Color genetics question....

[SandyMM]

Just to double-check my understanding of color genetics before I pass along incorrect info by mistake - please _do_ correct me if I have any of this wrong... We were discussing colors at the barn tonight and it ranged a bit off-topic, but here's what I was thinking.... and I told them_someone _ on the board could help! :-)

1. In Pasos - or any other breed - if a horse is gray, it _must_ have at least one gray parent
2. Is there any recognized color - other than gray - that would cause a horse to get more white hairs in an otherwise dark coat?
3. Do roans have to have 0, 1, or 2 roan parent(s)
4. If a horse has pinto (paint) markings, it _must_ have at least one pinto/paint parent
5. Two pintos have a 25% chance of throwing a solid color offspring
6. In the paint horse breed (or any 'color' breed that allows 'breed stock' designation), the 'breed stock' individuals do _not_ carry the color genes required for full registration and cannot reproduce color if bred to another breed stock individual.
7. If one parent passes a 'creme dilute' gene, does it also pass a 'regular' (red or black color gene)?

?--What is the smokey black gene? How is it expressed on different color combos?
?--What are the odds that two overos will produce a lethal white gene?
?-- Have any Pasos been designated as having the overo color pattern?
?--Are there any verified champagne genes in Pasos?

What are some of the better color gentics websites? I know someone listed several a while back..

[motorgypsy]

1. true
2. sabino, the app colors, rabicano, and roan seem to vary from year to year in the amount of white hairs there are in the coat but not like grey which of course progresses to totally white. I suspect that the hair itself white vs grey are not the same. Grey is a hollow translucent hair shaft devoid of color whereas white has white pigment but check on this one. This is true of cats but don't know for sure with horses.
3. Definitely one parent but there is some evidence that there are some homozygous roans but it's not at all common and roan is thought to be a lethal gene when homozygous so evidence of living homozygous roans are a new thing.
4. true BUT a minimum sabaino can just look like a solid with a lot of chrome and can still throw a more maximum sabino offspring that looks pinto. So what you think is a solid, may not really be a solid
5. Only true if both pinto parents are heterozygous. If either is homozygous all the babies will be pinto. Now remember sabino is really weird and can throw from almost no white to medicine hat almost total white. Tobiano throws more predictable pinto looking offspring. No overo documented in paso finos
6. They call the solids "cropouts" but in some cases they are minimum sabinos that can still throw pinto offspring. Don't know about registration???
7. creme gene is a modifier so the base color of red or black or both must be present also and passed to the offspring
8. black plus two creme genes = smoky cream
black plus one creme gene = smoky black
9. 25% if each parent has one lethal gene - totally horrible as they are born alive and die
10. Some paso finos are registered as overo but are really sabino maximum expressed
11. Haven't heard of any yet but who knows?? There is a test for champagne
UCDavis and I think it's called battyatty.aol.com although there are several others like the double dilute site that is also very good with lots of pictures.

[SandyMM]

Is sabino a pinto pattern or a modifier?
If it's a pinto _pattern_, are Clydesdales pintos?

In otherwords, if a horse has sabino markings, but no other pinto/paint registerable markings (overo, tobiano, or any other combinations of same) - is it a pinto/paint?

[Heidi]

