training question

[jmtw]

Pretend you have a 13yo Paso stallion.
Unbroke, but gentle.

Suggestions on starting to saddle.
And, no roundpen.

Thanks.

[Hacienda Del Sol]

You don't really need a roundpen, but of course it helps. What you should do is go back to basic foundation: use a rope halter and lead and be sure the horse understands basic pressure and release. Move to desensitizing the horse. Flex, turn, move the shoulder and hip, etc. When that's well cemented in, move to desensitizing with the pad, then the saddle, and so on. Repeat the same work while the saddle is on. Be proactive, you really don't want the horse to buck or fight if you can help it. Just go slow and be sure your movements are secure and deliberate. Think about what you want to do and them move to do it without hesitation.

[jmtw]

I've saddled and sat on him, when he's tied.
I've done some desensitizing.
Some basic lunging.

with his disposition, I could probably ride him now. but. i want everything right first. no problems i have to try and correct later.

[Pasogirlz]

Does he need to be sacked out or desynthatized?

[jmtw]

*looks outside* he's sacked out now, I think. :lol: sorry.

probably. I've done some desensitizing, but not enough, i'm sure

[cowboy ed]

well, joey, he will probably be easy, but then again, it is easy to mess up at this stage of the game. dont tie him up and get on him. that is an accident looking for a place to happen.
your basic ground work sounds ok, but teach him lateral flexions/one rein stops. that way, when you do get on him to ride, if he gets nervous, you can stop him and get him relaxed before you have any kind of problem.
teach him to move forward, backwards, left and right on the ground first.
when you get on him, the ground work transfers easily to the saddle. when you first ride him, just ask him to walk small circles, about 20 feet in diameter. work in both directions. then gradually ride bigger circles. do one rein stops if he goes faster than you want to.
i could write a book on this, but these are just a few basics to get you going.

[jmtw]

he does very very well while tied. never ever pulls.
i did have him in crossties when i got on.
he was a perfect gentleman. subject to change without notice, of course, since he is a horse.

[SandyMM]

What's his name?

[Hacienda Del Sol]

he do well tied, but you're headed for a wreck working like that. Ed's right, don't tie him.

[CarolU]

Joey, if it was me (and it will be me this summer with a 10-year-old recently ex-stallion), I'd do EVERYTHING I can think of on the ground (can be on lunge line and not in round pen) before getting in the saddle.

The thing you will find with these horses is that everything will go fine, great...until the ONE day when you ask them to do something they don't want to do. It is MUCH better to have that experience sooner, rather then later, and on the ground, rather then in the saddle.

The 'temper tantrum' that has been described in other posts about babies, these horses still have to have, but they are adults now and very used to doing what they want. The 'reconing' has to happen. Better you work on the ground and push the envelope and find out where that edge is, then find it out in the middle of a show, parade, or trail ride.

Every thing you do on the ground translates directly to saddle work. None of it is time wasted.

Good luck..(and yes, we want pictures!!)

[Terry Wallace]

Does he have brakes & steering yet? Can you drive him in long reins? I would not get on a stallion that age (or any horse really) before I had brakes & steering, and the horse is familiar with the terms WALK and HO. I use Ho for "whoa" because whoa sounds too much like "walk".

After that, I get on them in my training pen and basically let them roam around and find their balance, before I ask much of anything from them. Some will just stand there, some will take off walking slowly. Keep a hold of your reins in case you need to pull their head around one side or the other, if they are trying to move too fast. Be very clam, act like everything is O.K., and do not show any fear from the saddle. Not more than say 15 minutes for the first few rides, building up to 20-25 minutes.

[jmtw]

Sandy, he's Toledo del Cabildo.

No, haven't drove him yet. He doesn't know how.
I'm going to do more desensitizing, sacking out, lunging, etc before I get back on.

[PattiB]

Just to repeat what others have said. He needs to know how to stop, turn both directions & back all on the ground before you get back on. Skipping steps now just because he seems easy will come back to bite you later. Make sure he is responding easily and not just a little. When he decides to act up under saddle you want to know you can get his attention back and not hope he will decide to give a little.

[jmtw]

Explain how I teach a one rein stop, please.

As well as the pros and cons.

[jmtw]

btw, I am not going to use a bit. period. No discussion. :smile:

[PattiB]

If you teach him to flex his head around easily to both sides, then when you want to stop you can flex his head around and most horses will stop.With the one rein stop you have to release the rein on one side and pull only on the other side. Some need only a small flex, some need to come around to your leg to stop.Although I've had a few that will sit and spin instead of stopping, most will stop. Remember to release after you get the correct response.

Circling will slow a horse down, the smaller the circle the slower they wil go. If he speeds up too fast, circle, after he slows down let his head go straighter. Keep repeating until he maintains the speed you want.

[Terry Wallace]

If you are not ever going to use a bit...be sure you adjust that noseband and curb down LOW enough. Horses just learning to be ridden can out-pull you in a heartbeat, so you want to be able to reach down and grab that side by the noseband, if you get into a situation where he is spooked, or out of control. You will NEED to be able to pull that head around to arc him IF you need to, to circle him, to get him stopped.

Be aware that horses go through stages in training..its something like this, at first they are very interested in learning, this lasts about two weeks, then they start to realize it is "work". By week three they may not seem so enthused anymore and may start to test you...its perfectly normal. They are "lazy" creatures, and would of course rather be out grazing. Most come around by week six...

What you do in those first six weeks really counts. This is when you start to build that reliable mount. I don't bit them until they are ready...that usually takes about 2 months of steady work, to go from two sets of reins to keep them framed and in gait, the top set for steering, the bottom set for stopping. After a while when they are working well off the bottom set, you can lose the top set.

Just what works for me. I take as "long as it takes" to proceed from one learned task to the next. That makes for horses you can put out in pasture for six months or longer, bring up, and get right on and ride without all this "restart" stuff some folks feel they have to do, just because they haven't ridden in months... teach it right the first time, and it will pay back in spades!

[jmtw]

Thanks. I appreciate it. :smile:

[Linda Y]

Joey, I think Toledo was broke to ride as a youngster, so you probably have a small head start there. I don't know how much actual riding he got, but at least he had some basics.

[jmtw]

Yeah, I know Linda. But, it's been so long, I figure might as well not have had it. Maybe it will help. :)

[Linda Y]

Ah, you know they never forget anything...the good OR the bad!
Anyway, best of luck getting him back under saddle and out on the trail!

[jmtw]

Thanks, Linda. :smile:

[Cindy]

I have a question for the one rein stop people as I use the standard two reins to stop. Why do you use one? What's wrong with the traditional stop? I use one rein to turn, two reins to stop. Never had any problem doing it that way. Don't see a need to do it any other way. Please enlighten me.

