Questions On Pasos

[JennLM]

Being new to Paso's I had aquestion pop in my head today.

From what I have seen a lot of people who breed for trail only Paso's are almost looked down on by Show Paso Breeders. I have seen a handful of references regarding breeding for trail Pasos as a lesser type of Paso. Some may argue they don't think so. And I am not saying everyone says it or it should be that way or anything like that. It's just the feeling I get when I read some of the posts here.

The Paso was originally a working horse on farms, correct?

Breeding for trail would be basically getting back to the roots of the original Pasos.

When did Pasos branch off and be more a show type and is that mainly in other countries?

Are Pasos still used in other countries for it's original purpose?

[Pasogirlz]

In my personal opinion...I see resentment coming from BOTH sides of the fence. :roll: Sometimes I reallly a feeling of anti-finoism on this forum, which makes me feel strange about really liking and showing fino.

The latins tend to favor the show fino stock. The Americans tend to favor the trail and pleasure stock. Its all in preference, and one is not better than the other. There is versatility w/in the breed, and that is GREAT. It's just that there is certainly a riff between the two and connecting them is a tedious task for sure.

Many Americans (like you and I) come into the breed and are JUST learning the history and culture behind it. And there is SO much to learn.
We start out just wanting a trail paso. Something smooth to ride. And as we learn more, and have the opportunity to ride other pasos, you can see and feel the differences in them. I started out thinking I would never be into fino...but I am now. The ride is fantastic.....and so is a largo horse. They will both bring a smile to your face.

I see a lot of ppl snubbing the fino horses and they have never even tried one. That bothers me. :-? **and vice versa.**

JMHO

[Barbwire]

As you are a newbie, I shall try to be nice, BUT, this thread is a loaded gun. I shall now run for cover.

[CarolU]

To answer your first question, quality and value are always in the eye of the beholder. But yes, there is a certain amount of eletism with show breeders, owners, and trainers. But, I think that is true in any breed.

There have been show horses for years...not sure when it started in the Caribbean, but there were distinctly two types of Pasos when Dave Jones went to Colombia to buy breeding stock. He bypassed the show horses and wanted to import the "Worlds smoothest Pleasure Horse" To that end he looked at horses with natural gait (which gait wasn't important, as long as it was smooth and consistent), good conformation, and a pleasure to ride. These are the Merridian Meadows stock, horses that have a "que Tal" at the end of their names. Dave went into the mountains of Colombia and bought cattle-working stock. Some of his well known imported stallions were Baron que tal, Hilaches, and Mahoma.

Other importers during this time had other priorities, and bought show horses, these would be like George LaHood, who's horses end in LaCE. He broght in Mar de Plata, Coral, others. Zieglers also brought in horses.

A popular practice was to cross Colombian stallions with Puerto Rican mares. The mares had larger hips to carry the foals easier. Stella should really talk about this. She knows what qualities they were looking for.

I believe the big change to Colombian show lines came during the 1980's. The Colombians had/have a lot more money to promote their horses and pretty much changed the direction the breed was going in the U.S. At least in the show ring.

Not all people like the show lines or the high stepping, high brio horses. There are still many breeders who breed the old Foundation lines exclusively with Dave Jones' vision in mind. I know that I personally prefer the conformation and beauty of the older line horses, particulary Eblis, Mahoma and Hilaches offspring.

I would say (JMHO) that there are two distinct schools in the U.S., almost to the point of two breeds. One being the show horse lines, which do have the high dollar horses at the top end, but have a saturated market at the low end (show culls) that sell for dirt cheap pricies, especially in the SE. The other is the substantial trail-pleasure horse market, which seems to stay pretty consistent and sell a medium price ($3-$7K), sound and sane horse.

One of the inconsistencies is that many show people people believe that culls and ex show horses make good trail horses, while the majority of trail riders have a distinct definition of what makes a "trail horse." Riding a horse on trails does not make it a "TRAIL HORSE" anymore then riding one in an arena makes it a "SHOW HORSE."

[CarolU]

I should also add that I believe there is room in the breed for both types of horse AND owners. What needs to change is that they both have to accept and appreciate each other's desires and each other's horses.

Other breeds have distinct 'types' within the breed...reining, cutting vs racing vs halter/pleasure QH's...all have different body types and their own popular lines. The same is true for Thoroughbreds, Arabians, Morgans...etc.

The Paso Fino has evolved into two types. We should accept the unique GOOD characterisitics of both, appreciate them, recognize them, and move on, promoting both.

[qltrlori]

Well, as a newbie myself, I have similar questions. We are counting on you guys for information! I have had a hard time finding printed info on the Paso Fino. The books I have seen are either out of print or very expensive. And how are we even going to know if a question is a loaded gun if no one is willing to discuss it?

I am counting on the people in this forum to discuss things without blasting people, which is a very ugly thing I have seen on another unmentioned forum.

Lori

[Pasogirlz]

I should also add that I believe there is room in the breed for both types of horse AND owners. What needs to change is that they both have to accept and appreciate each other's desires and each other's horses.

Other breeds have distinct 'types' within the breed...reining, cutting vs racing vs halter/pleasure QH's...all have different body types and their own popular lines. The same is true for Thoroughbreds, Arabians, Morgans...etc.

The Paso Fino has evolved into two types. We should accept the unique GOOD characterisitics of both, appreciate them, recognize them, and move on, promoting both.

I agree w/this 100% I keep repeating myself around here...but so many things boil down to a)preference, and b) perspective. And we all have to appreciate each others perferences and perspectives. ;-)

I think this forum has done a great job of discussing the hot topics w/o getting too out of hand. A little passionate sometimes maybe. ;-)

[qltrlori]

I think this forum has done a great job of discussing the hot topics w/o getting too out of hand. A little passionate sometimes maybe. ;-)[/quote]

Passionate is good!

Lori

[JennLM]

Wow, great replies! And much of what I was looking for. Yes, finding information like this is what I was hoping for. A good discussion with lots of info.

Aww Barb, you don't seem like the faint of heart type ;-)

With so many people new coming here lately, and many are new like me, I am sure they will love learning from this thread.

[ErinC]

I have an awesome link saved on one of my many computers, I will try to find


this is just another one

http://www.equiworld.net/uk/horsecare/Breeds/pasofino/

[Pasogirlz]

These are the questions that almost all newbies have. I always say...it's a learning process for us. As we progress, new questions arise. We learn so that we can form our own opinions. One thing I do notice...is that it is human nature to believe what you are told, or tend to favor the environement you are in. If the ppl in your area are into pleasure and trail, then you are more likely to be into that. When you are in Miami, it is natural for you to learn about and favor fino. The other is forgein to you. I personally try to help expose both points of view to each other and make them understand where they are coming from. Its the only way to close the gap.

For instance, this weekend I spent time w/Barb. She doesn't care who the latest fino stallion is and is bored by show talk. But she hasn't been exposed to it really. I showed her a DVD this weekend of La Fortuna horses. I think she was a little surprised how much she liked the looks of them. She commented how they looked happy doing their job. Some horses thrive on it. They are bred for it and love it. Others are not. Some have the capabilities but their minds have been blown b/c they were rushed or they have been tramatized somehow or another.

On the other hand. Everytime I take someone from Miami to the farm and let them ride moms largo mare. They come back smiling and raving. She is ideal for crusing the farm and trail riding.

And I wanted to address your question about what they do w/horses in other countries. They don't separate Fino, Performance, Pleasure like we do here. (in fact some say we invented Performance and Pleasure, but that's a whole other thread ;-) ). There is a thread that explains the way they do it in Colombia somewhere here. I'll dig it up for you. But basically, if the horse is not show quality, they use them on the farms for working and the traditional uses. They are family horses in some cases like ours. They are just not used for breeding usually.

[Pasofinoguy]

When did Pasos branch off and be more a show type and is that mainly in other countries I read in a old paso book that showing pasos came about a very long time ago. Showing off there horses on main street soon became a very big thing. Having the best paso was a sign of wealth and status. So they were then breed for better looks and speed. But in colombia they still use them for trail and just to ride and many to show. You just cant look into the pasos past without seeing some kind of competition with them. They are a flashy breed and they have lots of style. The only difference from 50 years ago to today is there is more of them and they have faster footfall. The shows have changed and some dont like what it has become but others keep moving on.

[CarolU]

That was an interesting article Erin...up until the pure fiction from the fifth paragraph on, I agreed with it totally - especially the fourth paragraph.

Dr. Deb Bennett studied the bones of very many breeds and dispelled all 'myths' that any breed was stronger or had a higher weight carrying capacity then any other. Even PFHW published a guideline on horse weight to rider weight ratios that went right along with the 20-25% guidelines that the rest of the equine world recognizes. The smallest horse that should carry a 250 lb man would be a 1000 lb Paso. That's a pretty good sized horse. And that 250 lbs includes the weight of the saddle.

Now DO Pasos carry more weight...yes they do. Is it OKAY for them to do so is another story. But, let's not try to fool anyone that they are different - in fact the opposite may be true. The gait is a very concusive gait and impacts hard surfaces very hard. The recent article on Navicular is a good example of what happens.

[Serendipity]

Hey Jenn,
I tend to stay in the middle ground and tend to get a lot of flack at times.I love to trail ride and do so most of the times,but I also love to show when I can afford to go so I go with the bloodlines that will do both like those to fillies I told you about Or if you've seen any Pix's of Prueba.Our Colt we bought is Performance quility like his daddy so a little hotter.
So pretty much its all persective like Lori and CarolU said.You decide the type of horse you want and be open minded,I have friends that are almost strickly trail rided and some that are only into show and see they roll there eyes at my going done the alses riding my horse that I forgot to up a saddle on or bridle...but I've got a halter and lead so I'm good to go ;-) ,

I also thinkd peoples preceranc ecomes into play also those that like a long loose gait are not going to breed to a very compact tightly gaited horse,we like what we like and tend to be vocal about what we don't,Our bred has 2 destinct fallowings but that common in all breeds I don't like a QH Reining horse breeded would have much in common with a Halter horse breeder they really are 2 different type of horses

[PasoVicki]

I have a question, which I'd like to preface by stating that I've never had the opportunity to attend a Paso show or to see a Fino horse in live action. I do believe I'd enjoy the experience of watching . . . but, due to personal circumstances, I can't imagine that I'd ever get involved in showing or in breeding fino horses. I do very much enjoy trail riding and just having horses.

Now, Carol said:

I would say (JMHO) that there are two distinct schools in the U.S., almost to the point of two breeds. One being the show horse lines, which do have the high dollar horses at the top end, but have a saturated market at the low end (show culls) that sell for dirt cheap pricies, especially in the SE. The other is the substantial trail-pleasure horse market, which seems to stay pretty consistent and sell a medium price ($3-$7K), sound and sane horse.

which makes me wonder what actually becomes of all those horses in the "saturated market' which are constantly advertised for "dirt cheap prices." I'm guessing that a lot of them, having been bred for a specific purpose (ie, to be fino show horses), don't adapt well to becoming back yard pets and trail horses, or at least don't adapt well without help. Are there trainers who actually work with these horses to help them to become adapted to a life they weren't bred for? Or do they usually end up bouncing from one "newbie" owner to another, because the newbies don't really understand why they are for sale "dirt cheap"?

