Delivery of deformed foal (Necropsy Report Today)

[Tami Pinell]

What I have experienced this morning and for the last several weeks is considered to be "extremely rare" - and my thoughts were, gee thanks, why me.... but I thought I would share this with you all since even the vets say it is not very common for them to see in horses.
Jewel, my spotted draft mare, was due to foal (340) on the 7th. Before this, my normal looking huge bellied draft mare look and acted just fine. Several weeks ago, Jewel appeared not to feel so well and then her belly "disappeared" - and I really mean that.... I have photos - it was GONE! Well, I thought she lost her foal but I could not find any evidence that she had foaled - NONE. When the vet came out last Monday - he looked at her and stated that she had lost her foal - I asked him to palpate her anyways - his face was shocked and he stated that there was a huge baby that was alive.... that she would need to be induced that week. We moved her to a foaling stall, started her on antibiotics and other pre-induction meds... then he never showed - I called on Tuesday to report that her sac was filling, on Wednesday she had milk streaming and was off all feed and water - she appeared to be colicy and in a lot of discomfort - no vet - he stated that he just wanted her to be watched... so that is what I did, night and day... Jewel has not eaten, drank, or pooped right for days.... this morning - this is what this poor mare delivered.... look VERY close....
http://www.morningstarpasofino.com/mare/jewel/2006foal4.jpg
The foal had been dead but if you look, there is just something not quite right....
http://www.morningstarpasofino.com/mare/jewel/2006foal1.jpg
http://www.morningstarpasofino.com/mare/jewel/2006foal2.jpg
http://www.morningstarpasofino.com/mare/jewel/2006foal3.jpg
Yes, this foal has 4 hind legs and 2 pelvises.... The only comment from the vet at this time was they were amazed that my mare actually had the foal. I can tell you that poor Jewel is not in such good shape and she is being treated.... she has had a rough time getting that out. But the main thing I will tell you is that I am not very happy with a vet at this time.

[Cindy]

Tami, isn't that another head coming out of the foal's stomach as well? I didn't think a horse embryo could split. Is this what happened? Don't blame you at all for being pissed at a vet right now.

[Tami Pinell]

Actually that is not a head (even though it looks alien to say the least). It is a full pelvis with both hind legs that are anatomically correct attached. It was atteched by skin and vessels only, not bony structure. What makes me mad is that the foal WAS alive but when she started streaming milk last Wednesday and "acting" colicly - that was her in labor. She could not have it by herself..... the foal died, the placenta was "really" nasty, and the foal was regressing - that was the only way she could get it out. And the poor thing had a heck of a time. Now I am dealing with infection, fever, and possible foal founder..... IF he would have showed and done what was planned, we could have helped her deliver a "possible" live foal that could have had the "alien parts" removed surgically. The foal did not appear to be malformed in any other way. This happens in the first few weeks when the chromosomes are splitting and deciding what is going to be what.... the rear (pelvic/hind leg) one split but the rest did not or there would have been identical twins.....
I'm just mad that a decision was made to do something and then the vet copped out.... now the mare is not well. Her health could have been better if he would have showed and done what he had planned in the first place. I just pray she will be alright in the end.

[Linda Y]

Oh, Tami. I am so sorry. That poor poor mare. I certainly hope she doesn't have any effects from what had to be a super tough delivery.
And yes, kick that vet in the buttocks. :evil:

[CarolU]

OMG Tami...how horrible and how sad. I can't imagine a mare going through what she has gone through. It amazes me that this foal(s) didn't abort a long time ago. When there is THIS much amiss, nature usually terminates the pregnancy very early.

Poor Jewel. My heart goes out to her. I feel so bad. :cry:

And to you...I am so sorry. It is hard to wait 11 months and have so many hopes and dreams end this way. I am just heart broken. I have my fingers crossed that Jewel recovers soon and totally.

Yes, I'd be REALLY PO'd at the vet.

[Heidi]

I'd want to make that vet eat at least half of the costs of Jewel's post natal care right now... :evil:

Here's to hoping she has a quick recovery. I'm sorry she (and you) lost the foal. :cry:
Heidi

[appyday]

Wow I am speechless and that is hard for me...good luck Tami..prayers for you..

[GeorgeGuns]

Well I'e got a different idea about where to kick that vet, can't say it here :evil: :evil: :evil:

Poor mare. Its bad enough to lose the foal, but to be sick now on top of it, the poor dear must be miserable. Give her big ol hugs for me, and yourself too. I'm prayin hard she pulls through without too much trouble.

Cold comfort: that foal might have had a tough time trying to live anyway. But that vet sure could have saved a lot of trouble!!!! Jeeze, a sonogram would have shown this problem ya think? Makes me wonder how some of these folks graduated vet school.

[Trudy]

That is very sad to hear. Makes me realize how lucky we are to have the vets we have here. I truly hope your mare will be okay. Trudy

[Remy]

I am so sorry. I too am amazed that this pregnancy went on as long as it did. Usually nature takes care of malformed babies very early in the pregnancy. I hope all is well with your mare and that you have a "talk" with your vet.

[Abejita]

wow Man Tami I too would be upset. He has really put the mare in danger by not taking that foal earlier.I personally would never have even tried to save the foal, but if it had come out alive or at least ASAP Jewel would be in a lot better shape.(ok just reread your post about it being not being attached by bones..would probably have tried to save it)
Coreen I doubt an ultrasound would have been definitive..once the foals are that big you cant see everything, and I dont think they use external US for pregnancy on horses..and most people dont do US after 60-90 days as a vet can tell pregnancy by feel. get to 90 days..let them be until you do a 'fall check' by palp (if they are not pg ,you can prepare for next spring) and unless,like in Tami's case something looks amiss come spring..let them go.It would have been a case of just getting the right view at the right time on US to see something was wrong .