[cowboy ed]

cindy, the one rein stop is not just a way to make the horse stop. i use the one rein stop in the initial training. one rein stops/lateral flexions are the very best thing to teach your horse to go the speed you want, when you want it. it is also great for teaching your horse to relax and stand still in just about any situation. horses that have all manner of problems, such as buddy sour, barn sour, herd bound, wont cross the creek, shies at objects, bolts, bucks, rears, you name it, i can fix it by teaching the one rein stop excercise and using it consistently.

once the horse is going well under saddle, going the speed i want, and doing everything i ask, then i will teach the more traditional stop cue, a little pressure on both reins, relax the seat and legs, and tell him whoa.

[Pasogirlz]

Do you teach him to stop to both sides?

[Cindy]

I do flex the horses as well, Ed. And before I ever get on them they stop in the flex, move forward in the flex and back in the flex. But I use both reins at all times. And always use two reins to stop even if I am stopping in a flex. And, yes, teaching this type of control gets me through any obstacle we encounter and it is taught from the ground before I ever get on their backs. And perhaps I would need to see you use this one rein stop to fully understand why you find it appealing, but I still do not understand the advantage of that over using two reins.

A problem that I have found with horses that I get who have been trained by others is that many of them do not know how to respond to both reins being used at the same time. To acheive full collection and balance in a horse, one must be able to use both reins at the same time. So I guess I don't understand why one would not start with this from the begining.

[cowboy ed]

yes, cindy, it would probably help you to see it being done correctly. an additional advantage to one rein stops/lateral flexions is that it gets the horse very flexible at the poll, which of course helps tremendously with gait and headset.
like you, i teach all of this on the ground first, before i ever get on the horse. however, i dont ask the horse to move much while flexed. i want the horse to understand that when i do the one rein stop/lateral flexion, that is his cue to stand still, not move his feet, and relax. as the training progresses, i will ask for a flex and give at the walk, and eventually at other speeds. that work is always accompanied by the addition of a leg cue to let the horse know the difference between being asked to stop and being encouraged to keep moving.

pm lexi (mel c) and ask her how well this works!

[cowboy ed]

lori, yes, you teach the horse to do this on both sides. repeat the excercise enough so that the horse is very supple and relaxed with it.

[Cindy]

I guess I do these same exercises, Ed, but I don't do them specifically to teach the horse to stop. I do them both stopping and moving forward from the begining. I would not want the horse to stop when I asked for flexion with one rein or the other unless I also asked him to stop as I want him to be able to move forward through the flex as well as stop into the flex and back in the flex. I still say if I want the horse to stop, I am going to ask the horse to stop with both reins. Sometimes this stop will be while flexed to one side or the other and other times it will be in the middle. Same exercise, same goal, different approach.

[Pasogirlz]

Great information :notworthy

[PattiB]

One of the reasons for a one rein stop is in case of bolting, many people just instictively pull back on both reins or try to do a circle but forget to release the outside rein to bring the head around more. I think it is more of a conditioning response for the rider to learn to use one rein for emergency stops.
I use two reins normally for stopping, turning etc. but in the case of a horse not responding I go to the one rein flex and stop. Cindy you probably use it without thinking about it if a horse decides they aren't going to stop.

[Cindy]

Actually, on horse that I have trained, I don't want the riders to use one rein if the horse gets excited or scared of something. If they want the horse to stop, they use both reins and the horse WILL stop as I am adament about teaching my horses this above all else. If they use one rein, the horse will turn a circle. If the horse is afraid, the circle may not be a circle, it may be a flip around and get the hell out of here. If the horse is afraid of something, I want them to face it, not to turn away. Therefore, I do not want to stop them by turning. I want to stop them straight and look at what we are afraid of. The only reason we will turn is if the thing we are sacred of is to the side and not in front. In that case, I will turn the horse to face it as I am stopping him. But even when I do that, I am not only using one rein. I am using both reins, just not equally Stop is stop. I have seen many riders get themslves in trouble by turning the horse. This to me is very dangerous to teach riders to do if they do not understand all else that goes with it.

And, by the way, for those who think that turning the head will always stop the horse, it won't. I once had a horse that was taught to bolt. He would do this out of nowhere and he was big and strong and very fast. Once when he did it with me I had his head on my left leg and he proceeded to run as fast as he could to the right. He did not stop until we were on the other side of a 4 rail fence. Stop is stop and all horses need to learn that first and foremost whether you use one rein or four.

[PattiB]

I tried a one rein stop on a run away Paso mule, she did the samething. She brought her head all the way around and kept on going, we parted ways at the fence when she went right and the saddle and I went left. She was good at stopping most of the time but when she freaked out FORGET ABOUT IT!! The second time she ran away with me, I jumped off before we got to the road. A truck just about hit her, sent her to a mule trainer after that. He made her freak out in a plowed field and ran her until she didn't want to go anymore. He said she never tried again, my guess is she was waiting for the right time :twisted: Last time I ever rode a mule.

[cowboy ed]

yes, cindy, no right or wrong, just different! :D

[Cindy]

This horse had a switch in his brain that would go off. Never did it to me on the trail, only in the arena. Big open space. His first trainer he had thrown a couple times by running away in the arena and I think this taught him to do it. Hurt the trainer's back pretty good one time from what I heard. The first time he did it to me I bailed. The second time I was bound and determined that I was not going to bail. I was going to stop him. Nope. The fence stopped him. But only after he was on the other side of it. You could not stop this horse.

I got this horse to the point that I could ride him fine and he did not run away with me again after that time he went through the fence. But I never knew if he could be trusted with anyone else. And I always wondered if this could ever be completely gone from him. When his owner (pretty much a novice) asked me if he would ever be able to ride the horse I said I didn't know. Possibly not. The horse eventually got traded to a trainer that I had a lot of respect for and I was anxious to see what would happen with him. If he could ever be completely cured of this problem.

Well, that trainer had had him for a while and he took him to his first show. The trainer was Colombian and had never shown in Performance before so he asked me to show the horse for him. I did and he won Performance Stallions and the Championship. The trainer showed him the next day and for the rest of the year. Then one day, we were showing in the LA Equestrian center. The trainer won the class with this stallion and when he went to get the ribbon, the horse's curb chain broke and he took off like a bat out of hell. If you have ever been to the LA Equestrian center, he ran out the arena, around the warm up area in front of the barns and headed to the cars parked outside the arena between the barn and the arena. He stopped right in front of a car when the trainer jumped off. Everyone thought that the trainer was running the horse to show off because he had won the class. But I knew the truth. And that truth was, it could never be completely gone from his mind. He could never be trusted to not do it no matter how much training and how many years. He would always have that switch.

