Break through with Noche today

[Boyd R]

Well for those of you that have followed Noche's progress. We had a bit of a breakthrough today. Noche has gone from "try to put that halter on me I'll kick out your teeth" to excellent ground manners. But in the saddle he has not made any improvement. Wants to fight with every que.

Well today I figured Su needed to get her heart started so I through her up on him :roll:
I have been thinking he is very sensitive to ques and that if she was in the saddle and I did my normal ground work with her giving ques that matched that we might get some progress done. well it worked.

This First video is his typical ground manners now.

Click here to watch Ground-work-Noche (http://media.putfile.com/Ground-work-Noche)

This is his typical seat manners. its a little long so be patient loading it.

Click here to watch Noche-Fit-2 (http://media.putfile.com/Noche-Fit-2)

This is more typical fit. A little smaller file

Click here to watch Noche-fit-3 (http://media.putfile.com/Noche-fit-3)

And here he is after Su and I both worked on his ques both from ground and in the seat.

Click here to watch Noche-doing-as-asked (http://media.putfile.com/Noche-doing-as-asked)

We had 6 starts and stops with turns and almost no arguement so I quickly ended it there and let him get untacked and have some carrots for a treat.

[Moniece Dickerson]

Thats WONDERFUL news :D !!You two must be on cloud 9 right about now,you're doing GREAT :D !Your friend,Moniece

[Heidi]

WHAT a difference between the videos!
Heidi

[CarolU]

Weird Boyd. None of your videos played there....but this one did.

http://media.putfile.com/Phorsytia-filmen

I thought it was pretty special...for such a homely horse too!

[cowboy ed]

boyd, i couldnt view the videos either. dont know why.
so, whats the story on this noche horse? how old, how long have you had him, whats his background, etc.?

[Minouri]

This is part of why I love this board. I love how you all share! Thank you!

[motorgypsy]

Boyd the great thing is he looks relaxed and alert in the last clip, not tired or just giving in because he has no other choice. Great job!!

[Boyd R]

Carol and Ed I am not sure what the problem you two are having they seem to work fine.

Ed for his story you may want to do a search for past posts. Though they may have been deleted. For a Quick review, he is about 11 and the meanest horse I have ever seen. He does not get along with our other horses either. He is triple Capichino. I am trying to fix and sell for the owner. Who picked him up in a trade, (his first and last Paso). He had bad knee pain when I picked him up but that has been releived for months now. Ground work went great and fast with him. But get in the saddle and everything was a fight. Ask to go foward he would back up. Stop he would go. Left he would go right. So on. I thought a trail ride would help since we both had the same goal, to stay with the pack, the first mile was backword and the hour and half ride to the trail he sat in the trailer.

I hope last night was the start of something good. I don't know if he will ever get to the point where I could with right mind sell him but at least he can go home and this old man can go out to feed him and not get stomped to death.

[cowboy ed]

boyd, i tried the videos again. it just took a little longer for them to load than i thought.

that horse has a bad stifle in the right leg. that is why he is having those fits. i can see it very plainly, especially in the last video where he finally starts doing better for you.

[baileyholc]

Boyd, that is great. I am so happy it brought tears to my eyes. What next? Are you going to try him on the trail again? Noche is looking good. I am proud that he has come so far with you. Compared to what he was like when you got him and from what I was told about him, he is a different horse now. :yay

[paintedhorizon]

First, he sure is a beautiful horse! Great job!

Second, I don't see the stifle???

Third, great job Boyd!!!! Looks like maybe he just didn't know the cues???

[El Indio Elegante]

Boyd is the horse nochebueno?

[motorgypsy]

Cowboy Ed - please explain what you see so the rest of us will know what to look for in the future. Eddicate us please!!!

[paintedhorizon]

Yep, that's Noche Bueno, that's the horse that Baileyholc first came to us here on APF about going to look at that the person never contacted her back.

[cowboy ed]

well, here is what i see. in the videos where noche is "having a fit", not wanting to go forward, watch the right hind leg. he will do what i call, "go soft" or step easy on it. watch closely and you will see him pick that foot up and kick out with it, like he is agitated and in pain. then, in the video where boyd is riding him and he seems to move willingly, notice the extra long stride with the right hind leg and a very obvious "give" as he moves forward. i have seen several horses with this particular problem. i am guessing that he move pretty well with su on him and boyd cuing from the ground, because su probably doesnt weigh much. put a guy boyd's size on him, and the extra weight puts a strain on that stifle. the horse can hardly bear it. i have a horse that is the same way.