[Pasogirlz]

That is terrible Tami. Many hugs for you and Jewel. (((((hugs)))))

[PASOFAN]

How sad and also scary. I hope your mare will be ok..

[moonrize]

So sorry Tami - you've really had some hard time with foals... I feel really bad for you and your mare as I lost my only foal this year too. Hopefully your mare will clean up soon and not be down too long. Prayers to you.

[Mellifluous]

Oh my Tami - I am so sorry that this has happened to you! I hope Jewel pulls through this without any lasting effects.

That vet needs a HUGE kick in the arse.

[motorgypsy]

Poor mama - sick and no baby. That's the pits. Whup up on that vet!!! Hope your mare gets well soon!!

[PasoVicki]

Tami,
Your post describes my worst nightmares. I almost cried when I looked at the photos. Take good care of Jewell and of yourself; I hope to see a post soon that says you are both doing better. It's a crime that you both have had to suffer so much because of the vet's lack of help.
Vicki

[dana]

Absolutely heartbreaking and i am so sorry for you and jewel. i hope you two are able to help each other get over this.
:cry:

dana

[Terri]

Oh, Tami, I am so sorry that you and your mare had to go through this! Please keep us up to date on how she is doing. :cry:
Now a stupid question cause I just don't know anything. Was this a set of twins that just didn't happen right? And what should the vet have done to make this situation better? OH and why did the belly disappear?

[baileyholc]

I'm sorry tami, I didn't know it could happen. I hope Jewel recovers. Give her a hug from me. And kick that vet in the hinny a few times too. :(

[appyday]

Tami you have not been on line all day...how is your mare??

[Monty]

Tami- that is SO sad - Hope Jewel pulls through with no damage!
Are there any more vets around you can use ? AND - is this guy the only one at his clinic? And does he have facilities at his clinic for care ?
God - I almost feel quilty with the super care from our clinic ! :roll:
You can do ultrasound fairly close to the due date - they did it with Onna - because they thought she was about 20 and it was her first one -
At least a GOOD vet can -
How truely sad -
Please let us know how Jewel is doing - you know you have prayers coming from this BB!
I would let the vet have a piece of my mind and refuse to pay at least some of the bill - if not all - he caused it to go bad by not following up!
Ohh ,I am SO MAD at that vet !

:hug to you and Jewel !

[Abejita]

Monty what did they see?What exactly were they looking for? position? Heartbeat?
I know they CAN do U.S...just isnt a common thing unless they have suspicions..a lot cheaper to just stick an arm in there ..and you cant see the whole foal right? (I am thinking rectal ultrasound). Teach me Teach me!

[Tami Pinell]

Well yesterday was not a good day either. As I was loading Laura and I saw that our other draft mare, Kathy, was foaling.... no signs that she was ready the night before. Now this is to tell you that no matter what you do, poo happens. This mare was bought bred, she has been on a dry lot all winter (not out on pasture) being fed the best non-fescue hay one can get around here this winter... had been vaccinated, wormed, worked all winter and up into the spring.... things looked great. We went up in a hurry and out popped a piece of the placenta (no foal) - crap is the only thing I thought - she got up, went down, the foal, bag, and placenta all came out find and within less than 2 minutes..... foal has a heart beat, no breathing.... try to recussitate - no go. Foal was brain dead from no oxygen.
Well, that is how yesterday started. Finally got loaded to go to the university - 2 stallions to be collected, 1 mare and foal to be bred, Jewel, and now 2 dead foals.
When I arrived the whole reproduction department was waiting (they knew when I was a 30 minutes away). Out with all of them and Jewel was first in line to be treated - stallions went to the back, mare and foal in another direction (it was a production).

Conclusion of visit - Jewel is NOT in good shape. She is on IV's, antibiotics, antiinflammatory agents, her cervix and vulva is compromised (maybe no more foals ever), she has some nerve damage (may not walk right again), and they are watching her for founder..... when I left her, she was in her stall with hay that she was picking at, she had had a bath (she needed it after they lavaged her uterius, did multi-exams, and got finished with her rear) and she has her crowd of student vets pampering her in every way. If she changes for the worse I will be called no matter what time of day or night.... The 6 legged foal is NOT common and all wanted their turn at looking at it. Yes, I now have permission to "not even call - just show up and be treated" status at the reproduction area at the University. Before it was call and we will talk and then you can come..... This could have been treated differently, this could have had a better outcome for the mare, and possibly for the foal. Dr. Purswell was not happy when she saw poor Jewel and I know she and Dr. Maxwell will take wonderful care of her. I just pray that Jewel gets better and she is able to walk without a hugh limp and pain. As far as her not being able to have foals, I can live with that - she is my buddy here on the farm and we could still have many hours of work and play time together. But I am not happy with the vets that had a plan and backed out - not wanting to do something it one thing - starting something and not finishing is another....

