Show culls

[Cindy]

Since much has been said to the negative about "show culls" I just thought it might be informative to show the other side of the coin so to speak. First, the word cull in the horse industry is generally used to define a horse that is so bad that it is either killed (one extreme) or simply removed from the breeding program (the other end of the cull spectrum). So the mere use of the word cull to describe any horse by design denotes a very negative image of the particular horse. And hence far that is the only image of "show culls" that has been portrayed on this BB. So much so that if I, after reading what has been written, were looking for a good Paso Fino horse, I would most definitely avoid any show type horse I ran across. This this would be unfortunate not only for many good horses that are on the market but also for many good people who are looking for good horses, I felt the need to show the "show cull" in another light heretofor unmentioned. So here goes.

Let me preface this by explaining what ALL of these show culls have in common. These are all horses that have been bred by responsible breeders who care for their horses and breed good quality animals. They are handled from birth, vaccinated regularly, have regular farrier work and are handled in the most professional manner possible. All have good conformation, are sound of mind and body and are not lunatics.

Show cull number 1- This horse was bred to be a show horse and has been raised and trained for this purpose. It has been trained on trails and has a good head on it's shoulders but when taken to a couple shows it is evident that he is not at all comfortable in the show ring. This horse is very relaxed on the trial and will go anywhere but becomes a different horse when it enters the show ring and is scared and unhappy. It is obvious to the owner that this is not the life for this particular horse. This horse is put up for sale as a trail horse. This horse would be a great horse for someone who is experienced as it is still young. Not a horse for a beginner at this time but great potential for an experienced rider.

Show cull number 2- This horse has been bred to show and has shown successfully as a schooling horse. The horse is with a trainer for show season and during the off season it is at home with the owner who rides daily on the trails. This horse is well mannered and easy to ride and has done well in the show ring for the owner as a schooling horse but just does not have what it takes to show on the National level as an adult horse. The horse is put up for sale. This would be a good horse for someone who wants to ride the trails and go to the occasional local show and be competitive.

Show cull number 3- This horse was bought from the breeder by a green amatuer. It is their first horse and has taught them how to ride and show. It is a good quality show horse, maybe not top of the line but competitive none the less and a horse that can teach it's rider. The rider has learned from this horse and moved on to a more challenging animal. This horse is put up for sale. This horse is good for most anyone who is looking for a good riding horse but is, obviously, great for a beginner in the breed.

Show cull number 4- This horse was bred to be a show horse but after 6 months under saddle it is determined that this horse does not have the quickness or the movement to be a show horse. It is good on the trails, well gaited and a very mellow and a horse that anyone can easily ride even at it's young age. The horse is put up for sale. This is a great horse for anyone who has experience with any breed of horse. Also a good buy for someone who wants to put some miles on him and sell him when he is more mature.

Show cull number 5- This is a horse that was shown by professionals as a young horse and is later sold to a child who rides the horse in shows, on trails, in parades, anywhere they can find to ride this horse, it has been there and done that. The child is now grown and has gone off to college. The horse is put up for sale. This is a great horse for anyone looking for a horse.

Show cull number 6- This is a mare who had a great show career and was later retired for breeding. The horse is ridden as a family horse around the farm and on trails, in parades, in exhibitions between having foals. She has for some reason become unable to carry a foal and because her owner is a breeder and has other riding horses, she is put up for sale. This is a tremendous opportunity for someone to get a great riding horse that anyone can ride anywhere for a fraction of the cost.

Show cull number 7- This horse is owned by a breeder who employs a trainer. This horse has been shown and trail ridden, ridden by the kids, the great uncle, the nephews, the neighbors. It is the demo horse for the farm. But the farm has 100 horses so everything is for sale. This is a great beginner horse who has more experience than any horse can possibly have.

These are just a few of the horses that have popped into my head today. There are a many stories of "show culls" as there are horses so I could go on and on but I think you get the drift. Be it a show horse or a trail horse, shop, shop, shop and find the horse that is right for YOU if you are in the market. Do not be afraid to look at any horse or visit any farm that has a good reputataion as you never know where you will find that horse that is just right for you. And happy shopping.

[Cathy]

That was great Cindy. Thanks for taking the time to post it!

[Cindy]

You are very welcome, Cathy. Why don't you tell us the story of your "show cull". :twisted:

[CarolU]

Okay Cindy....

Those are certainly nice stories of some Paso Finos. I agree that very many Paso Finos come from wonderful breeders, are well bred, well trained, and go to good homes and make wonderful mounts for people of all ages.

LET ME PREFACE THIS THAT NOT ONE COMMENT HERE IS DIRECATED AT YOU CINDY, YOUR HORSES, YOUR TRAINING OR YOUR CUSTOMERS. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING PERSONAL OR "SLAMMING" TO YOU IN ANY WAY.

What happens to those Paso Finos who don't gait? There are many of them at the auction at Nationals. Are they not "culls"?

Where DO those Paso Finos come from that have lost their minds and get sold to unsuspecting people? They gait like crazy, but completely tune out where they are and what is happening around them. I've seen three of them, and been told about others from people all over. Somebody does that to those horses.

What happens to them to make them that way?

[Linda Y]

And why do *I* keep finding them??
Show culls 2,3,5,6,and 7 sound like horses I have been looking FOR. But I keep finding Carol's examples.
Except Paintedhorizon's example.
My shopping hasn't been happy. It has been tiring and frustrating. I wish I knew where these horses were that you speak of.

[Cindy]

You are absulutely right, Carol. Someone does that to those horses and there are many people who breed bad horses. But that is not exclusive to ANY one end of the breed. There are just as many bad breeders and trainers of trail horses as there are of show horses. Perhaps you could come up with a POSITVE story to tell? Perhaps?

[SandyMM]

Culls #8 - Those who might have made decent horses - reasonably gaited, good natured, but who were pushed to the frying point and beyond by trainers and/or owners in an ego/money-driven search for show points - often damaged beyond repair, yet sold as a 'great trail horse with brio'. If you can't ride this poor thing - it's obviously your fault... right? (Not!)

Culls # 9 - from the huge indiscriminantly-bred herds where a half-dozen or less are deemed 'worthy' of basic handling each year and the rest are first offered 'reluctantly to unknowledgeable buyers for exhorbitant $$$, and the remainder are dumped as fast as possible - often for free, frequently witout papers - to get them off the property before they sully a breeder's/stallion's reputation...

Culls #10 - horses dumped on the market as 'trail horses' which have, in fact, never seen a 'trail', have at best minimal training, poor gait and/or are trained by 'professionals' who manage to destroy even the most naturally perfect gait in horses in the name of 'tight and quick'...

And most pathetic, the true show cull, who shouldn't be in the ring at all - has _never_ gaited correctly due to poor breeding - but is big, beautiful, and will move its feet fast enough (with a rider trained to hide the bone-jarring ride) to confuse an unsuspecting prospective buyer with deep pockets - netting the unscrupulous seller tens of thousands of dollars for a horse that is a miserable ride through no fault of its own.

[Cindy]

Linda, you should have bought Barb's horse when she had her moment of weakness. :lol:

[Cindy]

Wow, it seems that it is tremedously difficult to find any positive aspect whatsoever in this breed. I guess I am the only one who likes the Paso Finos that I run across in my world. Ya'll can visit my world if you would like. It is not a bad place.

[SandyMM]

There are just as many bad breeders and trainers of trail horses as there are of show horses.
I doubt that.... People who specialize in breeding and training trail/pleasure horses know that they'll be tested in a way no show horse could be... An A/O rider who hires a trainer can be told that it's the A/O's fault that the horse isn't gaiting... because the _trainer_ can _make_ the horse gait... A trail/pleasure buyer doesn't care what they're told nearly as much as what they _experience_ in the saddle... If the horse needs special training to gait and/or doesn't have the disposition to face all the typical things that can pop up on the trail... it's more obviously a trainer/horse issue and the buyer _should_ keep looking and most often will...

[Cindy]

Not going to argue that point with you, Sandy. Just stating MY experience over the last 30 plus years. And also of the horses that I receive in to be "fixed". Some of which are irreparable.

