Questions on these types

[JennLM]

This is a learning experience for me so be gentle LOL

I swear I had read these horses were not Paso Fino's but a different breed. Is this true?

If so, what breeds did they use to create them?

From what I am reading here, it's just a natural relaxed gait some Paso Fino's retain after their initial training and not something forced. Something very few can still do after they start training.

[Pasogirlz]

From what I have read...and I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong. :oops: ;-) They are closely related, sorta like cousins.

But I have read that both breeds developed from basically the same three breeds to begin with, but have a more diagonal influence in gait. But that confirmation has a lot ot due with it. The angles of the shoulder, the hips, the lenght of back, neck etc. So I think they were sorta evolving at the same time, and the characteristics for each were defined thru breeding over the years and evolved into what we have today in both breeds.

Let me see if I can find the link to the book I read some of this in. Unfortunatly...I lost the book at the airport and never got to finish it. :-?

[JennLM]

LOL More books to get.

I just got my 4 books I orderd on Paso's and have lots of reading to do. It will give me something to do while it's 100+ outside and need to hide inside in the a/c.

[Pasogirlz]

What books did you order? Maybe its on its way already. ;-)

[Kerry W]

The diagonals originated from the Don Danilo line. Don Danilo was sired by the Paso Fino Rey Cometa, his dam Danesa, was 1/2 Paso Fino, 1/2 Lusitano. Don Danilo could perform all of the gaits of the Caballo Criollo Colombiano; Trocha Pura, Trocha y Galope, Trote y Galope and Paso Fino. Danilo's "preferred" modality was the Trocha y Galope, and he was declared Fuera de Concurso in this modality.

In Colombia, they consider these horses to be the same breed.

This is a link to the American Trote and Trocha Association...the US regsitry for the diagonals:

Breed info page
http://usatta.org/breedinfo.htm

Edited to add:
These are each unique modalities. They are not "mistakes" or the result of poor training. :D

[JennLM]

Ahh ok am getting it now. Thanks for explaining it.

The books I got were Paso Fino & Paso Fino II by Wendy Spring, Training Your Paso Fino-A Basic Guide by Betsy McHugh, the 4th is on it's way and darned if I can remember the name.

[JennLM]

The last book is just Eye Candy, the Robert Vavra book "Stallions of the Quest". HUbba hubba!

[Pasogirlz]

http://www.kudastore.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KS&Product_Code=50001&Category_Code=04

There is the link for the book. It basically tells the whole evolution of the Paso Fino and its modalities which it also covers the Trote and Trocha too. Its a little bit difficult to follow b/c it was translated so it does not read smooth. But a lot of good information in there.

[SandyMM]

The diagonals originated from the Don Danilo line. Don Danilo was sired by the Paso Fino Rey Cometa, his dam Danesa, was 1/2 Paso Fino, 1/2 Lusitano. Don Danilo could perform all of the gaits of the Caballo Criollo Colombiano; Trocha Pura, Trocha y Galope, Trote y Galope and Paso Fino. Danilo's "preferred" modality was the Trocha y Galope, and he was declared Fuera de Concurso in this modality.

In Colombia, they consider these horses to be the same breed.

They may be the same breed, but they have different registries - although I believe they are all managed by the same entity. There are separate classes for trocha, trote, and paso fino-gaited horses.

Trocha, trocha y galope, and trote y galope horses are not supposed to be registered as Paso Finos in PFHA, but many were brought in, registered, and bred into the pure Paso Fino bloodlines long before most Americans knew they existed.

[Kerry W]

All four modalities are registered through Fedequinas, in Colombia. In their shows, you are allowed to show your horse in any modality you wish, as long as you show it in the group that is age appropriate. Not many people do this, but it is allowed.

Edited to add:
You may not show a horse in a different modality in the same show. After the age of 5, you may not show in a different modality than what is listed on the horses registration papers.

[SandyMM]

Just a question... If they can show in any modality, why have diifferent registries?

[Kerry W]

They don't have different registries. If you look at it like PFHA...we have fino, performance and pleasure, and they are all registered with PFHA. They have Paso Fino, Trocha, Trocha y Galope and Trote y Galope, all registered with Fedequinas. The gaits are different from one another, but all of the gaits are for them, of the same breed (Caballo Criollo Colombiano).