1. In Pasos - or any other breed - if a horse is gray, it _must_ have at least one gray parent.
Yes.
2. Is there any recognized color - other than gray - that would cause a horse to get more white hairs in an otherwise dark coat?
Sabino, rabicano and roan.
3. Do roans have to have 0, 1, or 2 roan parent(s)
A roan must have at least one roan parent. There are discussions going on about lethal roan (two copies of the roan gene) however this differs from Lethal White Overo in that the double roan gene causes the mare to absorb or reject the fetus at a very young stage of pregnancy.
4. If a horse has pinto (paint) markings, it _must_ have at least one pinto/paint parent
Not sure on this one, I think the parents must have the genes to pass color, as there are plenty of minimally marked pintos.
5. Two pintos have a 25% chance of throwing a solid color offspring
This depends on the homo/hetero-zygousity of the parents. If parents are homo, 100% chance of color, if one is homo and one is hetero the percentage goes down for THAT foal passing color because they would get one 'color' gene from the homo parent and could get the 'non-color' gene from the other parent and become heterozygous themselves for passing color, and the percentage goes down even further with both parents being hetero as they can both pass the non-color gene to their offpsring. I think that is the 25% you were referring to.
6. In the paint horse breed (or any 'color' breed that allows 'breed stock' designation), the 'breed stock' individuals do _not_ carry the color genes required for full registration and cannot reproduce color if bred to another breed stock individual.
Not neccessarily, as I said, there are many minimally expressed pintos who HAVE the genes, but they are not showing well enough to register with the 'color' breed organizations that like loud and flashy color and require photos for registration. Now, if the offspring of two pintos who are heterozygous as mentioned above both pass their non-pinto genes...then you have a horse who will never be able to contribute 'color'. I believe there are now a few tests to determine pinto markings, but it is not all inclusive as they haven't discovered all of the markers for all of the patterns.
7. If one parent passes a 'creme dilute' gene, does it also pass a 'regular' (red or black color gene)?
Yes. The horse is either black or red based, with cream expressed on top of that. The Cremello horse will always pass a red gene with its' cream gene, guaranteeing palomino with any other red based horse because it is basically a chestnut with two cream genes. The hetero Perlino, who would carry 1 black gene with agouti and 1 red gene in addition to the two cream genes could pass either black or red with it's cream, giving a wider range of color results depending on the base color of the other horse. The homo/black Perlino is a black based horse, with agouti and two cream genes and will always throw a black based foal, buckskin or smoky black depending on homo/hetero for agouti. Agouti can hide in red horses as it does not visibly express on red, only on black. Bay horses are black with agouti. Buckskins have a cream gene on top of that.
?--What is the smokey black gene? How is it expressed on different color combos?
Smokey Black is not a gene. Smokey Black is a black based horse, no agouti, with one cream gene. Cream in one dose, does not visibly express on black. A Smokey Cream is a black horse, no agouti with TWO cream genes. This horse phenotypically expresses as a cream color, like Perlino.
?--What are the odds that two overos will produce a lethal white gene?
Depends on if each carries the LWO gene. Both must pass the LWO gene to the offspring for a lethal case. This is why it is important to test all horses suspected of carrying Overo factors and NOT breed a positive LWO gene'd horse to another positive LWO gene'd horse.
?-- Have any Pasos been designated as having the overo color pattern?
I don't think so...but I don't know for sure.
?--Are there any verified champagne genes in Pasos?
Same as above...I don't know...but Bronce is unusual enough for me to hope they can determine a test for it for verification!

What are some of the better color gentics websites? I know someone listed several a while back..
I like:
http://www.equinecolor.com/forum/
http://members.aol.com/battyatty/
http://duncentralstation.com/ShadesOfDun.html
http://www.duncentralstation.com/WhatsDunIsDun.html
...I see the last two are from the same site...
Hope I was helpful!
Heidi

[Tami Pinell]

You need Spondenburg's books - they are very helpful....
As far as pintos in pasos - I have looked along with others for a "true" overo gene other than the Sabino gene and I have never found one. I have also had many pintos with extreme white patterns tested for the lethal white gene and all were negative. The lethal white gene seems to follow the frame overo gene the best. I have also bred many extreme white pintos together and never had a lethal white problem. Now as far as breeding two pintos together and having a 25% chance of solid - that is only true if both pintos are heterozygous - if one or both parents are homozygous then your % for homozygous is different but you would never get a solid. In breeding stock pintos and paints - Tobiano has to show in at least one parent to get Tobiano, so a solid breeding stock will not pass on the Tobiano gene because it does not have it. Since the overo genes are mainly in the mustang and QH I am not as familiar with them but I have never seen any "pattern" color to skip generations. I have seen these patterned colors to be "so minimal" that they have been overlooked and thought to have skipped genetration.

Other factors that can cause a lot of white hairs in a coat color other than gray - the first that comes to my mind is Rabicano - it can be minimal to extreme also. I do not know much about roans. I have also seen Sabino pintos with minimal markings mistaken for Roans (this tends to be a common mistake in the "old" registrations of pasos with leg and face white).

Grays have to have at least one parent with the gray gene - I have always wondered what factors cause some grays to be all white and some to grow old and have the dark points and dapples (my personal favorite).