Sorry. I don't want to cause trouble by asking such a loaded question. However, I have heard comments (not on this forum) that would seem to imply that Paso Finos shouldn't be bred specifically to be pleasure and trail horses -- because doing so floods the "niche" that should be filled by show horse culls. And yet, it seems that show horse culls don't necessarily have the qualities that would make them good pleasure and trail horses.

[Carol Nelson]

From what I have seen a lot of people who breed for trail only Paso's are almost looked down on by Show Paso Breeders. I have seen a handful of references regarding breeding for trail Pasos as a lesser type of Paso.

Sometimes, I (who breed a Pleasure Paso Fino) tend to feel that way...certainly the prices one gets for a Fino horse are much higher than those that a trail horse brings. I live for the day a good trail horse brings more than a show horse...but I doubt that will ever happen. Certainly I feel they are more valuable.

The Paso was originally a working horse on farms, correct?
Breeding for trail would be basically getting back to the roots of the original Pasos.

In the Latin American countries, the Paso Fino was originally bred to travel the large plantations, and give their owners, who were sometimes in the saddle for many hours, a smooth and comfortable ride. So in that way, yes, the Pleasure Paso is certainly more what the original Paso Fino was like. If you want to go way back to Columbus days...well, I'm sure the conquistadors rode more the Pleasure-like Paso Fino as they too needed to get long distances in a faster way.

Sometimes I reallly a feeling of anti-finoism on this forum, which makes me feel strange about really liking and showing fino.

Lori, I don't think it's so much anti-finoism that you find, as 'anti-methods-it-takes-to-get-that-horse-to-fino-ism'. There is nothing more beautiful, and more delightful to ride than a finely-gaited, naturally fino horse. But the key word is NATURAL.

And Carol, I applaud you for your weight-carrying opinions! I, time and again, instruct people that no, a small Paso Fino should no more carry an extremely large person than a small horse of any other breed. That is why I have several larger Paso mares...trying to serve that part of our population better...breeding a larger Paso Fino and yet keeping the quality of gait.

If the ppl in your area are into pleasure and trail, then you are more likely to be into that.

Yes, yes, of course! I will enlarge upon that idea to say that you need to supply the type of Paso Fino that is marketable in your area. It would be ludicrous for me here in Texas to breed and market a show-type Paso when there are few shows here in this state, and the greater part of the population here wants a horse for trail and western pleasure.

Fino or Pleasure, there is a place for both, and no, there should be no "looking down the noses" from either faction. But agreed, it is not just the Paso breed that has to deal with that...and it's not likely to change.

[Monty]

Had to giggle at Adam's comments - had a thought flash through my mind - :lol:
Paso/horses were here before cars - and what do "men" without a Paso/horse show off ? Cars and trucks - the bigger/faster and flashier the better .
Then there are the "farm" trucks ,may not be flashy but go all day and get the job done. ;-) Sooooooo , nothing has changed ! :lol:
Ok - at one time we were all new to Pasos - first mare I had was smooth as glass and a daisy clipper - not flashy, but fast - she was pure Colombian(half sister to Mahoma), now I have a pure Puerto Rican gelding - he is a largo horse and it is a different ride and feel -
And they were totally different in build and conformation - she was dainty and he is built like a tank! Actually thought the first time I saw him he was a qtr horse ! :oops:
I love to watch fino horses - but ,to me they are show horses and doubt I would buy one for that part - to each his/her own .
If I ever get the chance to buy another Paso - I would prefer the old Colombian lines like Venus was - and "short! :roll: JMHO

Here is a link to two articles about Paso Finos in The Gaited Horse Magazine that I thought were well written - http://www.thegaitedhorse.com/gaitedbreeds.htm

[Carol Nelson]

Are there trainers who actually work with these horses to help them to become adapted to a life they weren't bred for? Or do they usually end up bouncing from one "newbie" owner to another, because the newbies don't really understand why they are for sale "dirt cheap"?


Yes, I do believe there are trainers that do do this sort of thing, or any Natural Horsemanship trainer can work with this type of horse this way. I believe Carol U falls into this category...and Cowboy Ed...

But as for the second part, yes, I've brokered a few horses and a lot of them are unfortunately, this way...seems once this way of training is pounded into them...it's difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to change their mindsets. :-? Again, bloodlines also can definitely contribute to it.

I'm going to edit this to comment on my own last comment...ha! Bloodlines contribute...but I have some mares, and of course, my stallion, Rojo, that come from pretty hot bloodlines, and yet these horses are not what you call "hot"...I really tend to think that handling has a great deal to do with the "temperature" of the horse.

[Pasogirlz]

I also wanted to take this opportunity to point out...you CAN trail ride some fino/show horses. La Fortuna bought down 8 of theirs to our farm and we had NO problems. First of all, a lot of fino horses have a range of gait that you never get to see in the ring. So they can move out on the trail just fine when asked. And they were not spooky on the trails at all. I was very impressed. So it just depends on the individual horse. ;-)

[CarolU]

which makes me wonder what actually becomes of all those horses in the "saturated market' which are constantly advertised for "dirt cheap prices." I'm guessing that a lot of them, having been bred for a specific purpose (ie, to be fino show horses), don't adapt well to becoming back yard pets and trail horses, or at least don't adapt well without help. Are there trainers who actually work with these horses to help them to become adapted to a life they weren't bred for? Or do they usually end up bouncing from one "newbie" owner to another, because the newbies don't really understand why they are for sale "dirt cheap"?


There are basically three types of "culls" (personally hate that word), horses bred for speed of footfall, which is often trocha, that won't do the Paso gait consistently enough for showing. These are usually sold cheap as youngsters. The Paso Fino that looses it's mind being trained (a very sad fact in our breed). These are sadly 'foisted' off on unsuspecting owners, used as breeding stock if they are a mare, or sold at auction. And third, the Paso Finos that are bred and trained for show, but aren't quite fast enough for our highly competitive national competition. These are usually sold too, may even have a few regional championships. In the SouthEast, where many, many Paso Fino farms are and where most show horses are bred and raised, these three types of horses saturate the new owner and pleasure market. If you are lucky, you buy the third type horse and enjoy showing in small regional shows.

Sorry. I don't want to cause trouble by asking such a loaded question. However, I have heard comments (not on this forum) that would seem to imply that Paso Finos shouldn't be bred specifically to be pleasure and trail horses -- because doing so floods the "niche" that should be filled by show horse culls. And yet, it seems that show horse culls don't necessarily have the qualities that would make them good pleasure and trail horses Those kinds of sentiments have been expressed here too and I'm sure you'll hear them again. The problem (to us recreational riders) is that the characteristics that are bred for, for show - fast footfall and high brio - do not lend themselves to trail and pleasure riding. The 'culls' are frequently non-gaited, ruined by harsh training methods, or are medium to high brio and beyond the capabilities of most new owners and pleasure riders. Ever notice how many ads have "needs experienced rider" in them?

This is where I say that there are two types of horses and BOTH should be recognized as worthwhile, different and worthwhile. Most pleasure riders want a horse that can live in the backyard, does not require professional training to make it gait, does not have any 'issues', and is safe and calm. Yes, you will find this kind of horse in all bloodlines as individuals, but more predomently in pleasure horses bred to be pleasure. 80% of personality is inherited.

[CarolU]

One other comment that should be made. Paso Finos are remarkably easy to ride. Even the highly animated Fino horses are usually pushbutton babies. The 'fire and brimstone' and rapid footfall scares the begeesus out of most people unfamiliar to the breed, but people that are used to it, aren't intimidated by it - they love it. So, for them, a 'fire and brimstone' horse IS a pleasure to ride.

It isn't for Grandma.

[PasoVicki]

I also wanted to take this opportunity to point out...you CAN trail ride some fino/show horses.

I didn't intend to imply otherwise, Lori. I'm sure there are lots of people who enjoy both show and trail and, therefore, expose their horses to both. I was thinking more of horses who are bred solely for show, who are never given any experiences or training geared to anything but show, and who, for one reason or another, eventually don't "make the grade" as a show horse. If they've never experienced a trail ride or been prepared for a trail ride, it seems harsh (both to the horse and the new owner) to suddenly expect them to be trail horses.

[Pasogirlz]

That wasn't necessarily aimed at you. ;-) As I said, I was just taking the opportunity. It seems to be a misconception that they are no good for trail riding.

Fact is...I'm having Mina hauled home next week so I can use her while PasoSis and family visit. 8-)

[CarolU]

You are quite right Vicki. I just saw a horse like this two weeks ago at the Idaho clinic. Quite the story goes with her.

The woman who bought her saw an ad for Paso Finos in a magazine. She responded to the ad, telling the owners she was looking for a trail horse. The owners, a show barn in South Carolina - and she didn't remember the name - assured her the horse was a trail horse and sent her pictures. She bought the mare for $1800 and spent $2200 getting it shipped to Alaska. You can imagine the SHOCK that little horse went through stepping out of a transport in Alaska, after being trained for Pleasure Class in South Carolina! She was TERRIFIED. She had never seen a large rock, never done a creek crossing, never a snow bank, never seen constant wildlife, never had tall grass tickle her belly..the list of first-time experiences for her was wild. She frequently bolted with her new owner, they ended up in trees, etc.

But, she was gaiting little machine (the third type of cull apparently). She was the star of the clinic and just flew in gait around the arena. It was very apparent to everyone that she had been professionally trained for show. Everyone fell in love with her.

Was it "harsh" for both of them...you judge. Was it fair to call this little horse a "Trail Horse"....No.

[El Indio Elegante]

Not trying to be mean but i'm sorta the type who doesn't look down on the trail horses(I mean hello alot of people want calm horses) but I don't have nearly as much fun riding the trail pasos as much as I do the show pasos. I really never get to do much with my pasos on the trail, pretty much all show. But i mean there are alot of people who think alot like me as far as this.

[Cindy]

OK, I have avoided this topic but it has gotten WAY out of hand. I think it is fairly apprent here, JUST in this thread that it is not the trail horse breeders but rather the show horses that are demeaned EVERY WEEK on this board. What do you people who do not, or do but like to pretend you do not, show think that show horse people do on the 300 days that they are not at shows? Well, I can tell you what they do, they TRAIL RIDE. I am sick and tired of SHOW horses and show horse breeders and show horse trainers being SLAMMED on this forum. I guarantee you that ANY show horse that I have in my barn right now can trail ride with the best of any trail horse out there. Do you people think that all show horse people do is go around in circles? I am honestly dumbfounded that, given free rein to embellish, so many people on this forum promote the idea that a quaility Paso Fino is such a piece of dog manure that it cannot successfully ride the trails. Show people would NEVER demean a trail horse to the extent that you people demean the show horse. Why? Because WE ALL RIDE TRAIL HORSES. Whether we show or not, more hours are spent on the trail than on ANYTHING else. Shame on you people for demeaning your own breed in this way.

