Need ideas DNA and Paso paperwork..

[appyday]

Ok here goes.

I got the paperwork from Tami all ready to be sent to PFHA and I also got the DNA paperwork...I fill out what I need to and I pull hair and I send it in..

I get back Tekis papers no problem...I wonder why Diosas did not come in and I wait...and wait..I finally call the PFHA and low and behold Diosa matches her dad Chaparrons DNA but not her mothers. OK so they test all of Tamis mares (40 or so) NO match...So we go back and pull more of Diosas hair..again...match to father not mother...

She is not part draft (only other mares on Tamis farm) and we tested all her paso mares. The baby did not fall from the sky and get adopted by Tamis mare...

Anyone ever see this????????????? I am so confused...

[CarolU]

Maybe the stork delivered her. :shock: ;-)

To be honest I have never heard of this before...I have heard of sire's DNA not matching, but never dam's.

Did they redo the dam's DNA?

[Mrs. E.]

The next step would be to ask Tammi if she would DNA the mare again. Only thing I could think of that happened would be that the mares DNA test results may of been posted wrong somewhere along the line

[Tami Pinell]

I want to add that poor Mary Edmonds has pulled her hair out over this...
she has not only tested parents from MY farm but EVERY MARE or FILLY ever here and some that were bred to Chaparron in different states (they never were on the property)!
Horses that have died years before, those that are WAY to young to have foaled yet.... and a lot of mares that have never even seen my poor stallion.
I also want to add - I live on top of a mountain - in cattle country (not horse) - I have no horses that "live next door". The closest horses are 1 very old QH gelding and 2 very old Sullfolk geldings in one direction and a couple of miles away is a few spot appy mare. I would also like to add that Chaparron lives inside a closed barn so even if he gets out of his stall he is not able to open the huge barn doors.
Felina foaled on top of the mountain, had all the signs of foaling from dirty tail and butt to huge bag of milk and I'll kill you for grabbing my foal mother instincts - Laura and I put the foal into the back of Laura's Toyato 4-Runner and Felina followed us to the barn (1/2 mile away) - so I can not see this foal just "appearing from nowhere". Not even as a bad joke or hey I like your foal more than mine....
I could have bought this better if they would have told me I messed up the stallion but the mare????
Let's hear your ideas of what could have happened here - why the results are what they are...

[Tami Pinell]

Mrs. E - The mare is dead. I could have her dug up if needed... I have a full sister here! The one from the year before.

[appyday]

Yep remember this is an orphan filly..... :(

[Carol Nelson]

Well...my deceased husband used to say, "We KNOW who the mother is...."
Well, maybe we DON'T... ;-)
Weirdest thing I've ever heard of...I've never had THAT happen...thank God!

[Cindy]

Sounds to me like the mare's DNA is incorrect. I would start there. Can you see if the full sister's is a match to the deceased mare with what is on file?

[appyday]

Sounds to me like the mare's DNA is incorrect. I would start there. Can you see if the full sister's is a match to the deceased mare with what is on file?

I thought that too..I thought maybe someone "hung" papers on her...BUT that is not correct either as her foal last year matched her and she had other foals on file that matched her DNA so papers being "hung" on her is NOT an issue..

[Tami Pinell]

Deceased mare - Felina de Su Casa - has several registered foals so her DNA is correct. Her first foal for me is standing in my barn and is also a daughter of Chaparron Estelar - she is DNA, parent verified, and registered with PFHA.

Got an off the wall question that I forgot to ask the folks at the University - since I do not know how the actual lab test is run this is just brain storming.... IF the test is a protein based test to get to the DNA for actual mapping - since the hair folicle is a protein based structure and can absorb different chemical compounds - Question: Could a plasma (protein) transfusion interfer with the testing procedure?
In other words - since the baby was really sick and needed a transfusion of boost it - could part of that protien have been absorbed into the hair follicle and cause a false negative when stripping it off? I know that one can look into the hair to see if the body has absorbed different chemicals in the past.... If this is a "possibility" maybe a blood test would read differently.... Anyones thoughts??