[Pasogirlz]

I always worry about Tequila doing this to me. Before I sent him to training...I foolishly thought I could do some of it myself. I started in the round pen and things were going pretty good so I got brave and took him out on the trail w/Mom and a cousin. We were doing well...until a storm started to roll in and lightning started cracking around us before the rain fell. Well...after the first crack, Tequila spooked and started off at a gallop. I managed to pull his head to the side fast and stop him. But I was spooked too. Then seconds later, another crack of lightning...this time closer. Well...NO stopping T this time. He took off FULL BLAST. I tried and tried to pull his head to the side again and his neck was like a brick wall. I finally had to bail off before a tree branch took me down. I hurt myself pretty good. A few weeks later, got back on tried riding him around a smaller area that was not open pasture. When he wanted to go faster than I liked, he just took off, neck braced, headed for a low hanging oak tree...bailed off agian. :roll: Did more roundpen work, felt really comfortable again. Took him out again. Things were going so well, like a Sunday stroll. Then....out of no where :roll: a cow that was laying under a tree beside the trail decided to get up as we approached. Well, Tequila saw a horse eating bovine and spun around and retreated at WARP SPEED back to the barn. Again, no turning that neck to the side. I used both hands pulling him and bracing myself in the saddle. All I could do was hold on and watch as my life passed before my eyes. We were headed towards a barb wire fence w/a small open gap for a gate. If he went thru the gate, he would have to make a sharp turn to the right. At the speed we were going I did not know if I would be able to stay on for the turn, and if I did, there was a lot more room for him to haul buggy w/me. :shock: I decided to take a chance and point him towards the fence in hopes that he would stop before going thru it. With only seconds to spare, I reached down w/both hands again and gave three huge tugs on the left side and pulled him enough to the left to avoid the open gate. He stopped DEAD at the fence. Thankfully I stopped w/him. I got off and promtly heaved my guts up while I shook like a leaf. :shock:
The next week he went to the trainer in Miami. :lol: But I still wonder if he has forgotten that...and I never let him gallop. Occassionally a canter on the trails to catch up, but I'm too nervous he will just take off w/me again.

[Cindy]

Hm. You obviously had not taught him the one rein stop. ROFLMAO Or any stop at all for that matter. LOLOL. Oops, sorry. Not laughing at you, laughing with you. You are laughing, no? Trainers are GOOD. Trainers are your friends. ;-)

[Pasogirlz]

LOL. Cindy! Obviously not as well as I thought. :shock:
He was stopping good in the round pen....but apparently that was it. :lol:
Trainers are INDEED my friends. :hug

[Primroseddp]

Cindy i totally agree with you , to many people worry about what i call a joke , the one rein stop , i call it a joke because from what i have seen a lot of people on this forum belive that a one rein stop is the cure for every thing to stop to go , and in reality it can cause more problems then helping , manly with people that don.t know how to do it right and to tell people to do it with out them knowing how is a JOKE !!!!! Thanks Cindy i have wanted to say this for months now

[CarolU]

Well, training a STOP is the important part...weather one rein or two. The problem is that most people do neither and think that if you pull on the horse's reins, it will stop - and sometimes it will. But a determined horse will just lean into the pressure of the bit and away you go.

The one-rein stop FIRST should be trained, and secondly, it IS about the only thing you can do with a run-away...yes,.you may go in a BIG circle before you stop, but you will stop. I believe the horse Cindy is talking about, that could run with it's head twisted around, is a pretty rare character, especially compared to the many horses that 'take the bit in their mouth' and run with it. I - personally - have never seen a horse that ran out of a one-rein stop, but have seen (and in my younger days, ridden) many horses that would run right through the bit or the bosal when applying both reins. In fact "running away" is the No. 1 'fix' people bring horses to me for, and it is always the same problem.

To be honest, I train horses to stop when I drop the reins..but that is after larning STOP many other ways first, and the first thing I teach any horse is the one rein stop-and-relax.

[Pasogirlz]

Dear Don-
Can you please explain your training/stopping techniques for the folks at home? ;-)

[CarolU]

I was just reading Cindy's questions on page two about the one-rein stop. I wanted to clarify that you still use two reins for contact and collection - to control or adjust the speed. The one rein stop is not used routinely, it is taught at first as an emergency brake - and yes, it is trained to both directions.

Some other uses I've found for it is to adjust the speed of impulsive horses on loose reins. I train for loose reins and impulsive horses have a tendency to go faster and faster, when they do, I one-rein them to a stop-and-relax, and then head out again. They eventually get the idea that if they maintain the speed I want on a loose rein, I'll leave them alone. The stop-and-RELAX is a critical part, because I want them to learn that I am after a RELAXED horse.

That said, I want to clarify for others reading this BB that I am not training horses for show, collection, lots of brio, here...I train family type trail/pleasure horses. A horse that maintains speed and gait calmly on a loose rein is my goal.

[Primroseddp]

Well here goes the remark that the horse Cindy was talking about is rare is not real true , I have seen aprox 9 horses alone this year , these horses were flexed so much that they could look at you and run right through a fence , street or what ever , I also train for a very loose rein for show or trail , or for special horses that i have trained for diff moives or celebs to ride in parades etc, the most important thing a person must learn is a stop, not an emerg if you will stop, To me a stop means to have all four feet on the ground and relaxed , i have seen Cindy horses and they do just that most all the times in a relaxed manor, I feel you should always use two reins , Carol just said that she uses two reins in a one rein stop , so therefore it is not a one rein stop just turning a horse in a circle until it gets small enough or tired and does not want to go further or dizzie, i don't say this because i don't know what a one rein stop is , but because I do , i have seen horses go straight up , over backwards etc, diff horses react to it diff, Lori like when i was working t in Ocala at the show,he had to learn not to turn every tine something happened but to face it and relax :roll:

[CarolU]

Carol just said that she uses two reins in a one rein stop

I must have missed that part. Where did I say that?

I use two reins to control collection and momentum..not to stop. I drop reins and quit riding to stop. In a runaway situation, I would still/always use a one-rein stop, and I use it to train a horse not to be impulsive.

It has nothing to do with flexing or repeated flexing (which I agree, over-flexing will RUIN a horse, if that is what you are saying - but that is not a one-rein stop). Are you sure you know what a one-rein stop is?