[Boyd R]

Good observation Ed if you ment rear left. This horse has a lot of conformation issues and when we got him his front knees were in bad pain and appeared to have been that way for some time. Vickie has worked on him and she claims he is now pain free. bladder line show he is pain free, though not all issues show up there. I will have her check for that specifically. Now back to the rear left. That hoof was turned out 90 degrees at a relaxed stance when he first arrived and the front left has severe diforming, both do to compensation of weight from the front leg issues. Doing Caveletti work and and getting pain free has got that foot to about a 45 now.
Also at first he acted up with Su as she first cued him and we went back to me cueing and her re-enforceing the cue. and slowly went to her giving the cues.
Would a styfle problem effect his ability to lift the leg. The Ferrier has complimented him on his flexibility.

[baileyholc]

Is it cureable?

[Boyd R]

This is a pic of his right leg Ed. I would think this would be difficult for him with a stifle injury But I really have no clue.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/44098April_23_Noche_and_Maggie_013.jpg

This is his front left hoof. It is twice better than it was but you can still see how he is putting weght on the inside of the hoof, and pushing everything outword

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/44098April_23_Noche_and_Maggie_018.jpg

And this shows the hoof distortion and the rear left position at a relaxed stance

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/44098April_23_Noche_and_Maggie_019.jpg

[motorgypsy]

Thanks for all the explanations. They are always very helpful.

[cowboy ed]

no, its definitely the right rear that is bad. in the picture that shows how his rear feet angle out, the left one angles worse than the right, but both of them are out some. yes, he can flex that leg quite well, even with a bad stifle. he can lift that leg quite well in the picture where you are leading him over the poles. when he isnt carrying any weight, the problem isnt very obvious.
that is why he does just fine when you lead him around, but as soon as you get on him, he has a fit and is reluctant to move. look at the video again. the horse is in pain. i am sure it is the stifle. like i said, i have seen this same thing several times and i have a horse with the same problem, in the same leg.

[Boyd R]

How do I check for The problem? Vet will be here today and Vickie just got back from Marys' in Illinios and will get by soon. If you are correct This has been a long term problem. I beleive Pain has been this horses problem for a long time. Trust me though the left leg is the one that toes out worst. Right may a little but appears straight But will definitly watch more closely.
And any recommendations on correcting the problem.

[cowboy ed]

yes, boyd, you are right, the left foot does toe out worse than the right.

have you vet check the stifle joints on both sides. what i see is definitely the right side. he should be able to do a flexion test on the stifle joint by picking the foot up, holding the leg up high for a minute then asking you to lead the horse while he watches him move. you could also ride noche while the vet watches so that he can see the difference in how he moves with a rider as opposed to carrying no weight. i will get some more info about how to diagnose a bad stifle or stifle injuries.

[Terry Wallace]

the videos won't play for me (I get the page and the real-time player symbol, and thats it)...Ed...is it stringhalt? Is he jerking that hind leg any?

Noche's confo is relfected in his feet. He does seem to have a lot of toe-out all the way around. His front knees look "too big", ( does he have a fluid-filled bump on each front of his knees?)...offset slightly and possibly prone to soreness. Cow-hocks in the rear will somewhat make a stifle problem worse.

How is he when you back him up? Is he having a problem on that right rear backing? I wish I could get the videos to play.... :( The photo of him picking up his right hind very high...in that photo...is typical of what a horse with stringhalt does...an effected horse " picks up" too high.

If it is stringhalt, an operation would "cure" it. If it is a stifle problem, be it stringhalt or just a patella alignment problem, it may get better with physical therapy... Keeping weight to a minimum is definitely adviseable..a very light rider would be in order. ;-)

[cowboy ed]

terry, i am not really familiar with the term string halt. is it a stifle related problem also? we may be talking about the very same thing, i just have a different way of saying it?

[Cindy]

Not stringhalt, Terry and Ed.

[paintedhorizon]

It's not string halt Terry. I've seen that before.

Ed, thank you VERY much for that explanation! I've always wondered how to tell that. I mean, I can see an obvious stifle problem, but something like Noche's, I couldn't see it. Course, I still can't "see" it but I'm not as good as you! LOL

Let us know what they say. Poor Noche.

[CarolU]

They do surgery for bad stifles, and I have heard it is very successful.

No Terry, not stringhalt. There is no jerk.