Also - are there any different methods to recognize parents or DNA that may show if the full registered sister is actually a full sibling?

[Tami Pinell]

Well Shelley - I'm gonna say it!
It's those blue eyes that has messed up the whole darn thing - that is why a lot of paso breeders/owners just do not like them!
Chin up kid - we'll get to the bottom of this - heck this is just another one of those "normal, everyday, boring darn things" that happen to me everyday.....
I'm starting to feel like I'm living an Erma Bombeck book - "If life gives me a bowl of Cherrys, then why am I always in the pits!" :roll:

[appyday]

Tami but Teki had plasma too..and her DNA came out correct

[Tami Pinell]

You are correct and if the protein into the hair was the answer then the sire should have been botched also - just a question though. I do not know exactly how the test is run so it is just a brain fart.....

[Brigitte]

Hope you guys get it straightened out

[appyday]

but I bought her BECAUSE of her blue eyes...I LOVE them.... :(

[motorgypsy]

WOW! Sounds like one for CSI! They had a guy on there whose semen DNA didn't match his body DNA because he was originally some kind of twin that didn't separate or something. There was another one where a transplant changed the DNA. Shelley did you pull hairs from the mane or tail?? Wonder if that matters??? This would be really fascinating if it weren't so frustrating??? Does she look like her mom???

[appyday]

Both times I pulled from the center of the tail...bottom of the tailbone..

[Cindy]

I love the blue eyes as well.

Also - are there any different methods to recognize parents or DNA that may show if the full registered sister is actually a full sibling?


You mean the mother's full sister? I would think you could go back to the parents of the horses concerned.

What a mess. Hope you guys get it figured out. I can't think of anything else.

[Linda Y]

Wow.
I know that bone marrow transplants and sometimes blood transfusions can change DNA. Not sure about plasma. Since plasma isn't a blood type match, if she had a transfusion fairly close to the time the hairs were pulled, it may be a possibility, don't you think?
How about pulling hairs from the mane, at the base on the wither, and have it retested? Easier and cheaper than digging up that poor mare. And if the mare was already DNA tested and has a foal before from Chaparron that is verified, what would be the point of digging her up anyway?
Since all the mares, past and present, that are on the farm have been matched and eliminated, it basically rules out a baby swap. It HAS to be some sort of something in the hair that is giving out a false match.
I wish I knew more forensics.

[motorgypsy]

That is a thought - DNA of mom's parents. I don't know if it would make any different but we pull from the top of the tail - the short hairs right below the butt. they say you can do the mane also. The bottom of the mane where the hair is shorter should be easier. What a mystery?

[Tami Pinell]

The full sibling is Diosa's sister - I have Sirena Estelar born August 2, 2004 - sire Chaparron, dam Felina de Su Casa... Felina was bred back in foal heat to Chaparron to get Diosa in 2005.
I will throw in another twist here... I also owned Becky de Su Casa - Felina's half sister (and she was tested and is not the mother).

I would think that if there were DNA from both Diosa and Sirena, then a genetics lab should be able to tell me if they are full sisters.
And Kyle - let's not go to the twinning thing and weird DNA.... my life is interesting enough without all that.... ;-)
But now that you have said it - I do know of a result in a Tobiano testing which resulted in an "inconclusive". The sire of one of my horses was tested to see if he carried the Tobiano gene - he is a proven producer that showed he was NOT homozygous (he had solid babies on the ground). His test came back that he WAS homozygous even though his dam was a solid horse - making the testing result "inconclusive". When asked how this can happen it was told to me that there are various factors that can mask, cover up, or make the reading look different than they actually are - his was a unusual sooting, metalic, who-knows-what kind of color gene that made one of his Tobiano factors look homozygous......
Guess I'll stick to my guns - it's the BLUE eyes! :shock:

editted to say - Felina was not a young horse.... her parents have been gone for years. It would be easier to dig her up than dig for DNA stuff on her parents....

