or any type of interaction with any animal other than YOU).

With you being her only source of interaction, she'll likely soon do ANYTHING you ask her to do, just to keep you close to her for company.
If she reverts to the old behavior once she's back in the herd, back into isolation.

With the exception of Dana's DragonQueen, I've always seen considerable changes within days of isolating a horse with similar 'problems'. And most of the horses I did this with had histories of serious abuse.

Just stay open to her and encourage her until she decides you are her ONLY option for contact with another life form.

Right now, she sees you( and treats you) as being totally insignifigant. You'll see a big change as soon as you become her whole world.

If you bred/raised her, I know she has no history of abuse. So once she finishes with her initial anxiety of being isolated, I bet you'll soon have a brand new 'very best' friend.

[Blameitonbrio]

I am glad to see this thread and guess what Coreen...you have company! :hug If I can manage to get the halter on Brio, he is fine (an angel even), but getting it on him is very difficult. We usually put feed in a bucket and and put the halter nosepiece into the bucket and then try to slip the halter on while he is munching. Three problems with our approach are 1) he's sharp and learned to grab a bite really quick and 2) it takes two people to do it and 3) he is big enough to hurt us while he is trying to escape! After reading this thread, we went out and tried again -- no success. So, he got plenty of timothy hay and water, but no TC tonight! We will see how it goes tomorrow.

As far as isolation, he has been separated from his sister for two weeks. They are in stalls next to each other though...does that count as isolation? I have noticed a difference in his willingness to let us scratch him since they were separated. Afterall, he has to get his loving somewhere! And he does love a good neck scratch!

[LynnG]

If worse comes to worse, get 2 extra handlers ..lead her and her mom into the stall. box the filly in between the wall and the mama...make it snug to the wall as possible towards the corner. If you have to put a towel over the filly's head do it so she can't see you........but if this doesn't work..have tranquilizer on hand...when she is boxed in tight between the wall, front handler with the halter in hand, stick her with tranqulizer in the rear. Wait until it takes effect....get the halter on......give her her shots the, hoof trimming, whatever is needed. I would leave a breakaway halter on her...until she learns to be handled better and accepts handling about the head and ears..will let you drape ropes around her neck and head.

I have a difficult one...and these are the measures I had to take with her initially. I did do clicker training with her also......can lead and lunge her now, but she still doesn't want her head messed with.....so its getting tied and the towel on the head works wonder if she can't actually see me..yes she is still far behind in her training. She'll be the last one I'll do as she still needs alot of foundation work..so when the others are trained and moved on..... this one will get full devotion from me. she can learn I know that much...just a slower learner.

[CarolU]

The point isn't really isolation, it is to make getting a halter on a condition of getting out of confinement. They usually develop a GREAT attitude about being caught when the reward is great enough.

The same can be done with sweet feed. Don't hide the halter though, start with the rope and rub his neck while he's eating, then gradually put it around him, anytime he moves away, let him go, but don't let him have anymore sweet feed until he comes back to the rope. Then start rubbing his head and cheeks with it, over his ears, etc. Once he is tolerant of the rope, do the same with the halter and when he finally puts his head in it, don't do it up...just in and out a lot of times, then through the buckle but not buckled a lot of times...always let him drift away if he wants to, but withhold his sweetfeed until he comes back for more halter training. Take your time and a couple sessions. Once he is standing fine for haltering make it a practice for awhile to catch him before feeding and then feed him. Take him for walks, things he likes. Make being caught FUN and pretty soon it no longer is an issue.

It helps US direct line thinkers to QUIT thinking the object is to put the halter on the horse...the object is to train the horse to come to the halter. Stop being so direct and remember you're building a long term relationship with your horse.

When Buddy got here, he was terrified of people and had been manhandled. I used this method and took 3 weeks to get him to trust me and train him to put his head in the halter - and he's almost impossible NOT to catch now. He WANTS to come out of the pasture and 'play' and earn cookies and carrots.

[LynnG]

Jeany ...try putting the leadrope over and around his neck first, snug it up, arm under the chin and other with the halter slip it onto the nose. Approach from the side to halet and not from the front.

You need a control factor to start with ... with the leadrope around the neck.....play with him with the rope first and be sure he is comfortable. Most all my horses I can lead with just a rope around their neck....but they are accepting of it too.

[Terry Wallace]

Either stall her...or build yourself a stock....OR both..I used to get horses like her all the time.... this CAN be fixed....