Now about Kathy's foal.... well folks - when you buy hay, you are at the hands of the producer.... since Kathy has no been on pasture (where my fescue is) she has been fed both "orchard grass, timothy, mixed grass hay" - the mix is what got her. This was a "red bag foal" and this is conclusive of fescue toxicity..... SOMETIMES it can be caused by other things but most of the time they will blame it on the fescue. I want you to know that if I hand you a bale of my hay, finding that fescue in it would be darn hard, it does not look like there is any in there. My producer is honest and he will tell me if a field he has cut has some in it even if I can't see it after it is cut and baled. A call to the producer was made and more hay for the broodmares is being delivered that only contains orchard grass and alfalfa..... but mind you I am still at the hands of the producer (he feels terrible and my hay is free).... the sad part.... this is the biggest foal I have ever had here (a Perchron - Dutch Harness cross colt, sorrel with flaxen mane, 2 white hind socks, 2 front white pasterns).... What a beautiful dressage/carriage prospect he would have been. Now I get to talk with the stallion owner.....

The Docs and I had hours worth of discussions on this topic and I have learned a lot - it just appeared very strange that the little paso mare with the healthy foal was the one on the fescue pasture and was not in the same care the big Draft mare was (totally different feeding and maintainence programs) - IF any would have had a red bag foal, surely it should have been the other way around.....
On another note - Nube and her little filly was an interest to all - they had no idea that pasos could look like Nube and the natural gait of them both was a hit right off!

Lori - Nube is my special gal - the semen dose is only 2cc this trip - keep your fingers crossed! :-)

Appy - Sorry, did not get to talk with my favorite genetics guy - he was not available when I asked... maybe on the next trip up this week.... I did not get a chance to talk with 3 of the vets I would have liked to - several were not there this week and the other was in surgery.....

I have to be on the road for the rest of this week - I will try to get on and tell more of what I have learned here but it will be in chunks. I've got to go fuel and get back on the road.... If you have questions - throw them at me and I will see if I can get you an answer when I'm there.

[Pasogirlz]

:( I'm so sorry again for you Tami. That is just heart breaking. I'll keep my prayers going Jewel and the crew tho. (((((hugs)))) I'm sure you needed that.

[RR]

Oh Tami this just breaks my heart. I wish there was somthing I could do to make you and your mares feel better. Here is a group hug, hope it helps you to know we are all here for you.

http://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/love0075.gifhttp://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/love0075.gifhttp://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/love0075.gifhttp://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/love0075.gifhttp://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/love0075.gifhttp://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/love0059.gifhttp://www.smileyvillage.com/smilies/love0059.gif

[paintedhorizon]

Oh Tammy! I'm so sorry!

[Tami Pinell]

Just got a call - Jewel has taken a turn for the worse.... she is not eating again, heart rate is really high, Xrays are being done, and the farrier is on his way - looks like we have founder.... I may have to take a trip back up with a draft horse shoeing stock if their farrier can't do her feet. This is not a pretty picture.... anyone got a gun? I could shoot a certain vet on my way by..... :evil:

[baileyholc]

Im sorry Tami. I hope thing get better for you soon. :hug

[TrueStepPaso]

Tami....I can't even begin to express how horrible I feel for you and your mare Jewel. There are no words. This should never have been brought upon you in such a way....if I were you, I would be that vet's living nightmare. That vet needs to be made very aware of his/her mistake, so it never happens to anyone else's mare and foal.
:realmad

[Linda Y]

Oh, Tami. :cry:
I will not complain about my little piddly problem again. :cry:

[Tami Pinell]

Well, as I am waiting for a call to see if they need my stocks to do Jewel's feet - I do want you all to know that it is not all doom and gloom here.... we are still in Spring mode and got little ones popping out every where.... got gardens going in and fields being planted....
I think the biggest thing that one should know is that when you "feel" or "know" that something is not right with your horse - get someone that will listen. My gut said that things were not right last week, even before I knew there was something "different" about Jewel's pregnancy. What I should have done was to go against the University policy of being referred.... they do know me well enough to be able to say I'm not a whiner. I should have loaded Jewel up and showed on their doorstep.... that is what I wanted to do. But I also know their policy - call, get a referal, go through your local vet first..... I can say that I do "feel" better knowing that I may totally skip that now if I ever need to. Also when I talk with them again, I will ask for all the "technical" verbage on her more than normal legged foal and their reasoning behind it and what is going on with Jewel at this time. Yesterday was going on so fast and things were going on in every direction that the "formality" of the problem was not truely addressed.
My mac and cheese is down, the phone has not rang, and I am headed out to check the new additions (baby bunnies).....
I'll keep you all posted.

[Mellifluous]

I have been thinking about the fescue thing - You mentioned in another thread that you maintain your fescue pastures pretty aggressively to manage the endophyte problems associated with fescue - I bet that your hay supplier did not, and the infected fescue snuck into the hay that the draft mare got. That would be my reasoning anyway.

[Tami Pinell]

The latest news on Jewel - she probably is not going to make it.
From what they can tell so far is that she is on every drug known to help at this time - she is toxic, her heart rate is over 120, she is off feed, will not drink, and most likey setting into foundering. They called to warn me that she may not make it through the night and if she does her recovery is very poor. The quote was "Tami, every horse I have ever seen with her current symptoms has not made it. Her uterus has died inside her and the toxins are high....." I gave them permission to put her down if there was not a grand improvement within the next 12 to 24 hours. I just do not want her to suffer.
I'm going to take a shower now......

[Tami Pinell]

Oh, I forgot to add that I spoke to the stallion owner that had bred Kathy before I bought her.... such a nice person - we will be rebreeding her and this time my work horse will get straight alfalfa at the end of the term....
G'night folks.

[Carol Nelson]

Oh my gosh, the tears are running now...I am so sorry, Tami. What more is there to say...God bless you....

[ASB.Immortality]

Tami, I am sorry to hear about your mare. I think I would have killed that vet for not following through.

I do have one question though. Did this mare a vaccination for West Nile? We have heard of problems with foals that seem to be some of the untold (or unclaimed) side effects of this vaccine.