[Cindy]

I would think they could tell full siblings. They can in people.

[motorgypsy]

I know - she's really an alien!! A mutant!!!! A shape changer??? A superhero???

[appyday]

:(

[Tami Pinell]

Ok here is what really happened...
The US government uses my house as a view point for the F-15's and migs... they do really low flybys and it really makes me mad. I have called several times and told them that if I get hurt with a horse at the same time there is a fly by I am sueing the airforce and those involved the ordered that flyby - name by name.... SO...
they have been watching me - secretely conditioning Felina to take an alien child, then they came at night with the ground troops and forced poor Cowboy to do who knows what with this alien, when the time was right they flew in with one of those fancy silent choppers, out jumpped the sneeky good looking duds, popped this alien foal under the fence into the blackberries, zapped Felina, and flew off..... bingo.... Felina is a mom with a foal that was made by Chaparron and an alien. ;-)
Think I should sell the rights? Sounds like a good movie to me - we could call it "hump-back mountain" and we could put some big Rambo guy in it...... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[paintedhorizon]

Could you maybe compare the DNA to the full sister?

[SandyMM]

Just watched part of a show recently where a human parent and child's DNA didn't match - it was a paternity issue... Turns out the parent was a (?).... can't remember the name .... but the DNA is a 'problem'... basically, the parent carried two DNa sets and the 'wrong' one showed up in a test.

[Linda Y]

Here is something that may have happened, and wouldn't show up in retesting of the parent. This statement concerned paternity testing, but may be applicable to mom, too.

"paternity exclusion requires mismatch at two or more markers. Exclusion at only a single marker must be declared “inconclusive”. The reason being that there is a possibility that the single marker mismatch may be due to a mutation event occurring in the alleged parent. A mutation event will not show in the alleged parent’s profile but will be exhibited in the child’s profile. The probability of two mutational events occurring in the marker system is so remote it is not considered."

-------
and another

As mentioned before, random mutations can occur in any reproducing organism leading to drop out of alleles or allele identification changes. We have to take this into consideration when asked to compare offspring to possible sires. If we find a comparison yields one allele at each marker matching (that would be a 10 out of 10 match) then we report that the possible sire cannot be excluded. If we find that the profiles do not match at 2 or more markers then we report that the possible sire is excluded. If we find a 9 out of 10 match between the two animals we determine first if the marker that does not match is a homozygote (the same number twice) or if the two numbers differ by what would be a single mutation step. If either of these is true then we would not exclude the possible sire. If neither of these is true then we might report that the comparison is inconclusive and additional testing with more markers is needed to exclude or not exclude. If we do find that we have a 9 out of 10 match we will also go back and check the raw data to eliminate the possibility that an error has been made in copying the data to the report.

If everything works out 10 out of 10 for both the mother and sire comparisons the interpretation is simple. But when it does not work out as expected, due to the complexity of the analysis, I would hope that you would let us make the calls for you.

[motorgypsy]

See - MOM is the mutant!!

I llike the story Tami! Would make a great movie!

Seriously I wonder just how much "off" the DNA is from mom. Sounds like someone needs to talk to UCDavis to find out the particulars of the test. This one should interest them anyway. There is a way to talk to them personally. I asked by email a while ago and they gave me a phone number and a person'a name. Unfortunately that hard drive croaked so I don't have the info now.

[Tami Pinell]

I am waiting for a phone call from the U of KY at this time - going to see if we can match the sisters together.

[NikiGA]

Don't feel lonesome. This happened to me a few years ago. And I know of at least one other person this has happened to. Sire matched, dam was wrong. Tried every mare on the farm and even a few others. No dice, and it never was solved. Sorry to be a downer. I certainly hope your luck is better than mine! :roll:

[jan k]

Had the opposite happen with a foal out of my mare. They tested every stallion and colt on the farm. Took a trip to the PFHA office to find there were 2 DNA samples on the same stallion and one was contaminated. Finally got it straightened out and got the filly registered.

There is hope