[Tami Pinell]

Gosh, reading this thread makes me want to go out right now in the dark and HUG my DRAFT horse, Ruby..... she is such a wonderful teacher. Put the kid in with her in a stall. Walk in with two halters, tell Ruby to stand and put hers on, she does, tell the kid to and if they do not Ruby slams them with her head until they just LOVE to put their halter on! Leading is the same - put the rope around Ruby's big neck and tell them to walk - kid acts up, Ruby slams them - I keep walking like nothing is happening..... tie them up and if kids does anything stupid - it gets a Ruby slam..... 20 minutes and the kid is thankful the human can't slam them and does what I want! Horses teach horses so much better than humans do!
I LOVE RUBY!!! <kiss, kiss, kiss>

BTW - your kid knows that doing what they are doing pisses you off and the little critter is laughing at you! Put it in a stall and piss it off.... take it's MOM away.

[GeorgeGuns]

Oh I gotta digest al this.
The reason I would put her bro in with her for just a few days is to help diminish stress of weaning. The last thing I need is a young horse not halter broke that is foundered, colicked, ulcered, or self mutilated! She forgets about mama, Rio goes back out and then its MY turn.

The other thing i have been tossing around is plain old fashioned round-penning. I once picked up a 4 year old pony that had had her halter changed twice in her life, no farrier, no shots, no nuthin cuz they couldn't catch her. I lured her into a paddock withher pasture buddy, threw the buddy out and went to work. 45 minutes later that pony was diving into my new halter, and 15 minutes after that we met Mr Trailer and she went right in with only one good bye glance... I also roundpenned Encantador before I weaned him, he wasn't the best led foal at that time. He wasn't prone to challenging fences though, and at 4 months was easy to do in my foaling pen. He's been my shadow ever since... much to my dismay sometimes!!!

I'll probably toss all this around and use a bit of what everyone has suggested. I'm also waiting on words of wisdom from C. Ed, apparently this filly is similar to one he had to do last year. In the meantime, the only real suffering is my ego!!! Poooooooooooor me. :-? And I probably ought to feed the stinker, keep her wieght up, she'd gonna need it!!!

[motorgypsy]

We used roundpen first for Brilliant for his blanket (yes we had worked on desensitizing him to stuff on his back but he just plain doesn't like it. Arwen spoiled us.) and he finally let us put it on him but he panicked at the last minute after it was on and ran Kyle down. This is why we went to the SQueeze system. You control the space, the blanket, the horse, the head and so on. And they can't run you down!

[Dianne]

Coreen.....please use ALL of the above advise...this horse is wrapping you around its little /big hoof and you are letting it :lol:
I am in the middle of retraining my dogs and using things I have learned from Ceasar Milanos sessions on TV (he is awesome btw) and I feel that often people humanise horses the same as they do dogs.......you have to be the lead dog/horse in this situation..totally

[Cindy]

Coreen, if you wean with another horse you then have to wean AGAIN from the other horse. Twice the weaning, twice the stress. And I gotta say, I have weaned a few foals in my time and have NEVER had one fall prone to any of the horrors you described from weaning. Now I have seen foals TOTALLY stressed because the owner thought it would be a good thing to wean gradually. Take the Mom out for a while every day and every day the foal's anxiety gets worse and worse until they are hurting themselves in the stall and bloody and are so traumatised that they are unaware that they hurt. Wean once, get it over with and handle this foal.

[CarolU]

I have to agree with Cindy. I live between two breeders. At the end of the summer, they take all the babies to one farm and all the moms to the other. You hear the babies crying for 1-2 days, but it doesn't last long and they get over it. They've never lost a foal. I think the only thing you should worry about is make sure the stall is such that she can't climb anything and get hung up...smooth stall walls. Then let her have it out.

You know, one day she will HAVE to learn that she is not in control. Most foals go through this and have a total tantrum just like a human. Once they are through that and it doesn't work, they accept their circumstances.

Give yourself a Valium and get that girl isolated and weaned. NOW, before she is any larger.

[Beth Worden]

If ALL else fails. GO in the house, get the 12 guage go out and shoot her. Then walk slowly up, pick up her head and gently slip the halter over her nose. Works every time.

[Barbwire]

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/20.gif http://bestsmileys.com/lol/20.gif http://bestsmileys.com/lol/20.gif http://bestsmileys.com/lol/20.gif http://bestsmileys.com/lol/20.gif

[motorgypsy]

We one of those gradual weaning people but we don't do it the way Cindy describe. OUCH!!!

First of all we move mom and leave the foal in with the adults she's grown up with. We start taking mom out for walks and things and the foal may call but it' usually no big deal. We then wean at about six months but it depends on the foal and the mom to opposite sides of roundpen panels we have between the two pastures so they can touch noses, then go about their business. They don't holler or anything. They just check in now and then at the fence. In a few weeks we put up a hot wire about six feet away from the the fence on each side for further separation but by that time they're very independent. We then little by little reduce the number of horses the youngster is in with until it's down to one or two and in our case we actually moved mom off site for a while. Then it's just a matter of additional handling and the amount of time you have to spend on them. We have a roundpen between the two pastures so we lure the youngsters into the round pen and play with them by themselves a bit - teach them to yield to pressure and so on. Give lots of treats for proper behavior, start clicker and so on. They're very relaxed with us. They just each have their little likes and dislikes and working on them does take time.