[SandyMM]

it is tremedously difficult to find any positive aspect whatsoever in thi
It got a lot more difficult when the breed was 'improved' in the last couple of decades... There are incredible Pasos available - but the naturally gaited, sensible from the day they hit the ground, smooth-gaited, easy to train Pasos are getting harder to find as the trocha-gaited show-trained/fried culls leave the ring and the breeding farms. There are incredible Pasos available - thank goodness for the respondsible breeders who value the old values of the original breed description over the recent fads...

[Mona Lisa]

-----A trail/pleasure buyer doesn't care what they're told nearly as much as what they _experience_ in the saddle------


This I have to disagree with. I have helped paso riders with their first "show horse", and each time we had the discussion of how the horse felt to them. Trail riders unfortunately do get told that a horse just has to get used to certain things, which is some cases might be true but in some cases the horse is just an idiot and no amount of training will make them a good reliable trail mount. Fact is that either a horse has the disposition and the sense to handle the real world whether they were bred for show or trail or they don't. There are just as many untruthful sales in the trail world as in the show world.

Mona

[SandyMM]

But again I have experience with "trail" horses that just didn't make good trail horses
I'd be interested in knowing what bloodlines these failed 'trail' horses came from...

Just riding a Paso on a trail doesn't make it a 'trail horse' any more than putting a trail-bred/pleasure Paso in the ring makes it a 'show horse'.

[PasoVicki]

Cindy,
I think everyone here is willing to take your word that the horses you're talking about exist. And we know that the reason these horses exist is because of breeders and trainers like you. I just think, perhaps, buyers need pointers on how to find and identify them, since many of the "other kind" exist as well.

[Linda Y]

You know Sandy, that is pretty true. Back in the days of the dinosaurs when I first got into Pasos, it was FUN to go to shows. The horses were mostly beautifully gaited naturally, no shoes and happy attitudes. The people were friendly and loved to show off their lovelies.
I have 3 Pasos now that would in no way be considered show horses. They are all culls. All 3 are pretty horses with wonderful dispositions. All 3 are from my breeding. And I love them. That is why finding another one is so difficult...it has to live up to these, and their predecessors. Am I too picky? Maybe, but this is a horse I *hope* to keep all it's life and I want it to be perfect for me.
Since I am looking for a trail horse, I am looking at a lot of horses that are being sold as such but have never seen a trail in their lives. Just what Mona Lisa said...just because it isn't a show horse doesn't mean it will be a trail horse. Some of these horses are too boogery to make trail horses, some don't watch where they go, or care if they run their riders knees into trees. It takes a special horse to be a GOOD trail horse.
Unfortunately, Barb didn't have her horse for sale long enough for anyone to buy him...smart girl!

[pasolucy]

Cindy,
you need to find some novice person that you can trust, send them out to shop for Paso Finos and see how many of the horses that you describe that they find compared to the kind that Sandy and Carol are describing. I have gone with people to look at a Paso for sale and very few of them are the horse that you are describing. Maybe there is plenty of them where you live, if they have good size to them someone ought to buy a truckload of them and try selling them in the western half of the country.

[Cindy]

Vicky,

I think the main thing has been pointed out here by many people. Ride a lot of horses, go to many different farms, familiarize yourself with the breed and ALL of it's facets and if someone tells you it is a chicken when it is ovbious that it is a duck, run. I think a good tool is to find a good trainer THAT YOU CAN TRUST that is not just out to sell you anything on their farm or on their clients farms and get their advice. It is best if you do the leg work so that you can have more resources than only what the trainer has to offer but have the trainer check out any horse that you are interested in. Take your time and do not be pushed or tempted into a horse that is not right FOR YOU.

[Cindy]

Pasolucy, part of my job is helping people find horses. I agree, it is hard to find a good, solid trail horse. Why? Because when people find them, they do not sell them. But there are plenty of them out there. Finding the right horse for the person in this breed, especially for a novice, takes a lot of work. And that is for the simple fact that we are a relatively small breed. There is a Quarter Horse on every corner. It is not terribly hard to find a good one within an hours drive. But that is just not true in this breed. Especially for those of you in the west. I know how hard it is. When someone comes to me looking for that first bomb proof horse to teach them, it takes a while to find that horse. Because, as I said, people in this breed tend to not sell them. They keep them until they die. That is one thing that as a trainer and breeder in this breed I am glad of because it just sickens me to see horses treated as objects to be disgarded when one is through with them. Fortunately this breed has less of that than does others and for that I am thankful But it does make it hard to buy these horses when they are not for sale.

One big problem that I run accross is people wanting the perfect horse and wanting to pay $2,000 for it. I had a lady call me the other day looking for a horse. She told me what she needed and it was obvious that she needed a deadbroke horse that anyone could ride. Well, she wanted to spend $2,500 for this horse. I explained to her that she would not likely find that horse for that kind of money and if she did find a horse for that price it would have some kind of problem that she was not qualified to deal with. I told her of a couple horse that I know around the $5,000 or $6,000 range that would be what she was looking for but she said she could not spend that much. She was also not willing to drive about 4 or 5 hours away. So she asked me what I had for sale in my barn. Well, the only horse that I have actively for sale in my barn is a yearling colt. So I told her that. Then she starts asking me about HIM. Now, a yearling colt is the LAST thing that she needs and I would never sell him to her but because he was not a far drive and his price was lower, she was interested in him. So, you see, it is not only the sellers that are the problem.

[SandyMM]

a good trainer THAT YOU CAN TRUST
Integrity of the breeder/seller/trainer is imperative. There are a tiny number of people in the Paso business that I would buy from sight-unseen and even less that I would trust to train my horses.

[CarolU]

Let me preface this by explaining what ALL of these show culls have in common. These are all horses that have been bred by responsible breeders who care for their horses and breed good quality animals. They are handled from birth, vaccinated regularly, have regular farrier work and are handled in the most professional manner possible. All have good conformation, are sound of mind and body and are not lunatics.



Cindy, I think the point we all are making is that you were the one to use the word "ALL". If that were the case then none of us would have any complaints with show-bred and trained Paso Finos. Yes, the examples you fave are all wonderful and I don't doubt true. I can/will give you similar wonderful examples...have a good friend here who bought to show Paso Finos from Marcia Davis, loves them, shows them, does dressage with one and everything in the world with the other. They are great horses and a tribute to Marcia, her breeeding and training.

Yes, there are wonderful trainers like you - and Don - and others, who do a great job putting a sound foundation on a horse for whatever use it will eventually find in life. But there are as many (maybe more?) breeders/owners/trainers who breed a LOT of horses, pick and choose the best, if one doesn't work out, or looses it's mind, they go get another one..."throw away" horses that end up with some unsuspecting buyer. They don't get good foundations, they don't see outside an arena, they don't get a chance to show anybody that there is a real horse inside. This is a sad reality of our breed.

It is also a reality that we have to SEE to CHANGE. Look how many people are on this BB. Look how many have trouble finding a good horse. That's pretty sad.

And BTW - I agree that there some very bad Trail/Pleasure/backyard breeders who breed some pretty krunky horses and foist them off on unsuspecting first-time buyers (I've seen this too). But the numbers are very small compared to what happens in the S.E.

I love these horses. I love this breed. I would own them, even if they trotted (in fact I own one that trots)...it is all so unnecessary. They are the most sensitive, eager, willing to please breed on the planet. It is really sad that 'some' people are so focused on Championships, they forget that the horse is living, thinking, feeling, entity.

Sorry...got on my SOAP BOX. I'll get off now.

But this is why IF I had lots of $$, I'd rescue everyone of these Pasos...

[Fuego]

I see the term "show cull" simply as a horse that has been bred and trained specificly for the show ring, shown long enough to realize the horse was not going to be compettive in the show ring, and 'removed' ( or culled) from that barn's 'show string'. ( often with little or no training to do anything else)
I wouldn't consider a successfully retired show horse, a show cull. Just a former show horse.
If 'show cull' is politicaly incorrect, what do we call them? Show ring rejects? failed show prospects?????

