Pedigree question

[jmtw]

Has anyone ever corrected one that was wrong?
Example: pedigree says bay, but horse is a dun.
If so, how much trouble was it?
Thanks.

[Linda Y]

One of mine is wrong too. Says cremello and she is perlino. But I guess that is their general dilute.

[jmtw]

Hi Linda! Nice to see you. :smile:

'Ledo is a dun, he has a very defined and clear line. But his papers say bay.
I was just curious how I could fix it.

[Pasogirlz]

Are you keeping hinm in tact or gelding him? If it costs money and you are gelding him, I wouldn't worry about it too much, but if you plan to breed in the future, might be nice to have that cleared up.

[Terry Wallace]

Yes... I have done a couple. Take photos... and provide an example (of the color)if you can... also, explain WHY it is not what they show....

One of mine was bay to dun. Problem..photo "looked" bay to somebody in the PFHA office... please be aware that some of the people working there, don't have horses, don't know colors, don't know what color produces what, and YES...they are giving it their best GUESS.

If possible... take the photo in summer coat. on a clear day..no shadows on your photos. If you have a dun... show the dun points in close-ups. Explain that one parent is dun, and that is how you got dun (takes a dun to make a dun)... If you have a shoulder stripe or just a shadow... do a close up. close-ups on dorsal, leg bars, etc... I send a one or two page "collage".

The other one I did was chestnut sabino... which the PFHA was calling "roan"... I explained how there was no "roan" horse involved (takes a roan to make a roan).. I included copies of pages from the book
Horse Colors, A Breeder's Prospective...which explained why the horse could not be roan, but was in fact chestnut sabino. Luckily, I had a photo of his grand dam...also a chestnut sabino which was called "roan" by the PFHA... My sabino was a second generation "crop-out" sabino... (neither parent was sabino, but carried the gene) I explained in detail, and got my papers back with sabino pinto on them, instead of roan...

The PFHA NEEDS to revamp the registration applications...for one thing, they list "Albino" ...ain't no such thing as an "albino" horse.... and the color choices are limited..no "shades of " dun for example...

Good Luck!

[jmtw]

No. He's 13 (I doubt gelding would make any difference in his thinking anyway), and he has too good of a bloodline to geld.
And yes, he will be breeding in the future.
I will have to invest in some electric fencing before I get Fred up here, though.
Hi Lori. :smile:

BTW, he has such a wonderful disposition. I'm very proud to have him.
Clarissa, on the other hand, is uh a female dog. First horse I ever met that I couldn't get to like me.

[jmtw]

hmmm. I'll have to research and see about his lineage.
Still, a dun is a dun, to my thinking, whether he looks like a bay or not.
Thanks for your help. :smile:

[Terry Wallace]

Is his color dun, and does he have primitive marking other than a dorsal? Because you CAN have a bay dun...

Is the dorsal at least five shades darker than coat?
If no leg bars are present... and no shoulder shadow, has he produced a dun foal? Is he "muddy" dun..or too dark with smut gene to see leg bars?

[jmtw]

His line is very dark, same color as his bay markings (legs, mane, and tail). his coat is a medium brown.

actually, i'll post a pic for you. best i have that shows the line.
This was taken the day I got him.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/jmtw/paso/SRSToledo3.jpg

[Linda Y]

Looks dun to me. I may be wrong, but I think I see the zebra stripes on the front leg.

[LynnG]

All my bays have dorsals to varying degrees. Two of these bay mares have also produced a grulla when crossed with a black/grulla. Neither have strong leg barring. The red to their coats make them bay in my opinion. They each have a dun "factor" because of the dorsal and obviously a dun ancestor. Many Paso Finos have a dun factor with a dorsal stripe without being registered as a dun.

