discussion question -- trocha/trote vs paso fino

[reuben T]

I come across 3 ideas.

1) trocha horse in general is not as smooth a ride as paso fino

2) trocha horse is capable of more endurance than paso fino

3) trocha may handle rough trails better

One person I talked to in colombia said they prefered trocha for the endurance, and was doing 10-12 hour a day rides, said the PF couldn't keep up in endurance.
(that was in chat on the old PF.com)
i know opinons are based on personal experience and it takes a whole lot of getting around to experience enough different types of horses to have a really balanced opinion, but just wondering, does anyone here know more about their differences. and maybe how the trote galope compares.
And which one handles a rough trail the best.
Some areas don't have rough trails, but as the terrien gets steeper the trails get rougher, and commenly the most beautiful places to visit are also some of the roughest to get to.

[Brigitte]

Hmm interesting.
Ok..My opinion:
Trocha can be just as smooth as Paso Fino, depending on the fino and trocha horse.

If they are capable of more endurance..I wouldn't know, but I would think so. In cabalgatas they prefer to take trochador or TyG horses over fino.

I think too that trocha handle rough trails better, Mar wants to go in trocha when we're on the trails climbing mountains and where there are many rocks. And it is said that when a fino relaxes, they start to trocha..or want to trocha

The TyG I think would be about the same for endurance and handling rough terrain, but from the TyG I rode I'd say trocha is smoother, then again there are some who have a very smooth trote.

But overall I'd prefer trocha for trails and endurance.

[Jasfino]

I am sure Jasper has been in trocha and can affirm that it is a very smooth ride.

[cowboy ed]

reuben, for what its worth, my somewhat educated opinion is this:

(1) trocha is not as smooth as paso fino, but a lot smoother than most trotting breeds

(2) and (3) endurance ability and the ability to handle rough terrain depend far more on the individual horse's athletic ability regardless of breed or modality

[AJ]

A trocha horse can be as smooth as a paso fino.

Here is the video of a trochadora mare

www.pasopedigree.com/video/trochamares.wmv

[dana]

Wow! nice video, AJM and beautiful horse!

dana

[Brigitte]

Very nice video! Thanks for sharing

[Terry Wallace]

Yep...trocha can be just as smooth as PF. Yes...horses were especially bred for trocha, as they could indeed "go farther" .....and last longer.
Read about why Meridian Meadows looked for, and imported horses that could trocha and/or were trocha champions such as Oro Negro for example. They wanted horses for cattle work, and horses that would be able to last all day long.

There is MUCH trocha blood in Paso Finos of certain lines. Not to mention that many horses started out in trocha, and ended up PF with training (well documented by Fabio Ochoa in his two volumes of Mi Vida En El Mundo de los Caballos).

I know there will be some who will reply here that there is no "trocha blood" in Paso Finos, and that is very incorrect. This is also well documented in the pedigrees shown in the above book. Do your "homework" and you will find lots of info on the subject. You will also find how many attempt to "sweep such things" under the rug so to speak.... ;-)

To me, trocha is not neccessarily a BAD thing..... To me, it makes for a horse with even MORE talent, when it can trocha or gait, depending on what the rider is asking for.

[Barbwire]

That was a fantastic video to learn from, the slo-mo part was awesome. Thank you for posting the link.

[SandyMM]

I know there will be some who will reply here that there is no "trocha blood" in Paso Finos, and that is very incorrect
There is a _ton_ of trocha blood in the American 'Paso Fino'... Go to any show, do some sol-motion filming and go back and study.... The day of the naturally 4 beat even gaited Paso Fino show horse in this country is fading....

Nothing wrong with trocha - just don't make excuses and call it Paso Fino.
The Puerto Rican Paso Fino has focused on the purely even 4 beat gait and claims the name of Paso Fino for both their breed and their signature gait.

Some well-known trocha producers...
Hilachas
Mahoma
Oro Negro

Doesn't mean they produced _all_ trocha, but I have seen 3rd generation show inclinations to trocha from some of these bloodlines even when everything else except that direct line was, and produced, even 4 beat...

[motorgypsy]

Andres Mejia (who is I think now in Colombia) told us that the trocha horses were as smooth as the paso fino horses. Think of the paso fino gait as a pencil balancing on its point. The paso fino gait is the dead center between the pace and the trot. A good trocha horse is probably closer to the paso fino gait than to the trot so it is still a well supported four beat gait - just not as even. The thing is - trocha can vary from almost trot to almost paso fino. Paso fino cannot. Paso fino is one point in the gait spectrum. Trocha is many many points. A lot of the other gaited breeds allow deviation from the center point for acceptable gait. We don't. We expect perfection all the time but the horse gets tired and will either canter, walk or shift to an uneven four beat gait. That uneven fourbeat gait will be either slightly diagonal or slightly lateral. Puerto Rico and Colombia used to allow a slightly lateral or pacey four beat gait but I think they are now aiming for the center point gait also. check the old gait descriptions.