Here's a nice story for you:

A former Nat'l Performance Champion mare. An amazing gaiting machine, perfect ground manners ( accepted ANYTHING with dull lifeless apathy). Was full throttle the second you hit the saddle but still able to be ridden/shown by experienced older children. It was the kids running her on the trail that 'broke' her gait. No longer able to be shown because of the hop she acquired when in her full throttle Performance gait, yet still unable to actually relax under saddle to make a good or safe trail horse. Due to physical problems that developed, she was unable to bred and required her back legs to be cleaned twice daily when in heat ( once a day when not in heat). So she was given away (dumped), by the show barn. ( even though she was a former Nat'l Champ.... no showing, no breeding, no value... that sounds like 'culling' to me)

After many months of extensive work and patience, she did learn to relax under saddle, and began to respond to love and attention with light in her eyes ( instead of the dead eyed resignation of before). And did become a good trail horse.
She went on to become the center of a little girl's life. And this little girl can be seen riding her very first pony (this former fire breathing Nat'l Perf. Champion) bareback w/ a halter and lead rope through the fields with a smile that stretches from ear to ear.

[Cindy]

Cindy, I think the point we all are making is that you were the one to use the word "ALL". If that were the case then none of us would have any complaints with show-bred and trained

Carol, I used the word ALL for my examples. NOT for the entire world of Paso Fino horses.

And BTW - I agree that there some very bad Trail/Pleasure/backyard breeders who breed some pretty krunky horses and foist them off on unsuspecting first-time buyers (I've seen this too). But the numbers are very small compared to what happens in the S.E.


If there are numbers AT ALL where you live then they are NOT small by comparison of percentages to the South East. I have lived in the West and from my experience the problem is worse there but it is not mainly because of bad owners. It is more becasue of lack of knowledge and lack of resources to gain the knowledge.

And, Carol, I would choose them regardless of gait as well. It is highly secondary to me and I choose to train horse only because there are Paso Finos.

[Cindy]

Great story, Fuego. Thankyou. And what we should call them is Paso Fino horses.

[Abejita]

Carol I think you took Cindy's post out of context.The ALL she is referring to are only the horses in her post.All of which as she pointed out at the end are ACTUAL horses she has known.(at least thats how I took it as she said they popped into her head today.She never stated that she doesnt believe the 'culls' everyone else talks about doesnt exist.It goes back to what was stated in another post about everyone giving 'show' a bad rap. She is just trying to even out all the negativity by posting positive experiences she has had.
I too see that the 'trail only' mentality on this board does seem to be less flexible than the 'show' mentality.I personally have/am dealing with the bad side of ex-show horses due to only being trained one sided or too made 'hot' but I am not going to say that all show horses are not suitable for trail.My mare (no longer ridable due to headshaking) never saw a show ring ,but that was what she was bred for,thats where she was heading .She was very hot but very well broke (thank you Jim Laird.) as the people that owned her before me were not used to 'that much horse"I sure wasnt- so he made sure she was very well broke.Plus it's just her personality to be sensative. But I never once felt like she was out of control,unlike one I am dealing with now.National quality??doubt it but in her time would have probably been up there in the regionals. All I ever did was trail ride her and if I could trade all my other horses (yes even my beautiful Bruja) to have that mare back like she was ,rideable so I could take her out on the trail again for a few more years, I would do it in a NY minute..even if it meant I could never own another horse after she was gone.

[Cindy]

Abejita, WOW. Thanks for that story of your love for your horse.

[Mona Lisa]

My favorite trail mount (owned by very good friend) is a reserve national champ mare bred by Marcia Davis. She is unflappable on the trail -- only quirk if any is that she must be in front of the pack. We have ridden on trails where I literally close my eyes and let loose the reins and she gets us through.

My advise to anyone looking for either trail or show is to leave the check book at home, get an honest feel for the horse and trust your gut, also if possible bring someone along that is familiar with the breed.

Mona

[GeorgeGuns]

Interesting thread. Here's my totally unprofessional take on it:

There's "show culls", and there are Culls, two different beings. Regular old culls would be those horses that ought not ever be bred. A 'show cull' would be, in my head, any horse that isn't cut out for the show ring, for whatever reason, that was originaly meant to be for show.
I think too that using the term 'cull' is very subjective. IMO geldings are culls - if its not worth keeping stud for any reason (horse or owner) geld it. If spaying mares were as easy, I wonder if as many people would do it.

After Cindy's original post, a lot of the negativity I saw posted had more to so with trainer method than horse. That makes this 'show cull' idea even more ... nebulous? The effects of a trainer in that case put the hores out of 'show cull' status and leaning towards.. abused? That's harsh, but I don't know any other way to put it, and IMO horses that are wrecked by a trainer, well it doesn't really matter what that horse was intended for, the arena is really kind of secondary.

I think a lot of the bias towards bad show practice we see posted about here is mostly because the folks that post here, and show, also trail ride a lot, and have good all around horses no matter what the show level is. The idiots that turn out mind-altered horses just don't happen to post here, ya know? So of course there is a bias here. And I think I can safely assume that many here have ended up with some of these blown horses, which increases the bias. Its hard to not be personal and negatively subjective when you have had to rehab a horse's mind.

Cindy, I think the examples you gave are from a highly professional perspective, and I would reckon that the reasons you listed such are because a) you can pick your battles and b) you probably have a category in your mind for the negative examples that others listed. (this is an assumption and I admit it!!!!)

Now, what to do with Medias. He LOVES the ring, adores attention, hates trail rides unless in company and I don't reckon that is likely to change - he just likes company period so he has someone to show off for or its just no fun. BUT while his gaits are good, they aren't fast enough to show (although if conditioned he'd race well I bet), and he has a permanant crick in his neck. Show horse? nope. Trial horse? nope. Gelded - obviously. what to doooooo, what to do. OH I KNOW - PARADES!!!!

Do we have parade culls in this breed? (sorry, couldn't help but ask)

Here's my show cull/trail cull gelding:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/Coreen/MimiPose.jpg

[Fuego]

I honestly can't say what the breeder's intent was when breeding my mostly PR Paso gelding ( of very well known PR bloodlines) , but he's definately not PFHA show quality, and he's a horrible trail horse, too excitable and unreliable ( not that I let little things like that stop me from trail riding him, though). Needless to say trail riding him is not always calm, relaxing, or even safe for that matter, but it sure can be exciting :D

Just ask Dana, years ago she saw him walk down a near vertical incline on loose gravel, on his back legs only :shock: . Why did he do this? Because the incline was so steep, we sent the horses down one at a time, and he didn't want to wait his turn. The look of horror Dana's face was priceless, lol ( and I was the one on the horse!)

I couldn't HONESTLY sell him as a trail or show horse. Heck, I probably couldn't PAY anyone to take" Mr. Spazzola" off my hands, lol. So I've accepted that I'm stuck with him. He does have redeeming qualities, just not as a dependable trail or show or novice rider mount, hehe.
He CAN BE excellent on the trail now, but you just always have to be ready for just about anything with him.

He's not a horse for 'everyone', but he's OK with me....( most days, anyways ;-) )

And no, he had not ever been trained for or shown in the show ring.

[Pam M]

OK...positive comments...I love show culls! Especially the one I lease (and plan to buy). And she probably qualifies every which way as a cull. She's also the classic crazy, fire-breathing, hot-headed type. She scares people who visit me until they get used to her and see through her bluff. But she's my very best trail horse. And that's comparing her to QH's, a Mustang and an App, all with much more trail experience. She puts the fun back in riding. Fun - not fear, not adrenaline rush - I'm not psychotic or terribly brave. In fact, I'm a pretty lousy rider. But as crazy as she seems, she's takes good care of me whether I'm on her back or beside her. We didn't get to this point overnight. Have some faith in your "bad horses" and they just might surprise you!

P.S. She's also living proof that Cindy doesn't just accept "the best" in her barn.