Here is a website that gives examples of some of the foals: http://lost-foals-group.4t.com/index.html .

Please be warning though... this is a very graphic website.

[Tami Pinell]

ASB - Thanks for the site info...
I'm can't say for sure if this is the case with the deformed foal. I can tell you the mare had never been vaccinated before I bought her, that she was vaccinated last year with a West Niles. I will have to look at my records to see if her vaccines were done pre or post breeding.... I do know she was vaccinated this year before foaling and WN was one of them. I understand from the vets that her deformed foal piece is an type of twinning. Her problems are from poor veterinary decisions and complications of a difficult birthing.... not from a WN shot.
I have about 30 minutes to and hour to wait to see if Jewel is still with us..... and if so what state she is in.....

editted for spelling

[Pasogirlz]

http://bestsmileys.com/hugging/3.gif

I'm so sad to read this news Tami. My prayer and thoughts are with you today. :cry:

[Barbwire]

Gosh, what a sad thing to read this morning. :( To tell you the truth, I don't know how any of you mare owners ever get the courage to breed at all when stuff like this can happen. It is heartbreaking. :cry:

[Carol Nelson]

Because, Barb, this is a rarity...ask Tami how many normal, healthy foals she has had over the years. Yes, you take a chance on losing one...but in reality 97% of the time, there are no problems whatsoever..and the delivery a lot of times happens with no human intervention at all! In the ten years I've been breeding, I've only lost one...a mini colt that now I believe was hydrocephalic.
It's sad, so very sad, when it does happen though.

[DebbieS]

Tami, you have had such bad luck.... you deserve something great to happen to you. I hope there is good news for Jewel... poor thing. What a sad thing to go through.

[Lois York]

Tami,
I was talking with Mom... and her and I send you prayers...We can only hope that things will turn around for you. Sending you the best of luck for the coming season.
Lois and Laura

[Heidi]

No update from Tami since her 7am post. I don't know if that is good news or bad news. ...chewing my fingernails, here, and really hoping for good news for Jewel and Tami.

[Tami Pinell]

Alright, here is the latest.... the quote: "Jewel is one tough horse."
Well, yea I told them that....
They have continued to flush what is left of the uterus and the slough is getting less..., they have moved her to a sand stall and her pain is in her rear. This is where I come into play...
They have had her on every Vet med to help her rear and her uterus, they have blocked her feet to eliminate any laminitis pain, and they have done just about every test there is to run.... however if it is outside of standard care, they can not do it. Her heart rate is still way to high, her blood work shows severe muscle damage but with constant IVs the kidney and liver functions are doing well.... They are not sure if her slight improvement is from A) lessing toxic effect or B) relieving pain from the hip....
My theory is that she has a slipped joint or dislocation resulting in a pinched nerve - I watched her and her left leg is in terrible pain. If I can decrease the nerve pain then the heartrate will fall to the level that she can be studied more to find where the actual problem lies. Since she is getting slightly better I feel they have a handle on the toxemia but if she hurts so bad that she gives up, this will cause her to fall back in her healing.
I will be leaving in the morning with meds in hand to see if I can get them to try them.... since it is NOT standard of care, it may not be a fun thing to get them to buy. I will have to assess her better when I get there.
There will be only one of two choices - to help with a different approach or put her down - a horse can not live with a heartrate in the 120's for long. Do keep in mind that at any time Jewel could just give up.... they have sedated her as much as they dare, they have her on the highest doses of standard pain meds they can this includes morphine, they have looked to see the best they can if it is truely nerve pain or not..... If when give the other out of standard meds and her heartrate does not decrease, then this means that her body is shutting down and she is just a great fighter. I will not let her slowly, painfully die - I will put her down. She has been just way to good to me as a work partner. If the meds do work and the heartrate falls - a different plan will have to be made and another assessment made for the out of standard meds are REALLY high in $$... but this is where I think I can pull a few strings here and there.
I really appreciate your prayers and thoughts for Jewel. I know that she would give each and everyone of you one of her huge horse hugs if she could....
This is my girl....
http://www.morningstarpasofino.com/mare/jewel/friend.jpg

[Mellifluous]

My fingers are crossed. I you can help relieve her pain and get that heart rate down.

Lots and lots of prayers for you and Jewel!

[Brigitte]

Oh wow, I'm so sorry to hear all this, hope everything turns out ok!

[DebbieS]

She sounds like a fighter! Let's pray she hangs in there and comes out of this. You deserve a break, Tami. So does Jewel....

Good luck tomorrow!!

[Carol Nelson]

I wonder what's going on with Jewel. Hope all is well. :(

[motorgypsy]

Oh we hope so much to hear good news. Come on Jewel - you can do it!!!

[Pasogirlz]

Jewel is certainly a gem. Hope the news is good today. *fingers crossed.

[paintedhorizon]

many, many more hugs for you dear

[baileyholc]

Sending prayers for Jewel your way Tami. http://bestsmileys.com/angles/17.gif

[Wendy]

I just spoke with Tami. She is at the University and is surprisingly optimistic. Jewel is feeling much better. She still has nerve damage in her hind end but the toxic level in her blood are much improved. Tami said that Jewel is eating and pooping and seems to be in good spirits. So keep those prayers going! :D

[Monty]

Fantastic news - hope it just keeps getting better ! But only time will tell - :roll:

[Blameitonbrio]

I will be thinking of you Tami and Jewell!