One study done on stress levels on weaned foals indicated that they are far less stressed if they are weaned to one or more adults that they already know. The highest stress levels were with more than one foal being together with no adults. Undoubtedly they feed off each other's fear. A foal in a stall next to an adult it knows is far better than in a paddock without any adult with other foals. They need adults for security.

[appyday]

Boy everyone here is sooooooooooo much nicer then I....I am from the old school...Get ur done...I put the baby in the stall..take the mother out...SEE ya later..in another field on another part of the farm..

[Cindy]

Or on another farm. Even better. As far away as possible. Bing, bang, boom and it's done.

[Carol Nelson]

I'm more with the motorgypsies...I like things done with the least amount of stress possible.
I simply move mama to an adjacent pen...little by little...they can see each other and still sniff noses... first I separate them for feedings, then leave mama in her own pen a little longer and a little longer...and then eventually if I have another horse I can put with the baby, I do that, and simply move mama farther and farther away.
Seems easiest on them....AND on me....and you know, by the time I usually do that, mama's pretty ready to get baby off anyway...

[Abejita]

hey appyday..I said exactly the same thing. I have never weaned 'gradually' whether it was a herd of 20 that all got weaned on the same day or one foal. yes with the herd they have each other for company.I never heard of gradual weaning until it was brought up on a paso BB..

and I have to say it ..and I dont really mean to hurt you Coreen..but yes I did tell you not to wait with this one.I see no reason for people with one to a few youngsters to not have them halter broke at a young age barring the owners having some physical problem happen. I am sorry but if she isnt halter broke ..and something happens now ..( she could have coliced before now too) it is your fault only.Putting foals on the ground is a big responsibility.I have been on my soapbox about this before on here. This filly is how old now?? 8 months? How have you been able to trim her,deworm her and give her vaccinations before?

[Edurne]

Cristi weans by putting the mares & foals in with the large herd for a few months, then separates the mares out and leaves the foals in with the herd, the mares go back to the mare's field .... quite far away. The foals about 6 months old, do quite well because they are in with their bigger brothers and sisters as well as older horses. Calling by the mares & foals happens for only a couple of hours when they are first separated, and maybe the second day.

When the colts have matured and need to be separated from that herd they go into another field with a the highranking gelding from the other herd, stay in a field with him and then they may go out into the other herd's large field. High ranking gelding establishes dominence and then protects young colts from older horses.

It must be difficult to wean in more constricted areas - and then how long do you keep them separated before they can go back in with momma?

[GeorgeGuns]

Sheri I KNOW what you told me, and I DID have her haltered early but instead of getting better with it she has just gone the opposite. She got haltered for her foal heat poopies and for the heck of it, she got worse. Her wormers were easy - I got her laying down, and she's wised up to that. When she had her groin pull I was able to do that care with her free standing - no clue why - heat packs, washing, etc. Groin pulls is no time to be arguing with a foal about halters and by then she was hating it. I spent weeks doing clicker stuff, longer than that at the feed bin. Jaysus its not like I have waited, its just NOT getting better! I'll probably never have another foal that gets worse instead of better, this isn't common as far as I know. Its not like I've never halter trained a baby. This child, when it comes to halters, is a freak! If any horse here should have been difficult, it was Cascabel, she had a good reason to despise humans. Pesquisa has no reason at all.
She's not pushy, not nippy, not kicky, moves when I say move, I can actually get her hooves up, walks and whoas without question, just not haltered!

[motorgypsy]

I did forget to mention that after a month or so we'll put the fillies back in with mom or I should say mom back in with the filly if mom is a good disciplinarian (if she's not or if she lets the foal suckle we keep her with another mare or two in a separate place) but the colts get put in with dad and SloughP, our gelding and our mini colt as soon as they are close to a year old depending on the time of year.

So we have two or three mare herds that we can use to move mom's and youngsters around in as we see fit.

[Abejita]

Ok Then have you had a vet check her poll to see if there is a problem.

[motorgypsy]

Have you tried a slip rope around the neck to catch and lead her?

I'd sure put that halter on and leave it with a rawhide breakaway. It's not worth the trouble. They just take spells of orneryness. Use a soft rope halter of thin breakable rope and a rawhide tie holding the tie rope to the loop.

Arwen broke about five of our halters before she decided she didn't mind them at all. We just put one right back on her. She didn't break them to break them - she did it because she chose to go somewhere when I had a lead looped but not tied around a tree and she's just so strong she broke it before I could even loosen my hold on the rope.

Remember Boyd's Pluma I think it was who buried hers in the manure pile? Or was that yours Coreen???