[Serendipity]

Cassie of course you want a horse with more vibe your young,What happens a lot of time is an older person (not old)want to plod along a trail and look at the scenery and chat and look some more.Its these people that are sold these ex-show horses as a first time horse and some end up getting hurst or scared then all pasos are bad no matter what and its take 10 times the work to convince them otherwise.

So many farms has breed for fino only and deal with what you get,I don't agree.I'm the in between crowd here I like to trail ride and poke along but at the same time I want the speed and power, to take off and run and race and act foolish.

but have you noticed when you go to shows the are not really close to FL not a lot of fino horses show up or performance why is that?

[Serendipity]

Cindy you are correct but I think it goes back to that one bad apple ruins the bunch,A lot of traines work the show stock on the trails.I'm sure a few don't.

I think what it really comes down are the horses are not being matched to the new owners.thats herhaps where the real problem is

[Pasogirlz]

I think what it really comes down are the horses are not being matched to the new owners.thats herhaps where the real problem is
I will agree with this....BUT it's not just the show/fino ppl who are guilty of selling a horse that did NOT match up with the buyer. :idea:
So there are bad apples in both bunches. ;-) Just neither side wants to recognize it.

[Cindy]

Ditti, Lori. I have gotten WAY more untrained, crazy trail horses than I have ever gotten show horses.

[Brigitte]

And I wanted to address your question about what they do w/horses in other countries. They don't separate Fino, Performance, Pleasure like we do here. (in fact some say we invented Performance and Pleasure, but that's a whole other thread ;-) ). There is a thread that explains the way they do it in Colombia somewhere here. I'll dig it up for you. But basically, if the horse is not show quality, they use them on the farms for working and the traditional uses. They are family horses in some cases like ours. They are just not used for breeding usually.

True, we don't have fino performance or pleasure, what we do have here is a class called Paseo, which the fino horses show in when they have one or other defect or arent good enough for the Classico class. I know that in Colombia they have the Grado A and B shows, don't know what the difference between the two though. But the not having fino or performance class is difficult sometimes because you'll always have the horses who are considered Fino beating the others who are considered Performance. Then again there aren't enough horses for us to split it up. In Colombia the other non showing finos usually get used for trail or cabalgatas or something

[Lois York]

Over the past 20 some years I've ridden many PF horses. But none ever made me feel like "Slick" did. He was a naturally gaited fino stallion. Triumfo de Omega (SP?)I think was his name. He liked to test the first round in the ring, rubbed my leg against every post the lil' monster! But ohhhh what a ride, in parades people would be amazed at him standing in one spot gaiting, kids would say to they're parents "look at that horse dancing in one spot!" He wasn't very big and didn't have the size Mom needed to sell in Canada. So she sent him to the states, I would have loved to have him now to breed to my mares....lol
But things change as has our breed grows. PF's have changed for the better or worse all depends on what person you talk to. I hope that we can ALL learn to get along without putting anyone elses opinion or horses down.
Also one other thing GAIT should not be a learned trait...these horses were bred to do so NOT TRAINED!! And a trainer should NEVER have to do any cruel inhumane things to these horses in order to get GAIT (JMHO)

[CarolU]

OK, I have avoided this topic but it has gotten WAY out of hand. I think it is fairly apprent here, JUST in this thread that it is not the trail horse breeders but rather the show horses that are demeaned EVERY WEEK on this board. What do you people who do not, or do but like to pretend you do not, show think that show horse people do on the 300 days that they are not at shows? Well, I can tell you what they do, they TRAIL RIDE. I am sick and tired of SHOW horses and show horse breeders and show horse trainers being SLAMMED on this forum. I guarantee you that ANY show horse that I have in my barn right now can trail ride with the best of any trail horse out there. Do you people think that all show horse people do is go around in circles? I am honestly dumbfounded that, given free rein to embellish, so many people on this forum promote the idea that a quaility Paso Fino is such a piece of dog manure that it cannot successfully ride the trails. Show people would NEVER demean a trail horse to the extent that you people demean the show horse. Why? Because WE ALL RIDE TRAIL HORSES. Whether we show or not, more hours are spent on the trail than on ANYTHING else. Shame on you people for demeaning your own breed in this way.

I must have missed the threads where anyone demeaned show horses, called them dog manure, or slammed trainers and breeders. Would someone please point those out to me? I think every comment that I've read is done with tact and trying to be fair,showing the value of both types of horses. I also think they are all TRUE...and judging by my PMs, others think so too. All that was said was that they are DIFFERENT. We will never value BOTH until we recognize and value both - openly.

[Cindy]

Judging by my PMs, all of which by the way are titiled "Thankyou", you seem to be missing something.

[CarolU]

At least now, Jenn and Vicki know why Barbara was ducking.

No one in ANY WAY demeaned show horses, their trainers, owners, or breeders. To deny that some horses are bred that don't gait, to deny that some horses are ruined during "training," or to deny that some horses gait to the nines, are trained well, and still aren't good enough for National Championships and are sold off...is putting your head in the sand. It happens. Not every horse bred for showing in PFHA, gaits well, is well trained, makes it to Nationals, wins Championships, and lives a thereafter valued and wonderful life. The vast majority are sold off to make room for the next crop of schooling and show Champions and would-be Champions.

That Cindy, is reality. It is 'show business.'

[Cindy]

And you think the horses that are bred to be "trail" horses are any different? Get YOUR head out of the sand. Do you ever look at the breeding on the horses that show up here for rescue? Most of them do not have a familiar horse until you get three generations away. And if they do, it is only one line in the entire lineage that shows up on paper that is even recognizable. Or they have a recognizable stallion as a father or grand father of the sire and the dam has absolutely NO breeding whatsoever. Bad breeding is bad breeding and bad training is bad training.

And what makes you think that a horse that is bred to show but is not a top show horse is not still a good horse?

[CarolU]

Most of them do not have a familiar horse until you get three generations away. And if they do, it is only one line in the entire lineage that shows up on paper that is even recognizable.

Is this your definition of "bred for trail?"

A pleasure horse is all about two things...disposition and natural gait. It hasn't a lot to do with specific bloodlines, other then the immeidate parents have both, great dispositions and naturally smooth gait. They're not necessarily fast, they're not awesome show horses, they're nice horses. Cindy, what it boils down to is, you just don't 'get it.'

I am sure you ride all your horses on the trails around your house. I know many other trainers who do likewise. You are also a professional trainer who is used to this breed and are comfortable handling its hottest horses. No one doubts that you can do this and it is in no way a 'slam' on your abilities or training. But you are not the average owner. Over 80% of owners do NOT want "hot" horses for their backyard. Weather bred hot or made hot. You can say, "Let them buy Rockies if they want calm." but the truth is they are 80%-plus of PFHA owners, and who knows how many owners outside PFHA.

[CarolU]

And before you say that is slam on show horses...I love show horses! They're beautiful and firey and exciting. They are the shinning crown of our breed....but that doesn't mean everyone wants one. That is my point.

[Cindy]

A pleasure horse is all about two things...disposition and natural gait. It hasn't a lot to do with specific bloodlines, other then the immeidate parents have both, great dispositions and naturally smooth gait. They're not necessarily fast, they're not awesome show horses, they're nice horses. Cindy, what it boils down to is, you just don't 'get it.'


Apparently, you just don't get it as that was my point exactly.

And, for your information, I am not the only one who rides the horses that I train. They are also ridden by all kinds of owners with all different riding abilities. So get off your high horse and open your eyes to the fact that you and Parelli are not the only game in town. There are plenty of happy owners whose trainers train show horses. If there were not, I would have as much time as you do to post on this BB all day long every day.

And, just for the record, NOW Jenn knows what Barb meant.

[Cindy]

And before you say that is slam on show horses...I love show horses! They're beautiful and firey and exciting. They are the shinning crown of our breed....but that doesn't mean everyone wants one. That is my point.


No, Carol, that was most definitely NOT a slam on show horses, that was a slam ON ME.

[CarolU]

No, Carol, that was most definitely NOT a slam on show horses, that was a slam ON ME.

No Cindy, it isn't. It's only personal to you because you choose to take it that way. You are not a big breeder, you are not an abusive trainer, you are not a 'bottom line dollar' owner. None of those comments were directed at you. In fact, only one is directed at you at all. And that is that you are very familiar with this breed, very comfortable riding 'hot' performance horses, etc. What you define as "pleasure" and what the average owner defines it as, are two very different things. Even your clientle, and those of other professional PPFHA trainers EXPECT a "hot" show horse..."hot" as defined by the average pleasure/trail owner.

Sometimes when one is too close to something they can't stand back and look at the whole thing. There are two worlds in PFHA. There are two sets of values. There IS room for both in this breed and association. But we'll never get there if we don't accept it.

[Cindy]

Carol, you have no idea how I define ANY kind of horse or who my clients even are. Do you really think that I am such a moron that I do not know the things that you do after being in this breed for over 30 years? I have clients who could not ride a what you term "hot" horse if they wanted to. There are many show horses that can be ridden by anyone, children, beginners, those who have never before ridden a horse. The fact that you do not know that just shows your ignorance of the subject on which you seem to think you are the expert and the rest of us measly show people just do not "get".

[Fuego]

Perhaps the show vs pleasure conflict isn't actually about show people and trail/pleasure people. Maybe this conflict is more a symptom of an unerlying problem.

Perhaps it's not that non PFHA show people dislike pasos shows, show horses, or show people, as much as they resent the breed organization catering to a small percent of Pasos/owners that do show while all but ignore the other 80% of the members/breed. Which basically sends a message that only Resorte 4 inbred Pasos bred for the show ring has any real value or worthy of their time or attention. ( sorry, misplaced resentment coming thru)

The modern show type horses are an important and valuable part of this breed. But this breed is NOT LIMITED to current PFHA type show horses. It's a shame so much of this breed is being ignored.

Fino type show horses will likely always bring the highest prices in this breed, but that doesn't mean the entire breed and breed organization needs to cater solely to the few that can afford top fino type show horses.

It's resentment from having the majority of our breed marginalized and ignored, simply because they AREN'T show horses. But it really has little to do with the actual shows world. Just long festering misplaced resentment

Of course, this is just one perspective ....... mine

[qltrlori]

I have heard some discussion about the importance of attracting new people to the Paso Fino breed. Maybe this whole thread points to one reason why that may be so difficult - when new people ask questions it starts a fire storm and tempers flare, feelings are hurt.