[Heidi]

This is exactly what I was thinking about as I was reading on page 1...
...it is hard to find a good, solid trail horse. Why? Because when people find them, they do not sell them.
...simple fact that we [Paso Fino] are a relatively small breed.
There is a Quarter Horse on every corner...
I would think that any horse that was given a good basic foundation could go on and do anything. I wonder if the problem horses are possibly ones that are rushed with their training to get them into the show ring while ignoring the basics...and these are the horses that people are considering the show culls? I think that possibly another factor, is because this breed [Paso Fino] is so relativley small, that the negative just tends to stand out more. When we number like the QHs, then I think the scales will tip in favor of the great PFs out there...but like Cindy said...when people get a good horse (any breed) they tend to hold onto them like the treasures they are!
Heidi

...had to edit with another thought I just had...
Paso Finos are a sensitive breed, more so than any other I've seen, with the possible exception of the Arabian. I wonder if a major part of the problem is that new riders have not had time to BOND with their PF, as that seems to be a VERY important factor with this breed.
Once you have their trust and they have confidence in you, I think they will do anything for you. But not before they trust you.

[Red Ryder]

gotta jump in a little bit.

I have a stallion that was sucessful in the ring. 4th in fino colts at nationals. Not good enough for the owner so he was pushed beyond what he could give so he just withdrew and became a problem horse. Took 2 years for him to trust me. I've had him 9 years and everyone said I couldn't handle him too much horse.

He's now my buddy, will do anything I ask and he enjoys it. What's the difference?? I know his limits and when we approach the limits he tells me that we are going beyond his ability. Sometimes, esp in a parade he will take over himself and I'm riding more horse than I ever dreamed I could ever own.

He's a joy, would part with him for the world. were just growing older together and both of us are enjoying every minute of it. His hate attitude is now one of love. He's with a frend right now and I didn't see him for 3 months and when I did, I opened his stall he came put his head over my shoulder and I hugged him and have to admit the lump in my throat was big and I turned away so the others couldn't see that something was in my eye. He's being ridden by a 14yo girl 4/5 times a week and on trails, parades and he has bonded with her to the point I'm in danger of loosing MY horse.

Oh, did I forget to say he was a "Show Cull"?????

So yes "some" [key word] show horse culls can be excellent horses, just takes honest handling, love and patience.

[CarolU]

Hollis...that was a marvelous story...got something in my eye just reading it.

To be honest, I think almost ALL "show culls" and ex show horses can become wonderful horses with patience, love, time, knowledge and the desire to make it happen. Even the 'lost mind' horses can at least live a life without anymore stress in it.

But, that is in a 'perfect world.' Few people want to take on these "project horses" and those that do have lots of problems and need lots of support and encouragement.

[motorgypsy]

A wonderful story Hollis. You won't lose him by the way. He just has one more friend. They don't forget.

I do think many people just don't realize how traumatic it is for a horse to be uprooted from all it's comrades and sent to a totally new and strange place. No wonder they misbehave. It does take time.

It took 2 years with Chinook also. It took much less time with the two we got from BarbP I think because the two sisters stayed together so they had each other but it was over a year before they could be separated without going bonkers.

[GeorgeGuns]

I would think that any horse that was given a good basic foundation could go on and do anything. I wonder if the problem horses are possibly ones that are rushed with their training to get them into the show ring while ignoring the basics

Ya'd think huh? IMO a trainer that is good enough to be that thorough with a foundation will be honest enough to tell what a horse will be able to do and honor that for the horse. Horses have personalities and opinions, and no matter how good the training is, what the owner wants and what the horse wants may just be at odds.
I'm sure plenty of problem horses are rushed - wether for show or for trail or whatever.

I totally agree with the trust factor though. I have a mare here that had all the basics you could stuff into a horse.. and she is one of the most untrusting animals I ever want to deal with. Basics without sensativity to the horse's emotional needs is squat.

[motorgypsy]

You know that may be one of the problems with our breed - they have opinions! And aren't at all reluctant to let you know what they are. People just aren't used to that. Perhaps we need to advertise them as the "THINKING MAN/WOMAN's HORSE"

[Mellifluous]

My first paso was a "show cull" - a tubby little adorable 13.2 hand ex fino gelding "show cull" -

This is a great example of a newbie to the breed going to a large breeding farm - looking for a trail/all around paso and getting one that happened to be an ex show horse out of "non-trail horse" fino bloodlines - early in this horses career he was pushed, abused, had his mind blown and was a train wreck. This lady bought him and worked with him with love and patience and turned him back into a sane, safe horse that her daughter could ride. He went back in the show ring as this new horse and won regional high point awards...I just don't think his heart was in it. He enjoyed getting out in the relaxed trail/outdoor environment as opposed to the high stress and energy show ring.

So here I came, a 19 year old college student who had just got bitten by the paso bug. I went to this farm to visit met the really nice lady that had this little gelding. I loved him. He did exactly what you asked of him. He was push button in the saddle and had excellent ground manners once you caught him. He became mine and we did everything together. From Barrel Racing to Saddle Club Shows. He was always a booger to catch but other than that he was a dream. He would bravely go where no paso had gone before (in this part of GA anyway). He had spunk and heart. He was the best first paso anyone could have asked for. He taught me many things and was very patient with me.

His hocks started to go bad at age 17. He still had heart and spunk but his body had started to betray him.

Now I have a 23 year old ex performance show mare - that I got from the same farm. She was and still can be a real spunky lady when she wants to...and Baileyholc rode her on a trail ride last weekend and she did just fine.

My latest horse was a blank slate- a really really blank slate when I got her. As stated in another thread, I let her grow up and sent her to a trainer that could teach her the things she needed to know for all of the activities that I enjoy participating in. He did that and taught me what I needed to know to keep her on the right track.

I don't think that she comes from what some of you would call "trail horse" bloodlines, nor do I think her breeders had that use in mind. She is however a calm, smart, willing, sensitive horse that is actually a bit on the lazy side....sometimes quite a bit. ;-) I think that means that we have been hanging out with QH too much! :razz:

[appyday]

Do you all realize I got Vence without ever seeing him or riding him?? I also bougt Star sight unseen (well a photo of a fat mare)...I rode Condesa one time and bought her...and Bubba was unbroke I looked at him for 3 min in a stall and said bring him when you bring Condesa..

I rode Roger one time and paid a FAIR amount for him...

Do I have good luck or am I stupid??

[Edurne]

appyday..... what were your criteria for those purchases...... and how did you decide that those horses met your criteria?
just nosy :D

[CarolU]

Shelley...I think you are a lot more experienced then the average first time buyer in this breed. Also, even when you had an ubroke horse, you sent him to a very good 'trail' trainer. You are a confident rider and fix any problem you encounter. You also live in the North and there are far fewer big Paso barns around with ex-show horses. Other then Vence, none of your horses had been shown, and none of your horses are from the South where there are many big farms that produce a lot of horses. And when you were shopping for Vence, you did look at a lot of horses and pass on them. You also have D!ck there, who has some nice stock.

It is fairly uncommon to find ex-show horses here in the west also - that doesn't mean we don't have some problem breeders. But most horses here are pleasure and trail horses. There aren't many shows, so very few show horses. Yes there are people who want to show competitively - and they frequently go to Florida or Texas to buy show-line horses. Horses out here are bigger, thicker boned/bodied, and from my experience have a h@ll of a lot bigger head. I only have one horse that regular Colombian tack fits without the brow band being cut and both it and the cheek pieces added on to.

They also have a lot bigger gait, larger largos, and ground covering walks. A 15hh horse here is not uncommon. Very few have the short strided "Paso Gait" that you find in the show lines.

You know, I think everyone SHOULD go to Nationals or Spectrum or Ashville. One of the big shows. See what caliber of horses are there, because therer are horses who show, and then there are "show horses."

[sporthorse]

It is all in what you can afford to pay. The show farm demo horse likely is a demo horse because that is a a trail horse/trial horse. the show culls at auctions no matter the bloodlines ,one would do much better spending thier $250 on two mustangs and get better gait and disposition. however the best are available but I would only sell to the "best" homes if I was a responsible breeder."Best is not about money either but they would still have to pay the highest of price for the best horse. High payments will insure proper investment of the human's noble intent.

[Carol Nelson]

Kudos to you, sporthorse...you said it all and very short and to the point!!!