[cowboy ed]

ok, ya'll can make all the fun you want about one rein stops. i know how to teach it to a horse and teach it very well. it works great for all the things i have mentioned. shame you cant be more open minded. those of you who train using other methods in other disciplines, i understand and respect your experience. but based on some of your comments, i could teach you a thing or two. ;-)

[Primroseddp]

Mister Ed maybe you can teach me a thing or two as no one person nows it all , as i learn something new every day, What i am saying is people use the one rein stop as the cure all and people that read what we say , because we do know what we are doing, and they go and read a little then go out with a horse we knwo nothing about and try to do what we do can and often does get them in trouble, like i had a client that went to every John Lyons clinic he could , well one day after getting back from a clinic he call crying and asked wether he should kill or casturate his stallion, i then asked why , he stated that he did everything that John had told them to do , i ask what , he had a bad stallion , he worked him in the round pen he did great , then he got down on his knees and asked the horse to come to him , the stallion did , at that time the horse bit him on the shoulder threw him down and tried to stomp him to death , the only real good thing he said he got from Lyons was his round pen as it was high enough off the ground to roll under before getting hurt beyond a broke arm and collar bone , we as trainer have to be very careful because we really don't now the horse and the owners often understate or don't realize what kind of horse they have , and yes carol i do know what a one rein stop is thank you, but i would hate to think someone who doesn't know how would try it on a trail in the woods ,etc so why not teach the horse at all times to stop right from the start

[Primroseddp]

PS Mister ED

there is no way i meant to make fun or light of what you do , and if i sounded like that i am very sorry it is not the way it is meant , i just train prob different, at all times my horses have to mind and respect with out fear for a lot of the riders i have really don't know how to ride, the thought of teaching them the one rein stop would mean everytime the horse would sneeze they would be doing it then it loses the effect of what it is meant to achive thats all

[CarolU]

Okay Don, if you don't use a one rein stop, tell us how you train a horse to stop all the time with two reins. And when one pulls through the reins and braces in the bit and runs away with the rider, how do you tell them to stop the horse?

BTW - I don't see where your story about the stallion has anything to do with one rein stops.

[CarolU]

And Don, let me ask two other questions...

Have you ever trained/used a one-rein stop?

If so, has it ever failed to stop a horse?

And I'm NOT talking about horses that have been flexed to the point they loose their minds and run through wall. Flexing has little to do with one-rein stops. Do not confuse the two. I'm sorry, but my worst expereinces with over-flexed horses were horses that were repeatedly flexed to gain collection, not to stop. This particular problem I have ONLY seen with Paso Finos....but countless breeds and trainers use one-rein stops - with no ill effects to the horses.

[Jasfino]

I taught Jasper the one rein stop first from the ground..as Dennis Reis shows in his rfd programs, and then from the saddle. It is a very easy technique to teach and I consider it one of the most useful things I have learned. I am teaching him to stop from my seat as well right before I use both reins. One rein stops arent for every stop but its good to know you have practiced them and your horse responds.

[jmtw]

In regards to the one-rein stop: if you're riding down a trail, thick forest on both sides, and the horse spooks or whatever, how do you run him in a circle when there isn't room to even turn around? I don't think aiming for a tree is a viable option. Knee caps and trees really don't get along.

How would you use the one-rein stop in that situation?
The reason I ask, is this is Mississippi, not Florida. All the trails I ride on are heavily wooded, and generally narrow. I've never tried a one-rein stop. Mainly, from experience (and no, I do not pretend to even have a fraction of the experience y'all have), a horse doesn't need to look where it's going to be able to run.

Maybe I'm confused.... but seems like it'd only work in a pasture, or large space.

[CarolU]

Joey, if you have trained the stop, it takes perhaps one step or two to one side to stop the horse. The big circle I described is with an untrained runaway, and I'm afraid you might have to ride it until you find a big enough area to turn in. You will not be able to stop it pulling on both reins either - unless you do small jerk and release, jerk and release. If you apply steady pressure to both reins, the horse will just run with it.

What you need to do is train the horse to spook-in-place, where they startle, and then relax - and YOU have everything to do with this. If YOU instantly relax (oh, just a bird), they will follow your lead. You train this originally at home in a small coral or round pen, and work your way up to uncontrolled areas as the horse's confidence in you grows - and as your confidence to relax with a spook grows.

[Cindy]

I am not getting into this arguement, I have stated how I train and that the one rein stop is not for me and I do not agree with it's use to stop a horse. If ya'll want to use it, that is fine. BUT, Carol, in answer to your question to Donnie, yes, I teach the horses to stop with two reins and they do it every time. To ask a question like that is to imply that the classic training that has been used for hundreds of years to teach horses simply does not work. It does. My horses stop. They stop every time they are asked to stop. And it has nothing to do with turning their heads. You want Donnie to not put down your training methods but at the same time you imply that other methods do not work. I assure you, they do.

[Pasogirlz]

Some of my observations:
Each trainer has their own special way of going about things.
Each horse has a special way of traveling/thinking/learning.
You have to find the right combination for each one.

I never realized how much difference a trainer can make.
And how a different trainer can get something so totally different from a horse than the trainer before. It is really amazing to me.

[CarolU]

I am not getting into this arguement, I have stated how I train and that the one rein stop is not for me and I do not agree with it's use to stop a horse. If ya'll want to use it, that is fine. BUT, Carol, in answer to your question to Donnie, yes, I teach the horses to stop with two reins and they do it every time. To ask a question like that is to imply that the classic training that has been used for hundreds of years to teach horses simply does not work. It does. My horses stop. They stop every time they are asked to stop. And it has nothing to do with turning their heads. You want Donnie to not put down your training methods but at the same time you imply that other methods do not work. I assure you, they do.

No need to get defensive Cindy. In my original post I agreed that there are different methods. You asked about the one-rein stop and how it works, all I was doing was answering that. My question for Don, and I guess you if you're answering for him, is HOW DO YOU TRAIN the two rein stop so it works? I have seen countless horses that run through a two-rein stop. Obviously yours do not. This is an education forum....so, HOW do you teach the two-rein stop so the horse doesn't get behind the bit and run away with its owner?

Go to horsecity.com and do a search on runaways...you'll read LOTS of stories of horses running through, even very harsh bits.

[Cindy]

You think THAT was defensive? Have you not read what you write? Nevermind.

I train the horse to stop with two reins by training it to move away from pressure. I will not get on a horse until it knows how to stop with two reins. My horses do not need the bit to stop. They are trained this with the Jaquima and then the information is transfered to the bit much later. They will not run through whatever it is that they are being ridden with because they are trained to listen to the rider and to move away from the pressure whenever and wherever it is applied. They are also trained the spook in place that you describe very well above. They are just not trained to stop by being turned. They are trained to turn when being turned and to stop when being stopped. It's a fairly simple and straightforward method without a gimmick to be had.

[Pasogirlz]

Oh Good question Carol. 8-)

[Lynn L.]

As to the one rein stop:

The reason it is taught is that most people when they are on a runaway horse (or one they are frightened of) tense up and pull back with both reins. This actually allows the horse to "power up" with his rear end and engage it. By putting all the power on the back end, the horse can run off, rear or buck depending on his inclination. My boy used to get nervous and if you pulled back with both reins would rear and walk on his back legs. (even with trainers) This was not a behavior that I wanted!!