On the videos, when you open the page and get the big Q, just wait and wait and wait. It'll start eventually.

[baileyholc]

Terri It does take the videos a while to load.

[motorgypsy]

I've ridden and watched a horse move with bilateral stringhalt. It really shows up when they back up. Noche shows none of the signs. The classic symptom of stringhalt is the horse kicking the rear leg or legs up to the belly as it moves and sometimes actually hitting the belly. It looks like the kind of reflex you get when you hit under your kneecap with a hammer in the doctor's office because they can't help it. The horse I rode almost sat down when I backed him his was so severe. Supposedly the cause for the bilateral is not the same as if it is on only one leg. It is supposedly hereditary also.

[paintedhorizon]

http://www.equusite.com/articles/health/images/healthStringhalt.jpg

"Stringhalt is a rare lameness that causes a horse to lift his hind legs higher and more rapidly than usual when he's moving. One or both hind legs may be affected, and the lameness varies from mild (just a muscle spasm) to so severe that the horse actually kicks himself in the belly when he tries to move. Conditions that make any horse's gaits more animated, such as cold weather and competing, can exacerbate the signs. There does not seem to be pain involved with the lameness, yet it is difficult to ride a horse that cannot control the actions of his hind legs."

To make matters more confusing, there is an Australian Stringhalt and North American Stringhalt. The Australian stringhalt seems to be related to some sort of plant toxicity. The North American Stringhalt typically seems to involve an injury. In the case of my horse, she had a tumor or cyst on her spine that was treated successfully. However, after that she developed these symptoms.

Common treatment seems to be diet and exercise, with some horses reponding to a high fat diet. There is a surgery that seems to have limited success from what I’ve read.

[motorgypsy]

There's another really interesting article on stringhalt written by a vet who did necropsies on horses that had the problem. When it was only one leg it was usually a lesion but if it was both legs the article said it was a parathyroid problem. Surgery seems to work well on the one leg problem but not the two leg. The horse I rode had already had the surgery and he was still very badly affected. It's not just lifting the leg high. It's a very quick kick like action like a reflex response.

[paintedhorizon]

I saw a horse with stringhalt at the NBHA World Show! :shock: Talk about shocked!

[Cindy]

I had a client who had a mare with stringhalt that she gots from eating a toxic plant. Had it for about 5 years and then it just went away.

[baileyholc]

Would surgery be enough to cure the problem? Look yall, I am the one who found him and was the first one to post about him. I am worried about him. I hate to see an animal in pain. If the the stifle joints are too bad to be fixed what will happen to him?

[Boyd R]

Terry Backing is no problem for this horse. Sometimes it is his prefered way of going. Our first trail ride he done the first mile in revearse. He gets aggrevated argues then self flexes and backs as if he was expecting to have to.

Baily you just chill girl. if Ed is right and very possibly he is Noche will get help. I on the other hand think he is extremely sensitive and relates work with pain. As he relizes it doesn't he improves dramatically. If he was in pain I don't think he would have improved during this exersize but would have gotten worse. This horse does not give in. But does catch on quick.

[baileyholc]

OK, I took my chill pill for the day. Let us know what the Vet and Vickie says. Will Ya?

[cowboy ed]

funny you would mention that, boyd. backing like you describe is one of the symptoms that you will see in a horse with a stifle problem. when he does that, look down at that leg, and you will probably see that he takes an unusually long stride, backwards, with it. you will also notice a twisting motion to the leg when he is moving. a horse with a bad stifle will also stand, refuse to move, and stretch the bad leg forward, trying to get some relief.

[Boyd R]

Well, by the vet Ed is half correct. She says he has stifle issues in both back legs. A little not very noticeable in the rear right but more in the rear left. She beleives it was caused by being started to young and poor ferrier work. She loves the work Penny is doing to help him correct himself. She thinks that his front end got bad helping his back end and when we got the front end fixed his back end is re-awakening and he is now feeling it as he is now re-using old muscles. She beleives as I do that this guy has learned to hate work in fear of pain. He was excellent under saddle today. a little arguement hear and there but what a diference. She said to start him on Optimum Flex and do cavelleties and hills and he will retrain and rebuild with ease. We also found out he is a wimp when it comes to pain. Thought we would never get his coggins and shots done.

Now For Vickies re-essesment.

[SandyMM]

Vickie's therapy ought to be a great help to him! Don't forget to tell her how well Pete did... He couldn't have improved so dramtaically over the past several years without her original therapy and assessment! Two great vets missed what she found.