I was just hoping to get some clear information. :cry:

Lori

[JennLM]

Maybe this whole thread points to one reason why that may be so difficult - when new people ask questions it starts a fire storm and tempers flare, feelings are hurt.
Lori

Methinks you have a point. If as newbies, we don't ask questions and learn, how are we going to contribute positively towards the breed?

[Pasogirlz]

Lori, believe it or not, it's threads like this one that teaches you guys. I recall a thread on another forum that got locked by admin it was so firey, but for me, it was a moment of epiphany as to why ppl feel the way they do. I finally saw both sides expressed passionately. I "got it". So don't feel like this was useless. Something good will come of it.
;-)

[Cindy]

qltrlori wrote:
Maybe this whole thread points to one reason why that may be so difficult - when new people ask questions it starts a fire storm and tempers flare, feelings are hurt.
Lori


Methinks you have a point. If as newbies, we don't ask questions and learn, how are we going to contribute positively towards the breed?


You both have good points. And there is nothing wrong with asking the questions. There is something wrong, however, when the answers that you get to the questions that you ask give you the wrong impression about show horses and show people. Your point is why I stayed out of this most of the day. You see, it is alright to slam the show horses but it is not alright to defend them. And that is why this topic always blows up. But I cannot in good consience sit here and not respond to the misinformation that was bandied about today and I knew that Carol would respond the way she did and I am just not the type of person to back down to her. So there you go. But you should understand that we do not take these discussions terribly personally and we all go on to discuss another day. No harm, no foul.

And, Fuego, I think you may have hit one particular nail in the head. But there is another side to that issue as well. Perhaps for another day.

[Pasogirlz]

There is something wrong, however, when the answers that you get to the questions that you ask give you the wrong impression about show horses and show people

I agree again 100%

It's not really even in this thread, but an overall attitude in general. I feel it anyway.

And yes, Fuego has a good point. ;-)

[Heidi]

Perhaps the show vs pleasure conflict isn't actually about show people and trail/pleasure people. Maybe this conflict is more a symptom of an underlying problem.

...[people] resent the breed organization catering to a small percent of Pasos/owners that do show while all but ignore the other 80% of the members/breed.
It's a shame so much of this breed is being ignored.

Of course, this is just one perspective ....... mine
I share your perspective and it is the major reason I did not renew my [first year free] membership with PFHA after I purchased and transferred Q into my name.
PFHA does not offer me anything useful for my money, so why spend it?

Another side of the coin...AQHA has many programs for the many different types of QHs and until PFs have gained enough of a following, I don't see PFHA making any changes to cater to the trail and pleasure riding crowd.
Here is a question...what does AQHA offer to their pleasure and trail riding members? The only thing I can think of is a mileage program with patches to sew on a garment.(?)
Most breed organizations are about registering and showing...not pleasure riding.
Heidi

[echo]

I trail ride and show. I trail ride show horses. I've shown trail horses. I'm trail riding Saturday (on a horse that has been sucessfully shown) and competing at the Asheville show next week. Good trainers (of any breed) expose horses to many different things, including obstacles, water, trees, etc during their training, whether they have a show career or not. The basics should be (and are with several trainers I know), the same. It's alot easier to have your horses trained by this type of person than by one who never takes horses outside of a ring. If you're not sure about a horse you are interested in, then make a point to find out or test ride the horse first. There is nothing wrong with focusing training, after the basics are set, for the task the particular horse will primarily be doing. If the foundation is there, you can always go back and expand on what the horse already knows.

It would be hard to train a horse to be prepared for Alaska when they are in SC. You would have to retrain me if I went to Alaska. Just where would you find a snowdrift? If you want a "bargain horse", be willing to pay in training, or you just might get lucky, you won't know until you ride the horse. That's not to say that the "bargain horse" might be the best money you've ever spent, and ends up being a fantastic trail companion. I'm not defending someone selling a horse as a "trail horse" because it wasn't sucessful showing. I will defend, however, that a horse who has primarily been shown in the past can be taught to be a trail companion.

It is nearly impossible to match horse and rider long distance. How can you teach someone, over the phone, what cues the horse knows? It can be the most well trained horse on your farm, but if the rider is untrained, what does it matter? It is one thing to say a horse has been trail ridden and another to say they are an experienced trail horse. What about the riders? All the Pasos I've ridden are super-responsive, and very aware of their surroundings, even the best trained gentle ones. I've seen horses react very differently to different riders on the trail. In my opinion, a person needs to learn how to ride their horse in a controlled environment, then branch out into trail riding once they have some experience and a bond with their new horse. It's alot easier to say that your new horse is "untrained" than to admit that the issue is riding in the saddle, not under it. Would you get in a new car and speed off down a busy road without at least glancing at the controls and familiarizing yourself with it's basic functions? Why would you trail ride a horse without knowing it's cues? Why do I hear so many people blaming the horses?
The Paso Fino, for the most part, is an adaptable and intelligent breed of horse. Let's not sell our breed short. There are some excellent trail horses bred specifically for traits and extensively trained to enhance these qualities. There are some excellent show horses bred specifically for traits show folks enjoy. There are many horses that can do it all. There are, however, some "fire-breathing dragons" that are difficult to handle, whether in the show ring or on a trail. Some "dragons" are trail ridden, others are not. To each his own. Those horses are a thrill for those that love them, and terrifying for those who don't.

As a "newbie", I encourage you not to polarize your views one way or the other. Keep an open mind about the abilities of the horses, and the importance of foundation training for both horse AND rider. Watch, listen, and learn, keeping what you have found to work for you, and disregarding the rest. Everybody's got opinions, you'll have to wade through them and test them for yourself.

I like to do it all. If I were looking for a polo pony, however, I would not go to the racetrack to buy one for a bargain, though the retired racehorse might make a great poly pony when trained to do so. You can spend the money on buying a horse trained to suit your needs, or you can spend the money training the bargain horse to suit your needs, but if you have horses, you know the money will be spent whichever way you decide. I have purchased bargain horses, but with eyes wide open. These horses had traits, though not polished yet, that I wanted. I haven't regretted either one of those purchases.

Now, will someone please pass the popcorn? :D

[cowboy ed]

ok, for what its worth, girls......jenn, you little troublemaker!!!! see what you started!! :lol:

cindy, just an unsolicited, unbiased view here, but you read way too much into others comments and got defensive for no reason. c'mon now, ease up. you have some good things to say, but a pretty darned abrasive way of saying them sometimes. ;-)

carol, sometimes its better to just smile and walk away, rather that "tit for tat".
;-)

this kind of reminds me of a story, heck everything reminds me of a story, so ya'll bear with me. a friend of mine who owns a farm had cousins visiting from up north. it was early summer and the georgia peaches(talkin bout the fruit here) were in season. so, they bought a basket of peaches and were standing around the back porch eating peaches. as one of the cousins was chomping down on the peach, juice dripping off his elbow, he remarked, "wow, this has to be the best thing i have ever put in my mouth!" one of the hired hands, standing nearby, replied, "YOU MUST NOT NEVER HAD NO WATERMELON!"

see, it can all be good here, just preferences, thats all.

there are extremes in any example. there are medians in any example. hey, we are supposed to all be in this boat together. you cant fix a leaky boat from the outside, so lets just all get together and bail this thing out, then patch the holes from the inside. not make it an US vs THEM!

shoot, i thought i had to have a fino horse until i got a trote y galope!

cowboy ed (ya'll come back now, y'hear?)

[motorgypsy]

Round 1 is over! To your corners ladies.

While you two are slugging it out - yes it is entertaining - the REAL BAD GUY in the breed is out there abusing horses, training gait and doing the nasty things that happen in all breeds where big money goes with big show wins. You two both love the paso fino fino horse and our expereience with both of you has been nothing but positive. So let's all go after the bad guy how about it!

Here is what we've experienced:

Great show horses can and frequently ARE great trail horses and this includes the fino horse. We have six show quality, shown and won paso finos who are fantastic on the trail. For those of you who don't know us we're senior citizens who do everything from parades to hunter pace to LD endurance to allbreed shows with our paso finos as well as ordinary trail rides.

Great trail horses can be great show horses but typically don't fit the main show classes and don't win. This seriously annoys the owners of these great and well gaited paso finos and is one reason show people get slammed and they do get slammed quite often. Show people are interested in a horse that will do well in the main show classes and therefore tend to look down on horses who won't win. The trail paso fino breeder knows very well that their paso finos are as good if not better than the show paso finos and strongly resent the attitude. So we have the horse loved by the general equine public not truly represented in the show ring. Yes there is country pleasure but it is unpointed and doesn't allow pros to ride in it.

We're dealing with the clash of at least three cultures with four or five more thrown in. There is a great deal of emotion connected with winning in the show ring as the money and prestige of winning in some of these cultures is huge! You have to consider the animosity generated when the US with it's economic power is suddenly trying to tell these originators of the breed what to breed for and how to breed. On the other hand many who do not have roots in the originating countries resent the power they have in the show ring in the US and feel that in the US, the ordinary US paso fino owners should have greater representation in show and in PFHA.

We're a relatively new breed in the US so we're struggling with our identity. We happily give our horses names in Spanish but resent the influence of the originating countries on the criteria that is used to determine the winning show paso fino.

What is the solution? Well we could say tolerance but we all know the fight will continue and we can only hope that as the breed expands, so will the country pleasure type class expand to include more of our wonderful trail paso finos.

[macadoo]

I've enjoyed reading this post but I must tell you my story...I realize I don't have Nationals quality pasos...but I do show...just got back from Lexington, Va...where our horses did pretty good..especially considering the competition that was there....I both show and trail ride my horses and enjoy every minute of it....I certainly don't look down on either type of paso...they are all wonderful...I do not have the riding ability to ride a very hot horse...and wouldn't want to all the time...It's great fun when I get to ride a very disciplined hot horse at a clinic or demo...but not for all the time..Some of this might have to do with my coming birthday...(70) yes, that is what it is...and I'm still riding and enjoying every minute of it.... :D

I feel like Cindy when I read this.. ALL my horses except two can trail ride - they might be spooky the first few times because it is something NEW to them while others aren't afraid of it and MIGHT be better than the trail horse you breed.

NOT all stallions especially FINO STALLIONS are that abused fire breathing dragon with the surgically done tail that is imprinted in the newbies mind. There are MANY stallions that can pass as a A1A trail horse. And I Find no reason why some have to be prejudice with these horses because if you go ALL they way to the end of the pedigree you would see that some of your 'trail-only' bred horses come from the same bloodlines as these show monsters like Gaucho and Resorte I. ** Should mention that not all fino horses give you a difficult time to ride - might give you the impression that all they want to do is knock you off but the only way to know is by trying it.