When a horse is born there, it is registered in the same modality as it's sire and dam (it is marked on their papers). Until the age of 5, you may request a change of modality for your horse, if it executes a modality different from that of it's original registration. In order to receive a change in modality, the horse must be judged by 3 people, a Fedequinas certified judge, a veterinarian and the president of the regional association in which your horse is registered. If they decide that the horse is executing the modality that you wish to have it changed to, then the registration papers are changed.

The shows there are different, in that they do not separate the classes according to type of Paso Fino gait. They separate the classes by age, and by sex. For example, all of the Paso Fino 4 year old colts show together in the same class, regardless of whether they are pleasure gaited, tight tight fino, or somewhere in between. Same with the mares. They have all of these classes for all four modalities, at every show.

This is how Don Danilo became such a popular horse...he won in all 4 modalities. That is what made him the stallion that everyone wanted to breed to...few can do it all, and do it well enough to win.

Here is a link to a post I made about Fedequinas:
http://americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6950

Here we have a separate registry for the diagonals, as we do not see them as the same breed. This does not make sense to most Colombians, as most of the bloodlines are the same...in fact there are quite a few descendants of Don Danilo registered through PFHA.

[Pasogirlz]

Good explaination Kerry.

[Brigitte]

They are kinda the same breed as Paso Finos, it's kinda like this. The breed is Paso Fino, and then you have the paso fino horse, the trocha, tyg and trocha y galope.

Sometimes the finos start off in a trocha the first few rides, then they "catch" the fino. They trocha because they still have to find balance and all. I have seen a fino gelding who could trot, and did it pretty good too. He even placed in TyG geldings. Now he does fino again.

Here we only have one organisation for all the different pasos. Colombia it's the same and Venezuela too. Puerto Rico and Santo Domingo don't have as many diagonal horses and I don;t know about their registries

[SandyMM]

They don't have different registries. If you look at it like PFHA...we have fino, performance and pleasure, and they are all registered with PFHA. They have Paso Fino, Trocha, Trocha y Galope and Trote y Galope, all registered with Fedequinas. The gaits are different from one another, but all of the gaits are for them, of the same breed (Caballo Criollo Colombiano).
The difference is that every Paso Fino class in PFHA requires a perfectly even four beat gait - the most basic difference is the style of execution of that gait. That makes for a huge difference between the Paso Fino and the modalities of the Paso Colombiano.

[Kerry W]

The Paso Fino classes there, require correctness of gait as well. The Trocha classes require correctness of gait for that modality. The Trote classes require correctness of gait for that modality. A horse that executes the Paso Fino gait in a Trote y Galope class, would be excused from the class, and vice versa. Each modality has it's own requirements.

Yes, the gaits are quite different between the different modalities there. They still consider it to be one breed...four modalities. Not four separate breeds. I used style of execution in PFHA as an example of how they register all four modalities in one registry, not as a comparison between OUR style of execution and the diagonal modalities.

This is a schedule of one day of classes, for a typical show in Colombia. They show different modalities on different days:

Paso Fino

Mares:
18-26 mos.(lead rope)
32-38 mos.(schooling)
38-48 mos.
48-60 mos.
60-72 mos.
> 72 mos.

Stallions:
18-26 mos.(lead rope)
32-38 mos.(schooling)
38-48 mos.
48-60 mos.
60-72 mos.
> 72 mos.

Geldings:
There is one gelding class held for each modality...all ages are allowed to compete in this one class

The next day, they have classes for another modality. They really don't have time to separate by style of execution...the shows would last for weeks! :lol:

[SandyMM]

No argument there... only that the Paso Fino _breed_ in this country has always required just one footfall (excepting classes that require canter/lope), whereas the Paso Colombiano _breed_ allows a variety of footfalls - 3/4 of which are diagonal-based. This no doubt explains why trocha in the American Paso Fino is often ignored or overlooked...

[motorgypsy]

It is not at all typical for a paso fino to also show in the trocha modality though which is why Don Danilo was so amazing. Tell him which modality and he could do it perfectly. Trochadors are not the same lines as the paso fino although many paso finos will trocha when resting. Trochadors do not do the paso fino gait. This is why we enjoyed mundial so much. We got to see some of the other modalities.