[baileyholc]

Thanks for the update. Sounds promising. :D

[ErinC]

I wish they could talk! :roll:

[paintedhorizon]

Poor, poor Noche! I hate to think that his entire life he has been in pain and ppl kept trading him away b/c of it instead of being like Boyd and working to find out WHY!!!

Gracias Boyd! You are an angel!

[cowboy ed]

you're welcome, boyd. ;-)

[Boyd R]

Ed caught this one Thank you Ed. The power of the internet and Great forums. A big thank you has to go to Lori Also.

[motorgypsy]

Gee I love a story with a happy ending!

[Heidi]

She [vet] said to start him on Optimum Flex...
Are you using Dr. Barrow? If so, she is the vet that recommended OF to me for my DSLD Peruvian mare. Let me tell you, Optimum Flex made a DRAMATIC difference for that mare! She went from standing in a corner and barely grazing enough to maintain her weight to grazing more (moving more) and taking evening gallops around the small pasture with bucks thrown in for good measure.
She was definitely a happier horse.
Heidi

[Boyd R]

You got it Heidi. Where did you get Optimum flex? Any where local or did you have to go online for it? I was really Impressed with her. She remembered him from her first visit and even though she did not examine him had noticed his left hoof and rear leg being badly off but did not want to say anything. She is impressed with his progress so far. She also knows of Vickies work and said that Vickie zapping those knees is probably all that he needs. The Optimum flex will help the entire body in case other joints are sore. Which is likely.

[SandyMM]

I think Tractor Supply and Horsetown carry it.

[baileyholc]

Will this help? www.valleyvet.com Or www.kvvet.com

[Brigitte]

That's great to hear and see!

[Terry Wallace]

Glad to hear the vet thinks its not stringhalt. Not all horses with stringhalt jerk up the leg with every step. A Paso stallion here with stringhalt, that had been operated on two times, was still being shown. He would start to jerk his leg and pick it up to his belly only after he got very nervous, then it just escallated to complete wild-eyed jerking, as he got more & more tense.

A different horse (also a Paso) with stringhalt...showed symptoms only under saddle. The photo Michele posted shows a horse with severe stringhalt... just want to make the point they don't all have "drastic action".

I could not get the videos to play...all I got was the "player" symbol. I'm on DSL...don't know what the problem is there...but seems I have not ever been able to see any of Boyd's videos...

Boyd...did the vet say to keep any weight off him now?

There is a horse on the pasture behind my place with bad stifle problems...he is locked (in the stifle) most of the time...his toe is worn off completely flat/blunt from the constant locking and dragging of the hoof...

[Heidi]

Boyd, I was able to purchase Optimum Flex from my local feed store, Boss Bros in Loganville on hwy78. They are only about 12-14 miles from me. Boss Bros sold it for the same price DAC was offering it for on their website, but S&H was extra, of course.
Call Boss Bros 770-466-0570 to see if they still carry it or can get it in for you.
Heidi

[El Indio Elegante]

Boyd his half brother does the same thing. I rode him at asheville last year. warning though his father had hip surgery when he was younger. with his brother's i think is the hind left. it never swelled but when i was at a corto with him it showed.

[baileyholc]

El Indio, Do you know why Noche's, Sire had to have surgery?

[ASB.Immortality]

It almost seems, that is there are lots of problems with others in this line (well, relations to this horse; half-brothers, immediate family, etc.) that it could be something that is genetically passed. It could be like what other breeds are running into, too much linebreeding. Does it seem like this maybe genetically passed or do you think that it could be?

What made me think that it maybe genetic was what the vet told us on a TWH we had. Looking at him, there were times when you would swear he had a little bit of a crooked foot on front & then you would look at him 5 minutes later and dismiss the idea. As we changed the way he traveled (from big lick horse to racking), we noticed the way that foot would hit the ground odd every now & then. We took him to the vet & had x-rays done. The answer we got from the vet was yes, his foot was a little crooked, but that alot of TWH breeders were trying to breed for that. It helped in the way that the show horses traveled. Not that helps for pleasure horses or racking type TWHs. On the big lick horses, they don't have to worry about hitting themselves in the knee. All the action is out in front of them. On a Racking type TWH the action is under them & rolls out into the front of them, so you may have a horse that knocks his knees. That was what made me curious if it maybe genetic. I know some people breed for different things, did they think there may have been something there that needed to be bred for?

[baileyholc]

Interesting ASB. After what Indio said, I wonder now.