[Cindy]

So in my reading this morning I am learning that the SOUTHEAST is where the problem is because we are where all the big/bad irresponsible show breeders are. Well, I am in North Georgia and am in the Georgia region and I cannot for the life of me think of ONE big show/breeding farm in our entire region. In fact, I can't only think of a handful in the states of Georgia and Alabama and Mississippi. Now I can name numerous small breeders who raise a couple horses a year and show and trail ride and treat their horses like their own children. So, please, please, please explain to me where all these big, bad farms are in the southeast as they need to join their local regions and help us promote these animals.

[Monty]

Don't know if I dare jump in here - but I will put my two cents in here - "pun intended" ;-)
I have #5 Cull - with a caveat - between the time gal that went to college ,and me buying Monty,a "dude" had Monty for a year - he had to be retrained ! The guy was suppose to work with the trainer and barn - but never did - he cowboyed him!
But, we just took him back to the basics and a lot of ground work later he does flat walk ( I was told he never did the - by his original trainer) - he does follow voice commands of slow, whoa ,walk! Lots of time - again from the ground !
And he is much more relaxed - he suddenly realized - we can work together and have fun!
I did my homework and audited a number of clinics ( and still go when they sound interesting),and asked lots of questions and went to shows - and asked questions here !
I wanted to make sure I didn't mess up my horses - and I am glad I did it - I was old school neck reiner - had no idea about the "proper" cues or direct reining ,etc., once we worked those out - things went a lot better .
I do feel sorry for people that get a horse and have a problem - I have been very lucky with the 2 Pasos I have/had - but then , they "found me" - I didn't go looking ;-)
I got Venus free ( messy divorce) and Monty for $550 - because the "dude" ( who I have found out since - was the ONLY person ever bucked off Monty ),was scared of him!
JMHO - but "cull" is just a generic term - I am use to being around horse and dairy farms :roll:

[Minouri]

I learned a new word today. Cull. Am I the only one who didn't know what it was? :shock:

[Heidi]

So in my reading this morning I am learning that the SOUTHEAST is where the problem is because we are where all the big/bad irresponsible show breeders are.
So this doesn't turn into another p*ssing match...
I'd wager to say that SouthEast was mentioned as the regional or geographical area because of the numbers of our Pasos, that is where they are concentrated.
I also noticed you neglected to mention Florida when you were listing states...when I think of Paso Finos and showing, I think of Florida and the horses radiating out across the country from that location. Largest concentration in FL and spreading out across the country in widening ripples but lessening numbers.

[Cindy]

Well, if that is what had been said, I would not argue with THAT statement. Unfortunately, that is not what was actually said. What was actually said is that this is where all the big breeder/show farms are who irresponsibly breed too many horses and then have to dump their screwed up show rejects on the rest of the world.

[NikiGA]

Thanks for all those stories, Cindy. Very good thread!

Although I wasn't there, I understand several registered, healthy, well-trained trail paso finos just sold at a horse auction in Ocala this afternoon for $400 each. They were ridden for the audience and from what I heard, no problems and no vices. Don't know if they were geldings or not, but Spud Maulsby bought several for resale.

Now where can you breed, raise, and train a registered paso and then sell for such a paltry amount? These weren't show culls, but good trail horses that I am sure will sell in no time for $1,500 or $2,000.

[Cathy]

You are very welcome, Cathy. Why don't you tell us the story of your "show cull". :twisted:
I'm not sure which one so I'll just guess that it might be Tsar. I never intended to show him. I love to trail ride and camp. I thought Iwould try my hand at Endurance riding with Tsar. He was awesome! I marveled at how sure footed he was! In 2003 he was Endurance Paso Fino of the year and made the COVER of Endurance News! I would never call him a cull! He beat many an Arabian at their sport and we had a blast doing it!

[motorgypsy]

One thing I wanted to mention is what we think are one of the most serious errors new owners of paso fino horses make - OVER CUEING!! A brand new rider actually has a better chance with a new paso fino than a more experienced rider because they tend to listen to instructions better. We really didn't have a lot of instructions with our first paso fino and she was a spookhead but I did over cue her because all I'd ever ridden other than the hot little hard headed hackney/shetland cross 3 year old ponies that threw me off every day was rental horses and all my friends' dead broke QH's. I never really knew a horse could be so responsive. I had tons of years of riding instruction and lessons. They were all pretty useless. I was a terrible rider and knew it. But - I learned though - very quickly!!! And this is one reason paso finos get a bad rep - because they are so responsive it frightens people who aren't used to it until they get used to it. Then they're hooked for sure on this wonderul breed.

[Monty]

Well. said MG/K - I knew they were ridden differently "because" of the old Paso site and discussions on the BB and chat !
So, I did what I could to learn to ride Pasos properly!
Too many people think they learned the "right" way to ride, and don't do their homework or want to admit they are the problem ,not the horse :roll:
I was a newbie and learned from everyone else's experiences ,good and bad !

[motorgypsy]

You do and you don't ride them differently. A good rider who knows how to read a horse will have no problems riding a paso fino but most riders don't know how to read a horse. You ride the same balanced seat you ride any other horse with despite the fact that people will tell you to ride the "waterski" seat but you sure don't use the intensity of cues you use on most horses. You'd better start with the slightest possible cue to see how the paso fino reacts before you go using spurs and kicking and lots of leg. And another thing I wish we had known was how sensitive they are to your emotional state. You have to stay relaxed and use very subtle cues so they become confidant that you are "worthy" of them! There are plenty of horses in other breeds the same way and new riders have the same problems with them that we had with our first paso fino. All those heavy cues get them all hypered up and nervous. We learned this the hard way but it would have been a lot easier on us to have known it when we began with them. Oh well!!

[cowboy ed]

cull, a noun, meaning, "something picked out as substandard"

ok, substandard, "falling short of a legally required or generally accepted standard"

i went over to my cousin's farm the other day. they have been loading watermelons for the last few weeks.
he told me to come over and get some watermelons to eat. we got them out of the "cull" wagon. on the outside, the watermelons didnt really look as good as the ones going to market, maybe an odd shape here and there, too small, too large, maybe a spot on the melon where a crow pecked on it, but guess what? all the ones i got were ripe and sweet and tasted like a watermelon should! put a smile on my face and had juice dripping off my elbow.

cull is not a bad word.

i got a show cull paso fino gelding. i am not telling the whole story because it would take too long. oh, he had the breeding! champion blood lines top and bottom! he just didnt quite have the gait, didnt quite have the disposition for it. in my opinion, his training wasnt the best either. he was sold as a trail horse, but he wasnt a trail horse, because he was scared of too much stuff that a trail horse shouldnt have been.
he is a trail horse now. in fact, he is a heck of a trail horse. it took him a while to get used to it. he needed time and patience and a different set of hands doing different things with him.

[motorgypsy]

I'm kind of thinking that if you don't have patience paso finos might not be your cup of tea???? A lot of them do expect you to prove your "worthiness" before they become your partner.

[cowboy ed]

oh, that goes for horses in general. aside from their special gait, they are just horses. i train them the same way i do any other horse, other than excercises that are strictly related to gait.

[Pasogirlz]

I'm kind of thinking that if you don't have patience paso finos might not be your cup of tea???? A lot of them do expect you to prove your "worthiness" before they become your partner.

ditto that MG. ;-) They do require you to bond w/them...and sometimes it can be tedious....but extremely rewarding in the end.

[appyday]

I agree with with Carol said about my area..personally I have never seen a "show barn" I sent Bubba to a paso judge/trainer but never went to his house...Bubba was gone 120 days..told him to get him where I wanted him with head set and then trail ride him..he did a great job...

I did shop a long time before I got Vence...looked at lots of geldings and only a few studs.

I have only been to one Paso show Harrisburg 2 yrs ago..did not have pasos then..I only saw them in the isle way headed to the ring I did not have time to see them in classes as I was showing too and was busy..

I have seen videos of lip flapping pasos and I really dont want a hot basket case..