[SandyMM]

My older Paso Fino bloodlines did not trocha when tired... they just asked to walk for a few minutes...... ;-)

[Kerry W]

In providing this information, it was not my intention to say what is right, and what is wrong...only to share a little information about the structure of their registry, and their system of showing the horses. I thought perhaps there might be others who would appreciate the information. :bsmile

[SandyMM]

Thanks for the information. It was very helpful. I was not not aware that modalities were registered in the same registry...

It really helps explain the difference between expectations and procedures used with the Paso Colombiano and the Puerto Rican Paso Fino with regards to gaits, registration, and showing.

[Brigitte]

No argument there... only that the Paso Fino _breed_ in this country has always required just one footfall (excepting classes that require canter/lope), whereas the Paso Colombiano _breed_ allows a variety of footfalls - 3/4 of which are diagonal-based. This no doubt explains why trocha in the American Paso Fino is often ignored or overlooked...

It allows different modalities, only thing is that the horse has to show in the correct modality

[SandyMM]

So - can it be correct to call the horses "Colombian Paso Fino" - when that would only apply to a (#?) percentage of the breed?

[Kerry W]

.

[SandyMM]

Easier, but perhaps not accurate... "Colombian-bred Paso"? 8-)

[motorgypsy]

Our Colombian friends in Colombia when we lived there called the ones who do paso fino, Paso Fino Colombiano. This was the first place we actually saw the breed and fell in love with it.

And again we have a show quality PPR, have ridden several PPR's, visted several barns who specialize in the PPR and gone to the PPR shows since 1984. They will also go off gait when tired, pushed beyond range of gait or when just fooling around. After all - Coral LaCe was pure Colombian.

We love them both and the mixes. We do hope people won't breed those who really don't gait. This is obviously bad for the breed.

As far as we understand which may not be correct, in Puerto Rico the horses who don't gait well just aren't registered because people don't want to waste the money.

In Colombia they do recognize at least three different modalities for native horses that perform them correctly but again as I understand it is not typical to breed paso fino to trochador or the reverse. They have one registration organization for native horses but the registries are kept separate for the different modalities. Don Danilo was the exception since he could do them all. I don't personally have a problem with a horse who can do them all but want one who prefers the paso fino AND has a good range of gait.

[Brigitte]

The whole Paso Fino breed thing is complicated. I never really understood how it is. You have the Paso Fino breed which consists of Paso Finos, Trochadores and Trotones. That's what I was told :confused who knows

[stella]

Historically, its the Puerto Rican horses that were first called Paso FINOS. The Colombians then called all the horses Criollos Colombianos, and the ones of even modality were called Paso Colombianos, and only after the "business opportunity" presented itself to export horses to PR and USA did they start referring to Colombian Paso horses (even ones) as Paso Finos.
This can not only be documented in the book, "Champions of the Americas," which devotes a chapter to each of the 10 breeds started in the New World(Pub. 1970)...one to Paso Finos in PR, another to Paso Colombianos in Colombia (trocha is also discussed) and another to Paso Peruanos(Peruvians)...
Also, in the Colombian Mags that are basically show programs for Asdepaso, etc...I have several - in the ones from the 70s they list those classes for "Paso Colombianos" ...and others for "Trocha, " Trote y Gallope, Trocha y Gallope.....only after about '80 do you see, "Paso FINO Colombiano."
That is what causes alot of contention amongst PR afficiandos, rightly the name, "PASO FINO" refers to the PR horse.

I'm not anti Colombian, I have mostly COl blood, I'm just making a totally objective factual historical statement.

[motorgypsy]

Ahhh see we were in Colombia from 1982 to 1984 so by that time they had adopted the name paso fino for one of their native horse modalities. Thank you very much for the history lesson. I guess it's like aspirin and became a generic term for the horse that does the even four beat gait and came from Spanish stock.

It's interesting now that the pictures I'm seeing of PPR show stock are the very large powerful horses rather than the more delicate narrow horses like Kofresi. Yet they do have Kofresi breeding. I guess Guamani size came through because our double and more Kofresi mare is huge also and certainly not narrow.