By using one rein to bend the horse's head around, the horse will disengage his back end and you take his power away. This said there are still many caveats. One, you have to practice this at the halt, then walk, then corto, then canter then gallop. If you don't practice enough, it is easier for the horse to ignore you and take off. Secondly, the idea is to bend the horse to a stop in the first one to two steps of taking off. That means the rider has to get the situation immediately and do the right thing quickly. If you wait too long to bend the horse, you can flip a horse over by jerking his head around. Also, my gelding is a former stallion with a stallion neck. If he doesn't want to bend his neck, there is nothing I can do about it. Which gets back to being able to bend the neck in the first two steps or kiss it goodbye! Some trainers are now advocating pulling more "up" on the rein instead of bending the horse to reduce the risk of flipping the horse. However, either way, you have to train your horse to understand this cue before it will have any effect.

I think one rein stops are a great tool. While I am "retraining" my boy, there have been times that I could not get him to stop even from a walk. By fighting with him with both reins, he would get more balistic and start hopping like he would rear. In those situations, I would revert back to a one rein stop and try to get his brain back with me. I also think for more amateur people like myself, it is a good back up when used properly.

With all that said, even trainers like Clinton Anderson will tell you that if you are on the side of the grand canyon and your horse takes off and you have to do a one rein stop you are going to die. (He actually said that on one of the shows. His sense of humor is developing.) Basically, you weren't to the point where the horse should have been that situation.

The one rein stop is a starting point and an emergency brake if used properly. I have used it as an emergency brake and it worked. If a person wants to teach it to their horse and themselves, it can be a great tool. It is not a necessity for a horse to learn, but in a collection of tools to use with a horse, it is one option to be considered.

[Cindy]

The reason it is taught is that most people when they are on a runaway horse (or one they are frightened of) tense up and pull back with both reins. This actually allows the horse to "power up" with his rear end and engage it. By putting all the power on the back end, the horse can run off, rear or buck depending on his inclination. My boy used to get nervous and if you pulled back with both reins would rear and walk on his back legs. (even with trainers) This was not a behavior that I wanted!!


Thankyou, you have made my point. The reason that your horse did not stop was because he was never taught to stop with two reins from the begining. If the natural inclination of people is to use both reins in panic situation AND if the one rein stop will "get you killed" if you are in a hairy spot and need to stop, why would one not teach the horse to stop with two reins in the first place?

Teaching the horse to stop is teaching it to stop regardless of the cue that you give to the horse in order to tell it to stop. If the horse does not want to do as you ask, all the cues in the world will not get it to. The only reason they stop at all is that for some reason they are willing to bend to our wills instead of just killing us as they could if they wanted to. So, as I said before, one rein or two, just teach the damn things to stop. One thing I can guarantee you is that if the horse does not want to stop and has not been taught to stop, the one rein method WILL NOT stop it any more than the two rein method will.

[CarolU]

Actually Cindy, the one rein stop WILL bend a runaway horse in a circle and slow and stop him. It may not the one horse you mentioned, but it DOES work. I use it to retrain runaways quite frequently. And I'm definately not alone in this, could name dozens of professional trainers (Ed and Patti here come easily to mind) who do the same thing.

What I don't understand, and would appreciate you explaining, is for the horse Lynn mentioned, how you would retrain it to stop with two reins? It has a very bad learned behavior and I've seen dozens just like this. They KNOW they can run through two reins.

[Cindy]

Carol, yes, turning the horse's head and turning in a circle will stop most horses eventually. It is a practice that I learned when I was about 10. It is nothing new. It is not, however, how I want to teach my horses to stop. I would rather teach them to stop correctly from the begining. And it will also NOT stop a horse that has truely learned to bolt.

To teach Lynn's horse to stop I would most definitely start with flexing to the side and getting the horse to bend and give to the reins. I would also, while I was doing that teach him to give in the middle and back off the rein pressure. If I did not do this in addition to teaching him to bend to the side, I would not be doing my job fully.

What you don't seem to understand, Carol, is that I have no problem with how YOU want to teach a horse to stop. Donnie does, I do not. What I have said is that that is not how I will teach a horse to stop. This is not to say that I do not use this manuver when training my horses. I have already stated that I did. And that it is great for teaching the horse to flex and give to the side. And in order to train a horse to stop or to do anything else with control, this is most definitely necessary. What I have said is that it is not how MY horses learn to stop. MY horses learn to stop with two reins. From the begining. And they all STOP.

What would have been ideal for Lynn's horse? That he was properly taught to stop from the begining and never developed the problem in the first place. THAT, Carol is my goal for all horses. That they learn it the right way the first time and don't need to be fixed.

[Primroseddp]

Dear Carol , i don't need Cindy or anyone else to answer or defend me or what i say , and that is not what Cindy was doing , my reason for answering this is i have sat and read what yall have told people what to do and how to fix there problems and it seems that every time the one rein stop is the answer, i sorry its not , i never said i did not use it but on the other hand i don't tell anyone to do something like that unless i know for sure what kind of exp they have and what the horse is like as a pro you have to care about that person and the horse and making sure everyone is safe and happy at the end of the day personally i really do not care how you stop a horse just stop. My horses do not run through a bit because there not taught in one mine are taught to stop in a halter does not matter whether a firecracker is going off under them or a romancandle is being fire off of there back which is often done in clincs and everyday training , this is not just a trainers forum it is for everybody and so you have or should be gaurded what you tell them to do because most of the time you really do not know them or there horse, as far as am i a trainer since the age of 8 i was learning to train and trained with some of the best trainers in the world, and this problem i have seen with rockie mountain, united mountain. quarter horse , arabs, draft horses, foxtrotters,barrelhorses , pole horses, walkers etc it is not just the breed, this is not being defensive just the plain ole truth, i really do not now you but .I, have found that the people that scream the loudest or talk the loudest , well i will just say my clients and horses speak for themselves and for me.. Thanks for listening just a thought

PS the reason I did not anwer earler was that i was out training and ahve not had the time to be on the computor

[stella]

Well, I have to agree mostly with Cindy on this one. The one-reined stop is nothing new, and I also learned it about 10, "refreshing" hack horses.

I also start with teaching a horse to stop square, but primarily using my seat, and just a BIT of reins....BOTH reins. Its important the horse stop square, with the BACK LEGS FIRST...always,always,always. I also drop my hands for the walk, with some seat, muscles relaxation, for the horse to relax(think thats what Carol was describing).

Other than twenty plus years ago, having an already Under Saddle horse or 2 (literally, likely just 2 that I remember)sent for slowing down/heavymouth problems, I've never had a problem with a Paso bolting off, or being a runaway, or anything like that.
But I like teaching self-carriage, with the horse not LITERALLY ON the bit, light as possible, mostly RELEASE, use of the indirect rein....and trust trust trust......
If you spend the time on the foundation, so they trust you....you use your seat and leg...if something scares them, they may prop or prance a step or two, but a calm seat and lowered reinback should reassure them to relax and stop or walk. The main thing is to break the learning down into SUCH tiny steps and build, that the horse never feels overwhelmed. If you've done that from the beginning, you remain the very reassuring positive leader for your horse. I didnt even entertain the idea of any of my horses running away, until I read this?
But yes, I go with the 2 reins!