I have to agree with MG there are not many of my friends that can ride Vence...as Dick said..he looks easy to ride but "THATS ALOT OF HORSE" Janet tried to ride him in the ring a few weeks ago and I had to tell her to get off..he was out of control and she could not stop him so she was turning him into fences and into the round pen..I dont have that with him..she normally rides english so she had leg on him..went forward and leg back and on him...he went..and went and the more she hunched over the faster he went...

Then Jen got on him (she rides Roger for me now) and she is a trainer for WP but she watched Janet and learned got on Vence and walked him and collected him and gaited slowly and she kept leg near him but not on him and he looked beautiful with her..but almost killed Janet...lol

[motorgypsy]

Shelley you're talking about fino lip. It is funny but quite common even in very laid back paso finos. Chinook flaps her lip but only when she's bored - not when you're riding her and she shakes her head up and down and REALLY flaps those lips. It's hilarious!

[appyday]

Well I have seen a few QH and Apps with fino lip they are usually neurotic idiots that have been crucified..

[motorgypsy]

Not at all true with paso finos. Some of the most mellow, best gaited, most sensible trail trained paso finos I know do the fino lip thing. Kind of like chewing gum for horses maybe?? It may be the spoon and rollers on the bit that encourages it. Now they do just flap the lower lip up and down and slobber some but you can look at them and see that they are not in the least anxious and are paying attention to what is going on around them. Like I said - like chewing gum. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[TrueStepPaso]

I wonder if a major part of the problem is that new riders have not had time to BOND with their PF, as that seems to be a VERY important factor with this breed.
Once you have their trust and they have confidence in you, I think they will do anything for you. But not before they trust you.


One of the best things written so far.......I'm sorry, but I am POSITIVE about this statement. Its very true for hot horses, "problem" horse, whatever.
There are no problem horses, only problem riders.
One of the best books ever written goes by this title, and it was written thirty years ago. I haven't finished reading this entire thread yet, but I can't believe people honestly think a horse doesn't like to trail ride......riiiiight, and my dog would rather be in my apartment for its entire life, too.
Some things take years, not months.

[lisa l aka marci]

I have seen videos of lip flapping pasos and I really dont want a hot basket case..


I guess thisis slightly off on a tangent......my mare Lucy flaps her lip - but I learned she does that when she is enjoying herself.....although she is full of Brio.......former Performance horse turned broodmare turned 'cull' (too much horse for her owner!)......turned trail horse/broodmare/companion for the past 18 years!

[TrueStepPaso]

Okay, I've finished reading.....first off, I like that Cindy balanced the "scale" for potential Paso buyers. I'd also like to agree with her opinion being "sometimes its the BUYER"....I can't tell you how many times I have rolled my eyes at the idiots that buy a thousand pound animal they know nothing about. Rolling my eyes is my recent reaction, because why expend more energy on something you have no control over.
There are more "backyard culls" than "show" by far. And they come in every flavor. These are from the idiots Cindy, and others (i'm sure) have come across.....they blame it on the horse, sell it, get another, blame it on that one, sell it, get another....these ignorant DBs just keep churning out the cooked horses in every direction. When its really...them. Its never the horse....horses aren't born thinking, "Let me at 'em, I can't wait to be a jerk to a human....my grandfather was a real jerk, so now I have an excuse.."
Horses don't slam your knee into a tree because they hate being a trail horse, or they aren't "special" enough to realize your body extends beyond their body/comprehension, its because you didn't pre-cue them to quickly side pass a few steps....or never taught them to side pass at all. The horses people own are a direct reflection on them.
Maybe I'm getting off track here, but I think the negative energy Cindy may be seeing here is just an excuse for human shortcomings.....its too bad the breed got blamed.

[Camilla]

Hallelujah Barb and Cindy and Kyle!!
In full agreement with you all. I think 9 times out of 10 it is the people with the problem. I'll usually take a "show cull" anyday over a "backyard cull".
I've been selling horses only for a few years, but I can't believe the things I've seen/heard in that time. People want to go out and buy a deadbroke horse for deadcheap and they often have no business owning a horse at all - absolutely no experience and no clue. I am often telling folks to go away and take lessons for a year or more and then see if they still want to own. And I wonder how so many people can be getting stuck with 'basketcase' horses... did you not try them out? On the trail? Several times hopefully? Usually when I sell a horse, they can put it on hold for as long as they like, come and ride as much as they like, and have as many free lessons as it takes for horse and rider to be happy. i don't want to feel crappy because the match is no good... and I would suggest that if you are dealing with a seller unwilling to offer something at least a little like that and you are not an experienced horse owner/trainer... then look somewhere else. It is caveat emptor for sure... if you are not capable of dealing with a problem in your horse, then keep looking. Most of the 'problems' I see in people's horses (at clinics for instance) are coming from the rider anyway. Sorry to rant, but like Cindy I love these horses, and I don't like seeing them blamed for poor training and poor riding and bad horse-people matches.
Finally, I have got to wholeheartedly disagree with the negative spin on the 'lip-flap'. That is definitely a happy thing in my experience. I have trained 2 horses with the lip flap... they have never been shown or pushed and they are both great trail/pleasure horses. When they are going along doing their thing, the lip starts to flap like they are tapping their fingers to the beat. Was on a big huge trail ride with a couple happy lip flappers this weekend - both awesome horses who were just happy and flapping. It's just a habit, and I think often a habit of horses that dig their rhythm and are serious about doing their thing.
Happy trails everyone! :D

People want to go out and buy a deadbroke horse for deadcheap and they often have no business owning a horse at all - absolutely no experience and no clue.

Buyers call wanting a deadbroke trail horse for almost nothing, but then they mention they just might want to show down the road. I had one family come to look at a trail horse and both the son and father rode him. This gelding had been in the pasture for months and pulled out and tacked and rode just fine. Then the kid starts telling his dad to collect him up, which the father tried to do. When HE didn't know how to ride, the horse went out of gait and he tried telling me the horse couldn't collect or gait. What he didn't know was that the horse had almost 800 performance and fino show points and almost 100 youth show points (in Florida shows) and is a sweet son of Capuchino. It wasn't the horse, it was the rider that was incompetant. Rather than argue, I let them go back to the previous farm and hope they purchased their "trail horse" from them. Why even bother trying to sell to someone so clueless and then have them dissatisfied and complaining to everyone about how you sold them a worthless non-gaiting paso.

The other thing people try to do is go trail riding for free when they have no place to keep a horse and no intention of ever buying one in the first place. Can't tell you the number of times a couple or family call wanting to come test ride horses, not one at a time, but how about bringing a couple out for them to see if they bond. Reminds me of the old adage about why buy a cow when the milk is free. Free lessons? I don't know where you live, but in Florida the insurance to cover giving lessons on your farm is pretty high, so I suggest Alex's riding instructor. I also offer to take my horses over to his farm for them to test ride at no charge for hauling. He gets to ride the horse himself and then they get to ride. They also get to compare my horse against the horses at the school so they can see if my horse is what they expect before they buy.

[TrueStepPaso]

Why even bother trying to sell to someone so clueless and then have them dissatisfied and complaining to everyone about how you sold them a worthless non-gaiting paso.


Right on.

I won't take clients (for trimming) that won't keep a schedule, because why bother trimming their horse when two months down the road, the horses hooves are a mess and someone asks, "Geez, who trims your horses hooves?".....do you honestly think a person like this is going to admit, "Well, truth is, I'm lazy about caring for my animals, so its not the trimmers fault at all." Riiiiight, that'll happen. The owner instead says, "Oh, I know, they chip like an SOB...yeah, my trimmer is________(insert my name here :roll: )."
No thanks. I'm not slappin my name on a trim that a client will let go to pot, and then let ME take the fall for it :shock:

[Fuego]

I have to agree with MG there are not many of my friends that can ride Vence...as Richard said..he looks easy to ride but "THATS ALOT OF HORSE" Janet tried to ride him in the ring a few weeks ago and I had to tell her to get off..he was out of control and she could not stop him so she was turning him into fences and into the round pen..I dont have that with him..she normally rides english so she had leg on him..went forward and leg back and on him...he went..and went and the more she hunched over the faster he went...