And what happens to these show horses that don't make the cut at the shows? I don't see many of these at a rescue building... they arent sold to the meat market.. they are sold or sometimes kept as the breeders personal choice to go trail riding on. It really hurts when someone talks about how much we dont really care about the horses we breed. Visit ALL the farms that breed for show - MOST of the time half of the stock of horses(sometimes more than that) they have were not top of the line horses like these famous stallions we always hear about like Capuchino and Amadeus. Do we do away with them NO. They will end up in the hands of someone who values this horse or simply stay on the fields they were raised on.

A perfect example of a show horse gone trail is one of the my most important mare being out of Terremoto de Manizales which was later gelded by some cruel people. BEFORE she got to the USA her and her full brother Terremoto Dos were on a roll taking championships - till she got here she became a rich mans trail horse and favorite broodmare. Were today you can get on her and she wont buck you off - Lori was the 1st one to get on her in 3 years and I dont think she caused much trouble. AND WITH OUT LUNGING HER.

So I don't think its right to say most show horses that do not get the ribbons are culls because sometimes they can get out of the show ring and onto the trails and in most cases do BETTER than your trail bred horse.

Before you go on and talk about the show breeders like most of you do, I believe you should visit ALL these farms and take a look for yourself. Us breeders are very passionate about what we do and since the Paso Fino business is not like all breeds where you get very big bills for a exceptional horse we actually care about the horse. and on top of that we will most likely LOVE to hear the where abouts of that colt or filly that we bred.

--- edited to add to 2nd paragraph

[motorgypsy]

For those of you who are teachers or former teachers - you are all familiar with that one kid who can make a whole class a miserable experience for teacher and students. When we see sore horses at a show or horses who are being worked on concrete or a horse bucking in the arena we remember it. We don't remember the hundreds of horses who are there at that show who aren't lame, aren't being worked on concrete, are cared for with love and who enjoy the show experience. So while we need to eliminate the abuses, we also need to praise those who love and care for their show horses like they love and care for their family.

Nito - a wonderful post -but those horses who are raised and trained specifically for trail are indeed a national treasure. Most show horses take a while to become as good a trail horse as these are from the beginning. Ours took from one to two years. We desparately need a venue to show them off in the show ring and we need the respect of the show people for these horses and their breeders and trainers because they are what the general public wants to ride. They will not buy a horse that won't stand for mounting and won't flat walk when asked and that is so responsive that a normal turn cue will spin you off. Yes there are show trainers who train their horses to do this but too many don't. We know because we must have ridden 100 paso finos before we bought ours. This is especially true in FL.

[CarolU]

Thank you Nancy...

Nito, I'm sorry if you interpreted the word "all" in any of my posts about show horses, breeders selling culls, etc. I attend the National sale, see what is sold there, have been offered many accomplished show horses for sale at bargain basement prices, and have delt with retraining horses who have been pushed too hard. Been there, done that. I didn't make this stuff up.

As Nancy says it is a percentage that these things happen with and too.

I also don't want anyone to think that I was implying that the very hot horses are fino horses. Actually, I have ridden many show horses (so I have "tried it") and found the hottest horses to be Performance horses, not fino horses. And anymore, many horses shown in Pleasure Division are as hot as Performance horses.

I disagree that trail people want a place in the show arena. I find most of them could care less about it, and those that do care, like and appreciate a nice Fino class. I would say that the resentment, if you want to call it that, comes with the Pleasure Division, which no longer showcases pleasure horses. "Show Pleasure" more accurately portrays what is in the arena. And yes, for people who breed and train real pleasure horses for sale to new, older and trail riders, there is some resentment that pleasure has been hijacked.

Perhaps we all need to take a deep breath and look at how recreational riders define a "trail horse." Yes any horse can be ridden on trails...but that doesn't make them a trail horse anymore then riding a horse in an arena makes it show horse.

1. Disposition is tractable, willing, but not necessarily eager.
2. Brio is mild to medium. Medium for more advanced riders
3. A flat walk on a loose rein is the most important gait.
4. A bomb-proof or near-bomb proof horse.
5. A calm horse that negotiates whatever is in the trail carefully, with its head down looking at it, with trust in its rider.
6. A horse you can put your slicker on/off, run your camera, get in your packs, open and close velcro, snaps and zippers on, and wiggle on while flat walking or standing still.
7. A horse that stands for mounting and dismounting quietly, and near a mounting block for older and shorter people.
8. A horse that will carry packs, loose jackets, water bottles, etc.
9. Gait is natural, smooth, and does not require undue collection or training.

Yes, I am sure there are national calliber show horses that can do all this. But very few and very few trainers train them to.

Have you ever seen a horse gait up and down a moutain, including sheer rock faces? I have. It's not safe. These horses are riden on trails - but they certainly are not trail horses.

[Cindy]

1. Disposition is tractable, willing, but not necessarily eager.
2. Brio is mild to medium. Medium for more advanced riders
3. A flat walk on a loose rein is the most important gait.
4. A bomb-proof or near-bomb proof horse.
5. A calm horse that negotiates whatever is in the trail carefully, with its head down looking at it, with trust in its rider.
6. A horse you can put your slicker on/off, run your camera, get in your packs, open and close velcro, snaps and zippers on, and wiggle on while flat walking or standing still.
7. A horse that stands for mounting and dismounting quietly, and near a mounting block for older and shorter people.
8. A horse that will carry packs, loose jackets, water bottles, etc.
9. Gait is natural, smooth, and does not require undue collection or training.

Yes, I am sure there are national calliber show horses that can do all this. But very few and very few trainers train them to.


I am sorry, Carol, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I have a barn full of show horses right now as it is the middle of show season and I have exactly ONE horse in my barn that does not qualify for this list. And three of them are only three and two of them are four years old. I don't think that you understand what it takes to make a good show horse. While the horse horses that you have been accostomed to may be hyper, poorly trained wrecks, that is not the norm for a show horse and those horses were most likely NOT TOP show horses. As you have said, just because they are in the show rind, does not make them show horses.

[Pasogirlz]

1. Disposition is tractable, willing, but not necessarily eager.
2. Brio is mild to medium. Medium for more advanced riders
3. A flat walk on a loose rein is the most important gait.
4. A bomb-proof or near-bomb proof horse.
5. A calm horse that negotiates whatever is in the trail carefully, with its head down looking at it, with trust in its rider.
6. A horse you can put your slicker on/off, run your camera, get in your packs, open and close velcro, snaps and zippers on, and wiggle on while flat walking or standing still.
7. A horse that stands for mounting and dismounting quietly, and near a mounting block for older and shorter people.
8. A horse that will carry packs, loose jackets, water bottles, etc.
9. Gait is natural, smooth, and does not require undue collection or training.

Every single show horse La Fortuna brought to the farm qualified for this list. And they were ridden by Orlandos kids and friends....not the trainers. There was ONE trainer there riding, but mainly it was family and friends on these horses. And these are not horses that SEE trails in Miami. But they all accepted the sights, sounds, and tests we encountered while riding the ranch. Wildlife popping out and all.

[pasolucy]

Cindy,
I do not understand why you feel you must take everything that Carol says and find an insult in it that is directed at you or your horses, or why you think that she is just not smart enough to understand what you are saying.
I do understand what she is saying, I think I understand what you are saying. I also think that you truly do not understand the point she is trying to get across. I do trail ride, there are a couple of "show horses" that I ride with. Yes they can go on the trail, they are well trained, they are not crazy or dangerous. But, they are not what we out here in the west call a "trail horse". I could very easily ride these horses, but I do not wish to. I can admire them and say they are pretty, but that is as far as it goes. They expend too much energy on a simple job. If I was to ride one of those horses all day in the mountains around here I would just feel sorry for it. I just came back from a Paso Fino clinic in Idaho. They had some sale horses there, most were hotter than my 4 year old gelding. My horse was not for sale, at this time he is strung out and needs more muscle development, but he is very mellow, quiet, sensible and just looks calm. They had a couple of hotter horses for sale there, do not know if they sold or not but I had two people trying to talk me into selling my gelding because he is the type they are looking for. 14.2, big boned, and very laid back, not a hot bone in his body. I do not believe that anybody is saying that show horses are bad, just that there is a difference and you keep trying to convince everybody that there is not a difference. I can appreciate the show horses, the Fino horses take my breath away, but I do not want to own one.
As for slamming the show horse breeders, it seems to me that you were the one slamming the trail horse breeders, yes I do breed trail horses and you would not know most of the horses in my pedigrees, but I do know them and know that when that baby hits the ground it is most likely just the kind of horse that I am trying to breed for just the same way that other breeders do when breeding for a horse that will compete in the show ring.

[Fuego]

Hopefully not adding fuel to the fire, but just like some people "see" show horses being slighted, labling any horse that doesn't participate in PFHA shows as "trail/pleasure horses" isn't actually correct ( or fair) either( possibly even very insulting to some).

In any breed, you will have horses of that breed that lack qualities to make them competeive in any discipline, other then being good dependable trail mounts , which has it's own value to the trail rider.

But many people do successfully compete in other disciplines outside the PFHA show ring. These horses may also be used for basic trail riding ( just as many PFHA show horses are), but they are also a lot more then JUST trail horses. ( again resentment about this organization marginalizing all horses that aren't PFHA show horses)

The motorgypsies are a great example ( just one). They have pasos that have competed successfully in endurance, open shows, speed events etc....( as well as PFHA shows) it's not fair or accurate to lable these horses as merely "trail horses".
They are all around athletic, competetive quality horses, but in this breed gets one designator, trail horse ( simply because they aren't competing in the PFHA show ring).

It seems to be an all or nothing mentallity within this breed. A PFHA show horse, or a trail horse. There's a whole lot more in between a PFHA show horse and a trail horse.
Other breeds recognize this about their horses, why can't this breed? And most of the popular breeds in the U.S. acknowledge and promote multiple disciplines for their horses through their breed organizations and shows. But not this breed. It's fino type fast action and all the other other horses that don't make the cut ( trail horses/ aka breed culls).

Even the Morgan breed ( not a large breed in this country,by numbers) offers and promotes driving, English/ Western Pleasure, fancy English Park, Ranch, etc classes at their shows. ( note: a variety of disciplines that require a varitety of types to be top show horses in each discipline).

'Discipline rivalry' (some good natured rivalry/ some not) exisits in all breeds ( speed events vs pleasure vs reining vs dressage vs cowwork vs etc...) and will always exsist.

But in Pasos it seems the breed organization only recognizes 1 specific type of Paso Fino worthy to be noted and celebrated( promoted). That all or nothing mentality fosters alot of exclusion and marginalization of top quality Paso Finos (and resentment) that can and do excell in disciplines other then the singular type of class PFHA offers.
So until the breed organization can broaden their miopic veiw of what a quality paso fino is and what they are capable of, a very unhealthy atmosphere for the breed will prevail ( PFHA show ring vs the rest of the breed).

I honestly doubt that many , if any, want to see the current Paso Fino show world dismantled or even diminished. They just don't want the breed shows and organization exsisting exclusively for a small minority of the breed and owners.