She'll get over it. Just relax and laugh at her. It's not a big deal because you can get a rope on her one way or another if you need to. I suspect she senses your aggravation also. A lot of times just backing off is the best thing.

With Silken she just doesn't get her grain until she comes to us to get the leadline on but we wouldn't dare do that with haltering her because she's just too spooky right now. She'd do without food before she let us halter her most likely.

Silken's halter which stays on is a very old, ragged soft fraying thin rope halter that is about to break anyway and we never pull on it at all or tie it. if she pulls back on us we let go of the lead, stomp our foot and ignore her and keep her away from her grain. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Gotta love'em!!

[GeorgeGuns]

LOL - my vets won't touch her! I actually did a touchy feely of her head and neck this evening, everything feels even. (I got a crash course in crooked polls when we took Dolly up to that special vet, Dolly's is literally offset at the atlas, pretty weird, probably been like that for life)

Gawd its just the fastening, the little poop knows what I am doing. HAH - I need a halter that buckles up between her ears!!! I can hold it in place, but the bucking ... grrrrrrrrrrrrrr :evil:

It wasn't mine that buried the halter, my gang ain't quite that creative.

Yes i did try a neck rope, and we won't be doing that again for quite some time.

I've got a few basically free days coming up this week, we are going to have a ball.

[Tami Pinell]

Coreen - if she does not like the buckel type, get the kind that slips over the top of the head... I like these better for it is how a bridle goes on.... plus you do not "need" to do up the throat piece until she is securely tied if it is a problem. If she is rewarded with something she really likes, she will may even become a halter diver - I have some that love to dive into a halter and then look at me for the reward, very proudly! ;-)

[GeorgeGuns]

Tami that's an idea... this halter does unhook at the throat too, I could sertainly see how she feels about it going over the front instead, might be she feels ambushed! There is still the matter of hooking it, but who knows, a few inches might be a huge difference to her.

[Beth Worden]

http://www.kbrhorse.net/tra/snl01.html

Look at this site and try this method to restrain her and get her halter on. I’ve used it on 4 year olds. It works. After she is haltered – with a breakaway halter, leave it on. I hate to leave a halter on anything, but do it. Then it is just the same old, same old as with any animal training – repetition, repetition, repetition. I don’t know if she is in with just her mother or 10 horses, but trying to get anything restrained in a band of horses is just fighting a losing battle. She has either hurt her poll or ears (warts, mites?) or is just ultra-sensitive to that "over-the-top" of her head feeling. If you don’t have the time to dedicate to this one horse to get this done, then hire it done. If you can’t afford to hire it out to a trainer, then give the horse to someone that can. What good is she going to be if you can’t restrain her, vet her, trim her, etc ?

[Terri]

Coreen it sounds like you have lots of good advice here. I'd like to give you some encouragement. When my boarder's 2 yr old filly 1st turned up in my barn she was very much like the filly you are describing. I was terrified of her. Putting her halter on was taking your life in your hands. Picking her hooves, much less trimming them was an impossibility. Catching her was out of the question. The first time we found a blacksmith willing to come out and try trimming her, it took 2 1/2 hours. I thought the only position her ears had were pinned. Today she is almost 5 and a wonderful horse. She is sweet and kind. It only takes 10 minutes to do her hooves. She is still head shy about her bridle and halter, but we are getting there. She is a wonderful trail horse. It took many, many baby steps, lots of patience and just some "growing up time". We put her in with a very patient but dominant lead horse (Mico) who wouldn't put up with her nonsense, but made her feel safe. He taught her how to be a good horse. We celebrated many small victories "look she let me pet her without pinning her ears!yeah!" Lots and lots of baby steps.
What I am trying to say it that it took a long time, lots of consistency and patience and she has become a great horse. I bet your filly will too. So don't give up.

[Edurne]

I haven't seen Coreen give up on any of her horses!!!!!!!!!!

[motorgypsy]

Beth - KBR is my absolutely favorite site. SOOOOOO helpful. They really saved us many times when we had horse problems and they started us with rope halters.

Coreen why don't you use a rope halter. They are so much softer and easier to put on.

Here's another technique we used with our mini but you need help. Get her in the roundpen with two other people and a large tarp. Us the tarp as a squeeze and just move closer to her until you can finally touch and work with her without any restraint. We gave our mini enough room so she didn't try to blast it or the round pen panels and finally slipped on a very fat neck rope and then the halter.

What kind of neck rope did you use? They usually don't mind the fat ones if you don't yank on them but just let them act up until they realize it won't kill them.

She will get over this phase with or without work if you just keep fooling with her and pretty much ignoring her tantrums. They are indeed smart!