[Tami Pinell]

This is quick cause I just got in and have chores to do before dark...
Jewel I guess just needed a visit from Mom....
by the end of today she is actually doing a whole lot better than expected and there are lots of surprised vet faces..... Her utuerus is regaining tone, was clear of fluid, and they have discontinued her oxytocin..... she does have some real left hip and leg problems but the nerve function is coming back and while I was there and after a massage she actually passed poop on her own twice and pee'd for them (for me really!).... While I was there her placid look and just picking at her hay changed into her loveable horsey hugs and scratch my head in my favorite spot. She is now shifting feet a lot less but is very stocked up in that left rear all the way from hip to hoof.... It was noted that when the right hind was lifted by her, the heartrate was in the 80-90; but when made to move the left her heartrate shot up 40 more beats a minute (and if she could have she would have screamed "ouch".... ) Her blood work has shown that the flushing and IV's have worked... she is still on IV's for the night, antibiotics, antiinflams... The huge question is - do we have just severe trauma and bruising or do we have a fracture?? Well - she is not at a point we can Xray her in the hip area.... I know we are not out of the woods for founder but that looks pretty good also at this point.... all I can say is THANKS... thanks for all the thoughts and prayers.
I may end up going back up there tomorrow - it really seemed to do her good to have "her buddy" there today.. It was kinda funny, after they ultrasounded her uterus for me she turned her big head around and looked at me as if to ask me when I was going to take her home... I completely understood that look and so did Dr. Purswell.... I gave her a big hug and told her to get off her meds and I would bring the BIG trailer just for her.....
When I left around 5 pm Jewel is not in critical condition but she is is not well either - she has a long up hill road to recovery but at least now we all think she is going to do it..... She is my girl!
Thanks again folks.....

[Brigitte]

That's nice to hear, hope she keeps doing good. You should go visit her more often. I'll bet she'll get better sooner that way ;-)

[Carol Nelson]

Lord Almighty...God Bless!!! That is good news for sure!!! :D

[motorgypsy]

We're still holding our breath until she's out of the woods. Jewel - GET WELL GIRL!!!

[Heidi]

Yea! That is great news and I hope she continues on the path to wellness.
Heidi

[CarolU]

Have fingers and toes crossed for her. What a horrible thing to go through, poor girl. Just breaks your heart.

[Barbwire]

I agree with Carol, it's heartbreaking. I hope she has a complete recovery and can retire on your farm.

[appyday]

I sure hope she continues to improve...good news for tomorrow I hope..

[DebbieS]

Yeah!! What good news! It's amazing what a visit from Mom will do.

I've been through something like that with my old daschund. It just makes you feel so good!!

Even though those docs are treating her right, it's nothing like having you there.

Hope she continues to improve and can go home soon!

[JennLM]

Wow, after reading the first page I felt so badly.

I would have wringed the vet's neck myself.

I am so glad yourmare is doing better and hope she continues to get well and make a full recovery.

[paintedhorizon]

That is wonderful news!!!!! Prayers for a continued recovery

[Pasogirlz]

Glad to hear of her good progress. Keeping the good thoughts coming.

[Tami Pinell]

Todays update...
They have taken Jewel off of her toxin meds and taken her IV out. She is on a lidocaine therapy for her pain. She is pooping in small piles but frequently and she has better volume to her urine when she pees. The left leg is still very painful and swollen. They believe that by Monday they will be able to start cutting back on the pain meds, they will be able to start decreasing the antibiotic, and we can assess the hip - I actually heard the phase - planning on coming home..... They say she is much more alert and now wanting to look out the door (that sounds more like her old self!). She is eating much better also. I will make a trip up tomorrow to check her out again and give her another rub down.... the trip for me is a little over 6 hours round trip just in driving so it is not real easy to just jump in to go see her. Again - THANK YOU for all the thoughts and prayers....

[appyday]

AWwwwwwwwwwsome..

[Mellifluous]

I am so glad to hear that things are looking up for Jewel. That is fabulous news!

It is amazing how horses can respond to "their people" I think that when they are down or injured, they can take comfort in someone coming just to keep them company and love on them - not just vets or vet techs who are there on a "mission"

Spirit recognized me instantly and gave me a huge hug and sigh when I went to pick him up from UGA. They had signs on his stall about how violent he was and the vets were shocked when I walked in the stall and he was a total lamb toward me.

I like to think that it helped Brilliant Bill when he was at UGA and I visited him. He did not know me, but he did seem to like having someone there to spend some time loving on him telling him how special he is.

[Carol Nelson]

I am so happy for you and Jewel, Tami!!! I'll keep praying that she comes home soon!
(Yes, I do believe it helps our animals when their "people" are there with them. I think there is so many things that we don't fully understand about the psyche and communication with our animal friends.)

[LynnG]

That sounds like pretty darn good news for Jewel!

[PasoVicki]

Tami --
I'm so, so glad Jewel is doing better. I was afraid to look at this thread for a while, after you posted you thought she might not make it. It just broke my heart, thinking about what both of you were going through.
I know you're super busy right now, but when you get a chance, I'd like to hear what the first vet has to say for himself. Not that he could possibly come up with any acceptable excuse for his failure to help Jewel when she was in labor, but I'd like to know whether he at least accepted his share of the responsibility and apologized.
Vicki

[motorgypsy]

People visits mean a lot to them. Stella said the people at the vet school couldn't believe how Favorito's vitals would improve when she got there when he had his surgery and they all thought they'd lose him but he made it and fooled them all. We're looking for Jewel to beat the odds also!! Keep impproving girl!!!