A double dilute is exactly that - the lightest color of one of the basic colors there is (black, bay, or chestnut) The answer is yes they have a base color gene. Now since they are double dilutes they pass on only one of the dilute genes making them wash out one time the base color of the potential mate - so the double dilutes base color really does not matter except for all the "modifiers" that go with them..... explaination - if you have a double dilute from a buckskin and a palomino cross when the horse is mated the only modifier you would have are white point markings (star, socks, etc.) the color of the foal comes from the other parent - now if you have a Dun/Palamino double dilute you would have the chance of getting a dorsal stripe in the foals along with leg bars and what ever else comes with the dun (this is how a lined back palomino can come to be).
A smokey black is the lightest dilution of black - you have Black, grullo, smokey black. I did this by breeding my grullo mare to my creme stallion - result was a smokey black (he looked to have lavendar skin and slate grey eyes).

As far as the other questions, I'm not up on the champagne gene - I have seen a couple of pasos with a metalic shine but not the right eye color.... ???

[Serendipity]

From what my friend says who raises just pinto and sabino pasos.
Sabino is not a pinto pattern and a sabino ony has a 25% chance of throuowing it here her web page she has a lot of good info in these patterns.

http://pintopaso.com/stallions.html

[Tami Pinell]

Sandy - Clydes are Sabinos and a lot are preferred if they have more than minimal markings for breeding stock. In the Draft Horse Journal they show the high bid winners at a lot of the auctions and if there is a Clyde with a lot of white from the Sabino it is usually aways the high bid....

[Heidi]

[in reference to double dilutes bred to non-dilute horses]...the color of the foal comes from the other parent...
Sorry, this is incorrect.
Both the sire and the dam contribute to the base color of the foal, but the Double Dilute horse will always give a cream to modify the base color...
Case in point...my filly Q, who is a buckskin, came from the mating of a red with a perlino. What makes this odd, is that this same EXACT pairing (at least 4 other times) resulted in palomino foals. This means the perlino was heterozygous for color, carrying both black AND red genes, in addition to agouti (which makes black horses bay). The other four foals were given his red gene in combination with the dam's red gene and his cream resulted in palominos. For Q, he happened to pass his black and agouti gene in addition to his cream gene.

A smokey black is the lightest dilution of black - you have Black, grullo, smokey black.
I would like to note the differences in these colors...
Black, is black. No agouti or other modifier.
Grullo is black, no agouti and dun.
Smokey Black or Smokey Grullo is the same as above, but with one cream gene. Usually there is minimal, to no, change in body color of black or grullo, but they carry and can pass the cream gene.
Smokey Cream is a black horse, no agouti and two doses of cream. A double dilute.
*I wonder how a Smokey Cream Grullo would differ in phenotypical appearance from the Smokey Cream...
Heidi

[motorgypsy]

whether sabino is called pinto or not seems to depend on who's doing the calling but maximum sabino can be almost totally white or mostly white and minimum can just have a big blaze, chin white, high irreguarly stocking, maybe a belly spot but if you breed two of these minimum sabinos you could get a maximum and there is a 75% chance of the foal being sabino if both parents are heterozygous for sabino.

By the way I corrected the smoky black vs smoky cream in my initial post.

Bronce's color is indeed unusual and lovely but our duns are very metallic also so I don't know about the champagne gene. Our old brown pointed buckskin dun mare even has very pale amber brown eyes. Bronce looks like a smutty dark bronzy dun to me if I remember correctly.

We rode the Asheville parade with an extremely dark metallic looking bronze I think buckskin - I don't remember any stripes on him - but his color was amazing. Lori West probably knows the horse and his owner.

I thought it was Tami Pinell who had a nearly white sabino foal. I know there was a thoroughbred on TV that was nearly white from almost solid parents - again that sabino gene.

[motorgypsy]

Smokey cream grullo - grulla/o is black, no agouti plus dun so add two cream genes and you would think you would get almost white body with ever so faint darker gold stripes - dorsal and legs - and the darker gold mane and tail - perlino with stripes in other words??? I've heard double dun gives additional color change but don't know for sure.

[Linda Y]

6. They call the solids "cropouts" but in some cases they are minimum sabinos that can still throw pinto offspring. Don't know about registration???