[GeorgeGuns]

LOL I'm glad a few of you still have faith in me. Naw I'm not giving up on her but she sure was looking like major alpo the other day. What really kills me about her is that even after she has had a fit, she will come right back to me. Once she gets over this crap, yes she will be a good horse! She can't stand it if I walk away from her, fortunately doesn't give me the cold shoulder like her Bro did - that was cute, he'd sulk for a few days and then it would just kill him to stay away cuz I ignored him back! Pesquisa has made it pretty clear that bribes or anything close to it only works so far - the rest has to involve convincing her that its worth the effort.

About catch straps - now I am just tossing this out - I'm leery of letting one on her while she is in with others, and if this week goes well (with separation) it may be a non-issue. I'm all for the idea of leaving one on her and letting her step on it and figure out that she isn't dying on her own time. But what if another horse steps on it? I've seen others turn babies out with catch straps with other horses, never heard of any mishaps, and really, her stepping on that thing (with or without separation) IS key for her. She needs to get OVER the pressure thing!

The neck rope was thick... I'm not going there, that was a really bad day. I will probably do her a foal sized progress string to wear under strict supervision - AFTER the halter and poll issue is dealt with.

[CarolU]

Coreen, have you put her in the round coral and tired the "Catch Me Game"? I think that is what I'd do. It would definately get her over her 'phobia' about halters and ropes just that fast. It's a lot different when it is THEIR CHOICE to get caught.

You just have to be tougher then she is. LOL

Good luck!

[cowboy ed]

coreen, i think it was that dadgum clicker training that has messed up miss PISKISSA. i would just manhandle her, put a halter on her and make her like it.

[motorgypsy]

C Ed she already has repeatedly done that. And remember - just because you have a technique that works doesn't mean others don't have different techniques just as successful. There's more than one way to "skin a cat".

Clicker is very powerful and works very well but foals - especially paso fino filly foals - can be extremely willful. In fact one clicker site says clicker doesn't work until a horse is at least a yearling. If you think in human terms it's like getting a lot of money for doing a job you really hate - you may well reach a point where they money is no longer important. Several of our guys are like this. If they won't take a carrot you may as well hang it up for a while until they're in a better mood because they've drawn the line for the time being. They're either too afraid which is typical or they're too stubborn which is definitely possible! We just do something else for a while and ease back into what we're trying to teach.

[cowboy ed]

nah, she didnt do the "make her like it" part...........

[GeorgeGuns]

Egads Ed I can't believe you said that. I haven't "made her like it" cuz it "made me rope burn", and nearly made her a broke neck!

Carol, its been a long winter, not enough PNH. Ya know what I remembered? Blocking. PK doesn't want to put her nose in so she'll bite the bucket and try to get around me... but jeeze o peeze I can't stop that jerky leg of mine! She tries to sidle off somewhere, well dangit I just had to go over there for something my self but i forgot what! Two sessions like that and.. aw she went looking for that halter. Still not best pleased with stuff over her poll, but maybe i can learn to back up faster than she can? Nah, bad idea, I'd probably trip us both!

The Catching game.. with her methinks it will be the Go Away game - you don't like it, you get to go away. You want to leave, let me help you. Don't like the halter? 2 laps. I'll have to be careful with this - didn't work on her daddy, worked like a charm on some others, usually the ones that are already wanting to be with you anyway. Should work for her.

[cowboy ed]

ok, sorry you cant believe i said that. maybe i come across a bit rough sometimes. it is just that it is exasperating for me to read some of this.

here is what i would do if i had the filly here. i would put her in my 10 x 16 stall. i would get my halter, lead rope, training stick, and my stick with the hook on the end. i would get in there with the filly and try to get her to let me touch her shoulder. if i could touch her shoulder and rub her a little bit, then i would rub her shoulder with the end of the lead rope, then i would get the rope around her neck, loop it through the snap, then stand there and rub her shoulder for a few minutes. if she wanted to fight with the rope a bit, then i would let her have some slack and move around a bit. its a 10 x 16 stall, so i can let her move without putting a lot of tension on the rope. then i would tug on the rope just enough to make her turn her head slightly toward me. as soon as she did that, i would release the pressure, then repeat until she turns toward me, eventually taking a step in my direction. then i would do the same thing from the other side. after that, i would get close to her and start flipping that rope all over her, starting across her back and working my way down to her front legs, then her back legs. if she tried to run away, i would just keep a little tension on the lead rope, go with her, and keep flipping the rope across her back until she stops and relaxes. i would flip the rope over her neck and under her neck. then i would stand in front of her and flip the rope over her head, making sure it brushes across her ears. if she jumped around acting silly, i would just go with her and keep flipping that rope until she settled down. then i would get my rope halter, untie it and bring the poll strap around her neck, then tie it, leaving a lot of slack in the poll strap. this would enable me to get the nose band over her nose, without putting any pressure on her poll. once i got the noseband in place, i would tighten up the halter until it fit properly. then i would stand off to her side, and pull on the leadrope, getting her to face me, or at least turn slightly toward me. i would repeat this excercise until she would step sideways and turn toward me. repeat for the other side. after that, i would begin teaching her the lateral flexion excercises. some people might disagree with doing this excercise at this point, but i know how well it works and what it does for the horse. it gets the tension out of the head and neck and teaches the horse to relax. after that, the rest is easy.