Just to be clear, I'm not bashing the Paso Fino shows, horses or people. I'm bashing the organization that caters exclusively TO the current paso show world and excludes all others ( the majority of horses and owners within the breed), which is intrumental in creating and maintaining the animosity of show vs all others and crippling this breed from growth and expansion into many other venues and markets here in the U.S.

A well trained horse is a well trained horse, be it used for PFHA shows, trails, or any other discipline. No single group has a monopoly on well trained horses or poorly trained horses. But just because a paso isn't a PFHA show horse, doesn't mean it's just a trail horse, either.

Having said all that, I'm now off to enjoy my worthless scrub trail horse :D

[motorgypsy]

You guys are both right you know. And for the readers' information - they know it.

As we mentioned - we rode at least 100 paso finos during our quest for our very own and most of the ones we rode would not be safe on the trail. This was in Florida now. There are far too many out there that don't meet the needs of the general horse public. I don't know why but they don't. Why did we get so many bad ones? We were in the "el cheapo" range. Not the rock bottom but the next tier up. All the horses had been trained but the better behaved ones were out of our price range. But it did show how many poorly behaved paso finos were for sale then and I suspect now.

Cindy - you see the best of the best. The best trainers get their choice of the best horses and the best trainers aren't going to fool with a horse that is not tractable unless the owner wants the horse to be made as safe as possible before selling it and the trainer is willing to take on a difficult horse. If you could disguise yourself ( ;-) ;-) ;-) ) and just go out paso fino shopping in Florida you would see what Carol and we are talking about. There are many many paso finos for sale who are not trail safe but advertised as trail horses. And people are breeding lines they shouldn't be breeding just because they hope for that blue ribbon. Besides that - you "speak equus". Horses who are terrible for other people are fine for you. So you really don't have a realistic view of what's out there in the boonies and just how bad they are for the average rider - well maybe you've seen some of them but there are a lot!

Carol - shows are fun and we don't agree that the average paso fino owner isn't interested in showing. If they have a pretty, well behaved paso fino, most enjoy going to the local allbreed shows just for fun. They may say they don't like shows but get them to just one and they discover it's not about winning, it's about meeting lots of other people who love horses and about publicizing our great breed. It's a social and learning experience. They don't however like to be made to feel that their paso fino is inferior just because it's not as hot which is why an expanded country pleasure class would pull in more of the general equine public to paso fino shows. A lot of people in our breed have shown in other breeds and enjoyed the experience. Let's put classes in our PFHA shows for the more laid back paso fino so the general public can see that they are not uncommon.

Oh - a month or so ago I put Lula, our "Cindy trained" show mare, in the trail class at a fun show at the Minter's farm in NC. We had never done anything like this with her. She has been trail ridden and shown in allbreed shows and in the largo race but never asked to do any of the tasks she had to do totally "cold" that day. She had stand while I picked up a rain slicker while mounted and put it on and off, she had to let me open and close a gait and go through it, she had to drag a large plastic bag in the end of a rope, go around cones and several other things. She was fantastic. Any errors made were my fault for give her incorrect cues, not her fault. And I seriously doubt Cindy showed her in trail. If I recall she was shown in pleasure and did very well. There are many more show horses like her - but too many that aren't.

She and several others we have and that you guys have also are very close to the our ideal of the paso fino horse. You take them to an endurance ride on Sat and throw them n the show ring on Sunday and do a speed show with them that evening and the next weekend you do a parade. They can do it all. If ours, who have really pretty bad old decrepit riders, can do all these things well, then so can the rest of them with better riders and good trainers who know what the general public likes.

And yes - some of the lesser known and frequently latin trainers do not train for what our public wants - but if their horses don't sell and they are good trainers - they will learn to train what will sell IF we make sure they know what it is. The young Puerto Rican born trainer we watched daily for a year did. I got on a four year old show trained stallion (he trained) on a trail ride on the suburban streets when I was not as good a rider as I am now and he was perfect.

[CarolU]

Carol - shows are fun and we don't agree that the average paso fino owner isn't interested in showing. If they have a pretty, well behaved paso fino, most enjoy going to the local allbreed shows just for fun. They may say they don't like shows but get them to just one and they discover it's not about winning, it's about meeting lots of other people who love horses and about publicizing our great breed. It's a social and learning experience. They don't however like to be made to feel that their paso fino is inferior just because it's not as hot which is why an expanded country pleasure class would pull in more of the general equine public to paso fino shows. A lot of people in our breed have shown in other breeds and enjoyed the experience. Let's put classes in our PFHA shows for the more laid back paso fino so the general public can see that they are not uncommon.


I took this observation from recreational riders here and throughout the west, and in the East where I rode quite a bit when I was back there. The largest percentage of Paso Fino owners don't belong to PFHA, don't show, and don't want to. They don't take PFHW and couldn't tell you who/what was winning. Some might call it apathy, but the truth is it has little to do with them and their horses. They show up for trail rides and sometimes parades, and very rarely a fun show or clinic. Believe me, most don't even watch the PF shows on RFD TV. They just have no interest at all in showing.

What you don't realize Nancy, is that you guys aren't "average." ;-) You're very active and really get the most out of your horses. I find very few owners use and enjoy their horses like you two do.

[motorgypsy]

Heaven help the world if we're average!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

But we do live here and talk to horse people constantly and I think you'd be surprised to know that if the right classes are avaliable cheaply and conveniently just how many people show up. We have three venues for allbreed shows within 45 minutes of us and they do extremely well. These are our next paso fino owners. And they are interested in them - most just can't afford a good one yet. And I don't mean "show good" I mean a good safe smooth ride. The same people who pay to have padding put on their wooden chruch pews will also pay a bit more for a "padded ride"!! And of this group you will have many who will attend PFHA shows and some who will show in them.

[Fuego]

Carol, you may have a point about the non PFHA show owners and their interests about not wanting to or interested in showing. However....

I don't neccessarrily think the motorgypsies are an exception( even though they are exceptional :D ). I think a lot of Pasos owners would participate in shows/events IF they had classes offered in an area that they'd be interested in ( instead of just one type of classes for one type horse at overpriced shows).

But as it is now, if you want to compete with your paso in anything other then PFHA shows, a person often has to deal with indifference or ignorance of the breed at other venues, which also discourages poeple from participating. It's not deemed worth all the 'extra' effort to have an enjoyable day with your paso.

Some people don't mind dealing with the ignorance and indifference at some venues and do what ever they want to do, regardless of everything else going on around them. ( perhaps THAT's what makes the motorgypsies an exception, they don't allow other people's preceptions to limit what they do with there horses)

But I'm willing to bet that many ( certainly not ALL) Paso owners would participate in venues that offered a variety of classes ( for a variety of horses) if they had an affordable, easy and welcoming atmosphere to enjoy with their pasos. But at this point, those venues are few and far between and often require alot more effort then simply showing up at a show for the day and having fun with your paso.

I don't consider myself a 'serious competitor'. But I do like competing at events with my horse. For me the primamry goal is to have fun with my horse and enjoy the other competitors and their horses. Sure winning is great, but not my focus, having FUN with my horse is my goal. Perhaps I'm also an exception, but I doubt it.

[Pasogirlz]

From what I can tell, most of the animosity comes from the Association issues rather than a real dislike for ppl who show and their horses. But honestly, the overall attitude by many folks here on this forum gives an impression. The same way that the overall attitude on the other forum gives the impression that trail/pleasure/versatility (that is for you Fuego ;-) ) horses are not as good as show horses. It's not one person, it's a group mentality. It leaks out and infects the newbies who are looking for our guidance. That's what I don't like.

Also, I understand some of you complaining about PFHA have been in the breed much longer than I have, and probably have good reason to feel the way you do. I cannot argue w/you about your issues, they are real and they are worth a whole new thread. But don't hold me accountable for what those who came before me have done. We just have to all work together for the future of the breed or we will continue to go around in circles.

I ditto and agree w/everything Echo said. Couldn't have said it better myself, and had forgotten to make some of the same points in my post...so I'm glad they got brought up. ;-)

[CarolU]

:shock: Mitch, is this a thinly vailed KICK in my pants to get SportHorse going?? :shock:

I just got done with this issue of the GW Newsletter and the Trail and Pleasure issues of PFHW are either gone to press or near deadline. Sooooo, I promise to get the Rulebook finished and the Articles of Incorporation done. It really is a PAIN that you can't just DO something, you have so much prepartion to do to first. :(

Well, enough of this...horses are done with breakfast, time to ride.

Laters!

[motorgypsy]

Lori and Greg West (echo) are indeed ambassadors for the breed. They show, trail ride, breed and it's always done with that famous smile on Lori's face!!!

[Serendipity]

One thing I get bugged by is when I read my PFHW I see all kinds of advertiment for Fino and Performance Stallions once in a while a Show Pleasure Stallion but thats slim.I say put the money where the mouth is advertise these "Trail" Stallions the Stallion issue is I believe at a redused rate.Its like I said before its like your hiding something no one know who they are because there is no way to know who they are.

And those people that want to show some but don't like the Pleasure class you don't help by complaining about it do something,You have Country Pleasure ,western pleasure,trail,versitlity,and driving. and if you go to any show thses classes are not well attended why? When they are the classes you want a calmer quieter paso class not much brio.

You would thing that if this is what you want the calmer classes for the everyday horse these classes would be full to the point that they had to be split to allow for the shear numbers,like Pleasure,Performance and Fino.Those that want these things sell yourselves short by not partisapation.

True not everyone wants to show fine they don't have to but when a newbie goes to show to see horses it'd be nice to see these classes with better attendance because these are the horse the newbie wants to start with then they will move up the line from there.

[Pasogirlz]

One thing I get bugged by is when I read my PFHW I see all kinds of advertiment for Fino and Performance Stallions once in a while a Show Pleasure Stallion but thats slim.I say put the money where the mouth is advertise these "Trail" Stallions the Stallion issue is I believe at a redused rate.Its like I said before its like your hiding something no one know who they are because there is no way to know who they are.

And those people that want to show some but don't like the Pleasure class you don't help by complaining about it do something,You have Country Pleasure ,western pleasure,trail,versitlity,and driving. and if you go to any show thses classes are not well attended why? When they are the classes you want a calmer quieter paso class not much brio.

You would thing that if this is what you want the calmer classes for the everyday horse these classes would be full to the point that they had to be split to allow for the shear numbers,like Pleasure,Performance and Fino.Those that want these things sell yourselves short by not partisapation.

True not everyone wants to show fine they don't have to but when a newbie goes to show to see horses it'd be nice to see these classes with better attendance because these are the horse the newbie wants to start with then they will move up the line from there.

:notworthy

[JennLM]

As a Newbie, it was the the personality of a non-papered purebred Paso (who was ready to be shot because she did not have the perfect showable gait from her when she was rescued) and it did not matter to me that she was not showable, had no papers and was so many months pregnant, she had that shine that Pasos have. That sweet loving "it" I see in my Trinket.