Actually not quite correct. A cropout is a QH that is from two regular marked QH parents and is born with recognizeable Paint markings. They have loosened the allowable white on QHs in the past few years, so there are quite a few double registered as QH and Paint.
I haven't kept up with my research on Paints since I don't breed them anymore, but at the time, only Overos could throw a lethal white foal, and there were no documented lethal white carriers that were sabino. Which is why sabino was so highly prized...they could LOOK like an overo, but no danger of the LWO gene. Tobianos don't carry it, but could if they were half tobiano half overo. But one of the parents would have to be a carrier of the gene...of course the overo parent.
Solid Paints can be registered, but it is noted on their papers that they are solid.

[CarolU]

Well THAT'S all clear as mud! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me ask about rabicano...isn't that really a 'pinto' marking? I know it shows up in many solid Paso Finos with no pintos in their linage...Nevado comes readily to mind. But even horses like Zar has white hairs around her flanks and some in her tail (really low down her tail too...very strange place for white hair). A newphew of hers looks almost roan he has so much white right now, but no 'roans' in his color tree.

[Linda Y]

Rabicano isn't pinto. It is usually just a lot of white hair, but there is no underlying pink skin. To be a true pinto, there has to be pink skin under the white hair. In the case of cropout or minimally marked Paints, you are sent a circle cut out of a piece of paper when you register. You have to take a photo of the circle on the white marking...which has to be on the body, not the front of the face or below the knee or hock...and the white has to be bigger than the circle. THEN you have to shave the hair off the white place to show the pink skin underneath and photo that, too.
I think that rabicano is a type of roan, actually.

[Linda Y]

OK, I posted the questions on another board where there is a bonafied color person. Here are her answers...
1. Iif a horse is gray, it _must_ have at least one gray parent?

Yes. This is true of any "simple dominant" gene - so the same is true of dark-headed roans, tobianos, champagnes, and duns, to name a few.

2. Is there any recognized color - other than gray - that would cause a horse to get more white hairs in an otherwise dark coat?

I assume the questioner is asking about progressive white - the kind that increases with age. If that's the case, then the other gene that does this is the one responsible for varnish roan. That gene is currently being referred to as "leopard complex", and is carried by ALL appaloosas. So any appaloosa can grey out, though not all do.

3. Do roans have to have 0, 1, or 2 roan parent(s)

Roans, assuming they are the 'true' or dark-headed roan, must have at least one roan parent. They can have two, though. Roan was long thought to be a lethal dominant, but as far as I know that was always a theoretical construct (unlike frame overo, where there were dead foals). Since that time a number of horses have been proven to be homozygous roan, so that theory is in question.


4. If a horse has pinto (paint) markings, it _must_ have at least one pinto/paint parent

There are at least four kinds of pinto patterns, each with a different genetic mechanism. So it really depends on what type of pattern you are talking about. And it also depends on whether you mean "at least one pinto parent" or "at least one pinto parent that most people can identify as a pinto"!

But it is true that none of the known pinto patterns are recessive.


5. Two pintos have a 25% chance of throwing a solid color offspring

It really depends on the two pintos in question! Two homozygous tobianos have ZERO chance of throwing solid foals, after all. And when you start crossing parents with different patterns, the situation gets more complex.

One good rule of thumb is that the more white on the horse, the better your chances for a pinto foal. (Because different patterns put white in different places, making multiple-pattern horses whiter than average. And each pattern gene is a separate chance for color.)



6. In the paint horse breed (or any 'color' breed that allows 'breed stock' designation), the 'breed stock' individuals do _not_ carry the color genes required for full registration and cannot reproduce color if bred to another breed stock individual.


That is not true in all cases - or even MOST cases. If the only pattern in the line is tobiano, then in most cases the "breeding stock" horses will not be able to produce color on their own. But with the other three pinto patterns (sabino, splash, and frame), they can and they do.


7. If one parent passes a 'creme dilute' gene, does it also pass a 'regular' (red or black color gene)?


Absolutely. Under the cream, every horse is either chestnut, bay or black. And those colors are passed along separate from the cream gene. There are two "regular" genes, by the way... the black/red gene (Ee) and the agouti ("Where does the black go?") gene (Aa). Every cream dilute (whether they have one copy of cream or two) has two copies of the E/e gene, and two copies of the A/a gene.


?--What is the smokey black gene? How is it expressed on different color combos?