Also the trote galope horses seem much larger and more muscular than the Colombian version of the paso fino. More Andalusion perhaps????

This is very interesting!

[stella]

Because horses like Alicante and Sonador are often in the tail female lines, and Pincel lines throw size and substance!

[SandyMM]

Perhaps this should be the start of another thread or in another forum titled the future of the Paso Fino breed.....
only after the "business opportunity" presented itself to export horses to PR and USA did they start referring to Colombian Paso horses (even ones) as Paso Finos.
And therein lies the crux of the issue.... 2 problems arose...
1. Colombian Pasos are given 5 years to declare their preferred modality of gait for registration, but can be trained or allowed to show in other modalities - to a breeder of purely Paso Fino-gaited horses, this presents a major difficulty in guranteeing the offsprings' gait preference.
2. Many 'uneven'-bred Pasos with heavy trocha breeding and production were imported to the U.S., sold, and registered as 'Paso Fino' to buyers who were unaware of the difference. Almost immediately offspring began to appear in the show ring who appeared to have 'confused' gaits - and why not? They were heavily bred to be predisposed to do one 'modality' - perfectly acceptable - even expected - in Colombia, but were ridden and trained by owners who believed they were born to do the 'Paso Fino' gait naturally. They were often big, flashy, and won, but many of us stood around scratching our heads wondering what was 'off kilter'.... until a large group of trainers and owners went to Colombia in the early 80s.... only then did the word 'trocha' begin to filter in to the American 'database'.

Again - this is not to say that any of the diagonal gaits are inherently 'bad' - they just aren't the quintessential 'Paso Fino' gait nor do they attempt to be.

In breeding, then, this creates a massive problem.... not in Colombia, because - as was explained - there is one registry with 4 'modalities' and shows with classes for all four modalities. But - if the Colombian registry allows _5_ years to determine what modality a Colombian-bred Paso is best suited for.... even when breeding 'known' producing bloodlines to each other.... how can Colombian bloodlines introduced into a 'pure' Paso Fino registry guarantee an 'even' gait..... It is extremely difficult at best and requires an astute breeder who _knows_ pure Paso Fino gait. (Probably the best example of this is the Coral LaCE bloodline. Although Coral himself was pure Colombian, he did not inherit any of the diagonal-based genetics (whether that was one gene or a combination of genes). This is born out in the fact that his offspring produced no trocha-based gaits.)

And therein lies another business angle... if your registered 'Paso Fino' can't or won't do the 'Paso Fino' gait naturally - what do you do - especially if you want to show? And what happens to the time, money and emotional investments people have made on registered Paso Finos who prefer the diagonal-based gaits, but aren't acceptable to the diagonal-based registries?

What happens to the reputation of the Paso Fino breed promoted as the 'Smoothest Riding Horse in the World' that people are led to believe _all_ perform the hallmark even four beat gait - as a natural birthright?

[Lori Perez]

Sandy - you have so many incorrect statements in your email I really don't know where to begin. I don't want to be harsh or anything but most all of the Pasos that came to the USA in the very early years were not of the best qualities, including but not limited to Coral LaCE.

The pure trocha horses are most prized in Colombia (today) and the purest of all the modalities.

If you visit Colombia you will not see Paso Fino horses in the ring or being bred that are out of gait like you will see here in the United States.

Paso Fino horses that are out of gait are not TROCHA.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Lori Perez, are you going to the GP??? let me know!!!!

Saludos

I know Lori F. is !!!!!!!!! and is invited to sit with us!!!!! :razz: :razz: :razz:

[Lori Perez]

Yes we are going. We are taking two horses. We are going to have an exhibition there so I must be there. I would go anyway.

[cowboy ed]

i have seen and ridden horses with Coral LaCE bloodlines that trotted and didnt do a four beat gait. i have seen and ridden some predominantly puerto rican horses that didnt gait well, too. so there are some differences within the registered paso fino horses as we are all aware of. ideally, all registered paso fino horses would perform the paso fino gait, but they dont.

the colombiano horses that do the different modalities were selectively bred to perform those modalities. i dont know all the particulars of how those horses were bred. i would stop just short of saying it is a closely guarded secret. ;-)