Supposedly the trocha gait is a more relaxed gait but I suspect it depends on the horse because I've seen some who relax in a lateral four beat also. I do know that when we do LD endurance we listen to the horse and allow them to change modalities when they get tired. It's not that they don't do the gait we ask for - it's just that we allow them to change gaits in different terrain or when tired.

I think the reason for the trocha horse having more endurance is probably the fact that they originated in the mountains whereas the more lateral Colombian horses from what I understand originated in the flatlands. Colombian horses are more likely to be trocha and Colombian horses were working horses, not just for show so they would again more likely breed for endurance.

Now back to training for paso fino gait. Many younsters are more diagonal as they go through physical changes but they become naturally paso fino when grown and their muscles strengthened. This is not training the gait. What we want to avoid breeding is horses who really don't paso fino without help such as shoes on two feet and things like that - those who do have to have the gait trained. In some cases the horse can and does do the gait naturally but doesn't yet know the cue. In other cases the horse just isn't very good at it. Consider again that the trocha IS a four beat gait as is the andadura and if the horse can do ANY four beat gait it is very likely that they will do the paso fino once they figure out how to do it and strengthen the appropriate muscles. A true trotting horse just doesn't do a four beat.

We'd like to see all of us breed to horses who prefer paso fino but most of all avoid breeding horses who prefer to trot or pace over the four beat gait. Because if we aren't careful and breed these horses we will be like the saddlebreds and iceys - have a significant part of our breed that just doesn't do any fourbeat gait.

As far as trocha handling rough trails - they were bred for the mountains but - our PPR Colombian half and half is as agile as they come and can go forever so we really think it depends on the individual horse. Some horses just aren't very agile and some are very naturally agile. I'd be more concerned about conformation though because the hyperflexy horse will break down and get injured more easily.

[SandyMM]

We expect perfection all the time but the horse gets tired and will either canter, walk or shift to an uneven four beat gait.
I wish, I wish there were films of the old fino challenges when Dr. Carolyn Zeigler would work the fino stallions for an hour solid - in gait.... Machine gun gait - no.... the powerful, perfectly executed, and elegant Paso Fino gait. Precision, endurance, power, and elegance - that is the fino I would like to see back in the ring - a gait so precise you could see and hear it easily...

[motorgypsy]

Lori West's gelding General is like that - a machine that doesn't quit!

But it takes a lot of work to get a horse in shape to be able to do that for an hour without injury. Sultan, our stallion will gait non stop for an hour like clockwork but I know everntually he'll tire. Chinook on the other hand will kill herself if you let her. You do have to be careful with our guys. Some have too much heart!!!

[LynnG]

The paso fino gait is a recessive trait. If a pure paso fino stallion is crossed with a diagnonal line mare, you will get diagonal-ness in gait.

So you have to not forget to look at the influence of the dam. It amazes me still have stallion names are thrown around as being this or that, without consideration to the mares he has been bred to and dams of his offspring. So breed a paso fino to a trocha gaited mare; yes you'll most likely get strong trocha and mixed gaits in the offspring.

Of purity of gait of early Colombian imports/bred: Mahoma, Baron que tal and Belmonte.

I had owned two Mahoma daughters, Cortesia que tal and Enviadora que tal. both very naturally Paso Fino gaited.

Dave Jones said about Mahoma: "Mahoma is our foundation sire. He’s over thirty years of age, gets a stiff ride every day, doing the pure Paso gait on a loose rein. He can still spin like a reining horse. His conformation would do justice to a horse of any breed though he somewhat resembles a fine Morgan horse."
I had bred to Belmonte several times and saw him person. He would do the pure paso gait at liberty.... and our foals produced gaited very easily.

Dave Jones said: "Our young stallions, Belmonte and Baron, have such strength of gait that they Paso naturally in the pasture. Belmonte has his first colt on the ground and no purer gaited colt exists. So we seem to be on the right track."

My Baron que tal grandson Emperador La Estrella does the Paso gait at liberty in the pasture. Anyone who has seen him in person can attest to that, plus you can hear the 1-2-3-4 solid beat as he passes by. His greatgrandsires are Mahoma and Hilachas, and he also has great mares through every line in his pedigree.

So you can't discount that there are some pure gaited Paso Finos in the past and today, but the majority have been crossed on more diagonally moving "show" lines, which is why we have that prevalent in the breed today. the showring is a measuring tool for how great people think Paso Finos are...that isn't going to change.

So if you can identify horses in a pedigree that are really trocha that don't paso gait easily, and see which parent it came from... you can identify lines of pure gait and ones which more trocha tendencies. Just because a horse is identified as trocha, doesn't necessarily mean both parents are were trocha. So when someone says a stallion produced a trocha offspring...don't negate the mare's equally important genetic influence..good or bad! fino or trocha!