There is no "smokey black gene". There is a smokey black COLOR, which is any horse that is genetically black AND carries a single copy of the cream (Cr) gene. Some smokey blacks look like faded blacks, while some look no different from any other black.


?--What are the odds that two overos will produce a lethal white gene?

It depends on what kind of overos are involved. There are three types of overo (sabino, splash and frame), and they are all separate genes. But if both parents carry the FRAME overo gene, then they odds are 25% for a lethal.



?-- Have any Pasos been designated as having the overo color pattern?

It depends on which overo. Sabino is certainly present. I have not seen any evidence that splash or frame are present, but it's always possible one might show up!



?--Are there any verified champagne genes in Pasos?

At the moment, I do not believe there has been a confirmed case. There is at least one family that is part of the investigation of the new "pearl" dilution, and some of those horses look a lot like champagne.


?--Is rabicano considered pinto or roan?


That depends on who is classifying the colors! And really, all the pattern grouping are about human convenience. They aren't tied together in a genetic sense. We just group them "like with like".... and just what is "like" varies from person to person

[SandyMM]

Absolutely. Under the cream, every horse is either chestnut, bay or black. And those colors are passed along separate from the cream gene. There are two "regular" genes, by the way... the black/red gene (Ee) and the agouti ("Where does the black go?") gene (Aa). Every cream dilute (whether they have one copy of cream or two) has two copies of the E/e gene, and two copies of the A/a gene.

I don't understand this one - can you explain more?

[SandyMM]

It depends on what kind of overos are involved. There are three types of overo (sabino, splash and frame), and they are all separate genes. But if both parents carry the FRAME overo gene, then they odds are 25% for a lethal.

I don't think there have been any registered overos in the Paso breed, but if sabino is a type of overo.... why aren't sabinos automatically accepted as registered Paints in APHA and why aren't sabino Pasos listed as pintos in PFHA?

[SandyMM]

I just received the paperwork for color testing to be sent to UC-Davis. I probably won't have Emi tested as he has produced chestnut - which means he carries a red, black, and agouti.

But Bronce is a mystery! He's registered buckskin - he definitely carries one creme dilute and agouti, but is he black/black or black/red? And if he isn't a cremello, perlino, or a possible smokey black - is there any reason to have the creme test done? (I can't think of any...)

[Linda Y]

It depends on what kind of overos are involved. There are three types of overo (sabino, splash and frame), and they are all separate genes. But if both parents carry the FRAME overo gene, then they odds are 25% for a lethal.

I don't think there have been any registered overos in the Paso breed, but if sabino is a type of overo.... why aren't sabinos automatically accepted as registered Paints in APHA and why aren't sabino Pasos listed as pintos in PFHA?

I can't say why Pasos that are sabino aren't listed as pinto, but sabino Paints are automatically registered as Paint IF they meet the requirements otherwise.

[Linda Y]

Absolutely. Under the cream, every horse is either chestnut, bay or black. And those colors are passed along separate from the cream gene. There are two "regular" genes, by the way... the black/red gene (Ee) and the agouti ("Where does the black go?") gene (Aa). Every cream dilute (whether they have one copy of cream or two) has two copies of the E/e gene, and two copies of the A/a gene.

I don't understand this one - can you explain more?

The cream gene modifies the color that the horse *should* be. The horse is either a chestnut, bay or black that has been changed by the cream gene to a palomino, buckskin or smokey black. Is that what you mean?

[Serendipity]

Sandy this whole thread reminds my of aour brain teaser "Calabaza" I thing I'm going to have a test done on her because she is such a mystery and PFHA won't listen to photos :roll:

[Stormie]

I thought I had posted to this earily?? Lost in space I guess.

Horses have loci for every color gene there is, Grey, Agouti, Creme, Tobaino, Sabino, Roan, etc. At each loci there is two genes. A foal gets one gene from the dam and one from the sire.

With these pairs they can be Homoz. ; Matching like (EE) or (ee). Or the pair can be Heteroz, not matching like (Ee).

Genes work in a number of ways. Ones like Grey are Dominate in how they work. To show grey a horse has to have the Dom. form(G) and if they have (G) they are grey. So a non grey horse is (gg) and a Grey is (Gg) or (GG). If you breed two non greys (gg) X (gg) the only gene that the dam and sire can give is (g) making the foal (gg) or non grey. So yes a grey has to have a grey parent.