[CarolU]

Well, I see Cindy really isn't as far out as all the arguing would make it seem. I read through all the posts again Don and don't see where anyone was screaming, or where any of us said the one rein stop was anything new. I'm not sure how some things get read in to posts, but they do.

I also thought Patti did a very good job describing how it is trained, so this is not telling anyone to do something without giving them instruction in HOW to do it.

To be honest, at this end, I don't see why there was any arguement at all. We all use a one-rein stop when/if needed, we all train horses to stop. We're really not far so far apart, when it comes right down to it, because you use what works.

[motorgypsy]

This is so interesting! Thank you all so much for the great information. We amatuers can use all the help we can get!

First of all - yes Cindy's horses stop with two reins, one rein or seat cue. We have three of them and ride two regularly and we ride them everywhere - parades, hunter pace, largo race, allbreed shows, endurance LD and so on. So we do have first hand experience with her "product"! I have to give BarbP's trainer John credit for a tune up also. They are seriously great riding horses. ;-) ;-)

Now back to the one rein stop. Our second paso fino had one month of professional training. (Yes she was a blue light special so to speak) We had no idea what one month meant. We only knew we could ride her with no problems, she had wonderful gait, but she had bad ground manners and was very hot and nervous. Well it turned out she had no whoa either. It wasn't a serious problem for us because we rode with other horses and she's stop with them but it was a problem we realized we needed to solve. First we tried a snaffle bit. She hated it. Then we went to a Kimberwick with a low port curb mouthpiece. She was much better but still no whoa. Then we read on a reining webiste that reining trainers taught a horse to stop by running them straight at a barn. Well we did that and she would one rein stop just fine after a few practice runs. But out trails are pig trails that are about 8 inches wide lined with trees and no way a one rein stop is going to work on that. So we went to a Myler bit with a comfort mouthpiece and short shank. Amazing! She finally figured out what we wanted! She now does a straight line stop with two reins with pinkie touch.

Now Chinook by the way can indeed run at a full gallop with her head on her butt. We've seen her do it but that's another story. She has a fantastic whoa from seat cue or reins though and always has - it just used to be very temporary.

OK next case - Bonnie was 17 when we got her and she had two speeds - stop and gallop. The only way to stop her in a gallop was to run her into a fence. No she didn't hit it. She just stopped. Again we tried several bits on her and none had any affect until we tried the Rutledge Roper bit recommended by a lady we know who does cattle drives with a QH who was nuts to chase cattle. Funny thing - she loves the bit which doesn't use the mouthpiece at all for cueing - just chin chain and poll. A couple of little pinky tugs and she stops like a dream. Sometimes they just don't get what you want, I think. And sometimes they need a bit, bosal, jacima, whatever, they can't ignore - not one that hurts or injures them - just one they notice. It may actually be more comfortable than the one they are accustomed to - just different.

Now back to the ones who won't turn. Our stallion is the only one we've ridden who refused to turn once when he was interested in challenging a two year old thoroughbred colt in a nearby paddock. This was the first time I ever rode him and he must have thought I was nuts beause I was yanking his head back and forth, kicking him with my legs, screaming at him and flapping around like a chicken with his head cut off. After five minutes he gave it up and hasn't tried it again in four years. But I will never forget that feeling of helplessness and it is one we all need to experience once to keep us humble and appreciative of their power.

What to do with a horse who wants to go too fast or who bolts? Well what worked with our mares was speed shows and endurance LD rides. Suddenly it was no long naughty to run fast or go far and mares are very logical anyway. So although she likes to go fast she no longer tries to do so out of orneryness. The other thing it did was teach me how to ride a horse at full gallop and enjoy it and no longer fear it - which also helps a lot because when they know it doesn't scare you it's not nearly as much fun for them.

So our recommendation in addtion to teaching every kind of stop imaginable is to find a bit they like and notice (or bosal or whatever) and to learn to ride at a full gallop and enjoy it so your horse doesn't just associate it with flight and fear but with joy and praise when he/she does it on command and stops on command.

So does a one reins stop work? Sure. Do we prefer it? Nope.

[CarolU]

Okay...case in point of when a one rein stop would have helped you. In the 2004 Nationals Largo race, one of your mares took off bucking at the starting line and you were DQ'd. Unless I'm mistaking, that horse was trained only with a two rein stop. If she had been trained with a one rein stop, you would have pulled her head around at the first sign of any problem (and they are trianed to RELAX in the one-rein stop), but there could have have been no running off or bucking, and you would not have been DQ'd.

I am not saying this to be argumentative, just to point out a good use of a one-rein stop.

[Primroseddp]

Carol honey what i am saying is just because you tell people what to do does not mean they can do it . I have seen many people who thinks there riding skill is far far better than it is ,you have to be careful who your telling what to do , which i proved at a clinic in ILL at Mary Prices Ranch last summer. And as far as the screaming , you do it in the way of being very cutting and sarcastic jez read your own post !!!!

[CarolU]

Well, if you are reading my posts as cutting and sarcastic, I am sorry...that is not how they are meant at all. When I asked you a question such as: What then would you tell someone on a runaway how to stop their horse? - that is just what it is, a question - no sarcasm meant. If you, especially being a professional trainer, tell them NOT to use a one-rein stop as an emergency brake, then you really need to offer them an alternative. People ask these questions because they need help.

To be totally honest - if you will please take it this way - what I saw happen was first Cindy and then you 'shoot holes' in Patti and Ed's advice and discussion about the one-rein stop, without offering any alternative. It is very easy to stand back and critisize what others do - in this case advise people - compared to stepping forward and opening yourself up to critisism. You know, when this happens, people become gun-shy about offering suggestions and quit helping (which I really hope doesn't happen). And people who need to ask for help are afraid to because it may start another arguement.