[stella]

Coreen, I have to say, in all the many decades I've had foals, the HARDEST one to halter, and keep haltered, and initially work with leading, was my Bri filly Roseta. That was why I traded fillies with Bunny, she was a bit much for her, at first! And the included, AFTER she was weaned...for awhile, she was WORSE, like it was MY fault her momma wasnt there(and momma was a cooperative type, too)

BUT, that being said, after THAT...months and months of time and effort, exhasperatingly so - to get her to "open her mind. be receptive- she hasnt really been a problem with anything at all- a little claustophobic about going into the main barn aisle(looks like a dark hole, with those noisy "boys" in it), at first...but about accepting stuff on her, being ridden, etc....she turned out WONDERFULLY. Very sensible, true brio without being hyper, super square-gaited, trails or ring. The time you put in, DOES have its REWARDS. Everything else has been a piece of cake....my persistence-without "losing it," paid off....repeatedly.

Witholding treats is one thing, but I certainly dont agree with witholding grain from a YOUNGSTER that NEEDS it for development. One thing for a mature horse, that may NOT need it - plus, a mature brain is already developed, too.....a youngster's isnt,just like human children -your expectations shouldnt be the same as for an adult horse. Do not compromise the foal's physical development by witholding grain, it cant make the relationship between its food and not getting the halter on, etc. as easily as an older animal. Yes, make it "do something" after, or for a treat, etc.....something that takes 2 seconds at first, like looking at you, facing you,etc...and build on that with TINY steps....learning needs to be broken into tiny steps...master that first, and keep adding every few days to develop an OPEN MIND, and NOT overwhelm it for a SHUT DOWN mind. Like any other creature, they have to be RECEPTIVE TO LEARNING First.

[Cindy]

For what it's worth, I advise against leaving a line on her that is long enough for her to step on. Without going into details I will just say that I have seen very bad results from this practice and have never seen it do much good. If you want to leave a catch line on her, please use a short one that she will not be stepping on and that will not be flailing around her legs.

Personally, I would not even leave a halter on her. Leaving the halter on causes many horses to become sore in the poll area and can cause major problems with getting the halter on and off as they then associate the halter with pain. Since she is already not terribly fond of the halter, I don't see adding a potential problem that just reinforces her fear as being a good plan.

And, Stella, I agree totally about not withholding grain. I have never liked that method for training horses either old or young.

[Blameitonbrio]

I put some thought into the grain-withholding and came to the same conclusion. Not right for me. So, Brio is eating his grain out of a bucket in my lap (or Tony's) while I rub him with the rope and halter.

We are taking baby steps. I have time (I hope!). He is going to have to learn to come to the halter like my other horses do, so I am going to use the behavior-shaping strategy described by Carol with a lot of what others have suggested. I can do what Lynn suggested once he doesn't believe the rope isn't going to eat him. I think that the castration last week coupled with my having to run him around the paddock for forced exercise have made things a little harder.

I was going to ask about leaving the breakaway halter on him once I got it on, but I see that Cindy has addressed that. I was leaning toward not leaving it on him, because my goal is for him to stick his head in it like Marisa, Nisha and Mack do.

Sorry for interrupting your thread Coreen, but the halter thing was timely for me. I hope I wasn't too disruptive. This thread has had a lot of great information in it which shows the diversity of techniques used by our BB community -- something for everyone.

[appyday]

bubba pulled this crap this week..Im not going on a ride..catch me first...so I fed the girls...They dont share..Bubba got hay no grain..next day went out did not even look at him...grained the girls and left...next day I went in the field with treats and fed the girls and the llamas..Bubba begged for a treat..I left...next day came in treats again he stood there I showed him the treat then I haltered hime THEN I gave him the treat..I left the halter on a few days (still on) to make sure he gets this idea...Yesterday we went to go on a ride I went in the field..fed the treats to the girls and llamas Bubba stood right over me..I showed him the treat...I grabbed his halter put the lead rope on THEN I gave him the treat..working good for me...yes he is getting grain now..has been after the first 2 days...