Genes can be Incomplete Dominate. In the above case it doesn't matter if a horse is (Gg) or (GG) he is still grey and looks no different in either case. But an Incomplete Dom. is when the gene works in Dom forms but works different in Heteroz or Homoz form. Creme works this way. In Heteroz form it only works on Reg pigment, changing it to gold. Making a chestnut palomino, a bay buckskin and a black smokey black. The buckskin and smokey black look the normal black pigment in the areas that have black pigment. In homoz. form it lightens the red pigment to nearly white and the black pigment to orangish or smokey greyish color. Making Chestnut Cremello, Bay perlino and black smokey creme. It's like taking a stuffed horse and tossing it in a washer with bleach. If you do that once it gets one shade lighter, if you do it a second time it gets another shade lighter.

Some genes work in Recessive form. For this they have to be homoz. to show it. Flaxen works this way. The recessive form of that controling gene needs to be pasted from both parents to get it. A horse can 'hide' this gene because they can be heteroz for it but can't show it until it pops up in a foal when the other parent also passed it on.

And some genes will only work on one color of pigment. Agouti is this way. It only works on black based horses. On a red base you won't know the horse has it even if it is homoz. Dom for Agouti.


Sabino, Varnish Roan, Rabacino and Classic Roan do put a mix of white hairs on the body. Sab and Rab put ticking on them. These can change over time but will not go white like a grey. Varnish Roan is an Appy pattern that does appear to 'grey out' over time but it leaves color on the bony parts like bridge of nose, ear tips, knees, hocks, hips ribs, etc. They do not go totally white. Classic Roan, many believe that they 'roan out' but they don't. They are born roan but like the winter coat the foal coat does not show it that well. Once they loose the first foal fuzz they show it. They normally do not get lighter with age, they tend to get darker with age. And unlike other colors when a Roan gets a scar the hairs tends to come back dark not white. Classic Roan is a Dom. working gene. One parent must be Roan to get a roan.


There are minimals and incompletes in White Patterns(Tob, Sab, Frame, and Splash). Minimals show markings but generally do not have enough to really be counted as 'colored' by groups like APHA. You can normally tell if a horse is a Minimal. Incompletes do not show any signs of being a pattern. In a Sab. it might be little white as a star with one white low ankle marking. A horse marked like this does not fit the idea of a Sab but in some cases Sab does show with that little of white. All of the patterns have cases of this.

Soilds out of two pintos is 25% unless they are mixed patterns or one is homoz for the pattern. The more genes you toss into the mix the great the % of colored foals.

Many breeding stock paints(and other groups) are minimal or incomplete patterns.

All colors trace back to red or black base. Many count Bay as a base color but it isn't because unlike other animals Agouti works differently in horses. Agouti in some animals is a base color but on horses Agouti is a modifier gene that works by limiting black pigment to the points.


Lethal White is linked to the Frame White pattern. APHA made a huge mistake when the grouped Frame, Sabino and Splash all under Overo. They are all different and caused by different genes. Lethal White has been tested on other patterns but those horses might have been frame also and just didn't show it well enough to make it stand out. There is also some studies that say that some Frames do not carry it but in these studies they use "Overo" and don't state if the horses are Frame or other patterns. The Lethal White gene is linked to the Frame gene. If a horse is frame it is a carrier for lethal white. So if you just never breed two frames you will never get it(barring if they have it and don't show it of course). If you breed two frames you have a 25% of a lethal white foal. If you breed two Overos one frame and one sabino you won't get a lethal foal. Some people try to say that you get a higher chance of color if you breed two frames even with the lethal whites but that isn't true. If you breed a solid to a frame you get Solid 50%, Frame 50% But if you breed Frame to Frame you bet Solid 25%, Frame 50% and Lethal 25%. The chance of color is still just 50% but you have now made it so that 25% of the foals will die.

www.equinecolor.com is a good website on color.

[pasogalinbama]

y'all this makes my brain hurt lol
i have a gray mare that is almost snow white, when wet you can see that she has Sabino markings because of the pink skin, if she where breed to a non gray stallion. would the foal still be gray ?