When you make a statement like:

Cindy i totally agree with you , to many people worry about what i call a joke , the one rein stop , i call it a joke because from what i have seen a lot of people on this forum belive that a one rein stop is the cure for every thing to stop to go , and in reality it can cause more problems then helping , manly with people that don.t know how to do it right and to tell people to do it with out them knowing how is a JOKE !!!!! Thanks Cindy i have wanted to say this for months now

Don, how do you expect people to react? That was very rude and there was nothing constructive in that post, no alternate given. Patti and Ed and myself all TRIED to say that both stop methods are good and needed. It was you who called the one-rein method "a joke". Patti and Ed are both full-time professional trainers, I am a part time professional. Do you think it appropriate to call our methods "Jokes?? Don't you think people will be a little (maybe a lot) afraid to suggest anything in the future if you are going to come on here and call it and then a joke? The one-rein stop is a well recognized and accepted training practice for hundreds of other trainers. If you feel and train differently that is fine, it is fine to come here and teach your alternative so people have a choice, but what you did was inappropriate. JMHO

[Cindy]

Okay...case in point of when a one rein stop would have helped you. In the 2004 Nationals Largo race, one of your mares took off bucking at the starting line and you were DQ'd. Unless I'm mistaking, that horse was trained only with a two rein stop. If she had been trained with a one rein stop, you would have pulled her head around at the first sign of any problem (and they are trianed to RELAX in the one-rein stop), but there could have have been no running off or bucking, and you would not have been DQ'd.


Carol, since I trained this horse I can tell you that had they used EITHER two reins or one rein to stop this horse, she would have stopped. In fact, SHE DID. What I believe happened, and please correct me if I am wrong, MGs, is that this was such a suprise from this horse that the rider was indeed caught offguard. If I recall, the horse was stopped, noone fell off, nothing was out of control. The horse simply did a bad thing. Or are you telling me that you can stop a horse from acting like a horse BEFORE THEY DO IT by using a one rein stop. Because if that is what you are saying, you are in fantasy land. Horses will be horses, the point is that we control this horseness. Which was done by the rider in this situation. So I really don't see your point. They use a two rein stop to stop the horse and it worked.

"To be totally honest - if you will please take it this way - what I saw happen was first Cindy and then you 'shoot holes' in Patti and Ed's advice and discussion about the one-rein stop, without offering any alternative."



EXCUSE ME!!!! Ed and Patti and I were having a very interesting and adult conversation which was TOTALLY resolved with ABSOLUTELY no disrespect and with TOTAL professional courtesy before YOU ever read the thread. That we disagreed on a training approach does in no way reflect a lack of respect for each other's opinon. So keep your argument BS to yourself and do not involve those of us who were not at all disrespectful of others. THANKYOU.

[CarolU]

Cindy, maybe you need to relook at your posts in the light of "professional respect" because others felt you were quite rude - and you are right, I was not involved at that point. I personally felt Don was very rude.

What I saw of the horse from the stands, was she pulled her head under behind the bit and took off with a few bucks. Yes, she did stop after a few bucks, but that is still after a few bucks. She was stopped behind the starting line when she started this. That is the whole point of an emergency stop, when you first sense the horse getting out of control, to get it IN control fast.

[CarolU]

BTW - I don't really see any need to argue this any longer.

[Cindy]

cowboy ed
Forum Leader


Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 496
Location: sneads, florida
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes, cindy, no right or wrong, just different!
_________________
Run wide open, and don't look back!


Carol, this is how our discussion ended. I don't know who YOU think thought that I was rude, but obviously the people who were having the discussion got along GREAT. That is BEFORE YOU AND DONNIE JOINED IN.

As far as the horse in question, you just reiterrated what I said happened. The horse did something wrong and when given a signal to stop this behaviour, she stopped.

I don't really see any need to argue this any longer

GOOD!!! I was not argueing before you started dragging my name through the mud.

[Primroseddp]

First and foremost if anyone that read my statement thought i was rude i am truly sorry , it was not meant to insult but i am quite blunt, Let me say this first Cindy i have known for 8 years and truly respect her ability with a horse, I have know Patti for a long time and truly respect her , and Mitster Ed i do not know but i respected and unserstand what he teaches been there and got the tshirt , after all the four of us are all pros and do it for a living all day everyday and into the night ,we live everyday what we say we don't read about we do it , i guess what i am trying to get across most is we have to be carefull what we as pros tell people who do not have our abiltiy , i will say what my wife said it is easy to see what we do but hard to do it , somethings can get people hurt by what we say and do by trying to copy what we do . and as for the horse at Nat , you now i never met a person that new it all and was perfect , and dang sure never met a horse that is perfect, point is the horse stopped , and as far as being rude honey uh uh uh.

PS I would always encourage a person to try to work there problem out a runaway is not one of them as it can truly get someone hurt real bad , but thats what trainers or for.

[Primroseddp]

PLease let me say Cind, Patti, and Ed i am sorry for calling what you told the person to do a joke, i had just gotten back from the Ill Horse Fair and watch Chris Cox land on his behind doing a one rein stop and it struck a nerve, i by no means meant to start an arguement are offend anyone

Again Cindy,Patti,and Ed i am sorry

[cowboy ed]

interesting comments, don. my wife says it like this, "you have to quit making this stuff look so easy, because it really isnt." i guess that makes sense!

i take my training work very seriously. it is so important to me for the horses that i work with to be safe for their owners to handle. i think that should be the primary goal of any trainer. also, like you mentioned, i learn new things about horses almost everyday. i know i will never learn it all, but it wont be from a lack of trying!

[Primroseddp]

Thanks Ed I totally agree it is our job to be honest with our clients as well as the horses we train,

[motorgypsy]

OK guys - we less gifted do not learn anything if you guys squabble so cut it out and get back on task please!! All this great information you are so generously sharing is keeping geezers like us from getting hurt!!

Back to the largo race two years ago. I was riding a mare that I had only owned for a couple of months but that I had ridden in several allbreed shows and she was an angel. Right before the race Kyle developed a major migraine headache - so severe that I had to take him and his horse back to the horse trailer, tie her up and make sure he was OK, then ride like crazy to get back in time for the race. So I was massively distracted, stressed out and worried and really not paying any attention to the horse. When we started the race they played this really loud race music and dropped a handkerchief and my mare immediately started bucking. I was totally floored because she had never done anything like this previously. I immediately corrected her but she moved sideways and almost mowed down a judge. This is not looked upon favorably so we were indeed DQ'd but she had already stopped and was standing there looking like an angel when the ring steward came over to us and told us we were DQ'd. So the problem was my distraction, not her lack of training because as soon as I corrected her and asked her to stop she did.

She will stop on a seat cue or just dropping the reins or on a one rein or a two rein but she was protesting my ignoring her and she did indeed get my atttention. We then went out and worked in an arena for an hour and she was perfect.

I will say that she pulled this one more time in a largo race at a different show but this time I was prepared and yanked her little butt around in a tight circle until she calmed down and stopped immediately with her head on her butt I might add. Her problem is not enough saddle time, not her training because she is a fabulous ride and very push button - but she's an alpha mare and will test you.

You see this is the difference between an amateur and a pro. A pro would have automatically sensed her distress and headed it off before she blew 99% of the time. I was too slow to prevent it.