I tried finding forums and found 2, 1 was mostly in Spanish and I am Spanish challenged so it didn't do me all good andi t was almot all about Show Pasos. The other did not have much traffic, but this one has much to offer. While on the first Forum I saw some of the videos. I had NO clue what Pasos were. I just knew we had fallen in love with the breed. I was jaw droppingly awed at those Show videos. OMG how friggen cool and beautiful was that I kept aksing myself over and over as my poor husband had to listen to those hoofbeats over and over, every video I could find.

I got WOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO excited a show was coming to Vegas and I could see these horses and meet people and learn even more.

Would I ever want to show, probably only local open gaited classes. I'd rather do a bit of ringwork then head out on the trails.

Would I ever want a "Show Horse" type? From what I have seen, told and realistically handle? Probably never. "I" could not make that kind of show horse happy. To just plod along all day?

It would be like taking a Field Golden or Field Lab and asking it to chill out every day at my feet, forget working with what comes naturally bred into him. Most dogs have 2 types, working (high energy, high prey drive)and conformation (laid back calm). Those that breed them breed for those characteristics. Matching homes is very important for the dog to thrive and do what it was meant to do. While naturally you could probably get your conformational dog to do a bit of field work, it might take a bit more effort but the dog would lack certain quaities. The conformational type dogs are heavier, bigger boned, while the field dogs are thinner, sleeker, faster. I use these as examples because this is how as a newbie I see the Pasos.

One set of lines are more trail oriented, one set more the show type. People breed those lines to get what they want. Not to say you can't cross over. That is the ultimate.

(back to the dogs briefly) There are very dogs that carry both working and conformational titles, and most I know would love to have more dogs that were that versitile within the breed. But it's not reality when the genes have been so altered because of breeding for 1 type instead of trying for the best of both worlds. Is it best to have the best of both worlds? I dunno honestly.

Would a show horse be happy to plod along day after day out on trails? Personally I don't. Would a trail horse be happy showing time and time again instead of being out there on the open trails? Personally I don't. Sure they could do it and would because they are such peaople pleasing horses, but would they enjoy it as much?

Being new, this is just what I Have gathered.

I respect the show horses showing and the trail horses on trails. I think neither is any better, just a different part of what the breed can do.

(don't kill the newbie don't kill the newbie LOL)

Sorry if I created such a hot topic but I do agree threads like this do teach.

[Lois York]

i would like to say that IT IS expensive for me to show at PFHA show and everyone else too. For me this year vet alone fro one to cross the boarder is $150. boarder xing fees, then the gas to travel 6 hrs...food, motel. Hell I haven't even paid the stalls, entries, drug fee, memebership....and the list goes on.
Up here I have been asked for the 3yr to do a demonstration at a local fair...which the pay expenses, admittance fees, and last year ice cream for the kids!
I do have two fairs close that have classes, my mother worked VERY hard to get I might add, that I show in. I do not complain about placement of my horse at these shows...as I know as in any other show judge of the day rules. I do very well but find bigger means better NO matter what up here.

[Cindy]

Pasolucy, for one thing, I have never, not once slammed trail horses. And while you have only heard me talk about the show horses that I train in this thread, I also train plenty of trail horses that never have and never will see the inside of a show arena. So why on earth would I cut off my nose to spite my face and put them down? I do not have a problem with you or Carol or anyone for that matter saying that trail horses are great horses. They are. The problem that I have is when blanket statements are made about show horses that are untrue. Now, I have no idea who the show horses that you ride with are, but I have plenty of show horses that when being ridden on the trail are very relaxed and calm and you would not know that they were even show horses. They do come down. Some are more "hot" (I really hate that word) than others and some people like that but other people like for them to be more laid back and show horses come that way as well. And I only take the things that Carol says personally when they are personally directed at me and telling me how I think or what I think.

Will have to come back with my other thoughts as I have a client here now. Later.

Simply when Cindy says the horse is " hot " she really means the horse is to darn pretty to touch trails like my handsome Cinetico ;-) ;-)

[Kerry W]

Simply when Cindy says the horse is " hot " she really means the horse is to darn pretty to touch trails like my handsome Cinetico ;-) ;-)

Actually, that is a good point Nito. Ask anyone who has a website, they get more inquiries from newbies about the horse with the most HAIR, or the prettiest color, even if the bio specifically states "NEEDS EXPERIENCED RIDER". Those collected show horses ARE a sight to behold, but one needs to be honest about their NEEDS and their SKILL LEVEL, before they go shopping, and don't let yourself get pulled so far off track by a pretty mane and tail...they really can be a pain to deal with, after a long day on the trail anyway. :lol:

[Fuego]

Honestly Carol, my post wasn't directed towards you and the Sporthorse. However, if you felt a 'boot' and DID get Sporthorse going, I wouldn't be disappointed :D

Perhaps if people didn't have to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to participate in western pleasure and versitily classes ( non fino type classes) and STILL get treated/veiwed as second class insignifgant participants, participation might increase at PFHA shows in those classes..... why spend loads of money and effort to get treated like dirt, I can sit home and get that for free :D

Lori pointed out the 'group mentality' that is seen as pro show or anti show ( pending on which BB group you're reading). I agree. But it would seem that this breed's organization seems to share the " other BB's" veiws, exclusively.

I thought a breed organization's function was to represent and promote the entire breed, not just one small elite group of owners within the breed.

If I was a PFHA show person, I wouldn't want anything to change either. And would fully support the breed organization. What's better then being singled out in a crowd and treated like you are far superior to the masses? That the others aren't even worthy of notice... I don't blame or resent the actual show people or horses in the least. No reason why they shouldn't enjoy the favortism extended to them. But it's not an actuall reflection on the individuals enjoying the favortism, it's a reflection of the source of the favoritism.

Like the Twix candy bar commercial " ALL FOR ME, NONE FORYOU!"

It's not the individuals that participate at PFHA shows, it's the management of the organizatiion that is the root of the problem. But as long as the majority continue to quietly $upport the minority, why would the organization change. Everything is just as they want it to be. Whine all you want, just as long as you keep those checks coming.

Recent case in point; the PFHA plans an extravagant show for a few children and when they come up $60,000 short for this extravaganza, they want all the lowly peons to chip in and pay for it. Heaven forbid the organization would dip into their $1.9 million dollar bank account to pay for the extravagance they feel is needed for a select few chldren that will be showing. But since we're talking about PFHA show horses( even if it is just a few of them), so that's all that matters, it would seem.

The Paso Fino breed in N.America desperately needs an organization that is willing to represent and promote this breed of horse. All we have now is a show oragnization representing and promoting a very small portion of this breed and supporting the owners of this small group. It may make the majority of current paso owners unhappy, but sadly, it's the breed itself that suffers the most from this mindset.

[Pasogirlz]

Simply when Cindy says the horse is " hot " she really means the horse is to darn pretty to touch trails like my handsome Cinetico ;-) ;-)

Actually, that is a good point Nito. Ask anyone who has a website, they get more inquiries from newbies about the horse with the most HAIR, or the prettiest color, even if the bio specifically states "NEEDS EXPERIENCED RIDER". Those collected show horses ARE a sight to behold, but one needs to be honest about their NEEDS and their SKILL LEVEL, before they go shopping, and don't let yourself get pulled so far off track by a pretty mane and tail...they really can be a pain to deal with, after a long day on the trail anyway. :lol:


So true! That is what happened w/Eclipse's owner. *the hot lil performance gelding that claims me as his....
He is a sight to behold....but holding him is not as easy as it looks. His owner loves the way he looks, but just doesn't have the skills to handle him. (total horse beginner) However...I have in the past few months, I've had this horse at the ranch and he has loved hitting the trails. He is easier to handle there than in the ring. He happily flat walks, and seemed to enjoy the little obstacle trail challenge mom and I set up for fun one weekend. He jumped logs, crossed creeks, and got to gallop. He seemed to love every minute.

[Pasofinoguy]

Am I wrong to sum this all up as. Most people here feel that in order for a paso to be winning in the show he has to be hot hot hot and if he isnt then the show trainer will make him hot and drive him into his bit. So then he isnt fun on the trails cause you must hold him back all the time?


I dont understand that anyway. Well I feel a proper trained horse should be on light reins and very very easy to control. If the horse is not then its training isnt right or isnt done or a novice has made the horse heavy handed by always pulling on it.

All of my horses have been shown and done great and have done bad but they are only at shows 3 or 4 weekends a year maybe. So you bet they are rode around the rest of the time. And it wouldnt be fun to ride them if they were trained the way you ppl are saying about show horeses. A trail horse should have collection too and not have his nose rolling peanuts.

[Cindy]

OK, I'm back to finish my previous thoughts.

MGs, I do not only train show horses and I have never turned any horse away from my barn unless I did not have a stall at which point I tell the owner when I will have a stall and they either wait for the stall or make other plans. So do not think that I do not know horses outside the show ring. I have trained every type Paso Fino you can possibly imagine.

And Jenn, it is a common misperception especially amoung newbies to the breed that the show horses are ridden all the time the way that you see them in the shows. Unfortunately, this causes many problems for some show horses that are bought by people who think they should ride them like that all the time. The fact is that when we are training our show horses, we ride them in a much more relaxed manner and work on basics and balance so that when we go to the show ring, they are better horses when we ask for the collection. If one rides a horse with this amount of collection all the time, one ends up with a very unhappy and usually crazy horse. Many of these horses are the ones that are being talked about here and they end up lunatics not because they were destined to become lunatics but because they were not properly trained and allowed to relax and enjoy their work. Think how nuts you would be if you were forced to be at the top of your game all the time. One of the most respected Colombian trainers told me a long time ago, "If you ask one hundred percent of your horse all the time, when you get to the show ring he will only give you eighty percent. Don't ask your horse for one hundred percent all the time and then when you do ask it of him him will give you one hundred percent."

[Pasogirlz]

And Jenn, it is a common misperception especially amoung newbies to the breed that the show horses are ridden all the time the way that you see them in the shows. Unfortunately, this causes many problems for some show horses that are bought by people who think they should ride them like that all the time. The fact is that when we are training our show horses, we ride them in a much more relaxed manner and work on basics and balance so that when we go to the show ring, they are better horses when we ask for the collection. If one rides a horse with this amount of collection all the time, one ends up with a very unhappy and usually crazy horse. Many of these horses are the ones that are being talked about here and they end up lunatics not because they were destined to become lunatics but because they were not properly trained and allowed to relax and enjoy their work. Think how nuts you would be if you were forced to be at the top of your game all the time. One of the most respected Colombian trainers told me a long time ago, "If you ask one hundred percent of your horse all the time, when you get to the show ring he will only give you eighty percent. Don't ask your horse for one hundred percent all the time and then when you do ask it of him him will give you one hundred percent."