To me a dun usually has a sandier coat color lacking the red pigment, and usually strong primitive markings beyond the dorsal.

you will have to convince the registrar with photos.

my two cents

[jmtw]

i always thought if they had a line down their back, they were a dun.
so much for my thinking lol

[Tami Pinell]

I have horses here that were registered long before I bought them...
I have a bay with a dorsal (registered bay with no mention of the dorsal),
a medium cream (tan) colored dun with zebra stripes and dorsal (registered buckskin with no mention of any other markings),
a medium cream (tan) colored grulla with dorsal black face, wither bar, and leg bars (registered dun), and a stallion that was born a beautiful light cream dun with a stripe 3-4 inches wide down his rear that is now sooted out so much you can't tell he is anything other than an ugly color (registered dun).....
so I'm not sure if changing his paperwork would help you out any. If you do it, then do it for correction for YOURSELF.... for it would take an act of God to get all the paperwork at the PFHA straightened out on color alone..... I honestly think they should put a photo of the horse on the papers... leave off most of the verbage and let folks make up their own minds.... I for one do not agree on 98% of the registered "black" pasos... if they put in stuff just for dun, they would need to put in a ton on all the other colors.... and that would take a book in itself....
BTW - that's a pretty horse.... ;-)

[jmtw]

Isn't he though (pretty)?
One day, I'll get some better pics and show him off. :smile:

I don't reckon it matters much. I was mainly just curious.

[LynnG]

Here are some of mine...some dun, some "other" and with a dun factor

http://www.geocities.com/gracewoodpasos/images/arianna/ariannaDorsal5_5_04.jpg
chestnut with dun factor - dorsal and shoulder bar

http://www.geocities.com/gracewoodpasos/images/extasis/extasismaja1stdayBehinds.jpg
zebra dun (peanut butter) strong primitive markings
with dun colt

http://www.geocities.com/gracewoodpasos/images/insignia/insigniaSide10_16_04web.jpg
bay with dun factor -- strong dorsal; has produced a grulla colt bred to a black

http://www.geocities.com/gracewoodpasos/images/marisa/marisasideBack7_30_05web.jpg
zebra dun - strong primitive markings

http://www.geocities.com/gracewoodpasos/images/novia/noviaBuckskin8_04.jpg
photo in Summer, registered "dark buckskin" (dam was registered dark buckskin too) granddam was palomino. Sire was black

http://www.geocities.com/gracewoodpasos/images/novia/bugNCSF_05WP_4web.jpg
same "dark Buckskin" mare but photo in October, looks bay

http://www.geocities.com/gracewoodpasos/images/picassa/picassaLeftSide10_04web.jpg
bay mare with distinct dorsal. produced a grulla filly by a grulla stallion

[jmtw]

I meant to ask earlier... What's 'primitive markings'?

goodlooking horses!

[LynnG]

primitive markings are distinct to dun or dun factor horses

zebra striping or leg barring, tortoise mottling on legs (usually backlegs), cobbwebbing on face, shoulder barring or cross, and dorsal stripe on back which often runs down into tail hairs, frosting on mane

[jmtw]

Thanks, Lynn :smile:

[LynnG]

here's a link to common primitive markings on dun paso finos

http://www.geocities.com/unbridledvisions/dunpasos/dunmarkings.html

[jmtw]

I've never noticed stripes, and I dont think he has any frosting.
maybe he's not one. I just thought that if they had the line, they were.

[motorgypsy]

SloughP is a bay dun. He has a wide dorsal, leg bars and shoulder patches but notice how dark he is in the winter. From a photo most people would call him bay because his stripes don't show up in this photo. it's easy to make a mistake.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/sloughpheight.jpg

[motorgypsy]

Duns will have some lighter hair in the mane, usually toward the center, but frosting is something buckskins generally have, not duns. This mare is not a dun but has two inch silver hairs all along her mane on both sides and at the top of her tail.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/CRW_1555.jpg

[sporthorse]

other day at our vets I saw a tiger striped brindle red dun and her similar marked filly suckling who are 3x contrapunto(grey)I will ook up her lines I have her name.

[CarolU]

A tiger striped brindle red dun? Wow..now THAT is some thing I'd like to SEE! (love those red heads!!).

[jmtw]

He has some stripes on his legs. Not as defined as in the photo from the link.
Can't tell cobwebbing. No frosting. And no shoulder stripes.

[Kerry W]

In your stallion's pedigree, the mare Persica del Cabildo has a full brother that is registered as dun. I think that perhaps the dun COULD have come from the mare Persa (their dam), who is registered buckskin. Persica may be dun as well, just not listed as such. Just FYI.