************************************************** ********

Haven ridden Vence, I wouldn't argue that he is A LOT of horse. But I did find him very easy to ride. If I can drop the reins and safely talk on my cell phone while the the horse plods along, I call that an easy to ride horse, lol. ( I'd NEVER try that on my own Paso). But that problem is quite common. I see that as an ignorance problem with the rider, not a problem with the horse. Vence was doing exactly what he was told to do, and responding, even if the rider didn't realize she was telling him to do it.

I've found overcueing a Paso to be quite common by people not accustomed to a Paso. Every Paso I've ridden has been light , sensetive, and very responsive. 'Heavy' cues are just not neccessary. I also train with leg cues, but every Paso I've trained needed much less of a cue then most other horses I've ridden/trained.

Personally, I think I like the responsiveness more about the Pasos then I do their gait. For me, there's no 'work' involved in riding a Paso. Just "thnking" about using a leg cue is often enough to get a response, lol.

Like Ed, I train the Paso like any other horse, but still take the time to explain to a " newbie" how to ride a Paso. ( as in only the very lightest cues are neccessary, other then that , just SIT there and enjoy the ride)
When selling a young paso gelding that ANYONE could ride safely, the 'mom' rode and him and had no problems. But when her daughter ( who had been taking English ridding lessons got on him and 'grabbed hold' of him with her knees and legs, of course he fired up and didn't walk off nicely ( because that's what he understood the rider to be telling him).
Once I explained to the young girl to relax her legs, she had no problems, and the horse did everything and anything she asked.

My gelding is by NO MEANS a beginners horse that 'anybody' can ride safely. But I have given test rides on him successfully, and as long as the riders listen to my instructions ( in a contolled enviroment), they have a wonderful ride. ( one of those test riders now has his own Paso and another is looking for her first Paso). But I am carefull and selective on who I let ride my Paso, for the simple reason if they aren't willing to listen to my instructions, they could easily end up hurt from overcueing him. Even an experienced Paso rider has to be careful with him on ANY type of cue.

I watch dressage riders cueing for every step their horses take and think to myself "that looks like way too much work" just to ride a horse :-? Pasos have me spoiled for life with their effortless responsiveness.

[Fino1]

Can't agree more with Fuego's recount of using his sensitive Paso for demo rides as I used to do the same thing albeit adding one more element.

I trained my horses to heel and stop/turn so when newbies rode all they had to be concerned with was balance and just 'very' light contact on the bit.
I did get one heck of workout tho as I did a corto/jog along side the horses's head.

Worked great and once they were comfortable, I let them ride alone and most commented on how easy they were to controll....so sensitive.

This has been a great thread...........thanks, Cindy!

Judy

ps........see ya at the Gold Cup.

[Fuego]

Since my spazzoid is well trained on a longe line ( will even work at liberty off of voice and hand cues), I would keep the 'test riders' on the longe line until I felt they were comfortable and understood how very little they needed to do to get a response from him and not to over react(over correct) to a reaction from the horse that may make the rider uncomfortable/scared.

It must say something about the breed when even a "crazy, spazzy, poor example of a Paso" can convert people to the breed :D

[Terri]

It is an interesting thread. And I don't think we will solve the question as to wether show "culls" make good trail horses, because the anwers is yes and no. Some make wonderful trail/backyard horses and some dont'. Depends on a number of things, not the least of which is matching the right buyer to the right horse. (this it true of all breeds btw, imo) A high brio ex show horse might be just the right ticket for one rider and a terror to his next door neighbor. An experienced horseman with plenty of patience will turn him into a realiable wonderful companion. A timid scared owner will turn him into a horse "with issues" that gets passed around.
My own story is that I bought a "show cull". Rio was trained for the show ring and has all the right breeding (he is a grandson of El Pastor). He had 7 months of excellent training at a show barn. But poor Rio had neither the temperment or tight gait for the show ring. So he was sold to a novice rider as a 3 yr old trail horse. It was a very poor match. She became afraid of him and I suspect he thought she was pretty scary too. Within 4 months she sold him to me. I have owned him for 2 years now and wouldn't sell him for anything. He is the sweetest, most reliable horse I know. Just rode him in the ring bareback and had a blast. He will ride any trail, has enough brio to be fun, but a great whoa when I need it. I rarely use a bit and OH MY is he pretty. He is everything in a horse I've always dreamed of owning, but never thought I would.
So yes, show culls can turn into the right horse. BUT, a good match is everything so buyers should proceed with caution and know their own limitations and try to accurately judge the horse's potential. AND a seller needs to accurately represent the horse. Just because they can ride the speed demon on the trail and have fun, it doesn't mean the buyer standing in front of them will be able to handle him. And you are doing a disservice to the horse by selling him to a buyer you hope will grow into him.

[CarolU]

Very well said Terri. I don't think anyone ever said that many/most "culls" can't be good horses, in fact many are very well trained, just not tight or fast enough for the blue ribbons. And most horses that don't gait a perfect 4-beat gait, can still make great family and trail horses with the right training.

There is one thing that I find keeps popping up in this thread, and that is the observation that Pasos ARE different then other breeds. Yes, you use the same training methods on them, but the breed is very sensitive and where you might need a kick with another breed, the 'thought' is frequently enough cue with many Pasos.

I have also experienced the classic English rider having problems on a very otherwise laid-back Paso Fino. It took me a lot of questions to determine that she was cuing him with each stride to go forward - and then pulling back when he did. She had gotten him quite upset. Now my first time rider instructions are something like this:

Me: Do NOT kick the horse.
Rider: Why not?
Me: They don't like it.
Rider: Then HOW do you get them to go?
Me" THAT is not the 'problem'.

They are normally quite surprised to find that all you have to do to go faster is sit up straighter, all you have to do to turn is LOOK in that direction, and that the horses LOVE to go, go, and go some more. Very different for those only used to 'more whoa then go' horses.

[appyday]

I don't own a horse you kick..I do not find "kick" in my riding style...Unless someone is being punished. Squeeze is more like it...calf pressure..NO KICK

well we come to a point.... no matter how bad a show cull is it still ends up being a trail horse and then the others in a yellow bag called Pedigree :lol:

[CarolU]

well we come to a point.... no matter how bad a show cull is it still ends up being a trail horse and then the others in a yellow bag called Pedigree :lol:

Well Nito, there we'll disagree. Because to me there are "Trail Horses" and then there are horses that are riden on trails that are not particularly good, safe, or sound at it. Just as for you there are "Show Horses" and horses that are riden in arenas that aren't really good enough for showing.

What you have said though is exactly the mind set why Paso Finos will never catch on with serious trail riders, and why all the marketing in the world won't make it so. As long as you call any 'junk' Paso, a "trail horse," you will never market them in a very competitive market. We will indeed GIVE this market to Rockies and other breeds.

well Carol ...

Its still a horse that goes on trails and doesnt do anything else so in that case its still a trail horse. No horse is perfect and when you meet that perfect trail horse with out one little issue let me know, I would love to meet it.

The other thing about the show horse - Its still a show horses which somedays will be better than others and of course is better than that cull out there.

So much to say but wouldn't want to break someone's heart :-?

[Pam M]

You said it Earl. I have NO doubt that any decent rider can handle my Pia just fine. She's BY FAR easier to ride than my very calm QHX, who will dump you if you make a mistake! But I do confess that she scares people who try to handle her on the ground to the extent that I've not found anyone who will ride her yet. But we're still working on it. This is one "show cull" that just might turn out to be an ambassador for "crazy" horses! I've got 3 people around her now that are learning her "ways" and planning to ride her sooner or later.

[TrueStepPaso]

An experienced horseman with plenty of patience will turn him into a realiable wonderful companion. A timid scared owner will turn him into a horse "with issues" that gets passed around.

Well put, T...........again, its the rider, not the horse/breed.

[Jaci]

I have been reading the posts here and have a question... How often have any of you seen a person go to a barn that they knew bred for hot horses and bought a horse off of its pedigree and then *****ed about the horse and the trainer and the breeder?

Or bought a horse that was good blooded but was cheap and never asked why is this horse cheap??? They are trying to get a deal and when it doesn't work out they blame everyone but themselves.