[Pam M]

Thank you primroseddp. As a client, I appreciate honesty, even if it hurts. I learned the hard way - one trainer told me my horse was ready for anything. Since I left that trainer that horse has thrown me at least 20 times (I quit counting!) and is not real clear on the "stop right now" command. A second trainer helped fix the damage but we're still a work in progress. We just went through a "sit and spin" 2 weeks ago and we've been working at this riding on the roads thing for 3 years now!

I took another horse - a much worse behaved horse - to a good trainer (Cindy G, in case you're interested) and she behaves far better than I ever expected of her. If I tell her to stop, she stops. Period.

So...do I ride my "mellow" 8 y.o. QH who's had 120 days "professional" training or my high-strung 6 y.o. Paso who had 60 days? Ummm, Paso usually wins - I just trust her training better. I'm not the best rider - I have to trust the horse's knowledge to some extent.

[motorgypsy]

We too really appreciate the honesty we've gotten from all the people we've bought horses from. We knew exactly what we were buying as far as the owner or trainer knew each time we bought a horse. We just like the spicier ones for some dumb reason!!

[motorgypsy]

Now back to the 13 year old stallion. They remember an amazing amount.

Our stallion was purchased by us at age 8. He was shown bella forma and pleasure AO as a three year old and perhaps four. After that his owner because ill and died and the other owner basically made him a pasture ornament until he decided that he was too good to just sit around and eat and sold him to us. He hadn't been ridden for probably four years when we got on him and other than a five minute arguement because of another colt next door he was perfect. We rode him for two miles around a block in the burbs with a stallion and two other mares, with cars and dogs and he was an angel with a gait to die for. This is why we bought him. They DO remember their training.

[Edurne]

How to stop a runaway horse ?.........BET ON IT

[Mellifluous]

Just my two cents on this one rein stopping business - as one of the non-trainer types who could get myself hurt with my ignorance. I set my young horse to a trainer - Ed :D . Part of the training package was that Ed would teach me what I need to know to handle my horse safely. He has emphasized the importance of groundwork to me and showed me what he does so that I can CONTINUE to do it when Phoebe gets home. He has shown me what I need to do when I ride Phoebe, including lateral flexion and the one-rein stop. When she shows the first sign of getting uptight I can flex her and she will settle right down. She will also STOP with one rein, not circle. If she circles then I am doing something wrong like keeping my heel on her side out of my instinct to clamp on when a horse gets wound up with me. Now, mind you I have not tested it on a bolting horse - but I have seen that it does work. They key is teaching your horse the one rein stop, not just going out and doing it with a horse that has not a clue what you are asking.

I have been practicing the groundwork and fine tuning flexing with Lexi. She is a good patient guinea pig while I get the hang of it for when Phoebe comes home. I can't wait to work with her and do the ground work exercises with my young gelding. I feel that groundwork has a LOT of merit! Part of my ignorance was not doing any real groundwork with my horses. Especially the ones that I have/had that were trained. I think that I could have solved a good many issues they were having under saddle.

Oh, and one more thing on the flexing. I think that many times, it is abused and becomes a punishment. People stop doing it correctly and just whip their horses heads from side to side as fast as they can. I hate seeing that in the lineup at a show.

I guess in the end - if you are not experienced with training horses, and have one that is dangerous or could become such - send it to someone who is a professional and can work your horse through it's problems and teach you what you need to be doing different. I am a big fan of continuing education. I firmly believe that if you are not learning, you are dying. It can pay off to learn from others...at least listen even if you don't agree.

Sorry if this hits anyone wrong.

[jmtw]

Guys, I appreciate the responses and the information, as well as advice.

I'll see if I can take all these pieces and make something out of it. :smile:

[motorgypsy]

Just remember - many of these pieces fit different puzzles!!! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

[Cindy]

That was a good one, Edurne. :D

Donnie, thanks for the apology but you did not need to include me. Iwas not offended. And I think you brought up some very good issues. Glad we are all back on track. There is some great food for thought in this thread. Thanks to all of you for answering my query about the one rein stop. I do believe that I understand why you use it even if I don't think that it is what I would choose to teach a horse to stop. As I said before, as long as they stop. That's the ticket.

Pam, I am always glad to hear how well you and the princess are doing together. I am very proud of how she is turning out.

[motorgypsy]

Cindy as a teen and a very incompetant rider (lots of practice - just no talent) I did learn another very quick way to get a horse to stop. Since I tended to fall off all the time and get runaway with all the time I learned the trick of grabbing around the neck of the horse with arms and legs. A horse will generally stop when a human is hanging under their neck with arms and legs wrapped around it.

[Cindy]

But if they don't stop, you are in trouble. Not a very good place to ride the horse from. :lol:

When I was a kid, I would ride the horses at the boarding barn whose owners seemed to have forgotten that they existed. There was one little old Quarter Horse mare there. At the barn, there were two large paddocks with a aillesway(sp) between them. One day, I was in one of the padddocks helping the instructor teach a lesson. This mare was turned out in the other paddock. She was not being chased, she was in there alone. I turned around just in time to see her clear a 5 foot fence just cause she wanted to go somewhere else. Needless to say, I started riding and jumping her.

One day, my Dad came out to see me ride. He had never seen me jump before so I was riding this mare and showing how well I could jump. This mare had never refused a fence with me before. So, I headed for our first jump and she stopped dead. I ended up in exactly that position. Hanging on to her neck with both arms and both legs and just laughing my head off. Finally, I was laughing so hard that I just let go and ended up on the ground in front of her on my back still laughing. I don't think my Dad was too impressed. But I just thought it was the funniest thing in the world.

[motorgypsy]

Oh that is too funny!

I got really good at hanging on though. My best friend was in the rumble seat when we got runaway with and when the mare took a sharp right into the barn area she flew into the flower bed and I ended up in the simian baby position under the neck. We really laughed about it but she got some bruises.

[Lynn L.]

I was riding my goofy gelding one day in my pasture which has some pine trees in it. We were really working on a two rein stops when a tree branch fell. Well, my boy took off like someone was trying to kill him. All those times of Parelli kicked in and I automatically pulled one rein to the side and he stopped! (Could have floored me. I thought I was going to die. :oops: ) I believe had I tried a two rein stop he would still be running. This boy had been shown for years, and definitely knows what a two rein stop is. However, he just gets nuts sometimes and will not stop with one. That is when he starts rearing. I prefer a two rein stop, but I sure am glad that I have options.

Thanks for the great discussion guys! I love reading all the opinions.

[motorgypsy]

Lynn L - I LOVE your avatar? What kind of kitties??

We're very pragmatic riders. If one thing doesn't work we try another. But I can't recommend any more strongly that you learn to ride a horse in a full gallop and become comfortable with it and the horse is comfortable with it and responds to all cues. It could save your life one day.

[Lynn L.]

Hi KyleS,

Those are my two new Devon Rex kittens. They are five month old brothers. They are usually into everything and do their best to prevent me from working!