We know the visits by Mel and Boyd helped Brilliant tremendously as well as his student caretaker who raved about how sweet he was and spent a lot of time with him also. When we visited we would take him for walks all over the barn and he seemed to really enjoy them. He is still such a sweet and well behaved boy. He had a guardian angel that's for sure!

[Tami Pinell]

OK, I'm totally bummed.... this morning started out really rough.... my neighbors killer dogs got loose (and I have to say he really tries to keep them in, they have totally ruined a chain link kennel by ramming through it). Poor Comandante had a rough time trying to keep them off of him until I could get a gun and drive like ____ to get to the barn.... being foundered with a tendonectomy is just not easy when one has to run for his life.... the other fact is I'm glad that I have not been able to shear my sheep - that is the only thing that saved them. They have huge hunks of wool torn out but they did not get torn up. Poor Alex took refuge in some old barbed wire that I had put to the side of the fuel tanks so I could take it to the landfill on my next trip. It took over 20 minutes to cut her wool out of it and get her freed. The only loss was Donna - our baby angora goat and I do not have the heart to tell you what they did to her. And yes my neighbor was upset and offered to pay or get me another. I can also say that if "I" would have had the gun instead of my husband then there would be at least one less dog. So then after the trauma of loosing Donna and getting everyone settled and making sure Comandante was alright (he was laying down right afterward so I know he did not feel good), I started up to Tech where I found Jewel in trouble also.... Her IV's are back in, the lidocaine therapy is not doing a bit of good - She is setting into a really bad founder - at least 3 of her 4 feet.... I would not doubt that it is all 4. Her hip is not good and the leg is still swollen. She is in terrible pain.... for the very first time EVER she is pinning her ears at even the people walking by her stall. In the sand she has pulled enough so that she is standing with P3 in almost a downward position (which is good but a terrible thing to see). If she could she would be rocked back but the hip will not let her. I am now convenced that her hip is fractured. For a horse her size she is still only able to move a very small pile of manure at a time and it is small (pony size balls) so there is some nerve damage - there is most likely a part of her colon that is not working right. What makes this even worse is that she is most likely ulcerated from all the meds. She is so tucked up that my words will not be enough to describe. She is not eating well and she will pull her hay out and spit it out on the floor, she really is not eating. Her look is one of a Whippet dog if one knows what that looks like. She has lost so much weigh in the last 2 days that I am now being able to see her back bone and she is loosing her neck. Her eyes tell you that she wants to quit, her nose tells you that the pain is terrible. She will pick up her right hind leg and I know she would love to kick her belly, she tries to look at her side but it hurts to turn. I could see where she has also not moved more than about 6 inches in her stall and her steps are less than 1/4 of an inch apart.....
I knew if she foundered she would take a real turn for the worse - they have tired to get her feet done but she would fight terribly in the hospital sling and being sedated as much as possible - the farrier was only able to sort of trim just one front foot. Between the pain of the hip, the poor circulation to that leg and it being swollen, her other feet foundering, and her GI system killing her - I'm not sure if she can endure this. We also have a management problem on hand - She is an Amish Draft, she was not taught to handle her feet until she came to me... it was a challenge to get her shoed in a shoeing stock when she was well (she was still in training and was just getting where she would not fight when she got to big to put in from being pregnant). Founder in a regular horse is not easy when they are in pain but try a 1800 pound draft. When they do not want to pick up the feet - they don't. Now with a bad hip, I can tell you that she would hurt someone.... so now the tough decisions are to be made.... I am going to see how she is tomorrow and then Monday morning.... if she continues to get worse I'm afraid that her feet and gut will make the call....
I am so bummed - there for a couple of days she seemed to be doing so good.... darn if her feet and gut would have to start giving out on her now.
I'm tired... think it is just time to take the boots off and sit for awhile....
I'll let you all know what they say tomorrow.....

[appyday]

Awwwwwwwwww Tami I am so so sorry...

[Pasomom]

Oh Tami, I am crushed at this turn of events. I have just read this entire thread today, and did the roller coaster from page one to page five, and then your last post on page six was a total heart breaker!

All I can say is we are praying for both of you! Jewel is fighting the best fight she can, and you have been so wonderful for her. You and she will know the right thing to do if the time comes. I pray that a decision like that will not be needed. Bless you both!

So sorry to hear about the killer dogs and all the damage they inflicted.
You have had a horrible week, and I am so sorry for you. You deserve to have some peace in your life, I wish I could help you, but don't know what I can do from here. I am a crack shot though, if those dang dogs get loose again! I'm afraid I would have killed them all. Why on earth would someone want to keep killer dogs?

Love and hugs to you and Jewel and your family

[Mellifluous]

Big hugs and prayers for you and Jewel.

[Heidi]

I'm so sorry to hear this news...what a rough time of it you've had.
I'm sure Jewel will tell you what she wants you to do. If she can fight, let her fight...but if she's saying its too much, love her and let her go.
Heidi

[Linda Y]

Tami, this is terrible.
I know you will make the right choice. It sounds like she is ready to go, but only you can see her eyes. Listen well, and think of how much of this she is going to have to endure.
My heart goes out to you both.

[CarolU]

Tami, I am just heartbroken for you. (I do think I'd insist the neighbor get rid of the dog though, no amount of $$ is worth dieing like that - I've seen it before and it is horendous).

As for Jewel, I just feel terrible. She did seem to be on the road to recovery. This change is not good at all and I feel so bad.

:hug to you and Jewel.

I do think your vet should be shot. He was playing the 'odds' that she would deliver OK. Who could have guessed why the foal died or how hard it would be to pass. But, that said, after a period of time, a C-section would have saved her so much. We have even gone inside cows and cut calves up and brought them out in pieces and saved the cows. Many things COULD have been done.