[Tami Pinell]

Well - now I am convenced that I need to take Coreen a couple of MY horses.... first let's put a halter on her and LEAVE it on - turn her in with Casanova and Eli - those guys will grab her by the halter and play tug-a-war with her head (one on each side!) and if she runs, they will chace her until they catch her and drag her around by the darn thing.... no problem getting her to accept halter pressure after they get a hold on her...
Oh, forgot - you still need Ruby to get the darn thing on in the first place - head slams until she stands there and lets Coreen put it on....
Now I bet you wonder if that poor filly would like seeing me coming with a halter and rope - darn toot'in, better me that those guys! :shock:

[appyday]

I say catch her and tie her to a donkey for a few days... :lol:

[Edurne]

The yearlings that I feed at the tb farm stand tied to be fed, and have done so since they joined the "big" herd with their mommas. They had halters on from within a few days of being born that had little catch ropes attached. They learned to be lead during the period they were with their mommas in the smaller paddocks or fields, and came in every night. Roy was a little headshy and did break his, and it did take a few days to put it back on, but as he gets older he is less flighty. They are four months older than Pesky Peskita, and that is when I remember him as being most difficult around his head. Today I was surprised that he came up to me and put his head in my hand and let me lead him by the halter. I'm sure this is a phase.... just to be worked through.

[motorgypsy]

Cindy the soft thin rope halters don't make sore spots and they break. Ask Arwen how many she's broken. For the kids we tied the tie rope to the loop with a rawhide strip and yes they did break it but we put it back on with a new one and no damage done. We did see the really nasty result of a flat halter that a nice three year old filly had on that she caught on a tree. She took off most of the skin on her face with it.

It took us six months to get a halter on Silken (yes we could have done it in a much shorter time but wanted her to come to us which she does now - both of us) and initially she would indeed skip her grain rather than let us touch her. Little by little we stood closer and closer to her as she ate and on occasion touched her muzzle or neck and of course she jumped like she'd been shocked but we had moved back and turned our back to her before she had a chance to jump so she was jumping at nothing.

We don't go in a stall with a freaked or difficult foal. If it has windows we'll work with it through the windows. For us foals are much more dangerous than adults because they don't know the rules. We have two acquaintances who were severly injured by foals. One has a plate in his head from a kick.

I have to say the leaf rake worked very well for me in a stall with an adult that was very very spooky. I guess like the Dog Whisperer's tennis racket. Basically all I did with it was keep the butt away from me and move the horse around the stall. Each time the horse moved properly I backed it off and let the horse relax. Now for Sultan, our stallion, it's pure heaven to have his butt scratched with a leaf rake!!! The steer next door loved it too!

I do like a small round pen though because quite frankly I can jump out of one really fast if necessary but they are more dangerous for a foal.

[Cindy]

It does not matter if the halter will break. What I am talking about with the poll becoming sore has nothing to do with getting a halter caught or having any kind or trauma. It has to do with the halter simply being on the horse and rubbing and getting the mane wrapped up and causing discomfort to the horse. It does not matter what kind of halter. It is simply the fact of having a halter ON the horse all the time. It is not something that I would ever do if I had any other choice as I have had to deal with the results too many times.

[GeorgeGuns]

Ed I consider myself well slapped, thanks. I needed that. My foaling stall is 13 x 17, just about right, and hubby is due home in 2 days. He will have to put up a top to the half door there - Rio jumped it (43 inches) at 5 mos of age after he got his vaccines, lol he did great for the shots but when the vet and I were chatting, he figured we were done with him and he just jumped it! I don't feel like starting a tradition, although it looks like we already have one.

Stella I recall you mentioning Roseta being... willful? at that young age. I didn't realize you had such a time with the halter. If I remember right, Ceruleo wasn't halter broke, but we wrote that off as circumstance... Rio was difficult and frustrating, not as bad as little sis, still has opinions about the halter, but he's a boy, food works, lol. He has turned out to be the sweetest horse here. Frankly, aside from this halter crap, Pesquisa really is a charming filly.

Cindy - you bet I would never leave a catch rope long enough to get tangled. Plus that could scare one through a fence, don't need that!!! Ive also seen poll evil - nasty stuff, and its usually caused by halters left on although I bet bug bits have somethin to do with it or we'd see a lot more of that mess. Thinking about it.. wearing a halter only gets her used to wearing it, it doesnt get her to accept putting on and taking off.

[appyday]

Coreen did you see this...these guys are bad too..

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=392435cd1b73b908bbf61

[GeorgeGuns]

AAARRRGGHHH my puter is allergic to videos.. I either need to rewrite the windows 98 or get a new puter.

[Lynn L.]

Coreen, I feel for you. I had a filly, Sniglet, that was quite the handful. I think she may be too smart. By the age of 3 weeks old, she would give me her hoof whenever I was cleaning momma's hoof. However, she was very skeptical of everything. She always wanted proof that this should be important to her.