:notworthy

[pasogalinbama]

i have one of thoses "Trail Horses" and would not take a million for her she is beautiful big and every thing a trail horse should be as Carol wrote.
I have ridden with show horses on the trail they did great but i would not trust some of them to carry me through most of the trails we ride, because they just had to much go and could not slow down to negotiate the trail in a safe manner. so maybe it depends on how you define "Trail riding" and i have ridden with other breeds that had to tear down the
trail wide open. that to me is not trail riding. sometimes you have to trust your life to your trail horse trust that he can make the right moves to keep both you on the trail not off the side. yes i love the old logging roads and easy trails but sometimes you just have to get a little wild.
I live in central alabama, there are no shows here for us when we do local show we get funny looks which i just love, i would love to see more classes in local show for the paso and i have had people on the trail say o that is those fancy horses. my girl can strut her stuff but on the trail it is loose rain and head down looking. she takes care of me i don't think any one was downing trail or show horses. just what one prefers. i drive a Ford my husband drive a Dodge. he likes his i like mine i don't down him for what he drives. so every one play nice :surrender :hug
and no i am not new to the PP i have had them since the early '80s

1. Disposition is tractable, willing, but not necessarily eager.
2. Brio is mild to medium. Medium for more advanced riders
3. A flat walk on a loose rein is the most important gait.
4. A bomb-proof or near-bomb proof horse.
5. A calm horse that negotiates whatever is in the trail carefully, with its head down looking at it, with trust in its rider.
6. A horse you can put your slicker on/off, run your camera, get in your packs, open and close velcro, snaps and zippers on, and wiggle on while flat walking or standing still.
7. A horse that stands for mounting and dismounting quietly, and near a mounting block for older and shorter people.
8. A horse that will carry packs, loose jackets, water bottles, etc.
9. Gait is natural, smooth, and does not require undue collection or training.

[Cindy]

Pasogal, I absolutely agree with you on what a good trail horse is. Some people think that a good trail horse is one that blindly goes wherever you point it. I want one that I can trust that if I point it somewhere we should not be going, he tells me that we should not be going there. THAT'S a good trail horse. 'Cause they are usually right.

[motorgypsy]

Cindy I still say you get the better horses!! Not all show as I said previously but still the better horses!! Some time we'll have to take you horse hunting in FL. You'd be amazed at what is advertised as a trail horse. And you might want to read my post again because I didn't say you trained only show horses because I know you don't.

If you guys saw the goat trails we ride our show horses on you'd definitely change your mind about not trusting them with your life. It takes time for a new owner to get any horse to trust them and some take longer than others. But once they do trust you, if they are show trained or specifically trail trained, they will do a great job for you if they had a good trainer - show or strictly trail.

We too consider our horse our partner and want her/him to tell us why we shouldn't go somewhere because sometimes the horse is right - it is dangerous and we just don't see the danger. We just have veto power! Once Chinook flat refused to go down a dirt road that we'd ridden many times. She wouldn't even back down it which is a first. I finally walked and led her. She's fine with that since whatever it is will eat me first! As we proceeded we saw on the road some large and unusual scat (aka poop) and large pawprints. We have a family of red wolves in our area. She knew there was something strange out there and she wasn't going to be eaten by it. But because she acted so peculiarly I was very much on the alert. Luckily wolves are very shy but it could have been a pack of dangerous feral dogs. You never know.

[Cindy]

Cindy I still say you get the better horses!! Not all show as I said previously but still the better horses!!

In general, I have very good clients who breed very good horses be they for trail or for show. But I get the others as well. Trust me. And part of my job is to evaluate horses for people who are buying Paso Finos. I know what is out there and also am pretty good at knowing if they are suitable for the buyer.

[Carol Nelson]

so maybe it depends on how you define "Trail riding" and i have ridden with other breeds that had to tear down the
trail wide open. that to me is not trail riding. sometimes you have to trust your life to your trail horse trust that he can make the right moves to keep both you on the trail not off the side.

Boy, I agree with that! I had the opportunity one time to ride with the woman who trained Tennessee Walking Horses for Ted Turner and Jane Fonda. Mr. Turner and Ms. Fonda owned the ranch bordering on our land at the time in New Mexico. (Of course, they owned 385,000 acres...we owned three... ;-) :lol: )
This trainer called me up one day and asked if I'd like to go with to "exercise the horses." I, of course, jumped at the chance! I had the privilege of riding Ted's own personal horse, a big rawboned Palomino TWH. She rode a Pinto, and ponied another horse behind her.
Well, let me tell you, we rode on trails like I had never imagined in my life...mind you, not like the beautiful, flat well-groomed trails shown in the PF promotional videos, but steep up and down cliff-side trails a foot wide with a 500 ft. drop on the downside. There were times when I just shut my eyes and let the horse pick it's way...and that horse never missed a step (I guess I'm still here to talk about it). I sure wouldn't have wanted to fino down those trails but you know what she told me? "Best way yet to teach a gaited horse to flat walk..." Oh yeah, you bet! :shock:

[Pasogirlz]

I sure wouldn't have wanted to fino down those trails but you know what she told me? "

I've got a Galopando video of Pasos going down a mountain trail in Colombia that was very narrow and rocky. AND they were gaiting away. I was very impressed. ;-)

[pasolucy]

I would like to know where all of these wonderful show horses that calm down and are quiet and sensible on the trail are. It is obvious from these posts that not a lot of people that are trail riding have been exposed to them, we just see the hot little fire cracker prancing and dancing, huffing and puffing down the trail. If there are so many of them why do we not see them on the trails. The only horses that I have ridden with are what I would call a trail horse, or a much hotter horse that is ridden on the trail when it is not being shown. Not the same thing and I have never seen a horse that can compete in the show ring be the kind of horse that i would enjoy riding on the trails. I rode last week end with a man that is taking his mare to Reno to show in Performance. The mare is beautiful, and I told him so, I really, really, liked this mare, I just did not want to own her and ride her as a trail horse and yes at times she did calm down and have what I would call a nice trail horse walk, but she was certainly not a horse for a novice. There was also another mare on that ride that has been shown and she has been for sale around her for 3 years that I know about. This kind of horse does not sell here.

[macadoo]

Pasolucy...I wish you would come see my horses..they do both...Show and mostly trail...I only show in 3 shows a season..so the rest of the time..I ride the trails...I think part of this is the location..it's East vs. West. instead of show vs. trail.....You probably have a totally different kind of trail riding than we do here in the East...My guys go everywhere...and seem to love it...Guess we are just different up here in Pa....

[Fuego]

pasolucy, what you have described as your experience, IS very common. And I have seen many 'hot' ex show horses that have been become great trail horses. However, most of them required extensive retraining and time and patience.

But honestly, it usually depends on how the horse is handled and trained. There are many Paso trainers that train for all the basics first ( which should be done w/any horse regardless of it's intended use). They then move on to refining the skills and qualities wanted for the show ring. And many of these show horses are every bit as comfortable and competant on the trails as any full time trail horse.

I'm sure you've seen Shelly's Vencedor posted here on the BB with Shelley trail riding thru all types of terrain. Vencedor was initially trained for show and shown successfully in Pleasure and Performance, but when the owner/trainer quickly lost interest in showing, Vencedor didn't need to be retrained as a trail horse, he already was one, because he was trained properly as horse first , then as a show horse. There are many show pasos trained in the same manner.

Unfortunately not all trainers( as in every breed and discipline) are as responsible and conscientous with their training. And some show horses' training is limited to what is required in the show ring ( gaiting around in a circle in hyper drive). But show horses with this type of training often won't do well enough or last long enough in the show ring, and so are sold off to anyone that will buy them. And in their minds, since the horse is a show ring cull, it's only suitable as a trail horse. And sold as such.

In Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Missouri, and Kentucky, I've heard the same stories form vets and farriers: They hate working with pasos because they've never seen one that can stand long enough to 'work on' and have no ground manners. And it's usually one or two show barns that are given as an example . Many of the farriers refuse to work at those barns, now.
And from trainers I hear about little old ladies buying 'trail' horses from the Paso show barns that are hyper and nervous the moment you even get close to the horses. Anything but trail safe trail horses.
I've always recieved surprised comments and compliments on my Paso's ground manners and behavior from vets and farriers with their bad but limited experience with pasos and try to impress on them that my Paso is not an exception to the breed, but the norm of any decently trained Paso.

After you get out of the south east, Pasos and Paso farms are fewer and far between, so it only takes 1 or 2 farms to push their untrained show ring culls onto the trail world in a large area to give all Paso show barns(and the breed) a bad name, especially when exposure and knowledge about the breed is already so limited.

And of course we notice the 'show horses' that aren't yet quite suitable as trail horses, but I'd bet you wouldn't have suspected Vencedor of being a show horse if you saw me plopping down the road talking on my cell phone, playing in the stream or chasing cows on him. And even as a stallion, he was quite often rode bitless. So it's possible you have seen show horses on the trail, but just didn't realize it. :D

[Serendipity]

Pasolucy if you ever come to Tennessee stop by My horses are show horses that I trail ride most of the time.

One thing very few have mentions and it goes show horses,trail horses and everything in between.and that experance. Trails in the east are not like trails in the west or from north to south.

Its not fair to expect any horse to exept any new envoirment I know from moving from Ohio to Tennessee there was a world of differance up there we liveing in the flat land where you could see your neighbors house a mile or so away till the corn was to high and we road mostly on field roads and around fiels and thur the wood on roads big enough for a tractor that was the normal then here in tennessee this is not so trying to find a flat spot takes luck trails are deer or four wheeler paths and hills are every where its was a culture shock for us both.
So I'm sure it someome buys a horse in FL and takes it to CA or else where that horse not only instantly has a new person that they are expected to trust right then but every thing looks differant so thats very scary so of course the horse will be unperdictable,
I still am amazed at the differances between Ohio and Tennessee one thing is in TN they like to fry ever like at the fair they have deep fryed twinkies and snickers :shock: :shock: and NO elephant ears :jawdrop (like we got in Ohio)

[pasogalinbama]

when i first got into Paso, the versatility, of the breed was one of the things i liked as well and simple way they where trained, i was told that they where used as work horses during the week and shown on the weekend. they where used for games and working cattle, i know things have changed a lot in the show ring as well, i think that one of the biggest problems is the fact that the Paso has gotten a bad rep. from other horse owners, that they are to hot and to crazy. for any thing but showing, i have ridden with people that are surprised at how calm and well behaved my horse is, we need to educate the general public as to the nature of the paso we can go on and on about how our pasos are good show and trail horses. but each of us has our own view of things, having had pasos for so many years, i have had all kinds. from the laid back and calm to the hot as a fire cracker. some that where very sensitive that could not stand to have your legs on them to those that where not bothered by any thing the rider did so lets stop baing our heads aganist the wall :duh
some pasos are not cut out for the trail and some are not cut out for the show ring, but yet some can do both.

[Trudy]

This is almost like the old days. FIGHTING on the BB!!! Cindy,