I'll be sending all my hopes her way today...hope she improves.

[JennLM]

I am so very sorry for the change of news. I will keep her in my thoughts and continue to hope she recovers. I can see everyone here cares deeply for her and you which is why I see this place is so special.

[Tami Pinell]

Today is a very SAD day. I just got off the phone with the team of vets that are overseeing Jewel. She is much worse than yesterday and the only last ditch effort would be to put her on an antibiotic that has not so great side effects. Our conversation was that of Jewel's life if she was to make it through this event. There is some underlying infection somewhere for her blood work has spiked to show us that now, she is in terrible pain, she is depressed, and she has nerve damage to the GI system that is showing again to be life threatening for she is now unable to poop on her own. They are now able to see the start of muscle depleation in her rear where the nerves are not working. She has stopped eating and drinking. They have confirmed that she is foundered severely in all 4 feet.
My decision is based on the fact that there are way too many odds against Jewel having a recovery and my firm belief in not letting my horses suffer. That she is doing to a huge extent. I discussed what her life would be like even IF she pulled through the "medical" part and a life of having someone needing to reach in and remove her poop, living with nerve pain in her rear, and having all 4 feet hurt from founder (not to mention that she has reproductive problems now) did not seem like a life to me. If I would have not taken her there and let God do what he would have, she would have passed by now. She is a GREAT horse and even through all of this she has tried to do what we have asked. It is my decision to let her go to God's home and run in his green pastures with her friends.....
I will miss her.
There will be an autopsy paid for by the attending vet, Dr. Maxwell to see what else they may find. I will know the results of that early Tuesday.
If I do not answer my emails, PMs, or phone for awhile, I will be alright. Just need a little time to regain.....

[appyday]

Tami I am so sorry....I pray for you and Jewel...hugs and kisses Shelley

[Cindy]

Very sorry, Tami.

[JennLM]

I am so sorry, I know there are probably no words to help comfort the sadness you are going through, just know that I am thinking of you both.

[NAtlanta]

Tami,

I am just reading this thread for the first time. Please know that I am sending up prayers for you. It is not easy to lose our faithful friends. :cry I have no doubt she will be waiting for you in pastures of green up in Heaven.

Holly

[Carol Nelson]

I am so, so sorry, Tami....

[motorgypsy]

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[pasohappy]

:cry: Oh Tami, the tears are for both of you, you are making the right decision for her sake, she will love you more for making that choice for her, you know if she could talk she would say please let me go, thank god there is a quick procedure for letting her go, and she won't have a slow death. My hugs are going air mail to you and your beautiful mare. my shoulder is catching your tears.

[PasoVicki]

Oh, Tami, I'm so sorry. There just aren't words . . . . Just know you're doing the right thing. She's suffered enough.

[Mellifluous]

So sorry Tami - I don't envy you having to make such a tough decision. Jewel is free from her suffering now.

[Pasomom]

Tami honey, God bless you for helping your sweet girl find her peace. I know it is the hardest thing in the world to do, but to do otherwise is an injustice to your friend, and I know you would never do that to her. You are so special and I can feel your love for your animals. Hugs and prayers for you and your family of humans and animals. Take some time to heal, but remember you have so many friends here that would love for you to use their shoulder to cry on. We love you girl.

http://bestsmileys.com/comfort/2.gif

[LynnG]

So sorry for the sad news. Hang in there.

[Barbwire]

Tammi, so sorry to hear this news. May Jewel rest in peace. http://bestsmileys.com/angles/4.gif

[CarolU]

Tami, I guess I knew it as I typed my earlier message, today would not be good. But even expecting it, it tears me up.

I also agree that you have made the right decision...but it just breaks all our hearts, as I'm sure it does yours. This is why breeding scares me so bad. So much can go so wrong and it is so hard.

Hugs to you....there really are no words. I can't imagine going through what you have for the past year. I am so sorry.

[Fino1]

Tami............you and Jewel have continually in my thoughts since this all started.
Bless you, gal

May Jewel rest in peace .........

Judy

[Linda Y]

Tami, I am so very, very sorry for your loss.
Know that you did the right thing by your poor Jewel.
hugs.

[lalecl]

Tami my heart goes out to you and Jewel and I am sure she was your jewel. Just know that I am thinking of you.

[Tami Pinell]

Thanks everyone - I really am hanging in there. I've been "on the farm" for an entire life and know that putting her down was the right thing for her. It would have been selfish for me to keep her going. I do want you all to know that I have not answered my phone for I have a really nice sore throat and I'm very froggy sounding. My biggest issue is not with the decisions made after Jewel was taken to the University - it is a trust issue with the local vet. I have stated to many that I really respected this vet and I'm not sure why his call was what it was..... I will deal with that one day when it is more appropriate to talk with him. I have stated here in the past - LEARN from others mistakes.... well - here is the lesson: You know your horse better than anyone else does - go with YOUR gut. I knew there was something really wrong with Jewel. I have had to deal with policies and procedures and the result of that was not the best for Jewel - I can tell you now that I will not be as nice, not ever again. I really try not to be a witchy horse owner - I am in agribusiness and farming is my life (not just horses). You live and learn - then you die, hopefully you have done well and left something for others that is good in the process. Some lessons are just harder than others.
Hopefully the next post will be of a more pleasent nature.
Thanks again - Tami

[Pasogirlz]

What a terrible ordeal start to finish. :( Many prayers and hugs going out for you and the family.

[Abejita]

Thinking of you and know how hard it is to follow your heart sometimes..