Two hurricane seasons ago, my little filly was five months old. By the time she was a month old, she let me halter her. Then she got scared one day and blamed it on the halter. She wouldn't let me halter her after that. Well, I would play with it, but didn't really stress. I knew that eventually I would get the halter on her and there was no hurry. Then I found out that Hurricane Frances was bearing down on me. Well, we halter during a storm because you never know what is going to happen. We had a smallish foaling pen. I played the catch me game for about 3 hours (all the time hearing the clock ticking and watching the clouds rolling in). She ran around like a banshee. Momma was mad at me for chasing the baby. She wasn't weaned yet. My husband would walk by as he was storing things for the storm and occassionaly tell me that I was never going to get her haltered. Pride and fear would not let me give up. (My worst nightmare was her getting loose with no way to catch her.) She finally let me halter her calmly.

Of course, after the storm, we flooded and conditions were horrible for over a week. Snig had to keep her halter on. Finally, about two weeks later, when everything was "normal" (as normal as it can be after being hit by hurricane), I took off her halter. I would never normally keep one on this long, but didn't really have any choice. Of course, she had no intention of ever letting me put that thing back on her. About a week after that, I was told that Hurricane Jeanne was going to hit. So, back to the catch me game. This time my trainer Kirsten got to do it. She used a little of the catch me game in the larger pen and then moved her into her stall (12X16). She then got a large, very soft cotton rope with a large metal ring. After she moved her around the stall a little bit (which wasn't a problem!). She got the rope around her middle like a belt. Then she did a lot of playing "face me" with the rope. This did lead to a fight, but Kirsten kept calmly saying to face her. By using angles, she could pretty much get this silly girl to face her. Once she wasn't too freaked out by this, she lead her a little by her middle. The she would wrap the rope around Snig's nose like a nose band. Since Kirsten still had the rope around her middle, Snig couldn't really go anywhere. Then She wrapped the end of the rope behind her poll and lead her by her middle. Snig finally let her try to put on the halter. Of course, because she had a growth spurt in the last three weeks, it didn't fit. So I had to run down and get another. But Snig let her put it on and even was friendly afterwards. It took Kirsten about 2 1/2 hours to accomplish all this in a nice relaxed manner. However, she lead well and didn't freak out about the halter nearly as badly after that. I also made sure that after Jeanne that I put a halter on and off of her every day.

So, don't give up on your baby. Snig got the halter thing and is probably the smartest baby that I ever have been around. She got everything so quickly. It was just that if she didn't think it applied to her, then she would have nothing to do with it. You will find the right trick for her and get PK willingly accepting the halter. Then wait until you find the next thing that she doesn't want to do!

Good luck. I know you can do it.

[GeorgeGuns]

No I'm not giving up, but I'm sure not doing the bellyrope thing! That's for pro's. I do tie a lead around the girth area during training, to get them used to the ideal, but I am not attached, and its after all the other fun games are done so we have some good communication going.

Methinks she is gonna be Crotch Rocket #2 for sure, lol. Body wise she looks like her pa, but everything else is mama esp mentally the only difference being P doesn't run from me! (Domi just wants food, that's all, empty handed I haven't got a chance) The other day when I pulled Domi in, of course the P was racing around the pasture.. boy is she fast!!! The only horse here that might have kept up with her was too lazy to get out of the hay pile - Lucero. P has a heck of a stretch, and in a few years that will get translated to largo and then WATCH OUT!!!!

[stella]

Ceruleo was no where near as difficult as Roseta to halter, and yes...he had LITTLE handling previously, but he was also older...she didnt do well until SHE got older, closer to being a yearling. Both were fine once we got over this point, and Roseta has been fine since, except she can be a bit claustrophobic- like, the T/O shedrow style stalls are OK, but she didnt like the aisleway part of the barn I have now.....it was weeks for her not to balk to walk into it -EVERY DAY, when she was started under saddle.
But, relatively minor compared to what other horses have as quirks!

[GeorgeGuns]

Hmmm, the boys are better at it than the girls... oh well. Forewarned is fore armed.
I;ve been finding ways to play with the P, like putting her head through a looped rope, using a grooma to make those areas feel extra good (that works!) and the next couple of "slow" days I have we can do the stall thing with a little more confidence. Thank God she is not hard to "catch" (can you say 'shadow'?) and she is fine in the foaling stall by herself. I just have to keep stacking the cards on my side of the table!
I've also found the Iver-ease - wormer problem solved for now. She will let me pinch and poke her butt so I may recruit the big strong hubby for vaccines... its GOT to get done!!

[motorgypsy]

The girls can really be funny. Arwen is the most tractable filly you can ask for but if she decides she doesn't like something you may as well go get another halter because she's going to break hers if you tie her and she's flat out going to refuse. When we needed her sedated to check a sore foot we had to put two halters on her and cross tie her to two trees with four stretchy ropes just looped, not tied, so she couldn't hurt herself and it took an hour to get get the sedative in her. Yet she'll let us do almost anything to her or with her. She's just very opinionated and when she says NO you'd better back off and slow down. She does come around but it's not easy.