[SandyMM]

y'all this makes my brain hurt lol
i have a gray mare that is almost snow white, when wet you can see that she has Sabino markings because of the pink skin, if she where breed to a non gray stallion. would the foal still be gray ?
IF she's really gray and not just a sabino/maximum white who has expressed more and more white over the years (sabino appears to 'grow' on some horses), then she has a 50-50 chance of passing the gray gene.... If she passes it, the offspring _will_ turn gray. So 50-50 chance of being gray.

How's your head now??? ;-)

[pasogalinbama]

better thanks :D
did y'all see the halter on the sabino on this web site http://pintopaso.com/stallions.html I want one.

[Blair]

I too have a gray mare with some pink spots. She is heterozygous gray (bay father, gray mom). One grandparent is listed on the pedigree as pinto. She is just now getting fairly white in her body and still has black points and a mixed mane/tail. When I was washing her last week I found she has pink spots on her skin when wet. These spots are scattered over her neck/shoulders/sides and hips and are very round and really fit the description and pattern of the birdcatcher spots discussed on this site http://www.equinecolor.com/unusual.html#bird

The site said these might be a form of Sabino so I am also trying to find out if her grandparent was a Sabino (form of Overo I am now learning). These spots could also be just a Sabino pattern I guess too. Now it will get really interesting - she was bred this week to a PPR stud who everyone calls a bay. However, when I finally got to see him in person, he has sabino type markings on his chest and flank too!! From my understanding, the baby will be bay with a 50% chance of the gray gene showing up and now maybe sabino??????

Has anyone seen these birdcatcher spots on a paso?
Blair

[SandyMM]

Which PPR stallion? Inquiring PPR-fancier minds want to know! :-)

[pasogalinbama]

mine is like that losts of pink spots all over her neck and hips, her sire (Jaquin Estaban) was Gray and her Dam (Lanina de Faeton LaCE) was Chestnut. she has dun and black in the blood line as well she is built a lot like her grandsire Faeton LaCE. she an't no little Paso

[motorgypsy]

Sabino is NOT a form of overo. One breed lumps them together for some reason but genetically they are different. Paso finos have sabino but not overo (frame)
Your mare could be homozygous grey on pinto IF both her parents are grey and would throw all grey babies. If she has one grey parent she has the 50% chance of throwing grey as Sandy mentioned.

locus is just location on the chromsome.

[Blair]

The PPR stud is Carreyto de CdC and my mare is 7/8 PPR (1/8 Cuban). He has been crossed with mares with similar phenotypes as mine with really nice results (he adds refinement and size - my mare is 13.2 on a good day!). This is my first try at breeding!

Blair

[Heidi]

Horses have loci for every color gene there is, Grey, Agouti, Creme, Tobaino, Sabino, Roan, etc. At each loci there is two genes. A foal gets one gene from the dam and one from the sire.

With these pairs they can be Homoz. ; Matching like (EE, black) or (ee, red). Or the pair can be Heteroz, not matching like (Ee, black).
I loved Stormie's description, however I came across one at another color site that I loved. The description was easy to visualize and understand because of the simple concept.

Stormie stated horses have loci (location?) for every color (and characteristic) gene there is. Some say "yes" be this, while others say "no" you cannot be this. Some of these work if there is only one 'yes' gene, while others only express if they both say 'yes'.
With this in mind, imagine your horse's DNA chain like a pair of folders at every location (loci). One folder receives a gene from the dam and one folder receives a gene from the sire. As the pairs are hooked together, they determine what characteristics are expressed.
Heidi

[Stormie]

Also keep in mind that Greys can have depigmentation in the skin also. Some call it pinkie syndrome. Normally this is seen around the eyes, nose, other soft areas and the hooves. It has been seen in other parts of the horse though.

[SandyMM]

I found three great sites on color genetics - no surprise - they're all on the UCDavis website that does PFHA's DNA testing!

"Genetic Formulas and Color Definitions"
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coats.html

"Alleles and Actions of Horse Coat Color Genes
Observed Effect of Alleles in Homozygous and Heterozygous Condition"
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/research/equine/lvmillon/coats2.html

"Red Factor & Agouti Breeding Table"
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolortable.html

[Linda Y]

Birdcatcher spots are a whole different ballgame!
I don't think that you could call them a marking or anything since they change location. I have 2 Pasos with them. We had a discussion on another forum about them, too. I need to go take a new photo of Desi's spots. He is getting so many of them he looks like a reverse dalmation!