[Blameitonbrio]

I am just catching up on this thread, and I am so sorry you are having to go through all this. You are in my prayers.

[Monty]

How really sad for you - I know how it is from having to put Venus down.What made that so hard was she looked and acted fine - but ,I couldn' t let her suffer the pain and indignities that liver failure causes .
You made the right call - and it will take a long time to stop hurting - we can rationalize it in our brain - but the hearts still hurt.
Go ahead and take some time - we will be here for you when you feel like talking - :hug

[DebbieS]

Tami - so sorry to read this news. You made the right decision - you know that. RIP Jewel :(

As for the neighbor - if it were my dog that did something like that, I would put him down.

[baileyholc]

My heart goes out to you Tami. I am really sorry. It should not have happened. :cry:

[RR]

Tami I am so sorry to hear all of this. I was really thinking she was going to pull through, she was a fighter for sure.
You made the right decision girl, she is now at peace.

[dana]

i hope your heart heals once again, Tami. death is always the hardest on the living. even harder when you have to make the decision for them.
as to your vet, i can't say what i've been wanting to but i think at the least i would send him the bill from the university.
Hug to you!

dana

[Camilla]

Oh Tami,
how awful... I am so, so sorry!
I have not been on this board for a while and just read this "roller-coaster" thread from the start and I just feel so bad for your tough journey and having to see your beloved horse in such pain.
Hope that vet has learned something from this.
Sweet journey blessed Jewel... greener pastures await and no more pain.

[Tami Pinell]

I believe that Dr. Purswell (a staff vet) said it best to me today - "At least you put her down at the right time and you were not wrong about it."
I had to agree - here are the results...
Gross Diagnosis:
1. Metritis, suppurative and hemorrhagic, severe
2. Hemorrhagic cystitis
3. Vascular thrombosis, right deep femoral arterial branches with myonecrosis
4. Fat necrosis (presumptive), abdominal cavity
5. Laminitis with rotation of P3, right and left thoracic and right pelvic limbs (10 degrees)
Lab Findings:
Diagnosis: Endometritis, Suppurative, Chronic, Severe
Diagnosis: Myofiber Necrosis, Polyphasic, Severe with Vascular Thrombosis
Diagnosis: Fat Necrosis, Skin and Abdomen
Diagnosis: Tublar Necrosis, Multifocal, Moderate, Kidneys

[Terri]

Oh Tami, I am so, so sorry. :cry: I wish I could say something to ease the pain, but I know I can't. So I will just say that my heart aches with you.

[Carol Nelson]

Oh my God...you did the right thing, you know that now, don't you? Bless her heart...

[CarolU]

Oh Tami...that poor, dear horse. I feel so badly for you, but agree you did the right thing. She was in a lot of pain...no longer.

[Tami Pinell]

The senior resident vet that actually was "in charge" of Jewel was just a dear person (soon to be - Dr. Racheal Tan).... she told me so much more than the actual paper said. I think you all may recall that I said from the start that Jewel had beat herself up getting the baby out and that there was just something really wrong with her left hind leg... what is hard to put into words is the actual view. When working a draft horse the view one mainly gets is of their rump and being able to watch it work, the shape, how the muscle move, etc. Try that for hours and hours - when I saw Jewel the day she was upside down in her stall after having the foal, helping her get up, getting her outside - the view of that huge rump was just not right. After Racheal's description of what her muscles looked like when they did the Necropsy was one that explained the entire horrid event. To get that foal out without the assistance of humans took a lot more than her body could handle in the end. Racheal actually said that the huge rump muscle looked to be pulverized. To think that it took that much to try to get the foal out is just hard to imagine. The other "odditiy" was the Vascular thrombosis.... heck guys, how bad of a wreck did she go through in order to get blood clots in her right femoral artery? My mother had a bad fall and the swelling and no movement caused the same thing - months to get it disolved and get her healed up.... one small piece comes off and then you have lung problems....
After talking with the vets at Tech, knowing what we know now.... I really wish I would have gone against "policy" - gone with my gut - loaded her and just showed on the door step - I believe there would have been a different outcome. You live and learn. I do not feel upset about putting her down, I would have felt terrible if I would have asked them to keep trying and she would have suffered worse fate. She did not deserve to suffer any more than she already had. She will always be in my heart, in my mind, she was a great teacher for a person that was new to Amish trained drafts, she has given me new knowledge to share with others but most of all she gave me a equine friendship that no other horse will be able to replace - she was a real "Jewel".

[ErinC]

HUGS to you !!!
I am crying with ya!

[Cindy]

Tami, don't beat yourself up for listening to a vet that you trusted. It happened and that's that. You cannot keep second guessing that you did or did not do this or that. It was her time. You did the best that you could do. It just did not turn out the right way. We live and we learn but unfotunately cannot turn back the clock. You gave the mare a great life and a respectable passing and you are to be commended for what you did do.

[motorgypsy]

Life isn't fair. We can only rejoice in the time we have them and consider ourselves lucky to have known them. We're so sorry you had to go through all this. Life isn't fair. :(

[TrueStepPaso]

I am so choked up right now....I don't have words. I am more than sorry for you Tami, I feel a pain and sadness for you, and your mare & her foal..........

[Monty]

With all that - You did make the right choice -
I ditto the part about not second guessing yourself - we can only do what feels right at the time !
It is so hard dealing with animals - they can't really tell you when and where and how bad it hurts - owners and the vets can only guess and try to figure out what is happening . :(

[hast]

I'm so sorry you had to make that choice... :hug :hug Hang in there.