Now it is a lot easier to blame the other guy but it sure doesn't keep us from making the same mistakes over and over... lol

Jaci

[CarolU]

Jaci, I don't think the average first-time buyer knows what the difference is between a hot horse breeder and pleasure horse breeder. We certainly do not put out signs saying what type of Paso we're breeding. I can't count how many people I have met who bought a horse that was too much for them (Earl is a very typical example, but this BB has had dozens over the years) who were never warned that it was too much horse for them, nor did the seller refuse the sale (I have known sellers who would not sell an innapropriate horse to new owners, but have seen a lot more who could care less). Most don't blame the barn or the trainer, they blame the breed. It is part of how Paso Finos have garnered a very bad reputation as a "Hot" horse.

Yes, there ARE very high brio (and also extremely senstive) horses that should not be sold to anyone that isn't fully aware of what they are buying. THere are many Paso Fino ads that say "for experienced riders only" for a good reason. The breed is NOT for everyone, even the average Paso Fino is too impulsive for people who are used to 'kick start' horses. And certain lines are very hot or very sensitive and innapropriate for most people, especially those who believe force is the way to 'break' a horse.

I don't doubt that many ex-show horses CAN be good trail horses...but unless they recieved appropriate training in the beginning, they have to be sold to someone willing to retrain them to be trail horses. I have seen far more horses sold as trail horses that can't stand to be mounted, can't do a flat walk, can't gait on a loose rein, and can't stand for slicker or rain jacket donning/removal, then I have seen who could.

[Jaci]

[quote="CarolU"]Jaci, I don't think the average first-time buyer knows what the difference is between a hot horse breeder and pleasure horse breeder. We certainly do not put out signs saying what type of Paso we're breeding. It is part of how Paso Finos have garnered a very bad reputation as a "Hot" horse. quote]

Carol, I am not sure that I agree with that statement... If I go to a breeder and they have a room full of show ribbons and they show me horse after horse that is jumping all over the place and they are bragging about how this horse or that horse won this championship or that championship then isnt' that person really telling me what style or kind of horse they are breeding???

Isn't it my responsibility to go into the process with some edcuation?

If you ask the persone trying to sell the horse if they trail ride and they answer that they dont' then how can you expect them to know what makes a good trail horse?

As far a Paso fino being hot horses they are...

I live in Arab country. Arabs are hot and the arab breeders dont' make any bones about that fact. People that don't want a hot arab end up buying a dull, toe dragging quarter type horse... or they buy a put your leg on it until you eyes pop out of your head warm blood.

I will agree with you that there are bad trainers out there and much like the arabs the Pasos don't seem to forget or forgive like some other breeds.

Before AI people used to go and look at the stallions. You could see the temperment and the conformation and the attitude of the horse. You talked to the owner and listened to them tell you the good and the bad about the horse... Maybe we need to get back to that...

If a bunch of people think that the current paso should be less sensitive, and I'm not saying that it shouldn't, then you need to get together and form a group, network like we used to in the past and find less sensitive good minded horses to breed to...

Cindy that posts on this board has a little stallion named Zapato Bravo that is the coolest horse... If I remember right he used to give demo rides after he came out of his class.

I have gone camping with Johnnie Lanier and Vickie McQuinn in Yosemitie and outside of San Francisco with horses. Johnnie took a show mare. That mare stood on a picket line at night and rode the trails for a week and then was taken to the Mundial in Florida.

One other point is that the person looking to buy a Paso usually goes to shows to see the breed or looks at magazines. Who is at the shows and who advertises? People go where they know to go...

If a group that had great trail/ pleasure horses got together and advertised then people just might come to them.

Sorry so long and Carol, I really think we are on the same side of the fence.

Jaci

[motorgypsy]

Jaci, sadly Zapata Bravo is deceased - I think from inoperable colic. But his progeny live on as we have three of them. And they are amazing and all very different even though two are full sisters and the third is the foal of the full sister of the dam of the other two. He must have been quite a boy to sire such interesting daughters!!

By the way we do everything with them from shows to hunter pace to cowboy mounted shooting to parades to trail rides to LD endurance rides. Horses for all seasons!!!

[Cathy]

I've got one of Zapata's colts also. He's a wonderful trail horse. I was so fortunate to have Cindy train him. I bought him as a 3 year old pleasure stallion at the Nationals in "99". Look for his little brother Czar at Nationals next year. I believe he is the last colt sired by Zapata.

[CarolU]

Jaci, I do agree that a buyer should educate themselves prior to buying any horse, honestly evaluate their riding abilities, and buy a horse that suits their ability.

So in their quest for education, we send them to a Paso Fino farm to learn about the breed. Even on this board we tell people to find someone who knows the breed to go shopping, and we hand people the Farm Directory or the PFHA.ORG site to find farms in their area.

They go to the farms to learn and are trusting that farm owner to not over-horse them. Many owners are very good and very honest (Johnny and Vickie are excellent examples), but many aren't. Even on this thread, the attitude of many is that if a horse is ridden on a trail it can be sold as a trail horse. And I'm sure that first time owner rides that horse around that farm and it is nice and quiet and controllable. Remember that the horse is home, and that the trainer has usually just gotten off the horse demo-ing it. But they buy the horse, take it home, and find that because they don't ride the horse daily, it is a lot more horse then they can handle.

Do you know how many horses there are sold with this same scenario? I would say that over the course of a year I get offered 3-5 such horses FREE. I was offered one yesterday. A horse that has indeed been riden a lot on trails, is fine with 'spooky' things, but has no flat walk, won't stand for mounting, and has so much go-go-go it gaits in place and is sweaty and frothy within five minutes. No, not all of them come from show barns (although this mare did), especially out here, there are some big breeders, but only a few show and fewer still have professional trainers. There are a few who take good care of first-time buyers and help them learn the breed and their new horse, but many don't. The woman in Alaska is good example, she specifically stated she wanted a trail horse, and was told the horse was.

Read through the posts in the Training Forum, and there are some in the Newbie Forum. You'll read many similar stories. I have a Parelli/Paso Fino forum. I can't tell you how many people have 'project horses' they are desensitizing and training to relax after pretty rough/rushed early training. I really DO WISH all PF trainers were like Cindy, Johnny, Vickie, etc., and take the time to do a good job, but I also see trainers who can put a barely 3-year-old fully bitted and collected in a schooling class.

[Jaci]

So in their quest for education, we send them to a Paso Fino farm to learn about the breed. Even on this board we tell people to find someone who knows the breed to go shopping, and we hand people the Farm Directory or the PFHA.ORG site to find farms in their area.


Carol, maybe that is the part of the problem... Isn't the farm directory full of mostly farms whose main source of income is from the show horses that they sell and train?

This isn't a new problem; it is a multifacated problem that needs to be addressed on all levels before it goes away, if it ever does. Part of the problem is just plain economics.

I am going to take the liberty of doing some generalizing here, so please forgive me if I step on anyones toes.

The breeders that haven't gone into the business for just a tax write-off are trying to make a living at it. And, unfortunately the horses that sell for the most money are the show horses or potiental show horses. (This is pretty much industry standard and not just with Paso Fino) So the farm owners breed and cater to what brings in the most about of money. (We have all heard how it cost the same abount of money to feed a good horse as a bad one.)

Now the pleasure/ trail person arrives and states that they aren't looking for a show horse they just want a trail/pleasure horse. They want it bomb proof and they are willing to pay a whole $2500.00 for it and can they make payments. And they agree that it may need some more training but they can only afford 2 weeks... and can their uncle Fred come out and work the horse when the trainer isn't???

If the person that was looking for a trail horse/pleasure horse/ pet/horse was willing to pay what a well trained pleasure horse should go for then I think you would see more well trained pleasure horses being sold.

Carol, I am no better than anyone else. I want the best I can get and I want it for no money... Having someone pay me to take the horse would be perfect. So far that hasn't happened but...

I need to add here that the crappy breeder and/ or trainer is going to do crappy stuff no matter what because they have chosen to be a crappy person that does crappy stuff...

The breed, or people within the breed need to create a market where pleasure horses are valuable. Other breeds have done it through marketing and other creative means. We need to do it as well.

Jaci